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📣Announcing the $5,000 StarCraft II tournament G-Fuel Gladiators' Cup hosted by AlphaX.
 Gladiators%27 Cup
This tournament will be on August 20th 8PM KST (1PM CEST). Featuring 16 invited top level players includes Serral, Reynor, herO, Dark, Rogue.
https://matcherino.com/gladiator
Click claim code to add $0.5 for free! Pls consider doing simple sponsor quests on the right hand side that also adds money for free!
![[image loading]](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/583417889223344158/1010045289803026472/7BNJPFKF5YRJNZ695.jpg)
Rules:
Single Elimination bracket.
RO16, RO8 - BO3 (Will start together)
Semi Final - BO5
Final - BO7
Vetos system:
Bo3: ABBA BAC
Bo5: AB ABABC
Higher on Aligulac ranking is A
Maps:
Cosmic Sapphire LE
Data-C LE
Inside and Out LE
Moondance LE
Stargazers LE
Tropical Sacrifice LE
Waterfall LE
Players:
confirmed (16/16)
 Astrea
 Bunny
ByuN
Cure
 Dark
herO
HeRoMaRinE
MaxPax
RagnaroK
Reynor
Rogue
Serral
ShoWTimE
TIME
Zoun
Nice
Streams
English
https://www.twitch.tv/alphaxsc2
https://www.twitch.tv/matcherino
Korean
https://www.twitch.tv/intotheclancom
French
https://www.twitch.tv/ogamingsc2
Germany
https://www.twitch.tv/belairstarcraft
Portuguese
https://www.twitch.tv/viktorkav
More language streams are coming...
https://www.twitch.tv/algs_sc2
https://www.twitch.tv/alexanderenki
https://www.twitch.tv/3dclanru
https://www.twitch.tv/indystarcraft
For all Alpha X news, notifications, VODs, etc., feel free to follow us @
Twitter - https://twitter.com/AlphaXsc2
Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/alphaxsc2
Discord server - http://bit.ly/AlphaXDiscord
Website - https://www.alphax.gg
Patreon
Want to support Alpha X if you are a fan of our events focused style of developing SC2 talent? We frequently organize events of all kinds to support home talents like Astrea, Zoun, RagnaroK and Classic etc and showcase premier players like Rogue, ByuN, Zest etc. Support and more information via Patreon @ https://www.patreon.com/alphaxsc2
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That Lineup looks absolutly stacked
Top 4 Zergs are there
Top 2 Protoss are there (not realy Sure who comes after herO and MaxPax currently, Neeb? Astrea? Trap? Showtime? 2 of them are there as well)
For Terran we miss Maru and Clem I gues but Heromarine and Bunny are decent standins I gues..
A little diapointed, that it s only one day, having the Ro16 on Saturday and Ro8 onwards on Sunday would have been amazing.
There are so many great games that aren t going to be casted now
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A little diapointed, that it s only one day, having the Ro16 on Saturday and Ro8 onwards on Sunday would have been amazing.
agreed
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Is Trap just completely giving up on SC2 now? Haven seen him play in anything for a long time.
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Canada8988 Posts
On August 01 2022 16:44 Magnath10 wrote:Show nested quote +A little diapointed, that it s only one day, having the Ro16 on Saturday and Ro8 onwards on Sunday would have been amazing. agreed
I like it as a change of pace personally, it allow to really get into the groove of the tournament.
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Canada8988 Posts
On August 02 2022 01:26 tigera6 wrote:
Is Trap just completely giving up on SC2 now? Haven seen him play in anything for a long time.
I guess we'll see soon if he suit up one last time for the WTL playoff and GSL season3, but it sure seems like he's taking a (well deserve) pre-military break
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On August 01 2022 16:17 dbRic1203 wrote:
That Lineup looks absolutly stacked
Top 4 Zergs are there
Top 2 Protoss are there (not realy Sure who comes after herO and MaxPax currently, Neeb? Astrea? Trap? Showtime? 2 of them are there as well)
For Terran we miss Maru and Clem I gues but Heromarine and Bunny are decent standins I gues..
A little diapointed, that it s only one day, having the Ro16 on Saturday and Ro8 onwards on Sunday would have been amazing.
There are so many great games that aren t going to be casted now
MaxPax is a top 2 Protoss? since when?
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On August 02 2022 08:12 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2022 16:17 dbRic1203 wrote:
That Lineup looks absolutly stacked
Top 4 Zergs are there
Top 2 Protoss are there (not realy Sure who comes after herO and MaxPax currently, Neeb? Astrea? Trap? Showtime? 2 of them are there as well)
For Terran we miss Maru and Clem I gues but Heromarine and Bunny are decent standins I gues..
A little diapointed, that it s only one day, having the Ro16 on Saturday and Ro8 onwards on Sunday would have been amazing.
There are so many great games that aren t going to be casted now MaxPax is a top 2 Protoss? since when?
At least online you could argue Maxpax is a top 2 Protoss, though I don't think we should put too much stock in online results. Second best Protoss is really hard to say right now, maybe Creator? I think Trap is probably better right now than we're giving him credit for (unless he's in total pre retirement mode), he got ro4 in the first GSL this year and just hasn't played anything since his narrow elimination in season 2. Zoun is also pretty good but always seems to look good in elimination without a super deep run to show for it.
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Canada8988 Posts
On August 02 2022 09:34 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2022 08:12 AzAlexZ wrote:On August 01 2022 16:17 dbRic1203 wrote:
That Lineup looks absolutly stacked
Top 4 Zergs are there
Top 2 Protoss are there (not realy Sure who comes after herO and MaxPax currently, Neeb? Astrea? Trap? Showtime? 2 of them are there as well)
For Terran we miss Maru and Clem I gues but Heromarine and Bunny are decent standins I gues..
A little diapointed, that it s only one day, having the Ro16 on Saturday and Ro8 onwards on Sunday would have been amazing.
There are so many great games that aren t going to be casted now MaxPax is a top 2 Protoss? since when? At least online you could argue Maxpax is a top 2 Protoss, though I don't think we should put too much stock in online results. Second best Protoss is really hard to say right now, maybe Creator? I think Trap is probably better right now than we're giving him credit for (unless he's in total pre retirement mode), he got ro4 in the first GSL this year and just hasn't played anything since his narrow elimination in season 2. Zoun is also pretty good but always seems to look good in elimination without a super deep run to show for it.
