Four groups of six players played out in Round-Robin format.
All matches are Bo3. • First place in each group advances directly to the Quarterfinals. • Second and third place in each group advance to the Round of 12.
Ties are broken in the following order: • Overall map difference • Overall number of map wins • Match wins amassed between the tied participants ('Mini-League') • Map difference between the tied participants ('Mini-League') • Number of map wins between the tied participants ('Mini-League') • Tie breaker matches • Coin toss
The match order is perfect for Clem, he gets the weakest opponents first and should get a good momentum starting today instead of playing Dark right away and potentially lose confidence.
Should be an incredible day of StarCraft, too bad tickets were 10-12 and not 9-12
How is Dark so damn cool. Is this literally the first time we see a Korean SC2 pro sporting a beard (more than just some travel shade) at a tournament? I can't remember anyone else doing this.
On February 09 2023 20:31 TheOneAboveU wrote: How is Dark so damn cool. Is this literally the first time we see a Korean SC2 pro sporting a beard (more than just some travel shade) at a tournament? I can't remember anyone else doing this.
That last engagement in G1 Clem-TIME... What the hell man. WHY would he do that? TIME's tanks were not in range of anything critical at that moment, no need to YOLO in vs ravens with energy and a perfect tank line (for the "flank"). What an amazing throw
On February 09 2023 20:56 Poopi wrote: I am not sure I like the combination of broodlord speed buff + the ghost nerf, feeling 2012 vibes. I guess we will see with Maru
Speed BLord now can run away from Thor, Ghost Snipe can be dealt with Infestor. You would need to be super patient and play the long game as Terran.
On February 09 2023 20:58 Vindicare605 wrote: Cure 100% wins that game on the previous patch or on the previous map pool. Dark only won because of both factors being in play.
Yeah you can see how most of the snipes never got cast cause they were at the new limit and Dark snipped back, but ghosts cannot get closer cause fungal, plus BLs are faster now.
On February 09 2023 20:58 Vindicare605 wrote: Cure 100% wins that game on the previous patch or on the previous map pool. Dark only won because of both factors being in play.
Yeah you can see how most of the snipes never got cast cause they were at the new limit and Dark snipped back, but ghosts cannot get closer cause fungal, plus BLs are faster now.
Even with those changes Cure still had such strong positional play that Dark needed to grind him down and take 2 of his bases which is impossible for Cure to really do anything about when using late game Mech/Ghost.
On a map that giant, if Zerg enters the late game on even footing or even ahead of Terran, Terran's going to have to be EVEN more efficient than pre patch to win, and with the nerfs to Terran late game/buffs to Zerg late game, I don't see how that efficiency is possible.
It falls to the Terran elite to raise the ceiling of what is possible in the game yet again.
On February 09 2023 20:58 Vindicare605 wrote: Cure 100% wins that game on the previous patch or on the previous map pool. Dark only won because of both factors being in play.
Yeah you can see how most of the snipes never got cast cause they were at the new limit and Dark snipped back, but ghosts cannot get closer cause fungal, plus BLs are faster now.
Even with those changes Cure still had such strong positional play that Dark needed to grind him down and take 2 of his bases which is impossible for Cure to really do anything about when using late game Mech/Ghost.
On a map that giant, if Zerg enters the late game on even footing or even ahead of Terran, Terran's going to have to be EVEN more efficient than pre patch to win, and with the nerfs to Terran late game/buffs to Zerg late game, I don't see how that efficiency is possible.
It falls to the Terran elite to raise the ceiling of what is possible in the game yet again.
I feel like they just don't want this Ghost exhaust style to be a thing, and just want terran to be a mid-game race again as it used to be for a long period
On February 09 2023 20:58 Vindicare605 wrote: Cure 100% wins that game on the previous patch or on the previous map pool. Dark only won because of both factors being in play.
Yeah you can see how most of the snipes never got cast cause they were at the new limit and Dark snipped back, but ghosts cannot get closer cause fungal, plus BLs are faster now.
Even with those changes Cure still had such strong positional play that Dark needed to grind him down and take 2 of his bases which is impossible for Cure to really do anything about when using late game Mech/Ghost.
On a map that giant, if Zerg enters the late game on even footing or even ahead of Terran, Terran's going to have to be EVEN more efficient than pre patch to win, and with the nerfs to Terran late game/buffs to Zerg late game, I don't see how that efficiency is possible.
It falls to the Terran elite to raise the ceiling of what is possible in the game yet again.
I feel like they just don't want this Ghost exhaust style to be a thing, and just want terran to be a mid-game race again as it used to be for a long period
Yeah, except what they did havent ended in what they want at all, Zerg just cant die in mid-game unless to an all-in, or hidden tech. If neither player mess up, it will end up in lategame most of the time.
On February 09 2023 19:49 Poopi wrote: The match order is perfect for Clem, he gets the weakest opponents first and should get a good momentum starting today instead of playing Dark right away and potentially lose confidence.
On February 09 2023 19:49 Poopi wrote: The match order is perfect for Clem, he gets the weakest opponents first and should get a good momentum starting today instead of playing Dark right away and potentially lose confidence.
uh oh
It was a wrong statement too from the start. Neeb is the weakest player in this group by a significant amount. After that it's arguable who is weakest between TIME, Ragnarok and Clem.
On February 09 2023 20:58 Vindicare605 wrote: Cure 100% wins that game on the previous patch or on the previous map pool. Dark only won because of both factors being in play.
Yeah you can see how most of the snipes never got cast cause they were at the new limit and Dark snipped back, but ghosts cannot get closer cause fungal, plus BLs are faster now.
Even with those changes Cure still had such strong positional play that Dark needed to grind him down and take 2 of his bases which is impossible for Cure to really do anything about when using late game Mech/Ghost.
On a map that giant, if Zerg enters the late game on even footing or even ahead of Terran, Terran's going to have to be EVEN more efficient than pre patch to win, and with the nerfs to Terran late game/buffs to Zerg late game, I don't see how that efficiency is possible.
It falls to the Terran elite to raise the ceiling of what is possible in the game yet again.
I feel like they just don't want this Ghost exhaust style to be a thing, and just want terran to be a mid-game race again as it used to be for a long period
Terran hasn't been a mid game race since the +5 baneling hp killed the 3/3 timing.
On February 09 2023 19:49 Poopi wrote: The match order is perfect for Clem, he gets the weakest opponents first and should get a good momentum starting today instead of playing Dark right away and potentially lose confidence.
uh oh
It was a wrong statement too from the start. Neeb is the weakest player in this group by a significant amount. After that it's arguable who is weakest between TIME, Ragnarok and Clem.
Not to mention, TvT is his worst matchup, whereas it's probably TIME's best.
On February 09 2023 21:39 Vindicare605 wrote: Ragnarok is flexing his Code S quality.
You mean how he wiggled his way to the GSL finals only to get absolutely demolished by Maru?
I never said he was a GSL Code S Finalist quality, more like a consistent Ro16 quality player, which is good enough for being as good as the best Europe has to offer.
Clem's standard TvZ midgame is a thing of beauty, no matter how much I criticize the kid for his TvT or his late game play, I can't take that away from him.
Fun series. Very close. If these two played a Bo7 I'm sure it would go to 7 games.
On February 09 2023 21:39 Vindicare605 wrote: Ragnarok is flexing his Code S quality.
You mean how he wiggled his way to the GSL finals only to get absolutely demolished by Maru?
