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Northern Ireland16880 Posts
On January 10 2022 21:52 Hayek1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2022 20:09 Acrofales wrote:
The fact that you don't know who Reynor is kinda says it all. Thanks for your input. It says a lot about the community. I thought to myself that referring to Reynor as an example was obvious. I guess not. However, I don't really see the tools/info, etc. about the pro gamers to gauge who is the best. I mean, Maru obviously, but other than that, not really. I stuck around until available community and viewer metrics dropped to around 10-15 % of what it was at the height. So I saw what happened with the decline. To me, at least it is pretty obvious. I have to disagree that it undermines my statements. At the same time, most viewers are only around for so long that content is fed to them. I don't think that people want to search for information about what is going on at the scene. Before everyone knew that GSL was the best player, period. Now what? I know IEM Katowice and the EPT points, but is it really valid in this sense? I think what made Code S, for instance, so good was Code A filled with good players. I don't think that Code S was the best of the best players. No one got there based on luck in the long run. To me, that has everything to do with structure. The last few organizations with large money in the scene do not seem to care that much. nothing new is happening. I think we can bring at least some uncertainty to all games relatively easily, which would make watching way more fun. And at the same time promote the best players to shine. By best I mean those who have the best mechanics, strategy, tactics, adaptability, and practice.
Maybe it helps that I part live on TL. Albeit I don’t use Reddit, dont really use Twitter, don’t actually play the game etc etc.
I had a pretty big hiatus, and pretty shortly after coming back I was ‘oh shit, Byun won Blizzcon?!… Who’s this Serral bloke… wait he won WHAT?!’ It doesn’t take that long to get up to speed really (I think my break was 3 years so maybe less long than yours)
There’s better content by far than the peak days, in terms of say, YouTube. Perhaps not to everyone’s taste but Harstem churns out an insane amount of varied content as a hybrid solid pro/content creator. Most of it brimming with his personality. Would recommend it.
HomeStory cup before Covid mucked things up grew from strength to strength and gives more exposure to the personalities and the characters than almost anything else.
SC2’s heyday had content I miss to this day (the likes of State of the Game), equally you didn’t have a player of a uThermal calibre consistently making really well presented guides.
GSL doesn’t outright crown the best of the best solely because there are a few foreigners of that level now. Which many on the scene were praying for as a day we didn’t think would come.
Outside the peak Kespa era, partly facilitated by Covid and offline tournies, and a smaller top end pro scene you probably have the best of the best playing each other more frequently than ever before.
There is certainly real and regrettable decline in many facets of the scene, but there’s plenty of good stuff there too.
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On January 10 2022 21:07 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2022 20:09 Acrofales wrote:On January 07 2022 06:37 Hayek1 wrote:I see your points, Philippe. Fan favorites : I don't see it. The tournament landscape is pretty complicated. If Reynor is going to win again is, in my mind, the most obvious question. But who is the guy!? Do I like him or do i Root for Serral or Zest? Tastosis : Okay. Too bad it seems like they are doing their own thing too. But then another duo. Uncertainty : I mean... Look at the viewer numbers. That's rookie numbers.  I watched some old matches from 2011. Way more interesting to watch even though they start with six workers. It seems that there is a mood that states things cannot change. Now the scene seems to be dying. Do you feel like it's dying? The fact that you don't know who Reynor is kinda says it all. He is one of the most extroverted players around, and has played a ton of casted matches. So there is tons of in-game footage with casting, replays, "amateur" analysis of his builds, but also tons of interviews, his own stream and twitter feeds. Sure, there isn't a lot of 1:1 interaction between him and other players, because of Covid making SC2 almost entirely offline only (and in addition, that footage only really came from GSL group selection and Homestory Cups: the player interviews are still done, maybe even more than before, but with video conference instead of in-person. In addition, you now get camera footage of the players streaming from their webcams while playing, which gives an extra dimension considerably beyond the odd shot of a player in a booth. So whether it's personality, playstyle, rivalries, or you name it... that info is quite easily available for Reynor. So this argument mostly undermines everything else you said: you seem to want to put in quite a lot of work to "revive" the scene, but haven't even put in the minimum amount of work to update yourself about the scene (or at least, one of the most flamboyant players in it, anyway). As for viewer numbers: you are surprised that 10 years since 2011 the viewership for the game has declined? The fact that there is still a vibrant pro scene at all is what should surprise you, not that there are (slowly) declining numbers of viewers. The fact that there are young people today picking up SC2 as a potential career is amazing to me. Sure, not so much in SK right now, but in Europe, the scene is very much alive. Reynor is only 19! So is Clem, and MaxPax is 17! And those are just the high profile players. There's a whole host of other teenagers, such as Goblin, Skillous, Vanya, Krystianer, etc. in the "prospects" category! The vibrant pro scene is on a lifesupport. Literally. And the fact some viewers don't know Reynor just tells us everything we want to know about viewership and the proscene and streaming. (while not going into the pit of "streaming is not a practice")
I don't disagree with you. It was specifically addressing the original point that hayek brought up. Obviously the scene is declining overall, and if ESL stops supporting SC2, it probably dies in a not-too-long a time: I don't see any other organization taking over the running of the "main" tournament series. There will still be tournaments, and the WTL will keep teams somewhat alive, but GSL is diminishing year after year already, and the few larger non-ESL weekenders such as ROG, TSL or (Sa)HSC won't sustain anywhere near as many (if any) players, if they even continue if ESL were to pull out.