Showtime and Neeb are still better than MaxPax IMO, and Astrea is also putting out great matches
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On August 02 2022 08:12 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2022 16:17 dbRic1203 wrote:
That Lineup looks absolutly stacked
Top 4 Zergs are there
Top 2 Protoss are there (not realy Sure who comes after herO and MaxPax currently, Neeb? Astrea? Trap? Showtime? 2 of them are there as well)
For Terran we miss Maru and Clem I gues but Heromarine and Bunny are decent standins I gues..
A little diapointed, that it s only one day, having the Ro16 on Saturday and Ro8 onwards on Sunday would have been amazing.
There are so many great games that aren t going to be casted now MaxPax is a top 2 Protoss? since when?
MaxPax PvP is clearly No.1, then his PvT has also been improving, beating top EU Terran quite regularly. He still have some problem with KR Terran with their timing push and cheesy strats but so are other Protoss not named herO. Outside of herO, there isnt a clearly better PvT player than MaxPax at the moment. And his PvZ is a bit inconsistent, but he can play the wide range of opening, kinda similar to how Zest played in the previous patch. I think Neeb/Astrea/Showtime are a bit more consistent then MaxPax in PvZ at this moment but I still see great potential in him. So I think its not out of mind to say that MaxPax is the 2nd best Protoss in the world, unless Trap flipped the switch and become Trap of 12 months ago.
The problem has been that big tournament are back offline and MaxPax isnt there to show his prowess, so nobody can really see if he has improved his game or not. We dont all watch EPT Open cup, sorry.
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the champ is here as well!
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No replay pack on Matcherino?;;
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2000$ out of 5000$ for first Place with only 375$ for top 4 seems insanly top heavy
But more SC2 > less SC2 I gues
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Nice to have a tournament that you can watch from start to finish in one day once in a while. Thanks for organizing this. Will definitely be watching and spreading the word.
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Player Replacement:
(T)TIME => (Z)soO due to personal schedule conflict
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And Rogue is out after 20 minutes just like that.
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Did Dark forget you can't transfuse off creep on this patch?
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I think he just doesnt care
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4 TvZ and 3 Zerg in Ro4, nice result.
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On August 20 2022 21:29 tigera6 wrote:
4 TvZ and 3 Zerg in Ro4, nice result.
Good to see everything is back to normal!
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another zvz tournament nice
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I'm a bit confused why soO has been only attacking from that one angle on that one location for the last ten minutes?
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On August 20 2022 21:59 Captain Peabody wrote:
I'm a bit confused why soO has been only attacking from that one angle on that one location for the last ten minutes?
soO has a long and complicated history against late game turtling terrans 
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Canada8988 Posts
soO is giving me PDST, this is so fucking dumb
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On August 20 2022 22:04 Nakajin wrote:
soO is giving me PDST, this is so fucking dumb
and he's going to win!
what a world.
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lol NOW he hangs back and waits for Neural Parasite to finish
never change, soO
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Canada8988 Posts
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ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
well, that was quite an ending, at least
but evil wins
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I feel like if Byun didn't yolo at the end he would have won? I think the second to last trade was more than good enough for him to mule another base. Maybe he didn't have many orbitals left idk, or didn't realize how broke soO was.
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On August 20 2022 22:14 dysenterymd wrote:
I feel like if Byun didn't yolo at the end he would have won? I think the second to last trade was more than good enough for him to mule another base. Maybe he didn't have many orbitals left idk
yeah if he just killed the drones with the medivac drop and then retreats I think he wins.
Though maybe the Vipers would've yoinked the medivacs idk
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On August 20 2022 22:19 Captain Peabody wrote:
what a great series
Veterans players are so exciting to watch. It s because they are playing with the spirit of "what sc2 could be...", with less APM and aggressivity. SC2 deserves to get patched again....
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wins a 30 minute game and then instantly loses to two 2/1/1s...
edit: I guess the game continues on for now
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byun gets pissed off by that first game (reasonably) and just kills him. makes sense.
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I would enjoy to see less Lurkers .... Because Lurkers counter every type of unit and they are only vulnerable to ghost in ZvT (and they are created by dozens...)
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Serral not wasting any time, just butchering everything and everyone.
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Funny to see Serral winning the mindgames but losing the straight up roach game
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Dark got good lead on the first 2 games and lost, then he was behind in game 3 and win. This is falling into the narrative.
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Wow good catch up from Dark!
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I respect the full commitment to an army fight from Serral right after losing his roach warren and hydra den and while not remaking either.
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On August 20 2022 23:25 Elentos wrote:
I respect the full commitment to an army fight from Serral right after losing his roach warren and hydra den and while not remaking either.
I think struggling is respectfull too, but you can t win matchs without army and structures
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Serral could have a chance with burrow upgrade which cost 50/50, he would have save all his drones...
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Well that sure was a build.
Honestly if Serral didn't attack in so many times it might have worked.
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On August 20 2022 23:40 dysenterymd wrote:
Well that sure was a build.
Honestly if Serral didn't attack in so many times it might have worked.
It s good to watch variations in build orders, i like !!! except in PvZ because most openers are from stargate 
I hate more PvZ than ZvZ now ....
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On August 20 2022 23:46 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2022 23:40 dysenterymd wrote:
Well that sure was a build.
Honestly if Serral didn't attack in so many times it might have worked. It s good to watch variations in build orders, i like !!! except in PvZ because most openers are from stargate I hate more PvZ than ZvZ now ....
I find it interesting that this bothers you now when stargate has been the best way to open against Zerg for almost 10 years (outside of very committed early attacks). Especially because there's great variability of what happens after the stargate.
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same old T v Reynor lategame.
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On August 20 2022 23:54 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2022 23:46 Vision_ wrote:On August 20 2022 23:40 dysenterymd wrote:
Well that sure was a build.