I never said he was a GSL Code S Finalist quality, more like a consistent Ro16 quality player, which is good enough for being as good as the best Europe has to offer.
On February 09 2023 21:39 Vindicare605 wrote: Ragnarok is flexing his Code S quality.
You mean how he wiggled his way to the GSL finals only to get absolutely demolished by Maru?
I never said he was a GSL Code S Finalist quality, more like a consistent Ro16 quality player, which is good enough for being as good as the best Europe has to offer.
Well apparently not.
Apparently yes. That series was SUPER close.
Clem was a breath away from losing Game 2. He barely won that, he only convincingly won Game 3, and that was after convincingly losing game 1.
If Clem is going to be played that close in his best match up to the 3rd or 4th best Korean Zerg in the tournament I don't like his chances for going very far overall.
On February 09 2023 21:39 Vindicare605 wrote: Ragnarok is flexing his Code S quality.
You mean how he wiggled his way to the GSL finals only to get absolutely demolished by Maru?
I never said he was a GSL Code S Finalist quality, more like a consistent Ro16 quality player, which is good enough for being as good as the best Europe has to offer.
Well apparently not.
Apparently yes. That series was SUPER close.
Clem was a breath away from losing Game 2. He barely won that, he only convincingly won Game 3, and that was after convincingly losing game 1.
If Clem is going to be played that close in his best match up to the 3rd or 4th best Korean Zerg in the tournament I don't like his chances for going very far overall.
I mean calling Ragnarok 3rd or 4th best Korean Zerg tells it's own story already, while that might be actually true Ragnarok is just not a top tier player in my personal bias and this speaks for the ever-declining quality of Korean pros rather than foreigners closing the gap.
Tbh I was more disappointed with Clems perfomance than impressed with Ragnarok's in this series.
On February 09 2023 21:39 Vindicare605 wrote: Ragnarok is flexing his Code S quality.
You mean how he wiggled his way to the GSL finals only to get absolutely demolished by Maru?
I never said he was a GSL Code S Finalist quality, more like a consistent Ro16 quality player, which is good enough for being as good as the best Europe has to offer.
Well apparently not.
Apparently yes. That series was SUPER close.
Clem was a breath away from losing Game 2. He barely won that, he only convincingly won Game 3, and that was after convincingly losing game 1.
If Clem is going to be played that close in his best match up to the 3rd or 4th best Korean Zerg in the tournament I don't like his chances for going very far overall.
I mean calling Ragnarok 3rd or 4th best Korean Zerg tells it's own story already, while that might be actually true Ragnarok is just not a top tier player in my personal bias and this speaks for the ever-declining quality of Korean pros rather than foreigners closing the gap. .
We agree there. I've learned to accept that the Korean SC2 scene is dying it has maybe 2 years left tops. When Maru leaves to the military it will probably die with him as much as it's going to break my heart to see it go.
As for this series, both players played at about the level I expected of them. Ragnarok is inconsistent and Clem has weaknesses that his fans don't like to talk about.
Neither of them are real players for the championship in this tournament, it's just going to be interesting who gets farther since I view them at about the same level.
I like listening to Tasteless cast Gumiho. He used to disrespect him quite a lot, doubted he'd ever win a GSL with the way he plays, and then he won one and Tasteless admits he's earned his respect by proving him wrong.
Knowing that story, makes his commentary about him so nice to listen to.
On February 09 2023 22:23 Vindicare605 wrote: I like listening to Tasteless cast Gumiho. He used to disrespect him quite a lot, doubted he'd ever win a GSL with the way he plays, and then he won one and Tasteless admits he's earned his respect by proving him wrong.
Knowing that story, makes his commentary about him so nice to listen to.
character development
I guess it's because Tasteless didn't commentate GSTL in fOu/FXO's glory days
On February 09 2023 21:39 Vindicare605 wrote: Ragnarok is flexing his Code S quality.
You mean how he wiggled his way to the GSL finals only to get absolutely demolished by Maru?
I never said he was a GSL Code S Finalist quality, more like a consistent Ro16 quality player, which is good enough for being as good as the best Europe has to offer.
Eh, I think you're taking some rough shortcuts in your approximate skill levels here. For starters Ragnarok may have been a top 16 GSL player 2 years ago, but between his skill improving and Korean talent disappearing into the army, he's now skirting the top 4. Maru, herO and Dark are clearly above him. I'd give Bunny a slight edge over him, and Ragnarok a slight edge over DRG, but Ragnarok is pretty solidly lodged in that second tier of Koreans right now.
That said, I agree with the assessment that the average skill level at the top of Korea is still higher than the average skill level at the top in Europe, and that one really should expect Ragnarok and Clem to have a close fight, which they did.
In fact, I don't see a clear #2 at all in group A. Any 2 out of Cure, Time, Ragnarok and Clem taking the other 2 playoff spots would not be an upset. Just Dark losing out would be... but with how Dark started off, that seems unlikely.
Going for a gazillion multi-prong attacks even though he has no chance of microing all locations properly, cause he knows at least one of the attacks is going to find a gap and get damage done.
On February 09 2023 22:23 Vindicare605 wrote: I like listening to Tasteless cast Gumiho. He used to disrespect him quite a lot, doubted he'd ever win a GSL with the way he plays, and then he won one and Tasteless admits he's earned his respect by proving him wrong.
Knowing that story, makes his commentary about him so nice to listen to.
GSTL in fOu/FXO's glory days
FXO.GuMiho was the protagonist of GSTL. I remember those manner CCs vs Sniper on Whirlwind
On February 09 2023 22:23 Vindicare605 wrote: I like listening to Tasteless cast Gumiho. He used to disrespect him quite a lot, doubted he'd ever win a GSL with the way he plays, and then he won one and Tasteless admits he's earned his respect by proving him wrong.
Knowing that story, makes his commentary about him so nice to listen to.
GSTL in fOu/FXO's glory days
FXO.GuMiho was the protagonist of GSTL. I remember those manner CCs vs Sniper on Whirlwind
their combo of Gumiho to start, filler players in between, Choya to snipe, and Leenock to cleanup was powerful
That's not really a good sign for Protoss in this tournament. But it is a good sign for him. This is as good as I've seen him look.
Mechanically he's still inferior to a lot of the better players in this tournament but with the amount of creativity and strangeness he plays with he can still be dangerous to steal games like he just did vs Reynor.
On February 10 2023 00:08 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Double Warp Prism let's go.
If Terrans can handle two drops at the same time, Protosses can handle two warp prisms! Great stuff from Astrea!
Some of us have been saying this for literally over 10 years.
And yet still Protoss players refuse to do it most of the time.
Probbaly because most protoss units arent really that much of drop material.
That's not the point. How many games over the years have been decided because the single Warp Prism enabling the Protoss attack dies?
Protoss players during many different portions of the meta have made the Warp Prism absolutely essential for controlling everything from Immortals to High Templar while still being important for reinforcement purposes.
And yet for as valuable as they are the usual thing is to only have one out at a time. It's insane to me. Oh Robotics facility production time is at a premium? So is factory or Starport time for Terran, MAKE ANOTHER ONE, Protoss production facilities cost only a tiny fraction more than Terrans do.
It's simply a bad habit Protoss players have, a corner they choose to cut CONSTANTLY, and one that consistently creates a weak spot that gets exploited.
