I have come back to play and watch SC2 recently. I feel like all that made it fun and exciting before is no more. Also, everything seems so... unorganized.
So I thought, how can we try to do it better?
Gameplay: We have no power. Other than maps...
Tournaments: I was thinking if anyone wants to create a new tournament structure that promotes participating in different MMR ranges?
So tournament leagues are based on skill levels which makes it possible for everyone to win the prize and fame. Example:
- Main league: a unique league that you have to qualify for through the levels below. Consists of 32 players. button 16 have to qualify again
MMR +6000 + top 16 from 5500-5999: single elimination BO3 where the top 16 to qualify for the main league. 5500-5999: as many who want can play. single elimination 5000 - 5499: as many who want can play. single elimination And so on.
A bit like Code S and Code A. The tournament could be for a 4-6 months period so players do not have to play deciding matches when exhausted and not prepared. They would know who to prepare for weeks in advance.
Maps Have a big pool of good maps and randomly choose maps for each round. I think this would make for more fun games.
Streams FFA with some featured.
Uncertainties There are some aspects that need to be controlled. Such as MMR manipulation etc. Everything is not figured out yet.
Money I for one do not intend to make money nor pay salary. Just start an organization. I do not require to be the ''boss''. Just want to see something like this happen.
There are Tons and Tons of tournaments going on. For anything belohnt pro Level I recomend checking out OSC partnered minor tournaments If you re looking for below GM Level, there are some amateur Team Leagues as well, check for example Platinum Heroes, they organise some in house stuff as well I believe.
This suggestion isn't helping the unorganized part. There are a whole lot of tournaments going on already. Both from bigger organisations and from smaller entities.
Should this replace existing tournaments from relatively free agents with ones in an organisation? That will not happen. The smaller ones are doing what they can when they can. Rhis suggestion would be bad for the way they work.
Should it be a parallell overarching entity like ESL, alpha X and Root gaming already are doing/trying to do? ESL have focus on top players in different parts of the world, Root tries to organise anyone not currently on a pro team that wants to be part of something bigger, and alpha X is hosting events aimed at different skill levels continuously.
Your post was mostly about specifics of how to organise. What I want to know is what you referred to when you said that the things you liked were gone.
Your post was mostly about specifics of how to organise. What I want to know is what you referred to when you said that the things you liked were gone.
What I think is gone:
- Fan favorites - from my perspective there is no real way of getting to know the players. Like we all got to know MC, Stephano, HuK, IdrA, etc. I know this is partly because offline events are not as often as before. And underdogs that come out of nowhere. These stories are no more.
- Casters - Bring back Tastetosis. At any cost.
- Uncertainty - With all the info about the on the screens you can easily know who is most likely to win. You do not have to think or analyze the game yourself anymore. A 13-minute game can be over from the 3rd minute. But I do not want to know. If I know it's meaningless to watch. No excitement.
- Scarcity - You see the world's best players play every day like they would be playing on the ladder. At GSL, for instance, we saw players prepare to play their opponent, not the race. I am no longer really looking forward to any tournament. I mean ESL. We see them play all the time. The games are the same. No crazy games like before. The same seems for most that have been into SC2...
There are tons of tournaments, which I think is the problem. It needs to be organized in a different way. I admire those who are putting a lot of effort into keeping the scene alive. And maybe you are right. Maybe something like this would be bad for small tournaments. But I think it's a necessity.
What Root seems to be doing is really great! The best of both worlds. A team and tournament. I just do not think it can co-exist within the same organization.
Your post was mostly about specifics of how to organise. What I want to know is what you referred to when you said that the things you liked were gone.
What I think is gone:
- Fan favorites - from my perspective there is no real way of getting to know the players. Like we all got to know MC, Stephano, HuK, IdrA, etc. I know this is partly because offline events are not as often as before. And underdogs that come out of nowhere. These stories are no more.
- Casters - Bring back Tastetosis. At any cost.
- Uncertainty - With all the info about the on the screens you can easily know who is most likely to win. You do not have to think or analyze the game yourself anymore. A 13-minute game can be over from the 3rd minute. But I do not want to know. If I know it's meaningless to watch. No excitement.