Honestly if Serral didn't attack in so many times it might have worked. It s good to watch variations in build orders, i like !!! except in PvZ because most openers are from stargate I hate more PvZ than ZvZ now .... I find it interesting that this bothers you now when stargate has been the best way to open against Zerg for almost 10 years (outside of very committed early attacks). Especially because there's great variability of what happens after the stargate.
It s more about 6 years LoTV has been released. And even that s not the case at the start of LoTV that stargate was the main opener, you are assuming to say that WoL and HotS have the same meta than LotV...
Then maybe you can satisfy yourself about watching at the same builds for years but not me
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On August 21 2022 00:28 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2022 23:54 Elentos wrote:On August 20 2022 23:46 Vision_ wrote:On August 20 2022 23:40 dysenterymd wrote:
Well that sure was a build.
Honestly if Serral didn't attack in so many times it might have worked. It s good to watch variations in build orders, i like !!! except in PvZ because most openers are from stargate I hate more PvZ than ZvZ now .... I find it interesting that this bothers you now when stargate has been the best way to open against Zerg for almost 10 years (outside of very committed early attacks). Especially because there's great variability of what happens after the stargate. It s more about 6 years LoTV has been released. And even that s not the case at the start of LoTV that stargate was the main opener, you are assuming to say that WoL and HotS have the same meta than LotV... Then maybe you can satisfy yourself about watching at the same builds for years but not me
Stargate has been the standard tech route in macro PvZ for 10 years, even when oracles didn't even exist. I don't disagree with you that LotV killed a lot of diversity in openers (since we're talking about PvZ, forge expands for one), but PvZ hasn't changed all that much.
If you open robo or twilight, you're basically all-inning. Perhaps if you changed observers to be as fast as a phoenix, robo openers would be more common. There is no real change that can be done to prevent it (as shown by the fact that it survived two expansions and still is the best tech route) as the map control and harassment stargates give you is just too good if you plan on playing a macro game.
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Talking about SG opening in a tournament where no Protoss making it pass Ro16 is so funny.
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On August 21 2022 01:07 tigera6 wrote:
Talking about SG opening in a tournament where no Protoss making it pass Ro16 is so funny.
What do you mean? Reynor is playing protoss in the finals
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Since yesterday we had people doubting whether Reynor can make it through his GSL group at all, will we today see an influx of people celebrating him as the first non-Korean to win Code S?
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On August 21 2022 01:23 Elentos wrote:
Since yesterday we had people doubting whether Reynor can make it through his GSL group at all, will we today see an influx of people celebrating him as the first non-Korean to win Code S?
I won't. I still have doubts, unfortunately.
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On August 21 2022 01:35 Xain0n wrote:
Definitely amusing
Embarassing for Protoss,
Isn t it ?
ps : if i would have been protoss players at the moment i would have retired because of shame
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On August 21 2022 01:40 Vision_ wrote:Embarassing for Protoss, Isn t it ?
More like embarassing for Dark. That choice of build was questionable at best, on a map where you can defend 3 bases on a single choke.
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Wait Reynor gets to choose what race to play for each map, and he can change after that map picks/bans? So he can play all favored maps, that doesn't seem fair
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On August 21 2022 01:43 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 01:40 Vision_ wrote:On August 21 2022 01:35 Xain0n wrote:
Definitely amusing Embarassing for Protoss, Isn t it ? More like embarassing for Dark. That choice of build was questionable at best, on a map where you can defend 3 bases on a single choke.
What is questionnable is to see Reynor warp more units than a normal protoss pro player, with a high count of drones
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On August 21 2022 01:45 Die4Ever wrote:
Wait Reynor gets to choose what race to play for each map, and he can change after that map picks/bans? So he can play all favored maps, that doesn't seem fair
That's the ESL ruleset btw.
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On August 21 2022 01:45 Die4Ever wrote:
Wait Reynor gets to choose what race to play for each map, and he can change after that map picks/bans? So he can play all favored maps, that doesn't seem fair
That's ESL for you. Once again, korean supremacy.
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On August 21 2022 01:46 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 01:45 Die4Ever wrote:
Wait Reynor gets to choose what race to play for each map, and he can change after that map picks/bans? So he can play all favored maps, that doesn't seem fair That's the ESL ruleset btw.
Yep don't like it there either
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ESL is becoming more of a joke at this point, mis-handle several things during their time running the tournaments. Hope that they dont get extended by Blizzard, unless thats the only choice.
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On August 21 2022 01:46 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 01:46 Elentos wrote:On August 21 2022 01:45 Die4Ever wrote:
Wait Reynor gets to choose what race to play for each map, and he can change after that map picks/bans? So he can play all favored maps, that doesn't seem fair That's the ESL ruleset btw. Yep don't like it there either
one of the goal of a rule is to promote egality, that s why all opponents are free to chose their race before playing a map. Tournament is here for represent players, not a single race
Third openers stargate inc
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On August 21 2022 01:56 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 01:46 Die4Ever wrote:On August 21 2022 01:46 Elentos wrote:On August 21 2022 01:45 Die4Ever wrote:
Wait Reynor gets to choose what race to play for each map, and he can change after that map picks/bans? So he can play all favored maps, that doesn't seem fair That's the ESL ruleset btw. Yep don't like it there either one of the goal of a rule is to promote egality, that s why all opponents are free to chose their race before playing a map. Tournament is here for represent players, not a single race Third openers stargate inc
Choose your race before the map picks/bans, otherwise you're exploiting the variety of the map pool, otherwise we're gonna end up with a boring map pool with nearly identical maps in order to ensure balance
I'm not saying Reynor IS exploiting this, I'm saying that he COULD, which means the rules have a weakness
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On August 21 2022 01:55 tigera6 wrote:
ESL is becoming more of a joke at this point, mis-handle several things during their time running the tournaments. Hope that they dont get extended by Blizzard, unless thats the only choice.
Doubt Blizzard cares even one bit at this point tbh
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On August 21 2022 02:06 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 01:55 tigera6 wrote:
ESL is becoming more of a joke at this point, mis-handle several things during their time running the tournaments. Hope that they dont get extended by Blizzard, unless thats the only choice. Doubt Blizzard cares even one bit at this point tbh
Yeah no way Blizzard cares at all, will be interesting to see if Microsoft changes anything
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94 drones, let s see if dark will die....
