Players & Groups Group stage is 16 player Swiss format (2 groups for EU, 1 group for AM and Asia) Playoffs are single elimination (16 players for EU, 8 players for AM and Asia)
EU went exactly as I thought except Showtime - Wayne, especially with Showtimes excellent results the last few weeks. Anyone know how the games played out?
On May 03 2023 04:20 Kreuger wrote: EU went exactly as I thought except Showtime - Wayne, especially with Showtimes excellent results the last few weeks. Anyone know how the games played out?
In Game 1 Wayne went heavy Mutas, Showtime saw the spire building but didn't click on it, and Wayne committed heavily to Mutas and Showtime didn't ever really get enough Phoenix. Game 2 Wayne rushed hive and lurker upgrades and between abducts/ling surrounds of a few disruptors managed to run Showtime over.
On May 03 2023 04:20 Kreuger wrote: EU went exactly as I thought except Showtime - Wayne, especially with Showtimes excellent results the last few weeks. Anyone know how the games played out?
In Game 1 Wayne went heavy Mutas, Showtime saw the spire building but didn't click on it, and Wayne committed heavily to Mutas and Showtime didn't ever really get enough Phoenix. Game 2 Wayne rushed hive and lurker upgrades and between abducts/ling surrounds of a few disruptors managed to run Showtime over.
Thanks for the answer, still think Showtime will make it though, but he sure does make it harder on himself
Wow super late thread. Also I'm shocked that ESL isn't even running the stream. Rotti just said it was Wardii running the stream today, the intros, outros, everything. Tomorrow is going to be Beomulf.
On May 03 2023 05:17 geokilla wrote: Wow super late thread. Also I'm shocked that ESL isn't even running the stream. Rotti just said it was Wardii running the stream today, the intros, outros, everything. Tomorrow is going to be Beomulf.
Damn, I guess the budget cuts are coming in from every direction.
To be fair, given how the regionals were run during the EPT era, and how proficient the creators in the scene are at online event production, the difference probably won't be too noticeable.
Vanya/Rattata/Wayne is absolutly on fire right now Imagine Spirit vs Showtime in next round. His two victims reals feel like they don t belong in the "Mid" category
On May 08 2023 04:17 tigera6 wrote: MaxPax 4-gates Blink is too good, and make me hate the build even more.
More not the best response from Clem, MaxPax has much less success doing the same thing against HeroMarine for example. Blink is a good build but not as ubiquitous as it appears
How is NA region is so bad compared to EU and KR in terms of the quality of games and player skill? Do NA players not watch the other region's tournaments? NA used to be comparable to EU. I never quite understood this. Is it due to the COVID lockdown?
So the best of the british intruders, the Oceania scene was so afraid about, that they were ranting about them for years just got eliminated by a bunch of chinese amateurs? I m glad at least Meomaika is doing fine. The rest of the 'scene' in that region looks completly dead now. I honestly didn t expect that China would completly dominate the new Asia region as hard as they do, but it looks like that Asia is going to consist of Meomaika, Has, Nice and then only Chinese players
On May 09 2023 22:37 dbRic1203 wrote: So the best of the british intruders, the Oceania scene was so afraid about, that they were ranting about them for years just got eliminated by a bunch of chinese amateurs?
Hellraiser was doing pretty well until those Widow Mine shots. It's nice seeing someone going for double Forge instead of rushing for splash damage.
EDIT:
He's doing a good job of only losing Chargelots in these middle-of-the-map engagements. Really important.
EDIT2:
Hellraiser almost won it with his 3/3 push. It looked pretty dicey for Clem, but Hellraiser lost the momentum after Clem caught up in upgrades. The Disruptor shots just weren't there in the end. Good game though.
On May 08 2023 06:08 geokilla wrote: How is NA region is so bad compared to EU and KR in terms of the quality of games and player skill? Do NA players not watch the other region's tournaments? NA used to be comparable to EU. I never quite understood this. Is it due to the COVID lockdown?
I hope you watched Mana vs GungFuBanda It might give you comfort that there are lots of Mid Tier EU players that are also capable of playing FULL NA clown fiesta with throws and counter throws.