That said, making bold suggestions on what needs to happen to make SC2 great again without knowing who Reynor is, isn't really helping.
On January 10 2022 21:52 Hayek1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2022 20:09 Acrofales wrote:
The fact that you don't know who Reynor is kinda says it all. Thanks for your input. It says a lot about the community. I thought to myself that referring to Reynor as an example was obvious. I guess not. However, I don't really see the tools/info, etc. about the pro gamers to gauge who is the best. I mean, Maru obviously, but other than that, not really. I stuck around until available community and viewer metrics dropped to around 10-15 % of what it was at the height. So I saw what happened with the decline. To me, at least it is pretty obvious. I have to disagree that it undermines my statements. At the same time, most viewers are only around for so long that content is fed to them. I don't think that people want to search for information about what is going on at the scene. Before everyone knew that GSL was the best player, period. Now what? I know IEM Katowice and the EPT points, but is it really valid in this sense? I think what made Code S, for instance, so good was Code A filled with good players. I don't think that Code S was the best of the best players. No one got there based on luck in the long run. To me, that has everything to do with structure. The last few organizations with large money in the scene do not seem to care that much. nothing new is happening. I think we can bring at least some uncertainty to all games relatively easily, which would make watching way more fun. And at the same time promote the best players to shine. By best I mean those who have the best mechanics, strategy, tactics, adaptability, and practice.
Please explain your point about Reynor a bit better then. If it was an example, what was it an example of? You seem to be jumping to a different topic if you claim you cannot decide who is the best player. That has never been easy, but I guess at least when the best player was unequivocally South Korean, at least you only had to argue whether it was the best Ace in Proleague or the most recent GSL champion, or the most consistently scoring GSL/Proleague player, etc. Now with there being effectively 2 separate very strong scenes in GSL and the ESL circuit, it is a lot harder to weigh a GSL victory vs an ESL Masters season. That said, it has also never been more interesting than the last few years if the "foreigner" pro scene is of interest. The ESL Masters aren't about which foreigner gets furthest anymore, before inevitably the semis (or quarters) are all GSL players and "international" weekenders are just like a Super Tournament (albeit with more Polt or Taeja). Foreigners compete on an equal footing, with Serral and Reynor both being undoubtedly top players (and maybe Clem as well). Aligulac and Liquipedia are still your source (just as before) for info on "player tier". Yeah, we no longer have all the "talk shows" about the game, but at least there's still the Pylon Show (albeit, not as good as it used to be with InControl  ).
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On January 10 2022 20:09 Acrofales wrote:
Please explain your point about Reynor a bit better then. If it was an example, what was it an example of? You seem to be jumping to a different topic if you claim you cannot decide who is the best player. That has never been easy, but I guess at least when the best player was unequivocally South Korean, at least you only had to argue whether it was the best Ace in Proleague or the most recent GSL champion, or the most consistently scoring GSL/Proleague player, etc. Now with there being effectively 2 separate very strong scenes in GSL and the ESL circuit, it is a lot harder to weigh a GSL victory vs an ESL Masters season. That said, it has also never been more interesting than the last few years if the "foreigner" pro scene is of interest. The ESL Masters aren't about which foreigner gets furthest anymore, before inevitably the semis (or quarters) are all GSL players and "international" weekenders are just like a Super Tournament (albeit with more Polt or Taeja). Foreigners compete on an equal footing, with Serral and Reynor both being undoubtedly top players (and maybe Clem as well). Aligulac and Liquipedia are still your source (just as before) for info on "player tier". Yeah, we no longer have all the "talk shows" about the game, but at least there's still the Pylon Show (albeit, not as good as it used to be with InControl ).