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gg no re
stargate into > 95 drones into > warping gateway units like a boss + high tier unit into > win
Did you talk of this route since 10 years ?
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Why did Reynor choose Zerg now for this map?
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On August 21 2022 01:56 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 01:46 Die4Ever wrote:On August 21 2022 01:46 Elentos wrote:On August 21 2022 01:45 Die4Ever wrote:
Wait Reynor gets to choose what race to play for each map, and he can change after that map picks/bans? So he can play all favored maps, that doesn't seem fair That's the ESL ruleset btw. Yep don't like it there either one of the goal of a rule is to promote egality, that s why all opponents are free to chose their race before playing a map. Tournament is here for represent players, not a single race Third openers stargate inc
and what should be done if everyone would try to pick their own matchups (e.g. Reynor wanting to play PvZ and his opponent wanting to switch to terran vs his Toss)? Let it get decided by a coinflip? Doesn't seem like egality
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On August 21 2022 01:55 tigera6 wrote:
ESL is becoming more of a joke at this point, mis-handle several things during their time running the tournaments. Hope that they dont get extended by Blizzard, unless thats the only choice.
If you wanna keep watching professional SC2 you better hope that deal gets extended. Without that 3 year deal with ESL the scene would already be dead.
Not to mention, there's nobody around who'd do better.
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On August 21 2022 01:46 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 01:45 Die4Ever wrote:
Wait Reynor gets to choose what race to play for each map, and he can change after that map picks/bans? So he can play all favored maps, that doesn't seem fair That's the ESL ruleset btw.
This tournament isn't run by ESL, they can use their own rules.
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Canada8988 Posts
On August 21 2022 02:06 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 01:55 tigera6 wrote:
ESL is becoming more of a joke at this point, mis-handle several things during their time running the tournaments. Hope that they dont get extended by Blizzard, unless thats the only choice. Doubt Blizzard cares even one bit at this point tbh
With Heyoka leaving ESL, I'm not sure there's anyone who care that much their either on the admin side of thing. Obviously I can't exactly blame them for not having in place perfect race-switching map picks rules, but it does seems like they are just churning out their events the same way for a few years without to much reflexing.
Other organisers (TSL, Alpha X, WTL, TakeTV, Afreeca, ect..) are doing great thing though, so that's nice.
Still I much, much, prefer ESL running us on auto-pilot rather than no one at all.
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On August 21 2022 02:17 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 01:56 Vision_ wrote:On August 21 2022 01:46 Die4Ever wrote:On August 21 2022 01:46 Elentos wrote:On August 21 2022 01:45 Die4Ever wrote:
Wait Reynor gets to choose what race to play for each map, and he can change after that map picks/bans? So he can play all favored maps, that doesn't seem fair That's the ESL ruleset btw. Yep don't like it there either one of the goal of a rule is to promote egality, that s why all opponents are free to chose their race before playing a map. Tournament is here for represent players, not a single race Third openers stargate inc and what should be done if everyone would try to pick their own matchups (e.g. Reynor wanting to play PvZ and his opponent wanting to switch to terran vs his Toss)? Let it get decided by a coinflip? Doesn't seem like egality
It can be easily implemented, but that s new no ? and it s not like if a tons of players are changing race during a match.
Don t you remember Balloon ?
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On August 21 2022 02:17 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 01:56 Vision_ wrote:On August 21 2022 01:46 Die4Ever wrote:On August 21 2022 01:46 Elentos wrote:On August 21 2022 01:45 Die4Ever wrote:
Wait Reynor gets to choose what race to play for each map, and he can change after that map picks/bans? So he can play all favored maps, that doesn't seem fair That's the ESL ruleset btw. Yep don't like it there either one of the goal of a rule is to promote egality, that s why all opponents are free to chose their race before playing a map. Tournament is here for represent players, not a single race Third openers stargate inc and what should be done if everyone would try to pick their own matchups (e.g. Reynor wanting to play PvZ and his opponent wanting to switch to terran vs his Toss)? Let it get decided by a coinflip? Doesn't seem like egality
AFAIK if both players want to choose between races they'll have to do blindly before the game. I doubt Dark wants to offrace tho.
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If the rules aren't changed then I predict a scenario a year or two from now where players refuse to start games because they don't get the matchup they want. Reynor wants to play PvZ and Dark says we'll then I'll play Terran vs your Protoss which makes Reynor switch back to Zerg. Dark switches back to Zerg and Reynor switches back to Protoss. How do you fairly force the players to choose a race in that scenario with the current rules? ESL rules never have any forethought for worst case scenarios. Reynor should have to play Random if he wants to switch back and forth in single series.
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So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps
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On August 21 2022 02:19 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 02:17 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 01:56 Vision_ wrote:On August 21 2022 01:46 Die4Ever wrote:On August 21 2022 01:46 Elentos wrote:On August 21 2022 01:45 Die4Ever wrote:
Wait Reynor gets to choose what race to play for each map, and he can change after that map picks/bans? So he can play all favored maps, that doesn't seem fair That's the ESL ruleset btw. Yep don't like it there either one of the goal of a rule is to promote egality, that s why all opponents are free to chose their race before playing a map. Tournament is here for represent players, not a single race Third openers stargate inc and what should be done if everyone would try to pick their own matchups (e.g. Reynor wanting to play PvZ and his opponent wanting to switch to terran vs his Toss)? Let it get decided by a coinflip? Doesn't seem like egality It can be easily implemented, but that s new no ? and it s not like if a tons of players are changing race during a match. Don t you remember Balloon ?
Balloon actually had balls and played Random.
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On August 21 2022 02:20 RDO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 02:17 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 01:56 Vision_ wrote:On August 21 2022 01:46 Die4Ever wrote:On August 21 2022 01:46 Elentos wrote:On August 21 2022 01:45 Die4Ever wrote:
Wait Reynor gets to choose what race to play for each map, and he can change after that map picks/bans? So he can play all favored maps, that doesn't seem fair That's the ESL ruleset btw. Yep don't like it there either one of the goal of a rule is to promote egality, that s why all opponents are free to chose their race before playing a map. Tournament is here for represent players, not a single race Third openers stargate inc and what should be done if everyone would try to pick their own matchups (e.g. Reynor wanting to play PvZ and his opponent wanting to switch to terran vs his Toss)? Let it get decided by a coinflip? Doesn't seem like egality AFAIK if both players want to choose between races they'll have to do blindly before the game. I doubt Dark wants to offrace tho.