I am happy the only group I totally missed today was group B, finally arrived at Katowice but still gotta commute to the hostel. Perfectly in time for group C and especially D with the best terrans in the world
On February 10 2023 00:36 JJH777 wrote: It's so stupid that banes 1 shot probes. That's probably one of the main reasons Toss has been such a volatile race for all of SC2.
Ey, come on. Reynor made it look silly, but build more sim city, get more vision, have a cannon, get some defensive upgrades..
Yeah, Astrea was a bit too much on the Archon, because Reynor keep rotating the lingbane away from them and fight them with Roach - Ravager instead. Replacing the Archon with more Stalker might have been better imo.
On February 10 2023 00:36 JJH777 wrote: It's so stupid that banes 1 shot probes. That's probably one of the main reasons Toss has been such a volatile race for all of SC2.
Baneling runbys are a thing in all 3 match ups. This isn't why Protoss is a volatile race.
On February 10 2023 00:08 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Double Warp Prism let's go.
If Terrans can handle two drops at the same time, Protosses can handle two warp prisms! Great stuff from Astrea!
Some of us have been saying this for literally over 10 years.
And yet still Protoss players refuse to do it most of the time.
Probbaly because most protoss units arent really that much of drop material.
Oh Robotics facility production time is at a premium? So is factory or Starport time for Terran,
No.
Robo units and Protoss' ability to keep their numbers up has been defining their ability to win for the entirety of StarCraft 2, outside of Skytoss metas. The notion that Terran Starport units have had a comparable importance is just wrong.
On February 10 2023 00:36 JJH777 wrote: It's so stupid that banes 1 shot probes. That's probably one of the main reasons Toss has been such a volatile race for all of SC2.
Its the +5 baneling hp. Can do runbys while still holding the push. Turned every zerg into life.
On February 10 2023 00:08 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Double Warp Prism let's go.
If Terrans can handle two drops at the same time, Protosses can handle two warp prisms! Great stuff from Astrea!
Some of us have been saying this for literally over 10 years.
And yet still Protoss players refuse to do it most of the time.
Probbaly because most protoss units arent really that much of drop material.
Oh Robotics facility production time is at a premium? So is factory or Starport time for Terran,
No.
Robo units and Protoss' ability to keep their numbers up has been defining their ability to win for the entirety of StarCraft 2, outside of Skytoss metas. The notion that Terran Starport units have had a comparable importance is just wrong.
You use your starport to counter protoss robo units though? Like Vikings heavy versus colossus and/or mix with medivacs vs the rest Killing the starport (gas units in general but particularly from the starport in PvT) units of the terran has a strong effect, similarly to killing the robo units
On February 10 2023 00:08 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Double Warp Prism let's go.
If Terrans can handle two drops at the same time, Protosses can handle two warp prisms! Great stuff from Astrea!
Some of us have been saying this for literally over 10 years.
And yet still Protoss players refuse to do it most of the time.
Probbaly because most protoss units arent really that much of drop material.
Oh Robotics facility production time is at a premium? So is factory or Starport time for Terran,
No.
Robo units and Protoss' ability to keep their numbers up has been defining their ability to win for the entirety of StarCraft 2, outside of Skytoss metas. The notion that Terran Starport units have had a comparable importance is just wrong.
LOL ok dude.
Tanks aren't important vs Zerg. Vikings aren't important vs Protoss. I must be mistaken, Terran only ever wins every game in every match up with Marines and Marauders.
On February 10 2023 00:08 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Double Warp Prism let's go.
If Terrans can handle two drops at the same time, Protosses can handle two warp prisms! Great stuff from Astrea!
Some of us have been saying this for literally over 10 years.
And yet still Protoss players refuse to do it most of the time.
Probbaly because most protoss units arent really that much of drop material.
Oh Robotics facility production time is at a premium? So is factory or Starport time for Terran,
No.
Robo units and Protoss' ability to keep their numbers up has been defining their ability to win for the entirety of StarCraft 2, outside of Skytoss metas. The notion that Terran Starport units have had a comparable importance is just wrong.
LOL ok dude.
Tanks aren't important vs Zerg. Vikings aren't important vs Protoss. I must be mistaken, Terran only ever wins every game in every match up with Marines and Marauders.
Well, the difference is that Starport buildtime is premium specifially because of medivacs so you have them anyway. Protoss has more important things they need to produce from their robo
On February 10 2023 00:36 JJH777 wrote: It's so stupid that banes 1 shot probes. That's probably one of the main reasons Toss has been such a volatile race for all of SC2.
Baneling runbys are a thing in all 3 match ups. This isn't why Protoss is a volatile race.
They aren't anywhere near as strong vs Z/T as against Protoss.
On February 10 2023 00:36 JJH777 wrote: It's so stupid that banes 1 shot probes. That's probably one of the main reasons Toss has been such a volatile race for all of SC2.
Baneling runbys are a thing in all 3 match ups. This isn't why Protoss is a volatile race.
They aren't anywhere near as strong vs Z/T as against Protoss.
Terran got the Sensor tower, and Zerg got vision through creep, so they can react in time. Protoss wont know a thing until those things start going near the mineral line, unless you fully walling up the base and keep doing that for the entire game.
On February 10 2023 00:08 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Double Warp Prism let's go.
If Terrans can handle two drops at the same time, Protosses can handle two warp prisms! Great stuff from Astrea!
Some of us have been saying this for literally over 10 years.
And yet still Protoss players refuse to do it most of the time.
Probbaly because most protoss units arent really that much of drop material.
Oh Robotics facility production time is at a premium? So is factory or Starport time for Terran,
No.
Robo units and Protoss' ability to keep their numbers up has been defining their ability to win for the entirety of StarCraft 2, outside of Skytoss metas. The notion that Terran Starport units have had a comparable importance is just wrong.
LOL ok dude.
Tanks aren't important vs Zerg. Vikings aren't important vs Protoss. I must be mistaken, Terran only ever wins every game in every match up with Marines and Marauders.
Obvious fact: Starport units don't define Terran's ability to win the way Robo units do for Protoss Some idiotic strawman: "Oh, so you're saying no Starport unit has ANY value, at ANY point, for ANY reason? Bio units are the only unikts Terran has EVER made? Wow, what a stupid argument that you, and definitely not I, have made there, dude."
Re: why banelings got +5 hp buff. Wasn't it because Terrans got quite good at sniping them? But then both banelings goth buffed AND zerg learned to use them better, and now they're really strong.
On February 10 2023 00:36 JJH777 wrote: It's so stupid that banes 1 shot probes. That's probably one of the main reasons Toss has been such a volatile race for all of SC2.
Baneling runbys are a thing in all 3 match ups. This isn't why Protoss is a volatile race.
They aren't anywhere near as strong vs Z/T as against Protoss.
And why is that? There is nothing in Terran design that makes Banelings worse vs their workers. They do just as much damage.
But Terrans leave defensive units behind to counter them and Terrans build their bases in such a way to mitigate their damage. The only structure that actually does anything to help block them is the Planetary Fortress which isn't available at every base.
When Protoss "gameplay" involves keeping all of their units in one big slow moving clump and moving it around only in a single spot on the map at a time like Astrea was doing just now, then of course it's easy to just pick him apart with runbys because Reynor knows where his units are at every moment of the game and of course he has no static defense because that's something else that Protoss players have just unanimously decided isn't worth making while they lose dozens of probes to preventable raids.