Firstly. I know who Reynor is. Very well. I have studied the scene, size, viewer metrics, etc. Everything points in the same way. Down. My point is that the structure around SC2 and the scene are wrong and needs to be changed for the game and scene to revive itself.
It is certainly possible I think.
Secondly, just because people do not know certain things does not mean that people cannot suggest things in a serious manner. And that you call hings invalid does not mean that it actually is.
WombaTOn January 10 2022 WombaTwrote:
Perhaps not to everyone’s taste but Harstem churns out an insane amount of varied content as a hybrid solid pro/content creator. Most of it brimming with his personality. Would recommend it.
What I read from your post, is that the content that the community lives off comes, almost, solely from the community itself. This makes the scene very vulnerable in my mind.
There needs to be a coordinated effort. That effort can be by the community tho.
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Why don t try something new ?
A tourney in "Fast Mode" instead "Very Fast Mode", with a consistant cash prize.
Then you could produce a replay pack to look better how optimize the game and answer to what this game deserves.
That could be a first step in direction of a community patch.
Then, the game could "gain power" as you say, for example in adding distance for gathering ressources in order to protect a part of a territory and increase the strategy, and in future create a SC3.
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On January 11 2022 04:24 Vision_ wrote:
Why don t try something new ?
A tourney in "Fast Mode" instead "Very Fast Mode", with a consistant cash prize.
Then you could produce a replay pack to look better how optimize the game and answer to what this game deserves.
That could be a first step in direction of a community patch.
Then, the game could "gain power" as you say, for example in adding distance for gathering ressources in order to protect a part of a territory and increase the strategy, and in future create a SC3.
Nice ideas! Maps can greatly influence the game and create various types of playstyles.
Mineral patches to have full minerals again would be nice for some maps. Smaller maps again maybe. No vetos, just give a BO-3 or -5 random maps to be played.
Also, Blizzard should allow a community-driven balance team that would work on the game for free. All honor to those who would participate.
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Northern Ireland16880 Posts
On January 11 2022 04:22 Hayek1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2022 20:09 Acrofales wrote:
Please explain your point about Reynor a bit better then. If it was an example, what was it an example of? You seem to be jumping to a different topic if you claim you cannot decide who is the best player. That has never been easy, but I guess at least when the best player was unequivocally South Korean, at least you only had to argue whether it was the best Ace in Proleague or the most recent GSL champion, or the most consistently scoring GSL/Proleague player, etc. Now with there being effectively 2 separate very strong scenes in GSL and the ESL circuit, it is a lot harder to weigh a GSL victory vs an ESL Masters season. That said, it has also never been more interesting than the last few years if the "foreigner" pro scene is of interest. The ESL Masters aren't about which foreigner gets furthest anymore, before inevitably the semis (or quarters) are all GSL players and "international" weekenders are just like a Super Tournament (albeit with more Polt or Taeja). Foreigners compete on an equal footing, with Serral and Reynor both being undoubtedly top players (and maybe Clem as well). Aligulac and Liquipedia are still your source (just as before) for info on "player tier". Yeah, we no longer have all the "talk shows" about the game, but at least there's still the Pylon Show (albeit, not as good as it used to be with InControl ).
Firstly. I know who Reynor is. Very well. I have studied the scene, size, viewer metrics, etc. Everything points in the same way. Down. My point is that the structure around SC2 and the scene are wrong and needs to be changed for the game and scene to revive itself. It is certainly possible I think. Secondly, just because people do not know certain things does not mean that people cannot suggest things in a serious manner. And that you call hings invalid does not mean that it actually is. Show nested quote +WombaTOn January 10 2022 WombaTwrote:
Perhaps not to everyone’s taste but Harstem churns out an insane amount of varied content as a hybrid solid pro/content creator. Most of it brimming with his personality. Would recommend it.