This answer to that situation will significantly lower the quality of play over time.
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On August 21 2022 02:15 Die4Ever wrote:
Why did Reynor choose Zerg now for this map?
Stargazer and Moondance are great PvZ map because of the in-base expansion and Reynor won both of those maps.
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On August 21 2022 02:20 RDO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 02:17 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 01:56 Vision_ wrote:On August 21 2022 01:46 Die4Ever wrote:On August 21 2022 01:46 Elentos wrote:On August 21 2022 01:45 Die4Ever wrote:
Wait Reynor gets to choose what race to play for each map, and he can change after that map picks/bans? So he can play all favored maps, that doesn't seem fair That's the ESL ruleset btw. Yep don't like it there either one of the goal of a rule is to promote egality, that s why all opponents are free to chose their race before playing a map. Tournament is here for represent players, not a single race Third openers stargate inc and what should be done if everyone would try to pick their own matchups (e.g. Reynor wanting to play PvZ and his opponent wanting to switch to terran vs his Toss)? Let it get decided by a coinflip? Doesn't seem like egality AFAIK if both players want to choose between races they'll have to do blindly before the game. I doubt Dark wants to offrace tho.
Which is basically a coinflip to decide who gets an advantage in the game. Not a very good solution. Also worth noting most players never had an incentive to practice their offraces because race-picking has historically been forbidden
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On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps
In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races.
I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point.
There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more.
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no re never, Zerg rape....
This is just insanely brutal and i m embarassing for PvZ now
Like Byun in TvZ WCS 2016, i think Reynor just show us how PvZ is broken
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more.
You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups.
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Canada8988 Posts
This is just another proof that nothing can stop a man with a dream and a meme
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On August 21 2022 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more. You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups.
If switching races gave that big of an advantage more pro's would be doing it. This sounds like people on the ladder who complain about random players not saying what race they are.
Reynor playing a second race at such a high skill level in a match up is awesome. Him being a zerg player for years and suddenly playing protoss is fun. This entire thread has been hi jacked by it.
This makes Starcraft more interesting. People complaining sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons who cant stand change, which ironically is what kills interest in Starcraft. Change is good. People playing the game in a different way makes it more interesting.
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On August 21 2022 02:59 Back2Back wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more. You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups. If switching races gave that big of an advantage more pro's would be doing it. This sounds like people on the ladder who complain about random players not saying what race they are. Reynor playing a second race at such a high skill level in a match up is awesome. Him being a zerg player for years and suddenly playing protoss is fun. This entire thread has been hi jacked by it. This makes Starcraft more interesting. People complaining sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons who cant stand change, which ironically is what kills interest in Starcraft. Change is good. People playing the game in a different way makes it more interesting.
Well pretty sure other zergs could just train like tvp or pvp to dodge reynors PvZ and if he would do the toss swap more often in premier events im pretty sure they would, which leads to stupid deadlocks.
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On August 21 2022 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more. You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups.
Yes, I think making players pick their race before vetos is the best solutions (or announce their race in advance for prep tournaments.) Was more just pushing back against some of the reactions.
On another note, defending against committed attacks seems to be a bit of a weakness for Reynor's toss. His standard play is very crisp though.
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On August 21 2022 02:59 Back2Back wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more. You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups. If switching races gave that big of an advantage more pro's would be doing it. This sounds like people on the ladder who complain about random players not saying what race they are. Reynor playing a second race at such a high skill level in a match up is awesome. Him being a zerg player for years and suddenly playing protoss is fun. This entire thread has been hi jacked by it. This makes Starcraft more interesting. People complaining sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons who cant stand change, which ironically is what kills interest in Starcraft. Change is good. People playing the game in a different way makes it more interesting.
I can hardly blame people for wanting the competition to be fair. Though even outside of raceswapping, it already isn't as koreans can't play in foreign events but foreigners can play in GSL
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On August 21 2022 02:59 Back2Back wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more. You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups. If switching races gave that big of an advantage more pro's would be doing it. This sounds like people on the ladder who complain about random players not saying what race they are. Reynor playing a second race at such a high skill level in a match up is awesome. Him being a zerg player for years and suddenly playing protoss is fun. This entire thread has been hi jacked by it. This makes Starcraft more interesting. People complaining sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons who cant stand change, which ironically is what kills interest in Starcraft. Change is good. People playing the game in a different way makes it more interesting.
I already explained why more pros aren't doing it. Because it has historically been forbidden and in GSL still is.
Gumiho and TLO played random in the beginning of sc2 and Flash in bw and random has way more disadvantages and less advantages so if race-picking had been allowed from the beginning I could totally see there being a few race-pickers in the scene which would lead to the mentioned problematic scenario. That's why it's a sensible rule to disallow it and I don't feel that great about them allowing it now for Reynor.
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On August 21 2022 03:02 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 02:59 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more. You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups. If switching races gave that big of an advantage more pro's would be doing it. This sounds like people on the ladder who complain about random players not saying what race they are. Reynor playing a second race at such a high skill level in a match up is awesome. Him being a zerg player for years and suddenly playing protoss is fun. This entire thread has been hi jacked by it. This makes Starcraft more interesting. People complaining sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons who cant stand change, which ironically is what kills interest in Starcraft. Change is good. People playing the game in a different way makes it more interesting. I can hardly blame people for wanting the competition to be fair. Though even outside of raceswapping, it already isn't as koreans can't play in foreign events but foreigners can play in GSL
Ah, they can't? Are you sure?
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On August 21 2022 02:59 Back2Back wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more. You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups. If switching races gave that big of an advantage more pro's would be doing it. This sounds like people on the ladder who complain about random players not saying what race they are. Reynor playing a second race at such a high skill level in a match up is awesome. Him being a zerg player for years and suddenly playing protoss is fun. This entire thread has been hi jacked by it. This makes Starcraft more interesting. People complaining sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons who cant stand change, which ironically is what kills interest in Starcraft. Change is good. People playing the game in a different way makes it more interesting.