- Scarcity - You see the world's best players play every day like they would be playing on the ladder. At GSL, for instance, we saw players prepare to play their opponent, not the race. I am no longer really looking forward to any tournament. I mean ESL. We see them play all the time. The games are the same. No crazy games like before. The same seems for most that have been into SC2...
There are tons of tournaments, which I think is the problem. It needs to be organized in a different way. I admire those who are putting a lot of effort into keeping the scene alive. And maybe you are right. Maybe something like this would be bad for small tournaments. But I think it's a necessity.
What Root seems to be doing is really great! The best of both worlds. A team and tournament. I just do not think it can co-exist within the same organization.
- Fan favourites : I don't really see the problem there. In that aspect today works the same way it is in the past. Names famous or infamous for any reason. Like there's asking whether Reynor will keep his world championship crown or MarineLord pondering his travel to that same event because of his commitments to another video game.
- Tastosis : They're staying in Korea so this is not happening outside of watching the GSL events.
- Uncertainity : Other viewers like casters doing in-depth analysis of what's going on in the game. Nothing worse than casters not knowing the game. Also important to be able to watch for myself why this or this is happening.
There's no perfect solution, it's all down to Personal POVs.
- Scarcity : Players don't play the same way as they were in the past. Some prefer consistency between games to better tune their games and as such absolutely hate chaos. Others thrive in it to throw opponents off their games. Like the uncertainty point, P POVs.
Given how the scene is going, how the tournaments are structured is unlikely to change anytime soon. Better trying to make the most out of what is existing rather than trying to revolutionize what is essentially considered secondary by the creator of the game.
EDIT : This point :
Money I for one do not intend to make money nor pay salary. Just start an organization. I do not require to be the ''boss''. Just want to see something like this happen.
Not a good sign when announcing from the start the commitment is limited to an idea rather than being something more extensive, whether it is time, money or else.
On January 07 2022 04:03 Hayek1 wrote: - Fan favorites - from my perspective there is no real way of getting to know the players. Like we all got to know MC, Stephano, HuK, IdrA, etc. I know this is partly because offline events are not as often as before.
It is almost entirely because of the lack of offline events, I think. Another change is in how the players are treating each other and presenting themselves. The online events are making a conscious effort to give the players platforms to show themselves. There are prepared recordings of players before events and interviews after the matches. I feel like I get to know about the players. Rogue thinks he is the best, but he doesn't want to brag. Reynor likes to make sarcastic jokes and is surprisingly eloquent in his jokes. Solar has got low self esteem. Dark is no longer a cocky upstart, giving credit to realization of his ability in relation to others and maturity.
- Casters - Bring back Tastetosis. At any cost.
They are still here. They cast Afreeca events, like the GSL (which is on its normal mid winter break).
- Uncertainty - With all the info about the on the screens you can easily know who is most likely to win. You do not have to think or analyze the game yourself anymore. A 13-minute game can be over from the 3rd minute. But I do not want to know. If I know it's meaningless to watch. No excitement.
This we simply disagree on. I like more info while you dislike it. A vast majority likes more info (several polls have been made over the years). It is here to stay, sorry.
- Scarcity - You see the world's best players play every day like they would be playing on the ladder. At GSL, for instance, we saw players prepare to play their opponent, not the race. I am no longer really looking forward to any tournament. I mean ESL. We see them play all the time. The games are the same. No crazy games like before. The same seems for most that have been into SC2...
GSL code S is still running the slow format. It is currently on its yearly break. Bunny made a deep run by preparing vs the opponent and specific map strategies, but he was not the better player. The first player that metagamed Bunny won one sidedly. If you want to see even more preparation you should watch WTL. The latest season has run throughout the fall with a lot of upsets. It seems as you like preparation tournaments more than the ESL standard of the entire thing being done in a few days (excluding qualifiers). So I say watch WTL and code S! You can go back and watch the entire year's seasons. Or, if you like Broodwar, you can watch the ASL and get even more Tastosis.
Fan favorites : I don't see it. The tournament landscape is pretty complicated. If Reynor is going to win again is, in my mind, the most obvious question. But who is the guy!? Do I like him or do i Root for Serral or Zest?
Tastosis : Okay. Too bad it seems like they are doing their own thing too. But then another duo.
Uncertainty : I mean... Look at the viewer numbers. That's rookie numbers. I watched some old matches from 2011. Way more interesting to watch even though they start with six workers.