It's a product of both A: Map design favoring wide open expansions that are hard to wall and B: Protoss not making the effort to sim city their expansions in the first place. If Terran players refused to sim city theirs they'd be taking just as much damage from runbys as Protoss do.
On February 10 2023 00:51 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Baneling +5 hp should be reverted. Banelings were fine in WoL and HotS, why were they ever buffed in LotV in the first place?
On February 10 2023 00:36 JJH777 wrote: It's so stupid that banes 1 shot probes. That's probably one of the main reasons Toss has been such a volatile race for all of SC2.
Baneling runbys are a thing in all 3 match ups. This isn't why Protoss is a volatile race.
They aren't anywhere near as strong vs Z/T as against Protoss.
And why is that? There is nothing in Terran design that makes Banelings worse vs their workers. They do just as much damage.
On February 10 2023 00:36 JJH777 wrote: It's so stupid that banes 1 shot probes. That's probably one of the main reasons Toss has been such a volatile race for all of SC2.
Baneling runbys are a thing in all 3 match ups. This isn't why Protoss is a volatile race.
They aren't anywhere near as strong vs Z/T as against Protoss.
And why is that? There is nothing in Terran design that makes them any worse. They do just as much damage.
But Terrans leave defensive units behind to counter them and Terrans build their bases in such a way to mitigate their damage. The only structure that actually does anything to help block them is the Planetary Fortress which isn't available at every base.
When Protoss "gameplay" involves keeping all of their units in one big slow moving clump and moving it around only in a single spot on the map at a time like Astrea was doing just now, then of course it's easy to just pick him apart with runbys because Reynor knows where his units are at every moment of the game and of course he has no static defense because that's something else that Protoss players have just unanimously decided isn't worth making while they lose dozens of probes to preventable raids.
It's a product of both A: Map design favoring wide open expansions that are hard to wall and Protoss not making the effort to sim city their expansions in the first place. If Terran players refused to sim city theirs they'd be taking just as much damage from runbys as Protoss do.
Scvs have 45hp. Give probes 45hp and there's a pretty good chance Astrea wins that game.
Hell they don't even have to do that, that game was especially frustrating because of the disruptor nerf. There were so many instances where Astrea would have gotten more kills on Reynors army with the old radius which could have swung the momentum of that game. Reynor owes the patch for being 2-0 in this group. Just rollback the disruptor nerf.
On February 10 2023 00:36 JJH777 wrote: It's so stupid that banes 1 shot probes. That's probably one of the main reasons Toss has been such a volatile race for all of SC2.
Baneling runbys are a thing in all 3 match ups. This isn't why Protoss is a volatile race.
They aren't anywhere near as strong vs Z/T as against Protoss.
And why is that? There is nothing in Terran design that makes Banelings worse vs their workers. They do just as much damage.
Terran workers have 5 extra health...
Which doesn't matter when Reynor is sending 12-16 banelings at a time like he was against Astrea just now.
On February 10 2023 00:36 JJH777 wrote: It's so stupid that banes 1 shot probes. That's probably one of the main reasons Toss has been such a volatile race for all of SC2.
Baneling runbys are a thing in all 3 match ups. This isn't why Protoss is a volatile race.
They aren't anywhere near as strong vs Z/T as against Protoss.
And why is that? There is nothing in Terran design that makes them any worse. They do just as much damage.
But Terrans leave defensive units behind to counter them and Terrans build their bases in such a way to mitigate their damage. The only structure that actually does anything to help block them is the Planetary Fortress which isn't available at every base.
When Protoss "gameplay" involves keeping all of their units in one big slow moving clump and moving it around only in a single spot on the map at a time like Astrea was doing just now, then of course it's easy to just pick him apart with runbys because Reynor knows where his units are at every moment of the game and of course he has no static defense because that's something else that Protoss players have just unanimously decided isn't worth making while they lose dozens of probes to preventable raids.
It's a product of both A: Map design favoring wide open expansions that are hard to wall and Protoss not making the effort to sim city their expansions in the first place. If Terran players refused to sim city theirs they'd be taking just as much damage from runbys as Protoss do.
Scvs have 45hp. Give probes 45hp and there's a pretty good chance Astrea wins that game.
Hell they don't even have to do that, that game was especially frustrating because of the disruptor nerf. There were so many instances where Astrea would have gotten more kills on Reynors army with the old radius which could have swung the momentum of that game. Reynor owes the patch for being 2-0 in this group. Just rollback the disruptor nerf.
I'd say the map played a much bigger role, but I'd be fine reverting the Disruptor nerf as well. I'd be fine reverting the entire damn patch since Zerg didn't need buffs.
I'm just saying, it's not Banelings being unfair vs Protoss that has made them such a volatile race. That's a bunch of bologna, Protoss has MANY design flaws in their army design that has encouraged a volatile playstyle from the players that play it.
One single type of Zerg harassment isn't causing all of that.
Well, sometimes only one baneling survives - and then it's often a difference between 0 probes killed and 10 probes killed. A few such situations, and it can be 10-20+ probes in just one game.
Oh, and I'm not saying this is the main problem in PvZ. More like - these 5hp actually DO matter.
On February 10 2023 01:00 ZeroByte13 wrote: Well, sometimes only one baneling survives - and then it's often a difference between 0 probes killed and 10 probes killed. A few such situations, and it can be 10-20+ probes in just one game.
Oh, and I'm not saying this is the main problem in PvZ. More like - these 5hp actually DO matter.
Yeah there are plenty of times when playing terran where one single bane out of ten or whatever gets past the bunker / mine at my third and hits 6 scvs in the mineral line, but it doesn't kill a single one. And I can just amove a boosted medivac at the mineral line and it will automatically heal all the scvs to full. Protoss doesn't have either of those luxuries.
It looked like Elazer was pretty far ahead, he didn't need to attack that recklessly. He already had hydras and lurker den. He could wait a minute, get 6-8 lurkers with 3/3, and Solar would be in a very big trouble.
On February 10 2023 01:21 ZeroByte13 wrote: It looked like he's pretty far ahead, he didn't need to attack that recklessly. He already had hydras and lurker den. He could wait a minute, get 6-8 lurkers with 3/3, and Solar would be in a very big trouble.
Yeah, he was really far ahead, then threw away half his army for no reason on the other side of the map. Would have been almost literally impossible to lose that game if he had just stalled for time (with biles, etc) for a minute.
Which stream was Gumiho vs Showtim played on earlier?
On February 10 2023 00:54 Vindicare605 wrote: When Protoss "gameplay" involves keeping all of their units in one big slow moving clump and moving it around only in a single spot on the map at a time like Astrea was doing just now, then of course it's easy to just pick him apart with runbys because Reynor knows where his units are at every moment of the game and of course he has no static defense because that's something else that Protoss players have just unanimously decided isn't worth making while they lose dozens of probes to preventable raids.
And that is why I am a big fan of herO's play now - aggressive, versatile, multitasking etc. Very different from all the other Protosses. He also has this killer instinct that so many of the foreigner Protosses lack.
On February 10 2023 01:21 ZeroByte13 wrote: It looked like he's pretty far ahead, he didn't need to attack that recklessly. He already had hydras and lurker den. He could wait a minute, get 6-8 lurkers with 3/3, and Solar would be in a very big trouble.
Yeah, he was really far ahead, then threw away half his army for no reason on the other side of the map. Would have been almost literally impossible to lose that game if he had just stalled for time (with biles, etc) for a minute.