Why dont you keep the same intensity when it comes to map pool and balance change? Apparently off-racing is a deal-breaker for you to see if the game is interesting or not, but not the other things?
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On August 21 2022 03:10 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 03:02 Durnuu wrote:On August 21 2022 02:59 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more. You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups. If switching races gave that big of an advantage more pro's would be doing it. This sounds like people on the ladder who complain about random players not saying what race they are. Reynor playing a second race at such a high skill level in a match up is awesome. Him being a zerg player for years and suddenly playing protoss is fun. This entire thread has been hi jacked by it. This makes Starcraft more interesting. People complaining sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons who cant stand change, which ironically is what kills interest in Starcraft. Change is good. People playing the game in a different way makes it more interesting. I can hardly blame people for wanting the competition to be fair. Though even outside of raceswapping, it already isn't as koreans can't play in foreign events but foreigners can play in GSL Ah, they can't? Are you sure?
I'm fairly certain the region lock from old WCS was kept in the EPT, so while TECHNICALLY koreans can play in EU or NA, the requirements are much stiffer for that than it is for foreigners to play in GSL.
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I can t believe people here are talking about rules while Dark is being rape by ReyToss
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On August 21 2022 03:10 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 03:02 Durnuu wrote:On August 21 2022 02:59 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more. You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups. If switching races gave that big of an advantage more pro's would be doing it. This sounds like people on the ladder who complain about random players not saying what race they are. Reynor playing a second race at such a high skill level in a match up is awesome. Him being a zerg player for years and suddenly playing protoss is fun. This entire thread has been hi jacked by it. This makes Starcraft more interesting. People complaining sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons who cant stand change, which ironically is what kills interest in Starcraft. Change is good. People playing the game in a different way makes it more interesting. I can hardly blame people for wanting the competition to be fair. Though even outside of raceswapping, it already isn't as koreans can't play in foreign events but foreigners can play in GSL Ah, they can't? Are you sure?
The only tournaments that are region-lock at this point are DH Event other than the Global Final. And I get it that weaker region need to protect its players base, but if EU has been comparable to KR, whats the problem with having KR playing?
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On August 21 2022 03:02 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 02:59 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more. You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups. If switching races gave that big of an advantage more pro's would be doing it. This sounds like people on the ladder who complain about random players not saying what race they are. Reynor playing a second race at such a high skill level in a match up is awesome. Him being a zerg player for years and suddenly playing protoss is fun. This entire thread has been hi jacked by it. This makes Starcraft more interesting. People complaining sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons who cant stand change, which ironically is what kills interest in Starcraft. Change is good. People playing the game in a different way makes it more interesting. I already explained why more pros aren't doing it. Because it has historically been forbidden and in GSL still is. Gumiho and TLO played random in the beginning of sc2 and Flash in bw and random has way more disadvantages and less advantages so if race-picking has been allowed from the beginning I could totally see there being a few race-pickers in the scene which would lead to the mentioned problematic scenario. That's why it's a sensible rule to disallow it and I don't feel that great about them allowing it now for Reynor.
Just because it's been historically doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. Sports go through rule changes to make the game more interesting all the time.
I see people saying it's unfair. But it's obviously disadvantageous for the race switcher. They have to learn another race. Maybe not to the same level as a random player. But I think most pros do not have another race even close to the same level as their main.
Reynor being this good at an off race is an expression of skill. The way he plays protoss is different than other protosses. It makes the game more interesting IMO.
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On August 21 2022 03:19 Back2Back wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 03:02 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:59 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more. You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups. If switching races gave that big of an advantage more pro's would be doing it. This sounds like people on the ladder who complain about random players not saying what race they are. Reynor playing a second race at such a high skill level in a match up is awesome. Him being a zerg player for years and suddenly playing protoss is fun. This entire thread has been hi jacked by it. This makes Starcraft more interesting. People complaining sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons who cant stand change, which ironically is what kills interest in Starcraft. Change is good. People playing the game in a different way makes it more interesting. I already explained why more pros aren't doing it. Because it has historically been forbidden and in GSL still is. Gumiho and TLO played random in the beginning of sc2 and Flash in bw and random has way more disadvantages and less advantages so if race-picking has been allowed from the beginning I could totally see there being a few race-pickers in the scene which would lead to the mentioned problematic scenario. That's why it's a sensible rule to disallow it and I don't feel that great about them allowing it now for Reynor. Just because it's been historically doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. Sports go through rule changes to make the game more interesting all the time. I see people saying it's unfair. But it's obviously disadvantageous for the race switcher. They have to learn another race. Maybe not to the same level as a random player. But I think most pros do not have another race even close to the same level as their main. Reynor being this good at an off race is an expression of skill. The way he plays protoss is different than other protosses. It makes the game more interesting IMO.
And as many ppl told you already as soon as he runs into someone who has a good offrace too and feels comfortable with it vs his offrace you run into the dumb situation described.
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Kind of funny how for all this talk of mid-series race switching, Reynor's Zerg did nothing for him this series (other than maybe changing the order Dark picked maps.) Not that that has much bearing on the conversation about race switching in theory, just amusing.
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Canada8988 Posts
On August 21 2022 03:21 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 03:19 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 03:02 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:59 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more. You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups. If switching races gave that big of an advantage more pro's would be doing it. This sounds like people on the ladder who complain about random players not saying what race they are. Reynor playing a second race at such a high skill level in a match up is awesome. Him being a zerg player for years and suddenly playing protoss is fun. This entire thread has been hi jacked by it. This makes Starcraft more interesting. People complaining sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons who cant stand change, which ironically is what kills interest in Starcraft. Change is good. People playing the game in a different way makes it more interesting. I already explained why more pros aren't doing it. Because it has historically been forbidden and in GSL still is. Gumiho and TLO played random in the beginning of sc2 and Flash in bw and random has way more disadvantages and less advantages so if race-picking has been allowed from the beginning I could totally see there being a few race-pickers in the scene which would lead to the mentioned problematic scenario. That's why it's a sensible rule to disallow it and I don't feel that great about them allowing it now for Reynor. Just because it's been historically doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. Sports go through rule changes to make the game more interesting all the time. I see people saying it's unfair. But it's obviously disadvantageous for the race switcher. They have to learn another race. Maybe not to the same level as a random player. But I think most pros do not have another race even close to the same level as their main. Reynor being this good at an off race is an expression of skill. The way he plays protoss is different than other protosses. It makes the game more interesting IMO. And as many ppl told you already as soon as he runs into someone who has a good offrace too and feels comfortable with it vs his offrace you run into the dumb situation described.