It seems that there is a mood that states things cannot change. Now the scene seems to be dying. Do you feel like it's dying?
My main point is: The community needs to revive former viewers to grow the scene, and that is not done by doing more of the same.
A vast majority likes more info (several polls have been made over the years). It is here to stay, sorry
I have never seen these. I just doubt that the vast majority represents the majority statistically. It seems a thing for the viewers that know the most about the game. Maybe the ones who are left?
If I watch and estimate that a player should be doing so and so I have fun, feeling like making the decision on the, almost, same level as the player. With all information, I can, right off the bat, see how it's going to end. I see this as one of the main reasons people are not watching anymore. What do you think it is?
On January 07 2022 07:00 Hayek1 wrote: My main point is: The community needs to revive former viewers to grow the scene, and that is not done by doing more of the same.
A vast majority likes more info (several polls have been made over the years). It is here to stay, sorry
I have never seen these. I just doubt that the vast majority represents the majority statistically. It seems a thing for the viewers that know the most about the game. Maybe the ones who are left?
If I watch and estimate that a player should be doing so and so I have fun, feeling like making the decision on the, almost, same level as the player. With all information, I can, right off the bat, see how it's going to end. I see this as one of the main reasons people are not watching anymore. What do you think it is?
The viewers argument has been tackled quite a lot. Its completely natural for every game that the viewership is dropping in time, every game has a life cycle. People who can be considered the Starcraft generation got older, have families, other more important commitments in their life so they moved on. Some people may have moved to a newer more trendy game, which is also normal. Its kind of hard to have a big influx of new players and viewers for a 12 year old, or 24 year old game, which is so unique and difficult to master as well.
And obviously if the game is not regularly patched, tweaked, upgraded, the gameplay will become more stale. This situation wont change, so people who get bored of it will move on as well. But it seems to me you stopped watching way earlier? So this argument should be invalid for you. Looks to me your problem is you are stuck in nostalgia, thinking about times which are long gone and will never return, because its impossible to replicate them with any game that moves to a certain point in its life cycle. So the only decision you have to make is, do I still find the game interesting enough to tune in from time to time? Either way, its an easy decision.
I agree. It's a very difficult situation. I have been playing and watching on and off. Mostly off since 2017. It became boring for the reasons I stated above. I did not have kids or anything. I came back. Now I have a family.
A game being old does not disqualify it in my mind. Look at chess, soccer, badminton, poker, etc. These are difficult to master. However, maybe they are simpler to understand.
I am nostalgic about SC2. If not I would not create an account in TL and suggest this.
It seems some axioms in the community needs to challenged maybe. How do you think the SC2 experience can be improved, with the means that the community has?
It seems some axioms in the community needs to challenged maybe. How do you think the SC2 experience can be improved, with the means that the community has?
I dont think it can be improved in COVID era. Honestly, as a viewer I am not interested at all in lower than PRO level gameplay, so more variety of tournaments wont get me watch more. And seeing the viewership of smaller lower level tournaments when I tried tuning in a couple of times, most of the community feels the same way I do.
What I liked and what I miss is offline events we could travel to and meet up, interact with the players, talk about the game in person etc. Also setting up a LAN with friends in a bar and playing and having fun. This could bring the community more close together and revive the scene a bit I think.
Other than that, since the game will remain as is, dont think we can really do anything better.
- Enough influence to push Blizzard and linked companies to do "better" - Convincing other companies to put money. ESL and smaller companies/structures do their part at their level so asking them to do more is not really possible. - Convincing viewership to pay more attention to those below pro level, but if ShowTime rings me a bell, even at only one step below, the likes of BattleB ? Harder to talk about.
Status quo is the best thing possible in the immediate future. And : - Accepting the game is not the same than it was in the past. Nostalgia and ideas alone don't pay bills, cold hard cash does.
- Enough influence to push Blizzard and linked companies to do "better" - Convincing other companies to put money. ESL and smaller companies/structures do their part at their level so asking them to do more is not really possible. - Convincing viewership to pay more attention to those below pro level, but if ShowTime rings me a bell, even at only one step below, the likes of BattleB ? Harder to talk about.
Status quo is the best thing possible in the immediate future. And : - Accepting the game is not the same than it was in the past. Nostalgia and ideas alone don't pay bills, cold hard cash does.
