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Pretty cool PvP in Neeb/Gerald game 1.
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On July 30 2022 23:51 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2022 23:50 Waxangel wrote:On July 30 2022 23:48 Durnuu wrote:On July 30 2022 23:47 Waxangel wrote:On July 30 2022 23:40 Durnuu wrote:On July 30 2022 23:30 Waxangel wrote:On July 30 2022 23:14 Durnuu wrote:Man, this bracket is really badly seeded. Not only the top vs bottom half that a lot of people already pointed out, but quite a few same region matches (Time vs Meomaika, DRG vs GuMiho, Elazer vs Showtime, Byun vs Classic...) in the first round, which feels stupid in a tournament where you had REGIONAL qualifiers (and yes, I did make sure the players came from the same regional qualifier before criticizing). And the worst seeding goes to Ragnarok, Zoun, DRG and Gumiho, which makes it a KR vs KR into KR vs KR in both the winner and the losers bracket, in the first two rounds  Like, imagine if the format instead was a classic group stage. You get a Clem-Serral-soO-Solar group, and then you get a 4 korean group with Ragnarok, Zoun, DRG and Gumiho, and on the other side you have Creator-Rex-TIME-Meomaika why don't u start ur own tournament series without EPT points called "gnomestory cup" and just handseed all the players  What a mature and level-headed response. Extra funny that you want me to handseed all the players when my main criticism is not with the differing strength of the players but something more objective - the region they qualified from. also solvable with handseeding! Yeah, but why would I be like Apollo and rig my brackets if I have something more objective to base the seeding off of?  but those are the EPT points this bracket is seeded off of  Which makes no sense for an international tournament, since EPT points basically have two different circuits.
Who cares?
Goat Serral gonna win this tournament ez pz
Also rattata failed the sc2 community
Would have been funny to see Maru lose in this very easy bracket early on
User was temp banned for this post.
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Using Aligulac to seed is definitely much better to seed tournaments than EPT points, specially early in the season.
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United States33680 Posts
On July 31 2022 01:14 LostUsername100 wrote:
Using Aligulac to seed is definitely much better to seed tournaments than EPT points, specially early in the season.
I actually think this could be a pretty good idea, just because there aren't any other 'objective' ranking measures
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On July 31 2022 01:16 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2022 01:14 LostUsername100 wrote:
Using Aligulac to seed is definitely much better to seed tournaments than EPT points, specially early in the season. I actually think this could be a pretty good idea, just because there aren't any other 'objective' ranking measures
If you guys used Aligulac to seed I would rage. EPT points as flawed as they are at least are consistent with how other sports seed (Tennis), and are results driven relevant to the season.
I didn't know you guys were seeding with EPT points, when I made my first remarks about the bracket disparity. It's kind of a one off situation that guys like Gumiho are so low rated because he just got back to active status and missed some events.
It's better this way.
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On July 31 2022 01:20 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2022 01:16 Waxangel wrote:On July 31 2022 01:14 LostUsername100 wrote:
Using Aligulac to seed is definitely much better to seed tournaments than EPT points, specially early in the season. I actually think this could be a pretty good idea, just because there aren't any other 'objective' ranking measures If you guys used Aligulac to seed I would rage. EPT points as flawed as they are at least are consistent with how other sports seed (Tennis), and are results driven relevant to the season. I didn't know you guys were seeding with EPT points, when I made my first remarks about the bracket disparity. It's kind of a one off situation that guys like Gumiho are so low rated because he just got back to active status and missed some events. It's better this way.
You'd rage at getting better brackets? Interesting thing to "rage" at.
I'm not sure because Y does X, is a reason to do X.
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United States33680 Posts
damn, kelazhur beating special like it's 2017
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On July 31 2022 01:52 LostUsername100 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2022 01:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 31 2022 01:16 Waxangel wrote:On July 31 2022 01:14 LostUsername100 wrote:
Using Aligulac to seed is definitely much better to seed tournaments than EPT points, specially early in the season. I actually think this could be a pretty good idea, just because there aren't any other 'objective' ranking measures If you guys used Aligulac to seed I would rage. EPT points as flawed as they are at least are consistent with how other sports seed (Tennis), and are results driven relevant to the season. I didn't know you guys were seeding with EPT points, when I made my first remarks about the bracket disparity. It's kind of a one off situation that guys like Gumiho are so low rated because he just got back to active status and missed some events. It's better this way. You'd rage at getting better brackets? Interesting thing to "rage" at. I'm not sure because Y does X, is a reason to do X.