On May 08 2023 06:08 geokilla wrote: How is NA region is so bad compared to EU and KR in terms of the quality of games and player skill? Do NA players not watch the other region's tournaments? NA used to be comparable to EU. I never quite understood this. Is it due to the COVID lockdown?
I hope you watched Mana vs GungFuBanda It might give you comfort that there are lots of Mid Tier EU players that are also capable of playing FULL NA clown fiesta with throws and counter throws.
On May 11 2023 11:43 tigera6 wrote: 12k mineral bank and not trying to put up 40 more spores is criminal.
Nina seemed to have decided that she couldn't win unless Ukko attacked, and Ukko seemed to have decided that he couldn't win unless Nina attacked. More static defence wouldn't have forced a result.
Something is just wrong with the current Swiss format, Showtime got beaten by Wayne in round 1 but got into the next stage with relatively easy win against mid-pack players, the same with Spirit. Meanwhile, Wayne beaten them both, and got "rewarded" with a match against Serral which was a close one, and then play against Harstem who has perfomed at high level so far. And now Wayne could be eliminated if he got cheese by a Protoss or Terran in the last round.
What's up with Astrea, he was looking like the #2 toss in the world at the end of 2022. I imagine he'll still advance to the playoffs but still. Hopefully he comes back strong.
On May 13 2023 03:49 tigera6 wrote: Something is just wrong with the current Swiss format, Showtime got beaten by Wayne in round 1 but got into the next stage with relatively easy win against mid-pack players, the same with Spirit. Meanwhile, Wayne beaten them both, and got "rewarded" with a match against Serral which was a close one, and then play against Harstem who has perfomed at high level so far. And now Wayne could be eliminated if he got cheese by a Protoss or Terran in the last round.
I can imagine there is no seeding in between rounds. When you are in the "2-0" tier, you play against another "2-0" player, no other rules apply.
On May 13 2023 03:49 tigera6 wrote: Something is just wrong with the current Swiss format, Showtime got beaten by Wayne in round 1 but got into the next stage with relatively easy win against mid-pack players, the same with Spirit. Meanwhile, Wayne beaten them both, and got "rewarded" with a match against Serral which was a close one, and then play against Harstem who has perfomed at high level so far. And now Wayne could be eliminated if he got cheese by a Protoss or Terran in the last round.
I can imagine there is no seeding in between rounds. When you are in the "2-0" tier, you play against another "2-0" player, no other rules apply.
Yeah that is the problem. There is no clear seeding or if there is one, ESL is not comunicating how it works. Wayne and MaxPax realy got the short end of the stick here, they had 10x harder pathes than many players that are allready in the playoffs
On May 13 2023 03:49 tigera6 wrote: Something is just wrong with the current Swiss format, Showtime got beaten by Wayne in round 1 but got into the next stage with relatively easy win against mid-pack players, the same with Spirit. Meanwhile, Wayne beaten them both, and got "rewarded" with a match against Serral which was a close one, and then play against Harstem who has perfomed at high level so far. And now Wayne could be eliminated if he got cheese by a Protoss or Terran in the last round.
I can imagine there is no seeding in between rounds. When you are in the "2-0" tier, you play against another "2-0" player, no other rules apply.
Yeah that is the problem. There is no clear seeding or if there is one, ESL is not comunicating how it works. Wayne and MaxPax realy got the short end of the stick here, they had 10x harder pathes than many players that are allready in the playoffs
Maxpax didn't really get a path that was significantly more difficult than people with a similar seed, but in the case of Wayne, it was most likely because his initial seeding was #14 in the group, which seems to be how they are arranging matches for the most part, except for situations in which there would be repeat match (Group B round 3 upper bracket seems to have been an exception to this rule).
On May 14 2023 20:43 Scarlett` wrote: rip SEA ANZ region
Yeah, last year's DH Atlanta qualifier, SEA got $17,950 split among 12 players. This year the whole region got a $1,600 split among 2 players. It's worse than the GSL prize pool contraction.