TL, DR - Only Blizzard employees can make ANY changes, thus we're screwed.
1) Not gonna happen, they have bigger issues and their "ONLY BNET!!!!!" approach is actually the root of the issue (only Blizzard can do map updates, only Blizzard can do balance updates, only Blizzard can ban cheaters) 2) They not gonna do it for the nostalgic purposes and I honestly don't see any reason to invest in this game with the current trend of "everything is controlled by Blizzard while Blizzard does nothing" 3.1) This is another of the issues. Why would you wanna watch somebody worse - be it worse streamer or player - than what you watch now. And if they get good at content producing or playing, they're gonna attract some viewers. Not sure what the real numbers are, but my guess is they're not good. Actually progamers can host these players but then they're hurting themselves. 3.2) The bigger issue the staleness of the game. I would dare to say the game is in its most boring state - Zerg and Protoss are races most prevelant on the pro side of things(maybe bit more balanced on the Korean server). With Protoss being hated left and right and PvZ being a shitshow. On the top of that if you're a pro gamer at the European ladder you can expect to play mostly Protosses. Which makes the already boring stream even more boring because watching 20 TvPs in a row is simply boring.
On January 07 2022 07:00 Hayek1 wrote: My main point is: The community needs to revive former viewers to grow the scene, and that is not done by doing more of the same.
A vast majority likes more info (several polls have been made over the years). It is here to stay, sorry
I have never seen these. I just doubt that the vast majority represents the majority statistically. It seems a thing for the viewers that know the most about the game. Maybe the ones who are left?
If I watch and estimate that a player should be doing so and so I have fun, feeling like making the decision on the, almost, same level as the player. With all information, I can, right off the bat, see how it's going to end. I see this as one of the main reasons people are not watching anymore. What do you think it is?
The viewers argument has been tackled quite a lot. Its completely natural for every game that the viewership is dropping in time, every game has a life cycle. People who can be considered the Starcraft generation got older, have families, other more important commitments in their life so they moved on. Some people may have moved to a newer more trendy game, which is also normal. Its kind of hard to have a big influx of new players and viewers for a 12 year old, or 24 year old game, which is so unique and difficult to master as well.
This isn't true at all. The CS:GO Major in 2021 more than doubled the previous record. CS:GO is fairly old as well and it keeps on growing just like League of Legends.
However the rest of what you said is true, about players and viewers moving on to other games. It's all about attracting new viewers and gamers and unfortunately, SC2 hasn't been doing that. I can't think of a new pro player who is able to compete against the best of the existing competition aside from Zoun, Clem, and Reynor.
I may be wrong but I was under the impression that Root’s return was mostly in being a community that runs these kind of things.
Might be worth touching base with those guys.
Best of luck, such stuff is difficult to do.
I’d love to see tournaments with greater variety of maps for example, but I barely have the time to keep up with the pro scene and those guys are pretty locked in to the ladder pool.
On January 07 2022 06:37 Hayek1 wrote: I see your points, Philippe.
Fan favorites : I don't see it. The tournament landscape is pretty complicated. If Reynor is going to win again is, in my mind, the most obvious question. But who is the guy!? Do I like him or do i Root for Serral or Zest?
Tastosis : Okay. Too bad it seems like they are doing their own thing too. But then another duo.
Uncertainty : I mean... Look at the viewer numbers. That's rookie numbers. I watched some old matches from 2011. Way more interesting to watch even though they start with six workers.
It seems that there is a mood that states things cannot change. Now the scene seems to be dying. Do you feel like it's dying?
The fact that you don't know who Reynor is kinda says it all. He is one of the most extroverted players around, and has played a ton of casted matches. So there is tons of in-game footage with casting, replays, "amateur" analysis of his builds, but also tons of interviews, his own stream and twitter feeds. Sure, there isn't a lot of 1:1 interaction between him and other players, because of Covid making SC2 almost entirely offline only (and in addition, that footage only really came from GSL group selection and Homestory Cups: the player interviews are still done, maybe even more than before, but with video conference instead of in-person. In addition, you now get camera footage of the players streaming from their webcams while playing, which gives an extra dimension considerably beyond the odd shot of a player in a booth.
So whether it's personality, playstyle, rivalries, or you name it... that info is quite easily available for Reynor. So this argument mostly undermines everything else you said: you seem to want to put in quite a lot of work to "revive" the scene, but haven't even put in the minimum amount of work to update yourself about the scene (or at least, one of the most flamboyant players in it, anyway).