The brackets wouldn't be much better if they used Aligulac, and it would be one step further at "legitimizing" aligulac when Aligulac is already taken way more seriously than it should be.
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On July 31 2022 02:08 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2022 01:52 LostUsername100 wrote:On July 31 2022 01:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 31 2022 01:16 Waxangel wrote:On July 31 2022 01:14 LostUsername100 wrote:
Using Aligulac to seed is definitely much better to seed tournaments than EPT points, specially early in the season. I actually think this could be a pretty good idea, just because there aren't any other 'objective' ranking measures If you guys used Aligulac to seed I would rage. EPT points as flawed as they are at least are consistent with how other sports seed (Tennis), and are results driven relevant to the season. I didn't know you guys were seeding with EPT points, when I made my first remarks about the bracket disparity. It's kind of a one off situation that guys like Gumiho are so low rated because he just got back to active status and missed some events. It's better this way. You'd rage at getting better brackets? Interesting thing to "rage" at. I'm not sure because Y does X, is a reason to do X. The brackets wouldn't be much better if they used Aligulac, and it would be one step further at "legitimizing" aligulac when Aligulac is already taken way more seriously than it should be.
You have to be kidding to think brackets weren't going to be better with Aligulac.
Top10 Players on top side of bracket: #1 Serral #3 Reynor #5 herO #6Clem #8Byun
Top 10 players on bottom side of the bracket: #2 Maru
This sounds like some koreaboo copium from the fact Serral is #1 since 2018 pretty much.
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On July 31 2022 02:51 LostUsername100 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2022 02:08 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 31 2022 01:52 LostUsername100 wrote:On July 31 2022 01:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 31 2022 01:16 Waxangel wrote:On July 31 2022 01:14 LostUsername100 wrote:
Using Aligulac to seed is definitely much better to seed tournaments than EPT points, specially early in the season. I actually think this could be a pretty good idea, just because there aren't any other 'objective' ranking measures If you guys used Aligulac to seed I would rage. EPT points as flawed as they are at least are consistent with how other sports seed (Tennis), and are results driven relevant to the season. I didn't know you guys were seeding with EPT points, when I made my first remarks about the bracket disparity. It's kind of a one off situation that guys like Gumiho are so low rated because he just got back to active status and missed some events. It's better this way. You'd rage at getting better brackets? Interesting thing to "rage" at. I'm not sure because Y does X, is a reason to do X. The brackets wouldn't be much better if they used Aligulac, and it would be one step further at "legitimizing" aligulac when Aligulac is already taken way more seriously than it should be. You have to be kidding to think brackets weren't going to be better with Aligulac. Top10 Players on top side of bracket: #1 Serral #3 Reynor #5 herO #6Clem #8Byun Top 10 players on bottom side of the bracket: #2 Maru This sounds like some koreaboo copium from the fact Serral is #1 since 2018 pretty much.
No it's simply based on the fact I hate Aligulac and all of the people that worship it as "legit." I do not want to have tournaments start using it for seeding. EPT is all fucked up this season, TL should not have used it but AT THE VERY LEAST, they can't be blamed for using it because that's how Blizzcon's in the past have been seeded (I've always had issues with that too because of regionlocking) so it's an established if flawed way of drawing up brackets.
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On July 31 2022 03:04 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2022 02:51 LostUsername100 wrote:On July 31 2022 02:08 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 31 2022 01:52 LostUsername100 wrote:On July 31 2022 01:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 31 2022 01:16 Waxangel wrote:On July 31 2022 01:14 LostUsername100 wrote:
Using Aligulac to seed is definitely much better to seed tournaments than EPT points, specially early in the season. I actually think this could be a pretty good idea, just because there aren't any other 'objective' ranking measures If you guys used Aligulac to seed I would rage. EPT points as flawed as they are at least are consistent with how other sports seed (Tennis), and are results driven relevant to the season. I didn't know you guys were seeding with EPT points, when I made my first remarks about the bracket disparity. It's kind of a one off situation that guys like Gumiho are so low rated because he just got back to active status and missed some events. It's better this way. You'd rage at getting better brackets? Interesting thing to "rage" at. I'm not sure because Y does X, is a reason to do X. The brackets wouldn't be much better if they used Aligulac, and it would be one step further at "legitimizing" aligulac when Aligulac is already taken way more seriously than it should be. You have to be kidding to think brackets weren't going to be better with Aligulac. Top10 Players on top side of bracket: #1 Serral #3 Reynor #5 herO #6Clem #8Byun Top 10 players on bottom side of the bracket: #2 Maru This sounds like some koreaboo copium from the fact Serral is #1 since 2018 pretty much. No it's simply based on the fact I hate Aligulac and all of the people that worship it as "legit." I do not want to have tournaments start using it for seeding. EPT is all fucked up this season, TL should not have used it but AT THE VERY LEAST, they can't be blamed for using it because that's how Blizzcon's in the past have been seeded (I've always had issues with that too because of regionlocking) so it's an established if flawed way of drawing up brackets.