Someone needs to get one of the Murdochs addicted to SC2
On May 14 2023 20:43 Scarlett` wrote: rip SEA ANZ region
Yeah, last year's DH Atlanta qualifier, SEA got $17,950 split among 12 players. This year the whole region got a $1,600 split among 2 players. It's worse than the GSL prize pool contraction.
Someone needs to get one of the Murdochs addicted to SC2
Nah the Murdochs are busier playing cat and mouse with celebrities over phone hacking scandals that they can't even dedicate 15000 dollars to fund the Asia region (oh dear)
Joke aside, Meomaika and Ranger deserved better. But as for some of the other players, going into holidays the day of the qualifiers is a downright bad look (and sending only one player instead of doing their most to put on the numbers)
Serral being Serral and all, but Lambo wasnt very committed with his pressure, he either didnt cut drone early enough, or he just faking some pressure but actually droning behind it. Serral just got to do whatever he wanted as long as he has the vision on the map and get enough defense up in time.
Spirit playing like a god, a Spirit vs Serral final could be sick, though I think Maxpax will probably make the finals now... (plus Clem is good at winning EU, even if he hasn't looked at his best so far.)
MaxPax has a VERY good record against Spirit, so I think he should make the Final. Whether Clem can overcome Serral on the other side of the bracket is the question.
On May 21 2023 02:12 tigera6 wrote: MaxPax has a VERY good record against Spirit, so I think he should make the Final. Whether Clem can overcome Serral on the other side of the bracket is the question.
Clem the only thorn possibly stopping Serral (and very powerful one).
On May 21 2023 02:12 tigera6 wrote: MaxPax has a VERY good record against Spirit, so I think he should make the Final. Whether Clem can overcome Serral on the other side of the bracket is the question.
Clem the only thorn possibly stopping Serral (and very powerful one).
Would be very Clem to turn it up when he's playing Serral after scraping by against worse Zergs in the previous rounds.
On May 21 2023 02:12 tigera6 wrote: MaxPax has a VERY good record against Spirit, so I think he should make the Final. Whether Clem can overcome Serral on the other side of the bracket is the question.
Clem the only thorn possibly stopping Serral (and very powerful one).
Would be very Clem to turn it up when he's playing Serral after scraping by against worse Zergs in the previous rounds.
Its actually quite possible. Clem doesnt mix up his opening in TvZ against lesser Zerg players, and just rely on his mechanical skill to win. But he often mix it up against Serral, Reynor and get enough of a surprise to take some win.
Very BM by Reynor in Game3 - and I also wonder if it was justifiable as an auto-loss for that game - there could've been something in the rules about distracting or intimidating opponents. Considering how much was on the line - it was an auto-seed for 2023 Masters Summer it is extremely disrespectful.
On May 21 2023 15:24 Azzur wrote: Very BM by Reynor in Game3 - and I also wonder if it was justifiable as an auto-loss for that game - there could've been something in the rules about distracting or intimidating opponents. Considering how much was on the line - it was an auto-seed for 2023 Masters Summer it is extremely disrespectful.
BM but not DQ-level, otherwise at least publicly, Spirit would have directly raised the matter to the ESL referee (behind closed doors, who knows). On the contrary, provided the rules do not currently forbid it, given the stakes, not doing what he did would be the stupid thing to do. Plus if that contributed to possibly not playing to his best during the remainder of the series, he punished himself more than anything else.
Morals don't always pay bills, cold hard cash does.
On May 21 2023 15:24 Azzur wrote: Very BM by Reynor in Game3 - and I also wonder if it was justifiable as an auto-loss for that game - there could've been something in the rules about distracting or intimidating opponents. Considering how much was on the line - it was an auto-seed for 2023 Masters Summer it is extremely disrespectful.
BM but not DQ-level, otherwise at least publicly, Spirit would have directly raised the matter to the ESL referee (behind closed doors, who knows). On the contrary, provided the rules do not currently forbid it, given the stakes, not doing what he did would be the stupid thing to do. Plus if that contributed to possibly not playing to his best during the remainder of the series, he punished himself more than anything else.