Which stream was Gumiho vs Showtim played on earlier?
On February 10 2023 01:21 ZeroByte13 wrote: It looked like he's pretty far ahead, he didn't need to attack that recklessly. He already had hydras and lurker den. He could wait a minute, get 6-8 lurkers with 3/3, and Solar would be in a very big trouble.
Yeah, he was really far ahead, then threw away half his army for no reason on the other side of the map. Would have been almost literally impossible to lose that game if he had just stalled for time (with biles, etc) for a minute.
Which stream was Gumiho vs Showtim played on earlier?
On February 10 2023 01:50 tlnetuser108 wrote: I think that ESL should poll the audience on what matches get to be on the main stream.
It was unfair to discard Solar matches instead of Serral. Let it be random.
Every game on the main stream should be players like Maru. Reynor, Serral, etc. We shouldnt have been forced to watch games like Gumi vs Astrea when there are more prolific players playing.
On February 10 2023 02:14 swarminfestor wrote: If herO beat Serral too, is there any possiblity that Serral may not advance from the group?
of course there is. He lost this match. If he loses to hero, he'll have lost 2 matches. And he still has to play solar and elazer, both of who are totally able to take a Bo3 against him.
On February 10 2023 02:15 Topin wrote: damn missed hero vs solar. how brutal it was?
Not as brutal when herO defeated DRG in previous match. HerO was just well-prepared in every ZvP matches unless most of his tricks or playbook got unveiled in the next matches.
On February 10 2023 01:50 tlnetuser108 wrote: I think that ESL should poll the audience on what matches get to be on the main stream.
It was unfair to discard Solar matches instead of Serral. Let it be random.
Every game on the main stream should be players like Maru. Reynor, Serral, etc. We shouldnt have been forced to watch games like Gumi vs Astrea when there are more prolific players playing.
Nobody tied you up and locked your eyes open. If you don't want to watch, don't watch.
I wanted to boycott this tourbament due to the insult to the playerbase this patch was, but seeing in liquipedia that scarlet lost 4-0, serral isnt doing so good and the fact that the matches seems to be good make me want to watch it...
Ive heard its in youtube now? Are the games shows separare or do i need to look the preivous stewam
On February 10 2023 02:31 [Phantom] wrote: I wanted to boycott this tourbament due to the insult to the playerbase this patch was, but seeing in liquipedia that scarlet lost 4-0, serral isnt doing so good and the fact that the matches seems to be good make me want to watch it...
Ive heard its in youtube now? Are the games shows separare or do i need to look the preivous stewam
Scarlett dropped out to ZvZ, Serral has only lost in ZvZ so far.
There is one game in particular where the patch is 100% the reason why a game resulted in a Zerg win instead of his Terran opponent (Dark vs Cure game 2)
There's an argument to be made that Reynor would have lost his series to Astrea if it wasn't for the Disruptor nerf.
To say nothing of how huge the maps are and how that is affecting every game.
The patch is going to leave an impact on the tournament. It's only day 2 and only a couple of the meaningful matches have been played so far.
On February 10 2023 02:31 [Phantom] wrote: I wanted to boycott this tourbament due to the insult to the playerbase this patch was, but seeing in liquipedia that scarlet lost 4-0, serral isnt doing so good and the fact that the matches seems to be good make me want to watch it...
Ive heard its in youtube now? Are the games shows separare or do i need to look the preivous stewam
On February 10 2023 02:42 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Is the person casting with ZombieGrub Tasteless? He sounds like Tasteless, but with a smoother throat. Am I crazy?
Different audio equipment. They're in a booth vs a live stage.
On February 10 2023 02:42 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Is the person casting with ZombieGrub Tasteless? He sounds like Tasteless, but with a smoother throat. Am I crazy?
Different audio equipment. They're in a booth vs a live stage.
Either Lambo felt bad for Byun and let him back into the game, or he just never realized how ahead he was. Instead of making Hydra, he went to tech and Ultra.
On February 10 2023 02:49 royalroadweed wrote: wtf happened? Went away for like a min. Lambo was up 70 supply now they're even? WM hit?
Lambo continually a-moved his entire army at a dropship at one side and then the dropship at the other side did damage again and again until the supply evened out
On February 10 2023 02:31 [Phantom] wrote: I wanted to boycott this tourbament due to the insult to the playerbase this patch was, but seeing in liquipedia that scarlet lost 4-0, serral isnt doing so good and the fact that the matches seems to be good make me want to watch it...
Ive heard its in youtube now? Are the games shows separare or do i need to look the preivous stewam
On February 10 2023 02:31 [Phantom] wrote: I wanted to boycott this tourbament due to the insult to the playerbase this patch was, but seeing in liquipedia that scarlet lost 4-0, serral isnt doing so good and the fact that the matches seems to be good make me want to watch it...
Ive heard its in youtube now? Are the games shows separare or do i need to look the preivous stewam
LOL
Literally 10 Terrans, 8 Zerg, 6 Toss in the RO24.
ro24 distribution is mostly affected by previous results though, gotta wait to see the top 12 or even top 8 I think
On February 10 2023 02:31 [Phantom] wrote: I wanted to boycott this tourbament due to the insult to the playerbase this patch was, but seeing in liquipedia that scarlet lost 4-0, serral isnt doing so good and the fact that the matches seems to be good make me want to watch it...
Ive heard its in youtube now? Are the games shows separare or do i need to look the preivous stewam
LOL
Literally 10 Terrans, 8 Zerg, 6 Toss in the RO24.
You know 20 of those spots got determined before the patch?
Casters made a very good point yesterday that the most impactful part of the Disruptor nerf was to make PvP more enjoyable, the same way TvT playability/enjoyment was a key target of the patch.
Anywho... yeah... further rounds will tell, in theory. Rooting for a her0 v Maru finals so people can chill. 4T RO4 would be hilarious.
On February 10 2023 03:02 Gescom wrote: All the more reason the narrative is silly.
Casters made a very good point yesterday that the most impactful part of the Disruptor nerf was to make PvP more enjoyable, the same way TvT playability/enjoyment was a key target of the patch.
Anywho... yeah... further rounds will tell, in theory. Rooting for a her0 v Maru finals so people can chill.
Yeah let's see. From what I've seen so far I can't imagine Serral/Reynor/Dark losing a ZvT because they are good enough to not die in midgame and lategame just looks unfair. Would love to be proven wrong though
The only thing ive seen so far was a soo vs zoun game with BL stutter stepping... Also tempest need a buff thwy cant catch BL anymore. At least the target thing hydras got
On February 10 2023 03:12 [Phantom] wrote: The only thing ive seen so far was a soo vs zoun game with BL stutter stepping... Also tempest need a buff thwy cant catch BL anymore. At least the target thing hydras got
damage point is the name of the stat that got buffed on hydras allowing stutter step micro, it's the point in time at which the damage is dished out
On February 10 2023 03:37 tlnetuser108 wrote: Serral and Maru losing so early to inferior players makes my brain hurts. Things like this should not happen.
Maru continues his trend of losing on LAN outside of Korea.
DRG legit outplayed Serral in all facets both games, so calling him "inferior" is laughable.
On February 10 2023 03:37 tlnetuser108 wrote: Serral and Maru losing so early to inferior players makes my brain hurts. Things like this should not happen.