It has its problems, but it's probably still the best way one could do a seeding based on metrics. It seems to be fairly decent? The main problem is that it's obviously too slow to have the 'correct' seeding for any particular tournament, but that's an issue with any point based system tbh.
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Aligulac weights less important matches too heavily. For this reason Rogue has frequently been super underrated on Aligulac, as are players like Trap/Creator (despite Trap's slump, I don't think anyone in their right mind would rate him 20th in the world, nor would they say Creator is 26th.) In the other direction, I don't think it can be fairly argued that Maxpax, Byun, and Cure are top 10 players in the world rn. A system like aligulac that only took into account "premier" tournaments would be okay though.
Considering how quickly form can change in SC2 I don't think there's any perfect system. As long as formats are somewhat forgiving (like double elim) I can look past a few seeding problems.
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On July 31 2022 02:51 LostUsername100 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2022 02:08 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 31 2022 01:52 LostUsername100 wrote:On July 31 2022 01:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 31 2022 01:16 Waxangel wrote:On July 31 2022 01:14 LostUsername100 wrote:
Using Aligulac to seed is definitely much better to seed tournaments than EPT points, specially early in the season. I actually think this could be a pretty good idea, just because there aren't any other 'objective' ranking measures If you guys used Aligulac to seed I would rage. EPT points as flawed as they are at least are consistent with how other sports seed (Tennis), and are results driven relevant to the season. I didn't know you guys were seeding with EPT points, when I made my first remarks about the bracket disparity. It's kind of a one off situation that guys like Gumiho are so low rated because he just got back to active status and missed some events. It's better this way. You'd rage at getting better brackets? Interesting thing to "rage" at. I'm not sure because Y does X, is a reason to do X. The brackets wouldn't be much better if they used Aligulac, and it would be one step further at "legitimizing" aligulac when Aligulac is already taken way more seriously than it should be. This sounds like some koreaboo copium from the fact Serral is #1 since 2018 pretty much.
No need to name call when no one cared about aligulac until a foreigner made it to the top of its ranking. Imo it's super disingenuous to start caring about something (in this instance aligulac) just 'cause it supports my beliefs
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Canada8990 Posts
Since it the TeamLiquid Star League, we should neither use the EPT point system nor Aligulac but use a tried and true TL.net mesure.
Normaly I would have said a power ranking but since the TL staf is lazy only puttinf out like 5 articles a week (seriously though what the hell, you guys are machine) I vote for our very own GOAT contest, clearly the most fair and precise assessment of players true skills that has ever been done. Everyone that wasn't in it get DQ since they played in a post-INno world.
But on a more serious note, I think the EPT point ranking is generally quite good, but it did get somewhat disrupted by the fact that so many players skipped offline event.
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Should just seed based on qualifier results imo. Qualifying earlier = higher seed. First 4 to qualify from each region get to play against either the server qualifier players or 3rd qualifier players from a different region. People who qualified through the 2nd one play are in the same pool as NA/CN/LatAM. Limit matches against the same region as much as possible for first round.
Bonus of the above is it would provide more incentive to play in the first qualifier and you hopefully wouldn't have players slacking (Reynor) or simply skipping (Maru) in the first qualifier.
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Speaking of seeding can we take a moment to appreciate how unlucky Showtime is? Gets a somewhat difficult first round draw in Elazer ( could have been worse but could have been much easier), then gets Maru, and if he drops into the loser bracket he'll have to face the winner of DRG vs Ragnarok (who just got ro6 in two consecutive code S, and then probably one of soO or Solar. I think he has a chance to beat all those people except Maru, it's just funny how much tougher his road will be compared to other people dropping down into the losers bracket at that stage.
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All matches of the upper ro16 look really cool and most could go both ways. Hype!
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Careful guys, if you criticize the seeding too much Wax will descend upon you with his condescending tone.
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I think doing the seeding based on EPT points is pretty sensible, just because this time it resulted in some undesired results due to some special circumstances like Serral skipping DH Valencia and Gumiho needing a bit of time to get in shape after military doesn't mean the system is bad.
Changing the system just to adjust for those special circumstances would be pretty much handpicking in order to get your personal favored results so I understands Wax's objection.
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EPT