As for viewer numbers: you are surprised that 10 years since 2011 the viewership for the game has declined? The fact that there is still a vibrant pro scene at all is what should surprise you, not that there are (slowly) declining numbers of viewers. The fact that there are young people today picking up SC2 as a potential career is amazing to me. Sure, not so much in SK right now, but in Europe, the scene is very much alive. Reynor is only 19! So is Clem, and MaxPax is 17! And those are just the high profile players. There's a whole host of other teenagers, such as Goblin, Skillous, Vanya, Krystianer, etc. in the "prospects" category!
On January 07 2022 06:37 Hayek1 wrote: I see your points, Philippe.
Fan favorites : I don't see it. The tournament landscape is pretty complicated. If Reynor is going to win again is, in my mind, the most obvious question. But who is the guy!? Do I like him or do i Root for Serral or Zest?
Tastosis : Okay. Too bad it seems like they are doing their own thing too. But then another duo.
Uncertainty : I mean... Look at the viewer numbers. That's rookie numbers. I watched some old matches from 2011. Way more interesting to watch even though they start with six workers.
It seems that there is a mood that states things cannot change. Now the scene seems to be dying. Do you feel like it's dying?
The fact that you don't know who Reynor is kinda says it all. He is one of the most extroverted players around, and has played a ton of casted matches. So there is tons of in-game footage with casting, replays, "amateur" analysis of his builds, but also tons of interviews, his own stream and twitter feeds. Sure, there isn't a lot of 1:1 interaction between him and other players, because of Covid making SC2 almost entirely offline only (and in addition, that footage only really came from GSL group selection and Homestory Cups: the player interviews are still done, maybe even more than before, but with video conference instead of in-person. In addition, you now get camera footage of the players streaming from their webcams while playing, which gives an extra dimension considerably beyond the odd shot of a player in a booth.
So whether it's personality, playstyle, rivalries, or you name it... that info is quite easily available for Reynor. So this argument mostly undermines everything else you said: you seem to want to put in quite a lot of work to "revive" the scene, but haven't even put in the minimum amount of work to update yourself about the scene (or at least, one of the most flamboyant players in it, anyway).
As for viewer numbers: you are surprised that 10 years since 2011 the viewership for the game has declined? The fact that there is still a vibrant pro scene at all is what should surprise you, not that there are (slowly) declining numbers of viewers. The fact that there are young people today picking up SC2 as a potential career is amazing to me. Sure, not so much in SK right now, but in Europe, the scene is very much alive. Reynor is only 19! So is Clem, and MaxPax is 17! And those are just the high profile players. There's a whole host of other teenagers, such as Goblin, Skillous, Vanya, Krystianer, etc. in the "prospects" category!
The vibrant pro scene is on a lifesupport. Literally.
And the fact some viewers don't know Reynor just tells us everything we want to know about viewership and the proscene and streaming. (while not going into the pit of "streaming is not a practice")
The fact that you don't know who Reynor is kinda says it all.
Thanks for your input. It says a lot about the community.
I thought to myself that referring to Reynor as an example was obvious. I guess not. However, I don't really see the tools/info, etc. about the pro gamers to gauge who is the best. I mean, Maru obviously, but other than that, not really. I stuck around until available community and viewer metrics dropped to around 10-15 % of what it was at the height. So I saw what happened with the decline. To me, at least it is pretty obvious. I have to disagree that it undermines my statements.
At the same time, most viewers are only around for so long that content is fed to them. I don't think that people want to search for information about what is going on at the scene. Before everyone knew that GSL was the best player, period. Now what? I know IEM Katowice and the EPT points, but is it really valid in this sense?
I think what made Code S, for instance, so good was Code A filled with good players. I don't think that Code S was the best of the best players. No one got there based on luck in the long run. To me, that has everything to do with structure. The last few organizations with large money in the scene do not seem to care that much. nothing new is happening.
I think we can bring at least some uncertainty to all games relatively easily, which would make watching way more fun. And at the same time promote the best players to shine. By best I mean those who have the best mechanics, strategy, tactics, adaptability, and practice.
EPT
I watched some old matches from 2011. Way more interesting to watch even though they start with six workers.