Maru inexplicably left game 2 so its not as if hero marine actually beat him
On February 10 2023 03:37 tlnetuser108 wrote: Serral and Maru losing so early to inferior players makes my brain hurts. Things like this should not happen.
MAybe they are not so great this time around? Maru lost games he play sloppy as F, I couldnt believe he play that dumb in a wolrd championship instead of a more careful and safe style
On February 10 2023 03:37 tlnetuser108 wrote: Serral and Maru losing so early to inferior players makes my brain hurts. Things like this should not happen.
Maru inexplicably left game 2 so its not as if hero marine actually beat him
Stream C on twitch i think
This is some narrative. HM won the series. Maru didn't leave for the lulz - he left because he thought the game was over.
On February 10 2023 03:37 tlnetuser108 wrote: Serral and Maru losing so early to inferior players makes my brain hurts. Things like this should not happen.
It means these players were actually superior to Serral and Maru in these games. DRG has a pretty good head-to-head results vs Serral. HM is not a pushover in TvT either. Great players can be sloppy sometimes, this happens to Maru especially all the time.
On February 10 2023 03:37 tlnetuser108 wrote: Serral and Maru losing so early to inferior players makes my brain hurts. Things like this should not happen.
Maru inexplicably left game 2 so its not as if hero marine actually beat him
Calling Drg/Heromarine inferior and making it all dark and gloom regarding Maru/Serral. Everyone looses, if they wont make it out of the group then we can talk about a bad showing
On February 10 2023 03:37 tlnetuser108 wrote: Serral and Maru losing so early to inferior players makes my brain hurts. Things like this should not happen.
It isn't 2018, Serral/Maru lose plenty to players of DRG's caliber.
Maru losing to HM is still pretty shocking, his TvT is looking less invincible lately (he also dropped out of super tournament to Byun.)
On February 10 2023 03:37 tlnetuser108 wrote: Serral and Maru losing so early to inferior players makes my brain hurts. Things like this should not happen.
Maru inexplicably left game 2 so its not as if hero marine actually beat him
Stream C on twitch i think
This is some narrative. HM won the series. Maru didn't leave for the lulz - he left because he thought the game was over.
Maru was literally ahead when he left in game 2.
Then yeah, HM won game 3 fair and square due to maru being super greedy.
On February 10 2023 03:37 tlnetuser108 wrote: Serral and Maru losing so early to inferior players makes my brain hurts. Things like this should not happen.
Maru inexplicably left game 2 so its not as if hero marine actually beat him
Stream C on twitch i think
This is some narrative. HM won the series. Maru didn't leave for the lulz - he left because he thought the game was over.
Maru was literally ahead when he left in game 2.
Then yeah, HM won game 3 fair and square due to maru being super greedy.
I think maru got overconfident
Maru was like 40 supply down when he left game 2... I love Maru and wish he would've stayed in that game cause he's came back from worse positions in the past but he definitely wasn't ahead.
On February 10 2023 03:37 tlnetuser108 wrote: Serral and Maru losing so early to inferior players makes my brain hurts. Things like this should not happen.
Maru inexplicably left game 2 so its not as if hero marine actually beat him
Stream C on twitch i think
This is some narrative. HM won the series. Maru didn't leave for the lulz - he left because he thought the game was over.
Maru was literally ahead when he left in game 2.
Then yeah, HM won game 3 fair and square due to maru being super greedy.
I think maru got overconfident
Man, I'm sorry I missed it. Did Heromarine Hallucinate Void Rays?
On February 10 2023 03:37 tlnetuser108 wrote: Serral and Maru losing so early to inferior players makes my brain hurts. Things like this should not happen.
Maru inexplicably left game 2 so its not as if hero marine actually beat him
Stream C on twitch i think
This is some narrative. HM won the series. Maru didn't leave for the lulz - he left because he thought the game was over.
Maru was literally ahead when he left in game 2.
Then yeah, HM won game 3 fair and square due to maru being super greedy.
I think maru got overconfident
HM drop into Maru main base and Maru didnt have enough unit to deal with it in time, he would be incredibly behind even if he cleaned it up. It was a good gg imo, but Maru was behind because he slowly dripping reaper and Helion into HM direction and get picked up like a rookie, like he expect he can kill HM unit 1v2 or something, and thats why I was mad. And game 3 was terrible, not because he was greedy, but the opening tank push was bad, he just drop the tank straight in front of HM units and take damage while it was sieging, even Kelazur on the casting literally said there was a better tank spot right next to the base. He love to dig himself a hole that he could never almost climb up and thats how he lost his recent TvT as well.
On February 10 2023 03:51 TossHeroes wrote: Funny to see the Maru defenders and Serral haters out on full force lol
Serral and Maru lost one series who cares. They will most likely make it out of the group regardless
In other big news , my boy Classic has a huge chance to make it out
Yeah but the 2 GOATs would be at a disadvantage if they get out in 2nd or 3rd from their group. Again, its very disturbing how they are losing to either a Zerg way past his prime or a EU Terran who isn't Clem. It's illogical how these things happened.
On February 10 2023 03:51 TossHeroes wrote: Funny to see the Maru defenders and Serral haters out on full force lol
Serral and Maru lost one series who cares. They will most likely make it out of the group regardless
In other big news , my boy Classic has a huge chance to make it out
Yeah but the 2 GOATs would be at a disadvantage if they get out in 2nd or 3rd from their group. Again, its very disturbing how they are losing to either a Zerg way past his prime or a EU Terran who isn't Clem. It's illogical how these things happened.
HM has better historical performance in IEM than Clem does. And DRG is no slouch. Players lose games. Even the best players.
Maru not making it out of the group wouldn't be shocking at all tbh : recently his TVTs against ByuN were getting closer and closer. Bunny already got a winning record against him in the past year. He was the favourite vs Lambo/HM and Classic and now that he lost to HM it's going to be a pretty close call.
On February 10 2023 03:51 TossHeroes wrote: Funny to see the Maru defenders and Serral haters out on full force lol
Serral and Maru lost one series who cares. They will most likely make it out of the group regardless
In other big news , my boy Classic has a huge chance to make it out
Yeah but the 2 GOATs would be at a disadvantage if they get out in 2nd or 3rd from their group. Again, its very disturbing how they are losing to either a Zerg way past his prime or a EU Terran who isn't Clem. It's illogical how these things happened.
With the way they played today, they should be at a disadvantage. They both (especially Serral) got simply outplayed or made some weird reads/mistakes throughout their games. Hopefully it's a blip, as the tournament is far more entertaining with both of them around in the later stages.
Well the good news is maybe after this tournament they will finally realize bow srrong terran is in tvp, and nerf the liberartor or buff protoss anti air
On February 10 2023 04:29 [Phantom] wrote: Well the good news is maybe after this tournament they will finally realize bow srrong terran is in tvp, and nerf the liberartor or buff protoss anti air
Its a fantastic start for HM, but with how most of the score being 2-1, lots of thing might change in the next 2 days. But honestly, if someone told me 2 Terran would be at No.1 for 2 group after day 2, my first thought would be Clem/Maru but we got Gumiho and HM.
On February 10 2023 04:29 [Phantom] wrote: Well the good news is maybe after this tournament they will finally realize bow srrong terran is in tvp, and nerf the liberartor or buff protoss anti air
Gabe played better m8.