Morals don't always pay bills, cold hard cash does.
How do you know it's not DQ level? Have a look at the ESL rules here: https://play.eslgaming.com/starcraft/masters/sc2/masters/esl-masters-summer-2023-playoffs-asia/rules/. There are rules that prevent unsporting behaviour such as intimidating your opponent. I believe Spirit would've had a reasonable case to argue for a forfeit (at least game3 forfeit) on the basis of what happened. I reckon it could've been an ugly situation if Spirit had lost the series and complained about Reynor's BM. ESL was lucky that Spirit won that series - I believe the referee should've intervened to stop the situation that occurred and potentially even forfeited game3.
On May 21 2023 15:24 Azzur wrote: Very BM by Reynor in Game3 - and I also wonder if it was justifiable as an auto-loss for that game - there could've been something in the rules about distracting or intimidating opponents. Considering how much was on the line - it was an auto-seed for 2023 Masters Summer it is extremely disrespectful.
BM but not DQ-level, otherwise at least publicly, Spirit would have directly raised the matter to the ESL referee (behind closed doors, who knows). On the contrary, provided the rules do not currently forbid it, given the stakes, not doing what he did would be the stupid thing to do. Plus if that contributed to possibly not playing to his best during the remainder of the series, he punished himself more than anything else.
Morals don't always pay bills, cold hard cash does.
Reading the said paragraph, unless there is a repeat behaviour during the whole series (or even in the past), there's likely not enough matter to ask for a DQ. Based on that, I can see your argument (and Reynor certainly didn't need to throw the odd bomb) but it is not a Naniwa-level type of crap. Mostly you, me and Reynor not having the same threshold of morality.
On May 21 2023 16:12 SmoKim wrote: What happened in g3 between Reynor and Spirit?
75 minutes game, with about the last 30-40 minutes having both army sitting across the screen and doesnt fight into each other, just sniping stuff here and there. Reynor then putting down some banter chat in game and Spirit reply, thats all.
On May 21 2023 16:12 SmoKim wrote: What happened in g3 between Reynor and Spirit?
75 minutes game, with about the last 30-40 minutes having both army sitting across the screen and doesnt fight into each other, just sniping stuff here and there. Reynor then putting down some banter chat in game and Spirit reply, thats all.
more specificially Reynor complained about Spirit's passive playstyle (While the one time Spirit had enough and went for it he lost a huge part of his army to mass fungal, so not really his fault). And before he gged he also typed a (very likely given the context) sarcastic "congrats".
Not really great sportsmanship imo considering Spirit was close to his career-best result but not DQ-worthy imo
I'd be curious how different what Reynor said is from the banter that normally happens in the lobby between games, which we as viewers rarely see unless casters call attention to it.
At the end of the day Reynor's comments were BM, but a bit of banter is fine for the scene as long as it doesn't cross a line. Marinelord's "tooled" comment was similarly if not more BM, but even that led to some good memes. Some esports go way too far in tolerating BM/general toxicity, but SC2 is at a fine place in that regard.
On May 21 2023 19:47 dysenterymd wrote: I'd be curious how different what Reynor said is from the banter that normally happens in the lobby between games, which we as viewers rarely see unless casters call attention to it.
At the end of the day Reynor's comments were BM, but a bit of banter is fine for the scene as long as it doesn't cross a line. Marinelord's "tooled" comment was similarly if not more BM, but even that led to some good memes.
While different in the sense it is not part of the EPT circuit, there was a case during World Team League weeks ago. The similarity is some user thinking that level of Bad Mannering is worth a DQ, when it has been ruled in another way (or non-ruled, yesterday).
In Reynor's case, BM but not reaching the DQ threshold, even Spirit was low key replying to the banter, which should indicate, no for Storming the Teacup.
EDIT : Forgot the MarineLord meme. How I laughed reading the tweet.
On May 21 2023 19:47 dysenterymd wrote: I'd be curious how different what Reynor said is from the banter that normally happens in the lobby between games, which we as viewers rarely see unless casters call attention to it.