I mean, you just make it blind and the problem is solved. Also it never happen.
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I appreciate the gall to blink under broods when there's ultras RIGHT THERE
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On August 21 2022 03:21 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 03:19 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 03:02 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:59 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more. You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups. If switching races gave that big of an advantage more pro's would be doing it. This sounds like people on the ladder who complain about random players not saying what race they are. Reynor playing a second race at such a high skill level in a match up is awesome. Him being a zerg player for years and suddenly playing protoss is fun. This entire thread has been hi jacked by it. This makes Starcraft more interesting. People complaining sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons who cant stand change, which ironically is what kills interest in Starcraft. Change is good. People playing the game in a different way makes it more interesting. I already explained why more pros aren't doing it. Because it has historically been forbidden and in GSL still is. Gumiho and TLO played random in the beginning of sc2 and Flash in bw and random has way more disadvantages and less advantages so if race-picking has been allowed from the beginning I could totally see there being a few race-pickers in the scene which would lead to the mentioned problematic scenario. That's why it's a sensible rule to disallow it and I don't feel that great about them allowing it now for Reynor. Just because it's been historically doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. Sports go through rule changes to make the game more interesting all the time. I see people saying it's unfair. But it's obviously disadvantageous for the race switcher. They have to learn another race. Maybe not to the same level as a random player. But I think most pros do not have another race even close to the same level as their main. Reynor being this good at an off race is an expression of skill. The way he plays protoss is different than other protosses. It makes the game more interesting IMO. And as many ppl told you already as soon as he runs into someone who has a good offrace too and feels comfortable with it vs his offrace you run into the dumb situation described.
Well that is a moot point cause no one else is doing this.
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On August 21 2022 03:27 Back2Back wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 03:21 darklycid wrote:On August 21 2022 03:19 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 03:02 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:59 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more. You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups. If switching races gave that big of an advantage more pro's would be doing it. This sounds like people on the ladder who complain about random players not saying what race they are. Reynor playing a second race at such a high skill level in a match up is awesome. Him being a zerg player for years and suddenly playing protoss is fun. This entire thread has been hi jacked by it. This makes Starcraft more interesting. People complaining sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons who cant stand change, which ironically is what kills interest in Starcraft. Change is good. People playing the game in a different way makes it more interesting. I already explained why more pros aren't doing it. Because it has historically been forbidden and in GSL still is. Gumiho and TLO played random in the beginning of sc2 and Flash in bw and random has way more disadvantages and less advantages so if race-picking has been allowed from the beginning I could totally see there being a few race-pickers in the scene which would lead to the mentioned problematic scenario. That's why it's a sensible rule to disallow it and I don't feel that great about them allowing it now for Reynor. Just because it's been historically doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. Sports go through rule changes to make the game more interesting all the time. I see people saying it's unfair. But it's obviously disadvantageous for the race switcher. They have to learn another race. Maybe not to the same level as a random player. But I think most pros do not have another race even close to the same level as their main. Reynor being this good at an off race is an expression of skill. The way he plays protoss is different than other protosses. It makes the game more interesting IMO. And as many ppl told you already as soon as he runs into someone who has a good offrace too and feels comfortable with it vs his offrace you run into the dumb situation described. Well that is a moot point cause no one else is doing this.
Maru played Protoss in TSL qualifiers.
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Canada8988 Posts
No fun zerg killing protoss people hopes once again
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On August 21 2022 03:28 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 03:27 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 03:21 darklycid wrote:On August 21 2022 03:19 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 03:02 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:59 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more. You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups. If switching races gave that big of an advantage more pro's would be doing it. This sounds like people on the ladder who complain about random players not saying what race they are. Reynor playing a second race at such a high skill level in a match up is awesome. Him being a zerg player for years and suddenly playing protoss is fun. This entire thread has been hi jacked by it. This makes Starcraft more interesting. People complaining sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons who cant stand change, which ironically is what kills interest in Starcraft. Change is good. People playing the game in a different way makes it more interesting. I already explained why more pros aren't doing it. Because it has historically been forbidden and in GSL still is. Gumiho and TLO played random in the beginning of sc2 and Flash in bw and random has way more disadvantages and less advantages so if race-picking has been allowed from the beginning I could totally see there being a few race-pickers in the scene which would lead to the mentioned problematic scenario. That's why it's a sensible rule to disallow it and I don't feel that great about them allowing it now for Reynor. Just because it's been historically doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. Sports go through rule changes to make the game more interesting all the time. I see people saying it's unfair. But it's obviously disadvantageous for the race switcher. They have to learn another race. Maybe not to the same level as a random player. But I think most pros do not have another race even close to the same level as their main. Reynor being this good at an off race is an expression of skill. The way he plays protoss is different than other protosses. It makes the game more interesting IMO. And as many ppl told you already as soon as he runs into someone who has a good offrace too and feels comfortable with it vs his offrace you run into the dumb situation described. Well that is a moot point cause no one else is doing this. Maru played Protoss in TSL qualifiers.
And that was fun wasn't it?