Did he really? Cause i saw him be oytplayed from start to finish on game three and winning withoyt any micro whatsoever and fighting with a terrible arc, thanks to his switch to liberators
On February 10 2023 04:29 [Phantom] wrote: Well the good news is maybe after this tournament they will finally realize bow srrong terran is in tvp, and nerf the liberartor or buff protoss anti air
Gabe played better m8.
Did he really? Cause i saw him be oytplayed from start to finish on game three and winning withoyt any micro whatsoever and fighting with a terrible arc, thanks to his switch to liberators
I think Classic took a bad fight there, he could have waited a couple more minutes to get the Disruptor out, which should really help to clean the Bio ball and Tanks. HM won not because of the Libs, but because his army postion was superior.
On February 10 2023 04:29 [Phantom] wrote: Well the good news is maybe after this tournament they will finally realize bow srrong terran is in tvp, and nerf the liberartor or buff protoss anti air
Gabe played better m8.
Did he really? Cause i saw him be oytplayed from start to finish on game three and winning withoyt any micro whatsoever and fighting with a terrible arc, thanks to his switch to liberators
Yes.
Also I'd love to see with your eyes - would be a whole new experience. Game 3 Gabe macro'd well while keeping up pressure - being up in workers with mules and no worker kills is just... not supposed to happen. And Classic's handling of that game overall was not stellar. The phoenix investment was meh, and in the main engagement Classic's splash damage never really hit the marine ball. The heavy immortal count and late disruptors against that many marines and air units was a really weird choice.
So much of Classic's spending just didn't feel like it added real value to his army in that game - meanwhile Gabe's units all contributed well to the fight - even the vikings got max possible value.
On February 10 2023 03:51 TossHeroes wrote: Funny to see the Maru defenders and Serral haters out on full force lol
Serral and Maru lost one series who cares. They will most likely make it out of the group regardless
In other big news , my boy Classic has a huge chance to make it out
Yeah but the 2 GOATs would be at a disadvantage if they get out in 2nd or 3rd from their group. Again, its very disturbing how they are losing to either a Zerg way past his prime or a EU Terran who isn't Clem. It's illogical how these things happened.
Eh, losing a ZvZ vs DRG is not too surprising. DRG is the 2nd or 3rd Zerg in Korea right now, making the top 6 in all GSLs, and semifinals in the last season. He's not some nobody.
Maru losing a TvT to HM is more surprising, but he is also not exactly a walkover. Upsets happen in a tournament, and this wasn't even a very big one: Spirit made it through the Ro36 gauntlet ahead of Zoun!
His hyper agression makes him come back when he shouldnt, bur then he throws aqay his advantage by continiung to be hyperagressive and starting to ttade unfavorably. He is in like allin mode all the time and when the rival stabilizes, byun just loses
lol, Maru is worried the most in TvT? But he wont be facing these Terrans again until the Final, so its just going to the Clem/Gumiho/Time/Cure. Dont thing any of those guys can beat him.
BTW the player cards, rated by other pros, put maru as the overall best player acording to pros, and serral barely on the top 5. I guess that settles the goat debate
What bothers the fuck out of me is that Maru and Serral did not top their group. They are clearly leagues and miles ahead of the other players in their respective groups but some how lost.
Must be jetlag from Finland and South Korea. I can't think of any other reason how low EPT ranked players like HM and DRG beat the 2 players with the most EPT points.
On February 10 2023 05:59 Fango wrote: Maru and Serral jot topping their groups is a big surprise. Not used to Serral losing any group stage matches or even games.
Right. Its highly illogical that they are not on top. Again, it must be jetlag. Maybe food poisoning. Maybe cold hands. Its clearly not their skills or else they wouldn't have been top 1 and 2 in EPT points.
On February 10 2023 05:57 tlnetuser108 wrote: What bothers the fuck out of me is that Maru and Serral did not top their group. They are clearly leagues and miles ahead of the other players in their respective groups but some how lost.
Must be jetlag from Finland and South Korea. I can't think of any other reason how low EPT ranked players like HM and DRG beat the 2 players with the most EPT points.
I mean none of the players at this stage in katowice are a push over. combine that with the nature of the bo3 format and that they have a big target in the back, it is easy to see why they can lose some series.
Great first day. Excited to see how the remaining group matches will play out, especially when it comes to the top five favorites (Maru, Hero, Dark, Reynor, Serral). I don't think anyone of them will miss the play-offs, but the competition is fierce.
Also, what's up with people dismissing DRG and HeroMarine as low-tier players in this thread?
On February 10 2023 05:49 [Phantom] wrote: BTW the player cards, rated by other pros, put maru as the overall best player acording to pros, and serral barely on the top 5. I guess that settles the goat debate
you're going to trigger people from the Power Rank thread with posts like this
On February 10 2023 05:57 tlnetuser108 wrote: What bothers the fuck out of me is that Maru and Serral did not top their group. They are clearly leagues and miles ahead of the other players in their respective groups but some how lost.
Must be jetlag from Finland and South Korea. I can't think of any other reason how low EPT ranked players like HM and DRG beat the 2 players with the most EPT points.
It actually makes a lot of sense if you actually watch Starcraft. See people lose sometimes. Wild concept I know, but no one is infallible. I don't understand how DRG, a guy who makes top6 evey GSL is low rated. I don't understand how HM, who made top4 and Katowice last year is low rated. Sure these are surprising results, but dude, calm down.
Furthermore, I don't actually believe we know for sure they aren't topping their groups. Anything can happen.
On February 10 2023 05:57 tlnetuser108 wrote: What bothers the fuck out of me is that Maru and Serral did not top their group. They are clearly leagues and miles ahead of the other players in their respective groups but some how lost.
Must be jetlag from Finland and South Korea. I can't think of any other reason how low EPT ranked players like HM and DRG beat the 2 players with the most EPT points.
I would like to be the first of many to welcome back our mighty king Jet Lag and assure you all that I never supported the vile usurper Internet Lag.
On February 10 2023 06:04 Antithesis wrote: Also, what's up with people dismissing DRG and HeroMarine as low-tier players in this thread?
Well they're not top 5 of their race. and Serral and Maru are favoured against anyone in a mirror matchup. DRG and HM aren't pushovers but it's still a surprise.
On February 10 2023 06:16 MyLovelyLurker wrote: Ah, the famous Finland-Poland jetlag. Volumes could be written
You doubt, but I also remember years ago mighty Jet Lag was invoked to justify Korean losses against Europeans in China. Jet Lag is not to be taken lightly. Its power defies human comprehension.
On February 10 2023 06:16 MyLovelyLurker wrote: Ah, the famous Finland-Poland jetlag. Volumes could be written
You doubt, but I also remember years ago mighty Jet Lag was invoked to justify Korean losses against Europeans in China. Jet Lag is not to be taken lightly. Its power defies human comprehension.
OK but who's the GOAT of lags ? Neither plays in the GSL
On February 10 2023 06:04 Antithesis wrote: Also, what's up with people dismissing DRG and HeroMarine as low-tier players in this thread?
Well they're not top 5 of their race. and Serral and Maru are favoured against anyone in a mirror matchup. DRG and HM aren't pushovers but it's still a surprise.
On February 10 2023 06:16 MyLovelyLurker wrote: Ah, the famous Finland-Poland jetlag. Volumes could be written
You doubt, but I also remember years ago mighty Jet Lag was invoked to justify Korean losses against Europeans in China. Jet Lag is not to be taken lightly. Its power defies human comprehension.