At the end of the day Reynor's comments were BM, but a bit of banter is fine for the scene as long as it doesn't cross a line. Marinelord's "tooled" comment was similarly if not more BM, but even that led to some good memes.
While different in the sense it is not part of the EPT circuit, there was a case during World Team League weeks ago. The similarity is some user thinking that level of Bad Mannering is worth a DQ, when it has been ruled in another way (or non-ruled, yesterday).
In Reynor's case, BM but not reaching the DQ threshold, even Spirit was low key replying to the banter, which should indicate, no for Storming the Teacup.
EDIT : Forgot the MarineLord meme. How I laughed reading the tweet.
The short version is aggressive bantering in the chinese forums by a representative of team ABYDOS (ex-NV) and one from Starlight Twinkle. That degenerated to a point that a pointed comment was made about the supposedly dubious contracts from a team (Mystery Gaming) who played during the qualifiers of the event.
Afterwards when you know how the Chinese forums can sometimes be (cf, sometimes that would make the odd rancid Twitch chat look like paradise in comparison), etc etc. Skipping the details because no need to repeat it unless you really want all the details from the WTL organisers
Fast-forward you have a TL user who was pushing for Abydos to get banned from the event because the behaviour of the representative. Not long after, WTL organizers decided to keep said team on because it didn't involve the roster as a whole, and misunderstandings (there were plenty during the matter) can happen, the only thing that happened is the Abydos representative took a backseat from duties.
Regardless of how the organizer ruled it, back to the TL user, who judged good to still push the matter and even created a topic and a public poll. When some pointed to the user that should stop, nope, more and more noise until an admin likely had to step up and close (or delete ?) the topic down.
The short version is aggressive bantering in the chinese forums by a representative of team ABYDOS (ex-NV) and one from Starlight Twinkle. That degenerated to a point that a pointed comment was made about the supposedly dubious contracts from a team (Mystery Gaming) who played during the qualifiers of the event.
Afterwards when you know how the Chinese forums can sometimes be (cf, sometimes that would make the odd rancid Twitch chat look like paradise in comparison), etc etc. Skipping the details because no need to repeat it unless you really want all the details from the WTL organisers
Fast-forward you have a TL user who was pushing for Abydos to get banned from the event because the behaviour of the representative. Not long after, WTL organizers decided to keep said team on because it didn't involve the roster as a whole, and misunderstandings (there were plenty during the matter) can happen, the only thing that happened is the Abydos representative took a backseat from duties.
Regardless of how the organizer ruled it, back to the TL user, who judged good to still push the matter and even created a topic and a public poll. When some pointed to the user that should stop, nope, more and more noise until an admin likely had to step up and close (or delete ?) the topic down.
Reynor also demanded a pause after game 2 as a troll because Spirit often does that and he wanted to mock him. Just not a very good person I'm afraid.
My favourite fact about Reynor is that right after there was discourse on TL about whether zergs were winning because their race was strong or because the best players just happened to pick zerg, he switched to protoss for six months to show us all that it was just his skill talking, got zero good results and quietly went back to zerg. Good times.
On May 22 2023 00:07 Nebuchad wrote: Reynor also demanded a pause after game 2 as a troll because Spirit often does that and he wanted to mock him. Just not a very good person I'm afraid.
My favourite fact about Reynor is that right after there was discourse on TL about whether zergs were winning because their race was strong or because the best players just happened to pick zerg, he switched to protoss for six months to show us all that it was just his skill talking, got zero good results and quietly went back to zerg. Good times.
Reynor said in chat after he and Piotr (spirit) are very good friemds and would know it was bantering, I trust that over us random people on the internet who don't know any context.
Almost nothing in that second paragraph is accurate. He didn't *switch* to toss, at most for a few months switched between zvz and PvZ, or did random/toss in the weeklies. He didn't do it because of anything people on TL said but because he likes having fun and it was a pretty awesome thing to do. He was actually quite good and is arguably the best performing off race player in history, for a while people thought he had top 3 pvz. Of course he never won major tournaments with it but that was not his goal and that would be an absolutely insane accomplishment. And he still regularly plays toss in weeklies or other smaller tournaments.