What I read from your post, is that the content that the community lives off comes, almost, solely from the community itself. This makes the scene very vulnerable in my mind. There needs to be a coordinated effort. That effort can be by the community tho.
Well yes, that is how communities work. The alternative is the parent company doing it.
Your posts are increasingly incoherent. Your very OP was about community initiatives, now you’re complaining that ‘content that the community lives off comes almost solely from the community itself’ and that makes it vulnerable.
In combination this makes little sense.
In the nicest possible sense you loved Starcraft in 2010-2012, and your thread mostly is complaints that it’s not 2010-2012 any more.
You complain you don’t know who Reynor is, that the scene lacks personalities, that you don’t know who the best of the best is anymore when taking any amount of time to settle and seeing what’s going on would reveal these things, rather quickly.
I’m not saying the scene doesn’t have problems, and that all of your criticisms are invalid, but if you don’t actually know the current scene how can you possibly pontificate on solutions?
And you’re complaint about the actual active community being hostile to boot?
It’s like me turning up at a jazz club and complaining about people playing too many different notes, and that I’m not fond of trumpets so they should play something else.
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WombaTOn January 11 2022 WombaTwrote:
Your posts are increasingly incoherent.
....
You complain you don’t know who Reynor is
...
And you’re complaint about the actual active community being hostile to boot?
...
Your very OP was about community initiatives, now you’re complaining that ‘content that the community lives off comes almost solely from the community itself and that makes it vulnerable.
I might have made myself massively misunderstood. It was never my intent to provoke any of you.
1: Incoherence: I stated that I don't have any solutions that I know will fix everything hence just throwing ideas out there.
2: It has never been my intent to complain about a scene that is keeping itself alive based on volunteers. That is, in my mind, admirable. It shows a foundation of strength. What I mean, is that I think the potential of this game is greater than what is being realized at the moment. Harstem makes great content. I actually think that he and Rotterdam would make a great casting team.
However, if the people creating the good content decides to stop when what to do other stuff. Then what?
I want to state once again; I know who the people in the scene are. Also, I have loved SC2 since 2011. There is no end date to that romance. There have been three years where I almost did not play because I lived in a place that had a ping of 150 at best. Yes... Those remote places still exist
3: once again. I want to praise the community. It keeps everything alive. It is the structure of tournaments like DH and ESL are doing that I think can be done in a more entertaining way.
Community-driven tournaments and content are good.
4: Yeah. It somehow turned from initiatives to arguments.
I guess I have to rethink my way of communication.
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On January 11 2022 16:49 Hayek1 wrote:Show nested quote +WombaTOn January 11 2022 WombaTwrote:
Your posts are increasingly incoherent.
....
You complain you don’t know who Reynor is
...
And you’re complaint about the actual active community being hostile to boot?
...
Your very OP was about community initiatives, now you’re complaining that ‘content that the community lives off comes almost solely from the community itself and that makes it vulnerable.
I might have made myself massively misunderstood. It was never my intent to provoke any of you. 1: Incoherence: I stated that I don't have any solutions that I know will fix everything hence just throwing ideas out there. 2: It has never been my intent to complain about a scene that is keeping itself alive based on volunteers. That is, in my mind, admirable. It shows a foundation of strength. What I mean, is that I think the potential of this game is greater than what is being realized at the moment. Harstem makes great content. I actually think that he and Rotterdam would make a great casting team. However, if the people creating the good content decides to stop when what to do other stuff. Then what? I want to state once again; I know who the people in the scene are. Also, I have loved SC2 since 2011. There is no end date to that romance. There have been three years where I almost did not play because I lived in a place that had a ping of 150 at best. Yes... Those remote places still exist 3: once again. I want to praise the community. It keeps everything alive. It is the structure of tournaments like DH and ESL are doing that I think can be done in a more entertaining way. Community-driven tournaments and content are good. 4: Yeah. It somehow turned from initiatives to arguments. I guess I have to rethink my way of communication.
I still have no idea what you're actually arguing for. What are you actually asking Blizzard or ESL or the community to do?
I mean, the title of your OP is Make SC2 great again - from community. Harstem and co. are already doing that. Are you saying more people should be doing the same thing? Or that ESL should be doing more?