OK but who's the GOAT of lags ? Neither plays in the GSL
Goat Lag slumbers in Avalon, but prophecy says that it shall awaken from its sleep when TL needs it once more.
On February 10 2023 06:04 Antithesis wrote: Also, what's up with people dismissing DRG and HeroMarine as low-tier players in this thread?
Well they're not top 5 of their race. and Serral and Maru are favoured against anyone in a mirror matchup. DRG and HM aren't pushovers but it's still a surprise.
Who are top 5 zerg if drg isnt in there
Not to mention drg is undefeated vs serral in bo3
Serral Reynor Dark Solar Rag. And that's now Rogue is gone. Maybe you can swap DRG for Rag depending on the day
On February 10 2023 06:04 Antithesis wrote: Also, what's up with people dismissing DRG and HeroMarine as low-tier players in this thread?
Well they're not top 5 of their race. and Serral and Maru are favoured against anyone in a mirror matchup. DRG and HM aren't pushovers but it's still a surprise.
Who are top 5 zerg if drg isnt in there
Not to mention drg is undefeated vs serral in bo3
Top 5 is Serral Reynor Dark (in some order) and then two of Ragnarok, Solar, and DRG. DRG has probably had the worse results of those three this year, but I'd put his skill level around Ragnarok's overall.
It's definitely an upset but a good Zerg beating a great Zerg is never that surprising. HM vs Maru is actually an insane upset.
On February 10 2023 06:04 Antithesis wrote: Also, what's up with people dismissing DRG and HeroMarine as low-tier players in this thread?
Well they're not top 5 of their race. and Serral and Maru are favoured against anyone in a mirror matchup. DRG and HM aren't pushovers but it's still a surprise.
Who are top 5 zerg if drg isnt in there
Not to mention drg is undefeated vs serral in bo3
Think you can make the case for Solar, but I personally wouldn't.
Serral, Dark, Reynor and then 2 out of Ragnarok, DRG and Solar. I'd personally rank those 3 in that order, but you could put Solar ahead. But it doesn't really matter. ZvZ is pretty volatile, and I wouldn't really call any of those 6 (and you can add Elazer in there too) beating anyone else in there in a Bo3 an upset.
On February 10 2023 06:04 Antithesis wrote: Also, what's up with people dismissing DRG and HeroMarine as low-tier players in this thread?
Well they're not top 5 of their race. and Serral and Maru are favoured against anyone in a mirror matchup. DRG and HM aren't pushovers but it's still a surprise.
Who are top 5 zerg if drg isnt in there
Not to mention drg is undefeated vs serral in bo3
Top 5 is Serral Reynor Dark (in some order) and then two of Ragnarok, Solar, and DRG. DRG has probably had the worse results of those three this year, but I'd put his skill level around Ragnarok's overall.
It's definitely an upset but a good Zerg beating a great Zerg is never that surprising. HM vs Maru is actually an insane upset.
If you watched HM vs Maru you would not have label the upset in such way, HMN committed hard in game 3 to a 2 base all in that almost fell flat, game 2 Maru give up when he was behind in a true Maru fashion.
On February 10 2023 05:57 tlnetuser108 wrote: What bothers the fuck out of me is that Maru and Serral did not top their group. They are clearly leagues and miles ahead of the other players in their respective groups but some how lost.
Must be jetlag from Finland and South Korea. I can't think of any other reason how low EPT ranked players like HM and DRG beat the 2 players with the most EPT points.
It actually makes a lot of sense if you actually watch Starcraft. See people lose sometimes. Wild concept I know, but no one is infallible. I don't understand how DRG, a guy who makes top6 evey GSL is low rated. I don't understand how HM, who made top4 and Katowice last year is low rated. Sure these are surprising results, but dude, calm down.
Furthermore, I don't actually believe we know for sure they aren't topping their groups. Anything can happen.
Strong agree. The takes people are having are absolutely ludicrous. I've seen comments on this thread saying anything from "Maru Serral are washed / not in form" to "Serral is not a better player than DRG as he just got seriously outplayed."
You'd think that in starcraft 2 more than any other sport we'd realize how much variance there is in this game.
On February 10 2023 05:57 tlnetuser108 wrote: What bothers the fuck out of me is that Maru and Serral did not top their group. They are clearly leagues and miles ahead of the other players in their respective groups but some how lost.
Must be jetlag from Finland and South Korea. I can't think of any other reason how low EPT ranked players like HM and DRG beat the 2 players with the most EPT points.
It actually makes a lot of sense if you actually watch Starcraft. See people lose sometimes. Wild concept I know, but no one is infallible. I don't understand how DRG, a guy who makes top6 evey GSL is low rated. I don't understand how HM, who made top4 and Katowice last year is low rated. Sure these are surprising results, but dude, calm down.
Furthermore, I don't actually believe we know for sure they aren't topping their groups. Anything can happen.
Strong agree. The takes people are having are absolutely ludicrous. I've seen comments on this thread saying anything from "Maru Serral are washed / not in form" to "Serral is not a better player than DRG as he just got seriously outplayed."
You'd think that in starcraft 2 more than any other sport we'd realize how much variance there is in this game.
Yeah, this thread features some of the most asinine takes I've read in a while. And I do frequent Reddit. Surely many a commentator here must be trolling.
Maru often underperforms outside of Korea and Serral has shown weakness in his ZvZ. It's Katowice with the best players in the world duking it out. It's not crazy for there to be a few upsets.
On February 10 2023 05:57 tlnetuser108 wrote: What bothers the fuck out of me is that Maru and Serral did not top their group. They are clearly leagues and miles ahead of the other players in their respective groups but some how lost.
Must be jetlag from Finland and South Korea. I can't think of any other reason how low EPT ranked players like HM and DRG beat the 2 players with the most EPT points.
It actually makes a lot of sense if you actually watch Starcraft. See people lose sometimes. Wild concept I know, but no one is infallible. I don't understand how DRG, a guy who makes top6 evey GSL is low rated. I don't understand how HM, who made top4 and Katowice last year is low rated. Sure these are surprising results, but dude, calm down.
Furthermore, I don't actually believe we know for sure they aren't topping their groups. Anything can happen.
Strong agree. The takes people are having are absolutely ludicrous. I've seen comments on this thread saying anything from "Maru Serral are washed / not in form" to "Serral is not a better player than DRG as he just got seriously outplayed."
You'd think that in starcraft 2 more than any other sport we'd realize how much variance there is in this game.
Yeah, this thread features some of the most asinine takes I've read in a while. And I do frequent Reddit. Surely many a commentator here must be trolling.
I mean, yeah--let's be honest, a solid 1/4 the takes here these days are trollish or argumentative. /shrug
On February 10 2023 11:40 StasisField wrote: Maru often underperforms outside of Korea and Serral has shown weakness in his ZvZ. It's Katowice with the best players in the world duking it out. It's not crazy for there to be a few upsets.
And it's a Bo3 with so much time to prep for a particular matchup, it is not surprising that either Serral/Maru would drop a series. It would be surprising if they did not get out of the group stage, but to lose a Bo3 is not surprising at all.
To be fair to DRG as well, he played out of his mind in his game against Serral. I have never seen him multitask the way he did against Serral. Same goes for Gumiho, he was amazing against ShowTime.
EPT
IEM Katowice/2023
ESL Main // ![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/EPT/Katowice2023/encommentators2.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/EPT/Katowice2023/ro24groups_2.png)
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