Couldn't be more pumped for EU. Serral Clem will always be a banger and so many different storylines in the other half of the bracket as well. Dreaming for maxpax Clem bo7
Series like this make me pretty skeptical when people say skill level has decreased since X year. Maybe "competition" level, but definitely not in terms of skill. These two are just playing out of their minds
I guess Clem was too distracted with all the switch and turn and forgot how to defend those dropperlord. Btw, I have seen Serral done that a lot more lately, with early Roaches for safety/pressure, and then greedy switch into late game tech super quick. What would the top Terran do to counter that? How about 2-base all-in?
On May 22 2023 02:40 Pandain wrote: Series like this make me pretty skeptical when people say skill level has decreased since X year. Maybe "competition" level, but definitely not in terms of skill. These two are just playing out of their minds
Completely agree. Serral vs. Clem was an absurdly high-level series skill-wise, as was to be expected.
To me there is no question that, notwithstanding a bit of inevitable variation, the skill level in present-day SC2 is the highest it has ever been.
Serral vs. MaxPax should make for an amazing finals.
I think Serral is just too strong for MaxPax in a BO7. But it must be remembered that MaxPax is one of the few players who managed to win a series against Serral in the weeks since Katowice.
Watching Colossi get abducted always seems so dumb to me. Obviously Serral was ahead and Maxpax shouldn't be invincible defensively but it looks very dumb.
Looked a tasty tournament, especially in EU. Players are stepping up from the A/B tiers to be increasingly competitive with the traditional ‘big three’. Long may that continue!
To paraphrase butcher Gary Lineker’s quote about the Germans in football, ‘Starcraft is a simple game. Two players macro, micro, try to force that gg. Spectators may balance whine, and in the end Serral always wins’.
On May 22 2023 08:30 WombaT wrote: Looked a tasty tournament, especially in EU. Players are stepping up from the A/B tiers to be increasingly competitive with the traditional ‘big three’. Long may that continue!
Yeah, this was a highly enoyable tournament. The Swiss group format made the group stage much more compact and meaningful, and very worth watching.
The play-offs featured some astonishingly high-level matches, above all, those involving Serral, Clem, and MaxPax.
Honestly if Clem had beaten Serral I think we would have had a MaxPax championship.
That final game of Serral/Clem was absolutely incredible by Serral - it's super rare you see a zerg be that innovative but he made it happen - would love to see more of that.
On May 22 2023 10:56 Pandain wrote: Honestly if Clem had beaten Serral I think we would have had a MaxPax championship.
That final game of Serral/Clem was absolutely incredible by Serral - it's super rare you see a zerg be that innovative but he made it happen - would love to see more of that.
I thought all of those years Rogue was being innovative, but turning out he was just abusing the balance.
Btw, the world seems to be normal again with Maru winning GSL and Serral winning EU titles, now we will see them dodging each other again due to seeding and somebody else will just win the Global Final.
On May 22 2023 10:56 Pandain wrote: Honestly if Clem had beaten Serral I think we would have had a MaxPax championship.
That final game of Serral/Clem was absolutely incredible by Serral - it's super rare you see a zerg be that innovative but he made it happen - would love to see more of that.
I thought all of those years Rogue was being innovative, but turning out he was just abusing the balance.
Btw, the world seems to be normal again with Maru winning GSL and Serral winning EU titles, now we will see them dodging each other again due to seeding and somebody else will just win the Global Final.
He’s a cheeky scamp that Rogue, do miss having him around. There’s a fine line between innovative and abusive, hell sometimes it can be both. Rogue does all! Plus some stellar macro games to boot
So MaxPax has forfeited ESL Summer, again, and now they will host a mini bracket among the 4 players that lost the EU Quaterfinal. Looking like Reynor will make it, unless Elazer just smash in ZvZ again.
On May 28 2023 02:09 tigera6 wrote: So MaxPax has forfeited ESL Summer, again, and now they will host a mini bracket among the 4 players that lost the EU Quaterfinal. Looking like Reynor will make it, unless Elazer just smash in ZvZ again.