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Maybe Reynor shouldn't have race switched in the middle of the series
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On August 21 2022 03:19 Back2Back wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 03:02 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:59 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more. You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups. If switching races gave that big of an advantage more pro's would be doing it. This sounds like people on the ladder who complain about random players not saying what race they are. Reynor playing a second race at such a high skill level in a match up is awesome. Him being a zerg player for years and suddenly playing protoss is fun. This entire thread has been hi jacked by it. This makes Starcraft more interesting. People complaining sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons who cant stand change, which ironically is what kills interest in Starcraft. Change is good. People playing the game in a different way makes it more interesting. I already explained why more pros aren't doing it. Because it has historically been forbidden and in GSL still is. Gumiho and TLO played random in the beginning of sc2 and Flash in bw and random has way more disadvantages and less advantages so if race-picking has been allowed from the beginning I could totally see there being a few race-pickers in the scene which would lead to the mentioned problematic scenario. That's why it's a sensible rule to disallow it and I don't feel that great about them allowing it now for Reynor. Just because it's been historically doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. Sports go through rule changes to make the game more interesting all the time.
There was a good reason though why it has historically been forbidden and the only reason allowing it works now is because it used to be forbidden (meaning most players didn't practice their offraces)
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On August 21 2022 03:30 Back2Back wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 03:28 Durnuu wrote:On August 21 2022 03:27 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 03:21 darklycid wrote:On August 21 2022 03:19 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 03:02 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:59 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more. You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups. If switching races gave that big of an advantage more pro's would be doing it. This sounds like people on the ladder who complain about random players not saying what race they are. Reynor playing a second race at such a high skill level in a match up is awesome. Him being a zerg player for years and suddenly playing protoss is fun. This entire thread has been hi jacked by it. This makes Starcraft more interesting. People complaining sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons who cant stand change, which ironically is what kills interest in Starcraft. Change is good. People playing the game in a different way makes it more interesting. I already explained why more pros aren't doing it. Because it has historically been forbidden and in GSL still is. Gumiho and TLO played random in the beginning of sc2 and Flash in bw and random has way more disadvantages and less advantages so if race-picking has been allowed from the beginning I could totally see there being a few race-pickers in the scene which would lead to the mentioned problematic scenario. That's why it's a sensible rule to disallow it and I don't feel that great about them allowing it now for Reynor. Just because it's been historically doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. Sports go through rule changes to make the game more interesting all the time. I see people saying it's unfair. But it's obviously disadvantageous for the race switcher. They have to learn another race. Maybe not to the same level as a random player. But I think most pros do not have another race even close to the same level as their main. Reynor being this good at an off race is an expression of skill. The way he plays protoss is different than other protosses. It makes the game more interesting IMO. And as many ppl told you already as soon as he runs into someone who has a good offrace too and feels comfortable with it vs his offrace you run into the dumb situation described. Well that is a moot point cause no one else is doing this. Maru played Protoss in TSL qualifiers. And that was fun wasn't it?
No, but the games would have been just as shit if he played his main race. Just too much better than the opposition.
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Korean wannabes being mad at a foreigner offracing
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Canada8988 Posts
On August 21 2022 03:30 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2022 03:19 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 03:02 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:59 Back2Back wrote:On August 21 2022 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2022 02:38 dysenterymd wrote:On August 21 2022 02:22 Die4Ever wrote:
So if you've got a PvZ bo3, and you have 3 maps that have 55%, 45%, and 50% winrates for protoss, it's basically balanced with an average win rate of 50%
But if you decide to change races to instead play the mirror on the weak map, then you've changed the average win rate of the map pool to 51.7% in your favor
it doesn't sound like a huge difference but it's an exploit of the map pool that doesn't need to exist and it can become more amplified with a longer series and some outlier maps In theory, but this assumes that the race switcher is equally skilled with both their races. I think it's valid to ban race switching mid series, but a lot of reactions in this thread (not yours) are hilariously over the top. At this point there's more evidence of race switching hurting Reynor than there is of it helping him (like struggling to qualify for TSL and losing to Elazer in HSC), even if Reynor manages to win this series. Arguably Reynor needs more time practicing with toss to reap the theoretical benefits of race switching, but that's just speculation at this point. There also seems to be no serious movement among non Reynor players towards race switching, so the dark future of race pick rock-paper scissors is also pure catastrophizing. GSL rulesets prohibit it, but if there were some secret reward awaiting you'd expect foreign players to attempt it more. You're of course right that right now it's unlikely we get that scenario but I don't think potentially problematic rules should be maintained just to benefit 1 player. And yes, in theory it's a problematic rule because it's entirely sensible that you can't allow all players to pick their own matchups. If switching races gave that big of an advantage more pro's would be doing it. This sounds like people on the ladder who complain about random players not saying what race they are. Reynor playing a second race at such a high skill level in a match up is awesome. Him being a zerg player for years and suddenly playing protoss is fun. This entire thread has been hi jacked by it. This makes Starcraft more interesting. People complaining sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons who cant stand change, which ironically is what kills interest in Starcraft. Change is good. People playing the game in a different way makes it more interesting. I already explained why more pros aren't doing it. Because it has historically been forbidden and in GSL still is. Gumiho and TLO played random in the beginning of sc2 and Flash in bw and random has way more disadvantages and less advantages so if race-picking has been allowed from the beginning I could totally see there being a few race-pickers in the scene which would lead to the mentioned problematic scenario. That's why it's a sensible rule to disallow it and I don't feel that great about them allowing it now for Reynor. Just because it's been historically doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. Sports go through rule changes to make the game more interesting all the time. There was a good reason though why it has historically been forbidden and the only reason allowing it works now is because it used to be forbidden (meaning most players didn't practice their offraces)
And Reynor did put in the work so now it's working, other players will just have to practice their off-race then if it's so good (which I highly doubt tbh). It's not like he has any advantage over anyone else.
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It seems pretty clear to me that the best general policy is for players to be able to pick any race for any series, but not switch map-to-map.
I don't think Reynor's current activities are in any way a problem for the scene, though, or harm competitive integrity. They are generally interesting and good fun.
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I had a dream, but Dark adapted so well in the last 2 games.
Reynor still doesn't have the experience with P to be so fluid.
Also for the memes: he lost because of the ZvZ, 3-3 with Protoss, 0-1 with Zerg
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any games worth watching? I missed the livestream
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On August 21 2022 17:59 SHODAN wrote:
any games worth watching? I missed the livestream
Game 7 of the finals was super fun. Finals in general were good.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/629014224873455616/1003515068807389284/Gfuel_Gladiator_Cup_raynor2.png?width=1196&height=673)