I honestly don't know what you're asking. Your style of communication is meandering with no obvious point or goal.
Edit: Okay, I re-read your post, and it sounds like you want ESL to change up the format of the tournaments? So that there'll be more entertaining games?
I agree with the change of format, as I really don't like the current one. Thank God that they are actually changing it this year. I do disagree that there isn't entertaining game. 2021 was packed with great tournaments and series.
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On January 11 2022 16:49 Hayek1 wrote:Show nested quote +WombaTOn January 11 2022 WombaTwrote:
Your posts are increasingly incoherent.
....
You complain you don’t know who Reynor is
...
And you’re complaint about the actual active community being hostile to boot?
...
Your very OP was about community initiatives, now you’re complaining that ‘content that the community lives off comes almost solely from the community itself and that makes it vulnerable.
I might have made myself massively misunderstood. It was never my intent to provoke any of you. 1: Incoherence: I stated that I don't have any solutions that I know will fix everything hence just throwing ideas out there. 2: It has never been my intent to complain about a scene that is keeping itself alive based on volunteers. That is, in my mind, admirable. It shows a foundation of strength. What I mean, is that I think the potential of this game is greater than what is being realized at the moment. Harstem makes great content. I actually think that he and Rotterdam would make a great casting team. However, if the people creating the good content decides to stop when what to do other stuff. Then what? I want to state once again; I know who the people in the scene are. Also, I have loved SC2 since 2011. There is no end date to that romance. There have been three years where I almost did not play because I lived in a place that had a ping of 150 at best. Yes... Those remote places still exist 3: once again. I want to praise the community. It keeps everything alive. It is the structure of tournaments like DH and ESL are doing that I think can be done in a more entertaining way. Community-driven tournaments and content are good. 4: Yeah. It somehow turned from initiatives to arguments. I guess I have to rethink my way of communication.
Looking at your OP again, I don't see this same message, although I guess the thread has mostly following up on your second post, rather than the OP. So let's backtrack to your OP.
Regarding your suggestion for a new type of tournament, other than time and effort there is nothing stopping you from setting up a tournament along the lines you suggested. There are tons of great maps available, and even if you don't want to pick from past ladder maps that have cycled out of rotation, you can look over the past TL Map Contests (with their associated very fun tournaments with new, different, and sometimes unbalanced maps players cannot really veto) for other maps to add (or pick from any other source).
For help with organization, I'd suggest talking to ROOT, OSC, Wardi, or any other organization/person currently creating tournament content outside of the majors. More tournaments may or may not be the "right" thing right now, but people enthusiastic about the game and willing to put in work are always amazing!
That said, your second post appears to directly contradict your proposal for a new tournament by saying:
There are tons of tournaments, which I think is the problem. It needs to be organized in a different way. I admire those who are putting a lot of effort into keeping the scene alive. And maybe you are right. Maybe something like this would be bad for small tournaments. But I think it's a necessity.
So I assumed you didn't want to help set up a new tournament, but wanted existing content creators to address your issues, maybe by adjusting their tournaments to follow your advice. I suggest you think about what you are proposing, what you are willing to do, and how you expect to contribute. If all you are really here for is to argue with us about how SC2 content was better and more plentiful in 2012.. then /shrug.
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AcrofalesTOn January 11 2022 Acrofaleswrote:
If all you are really here for is to argue with us about how SC2 content was better and more plentiful in 2012.
.... content was better and more plentiful in 2012.
I am not here to argue. I am here to debate. Putting relatively unstructured thoughts and ideas out there. I see none of my posts and an invitation to an argument. Please let me know if that's not the case.
I think that the tournament content was better and more exciting and more vibrant for many reasons, that you can find in this thread. That is my opinion. Can it become the same? Of course not. But I believe that I can become exciting and more vibrant again.t
AcrofalesTOn January 11 2022 Acrofaleswrote:
That said, your second post appears to directly contradict your proposal for a new tournament by saying:
I see your point. I should have been more clear in the definitions on which my statements are built. However, that would require much longer posts which... yeah would be TL:DR. But I guess I should never leave them out.
What I am proposing is actually just to get ideas and views on the game and community out in the open and if anyone is willing to help take ideas and do something with them. I would like to work on a tournament and organize it. In that sense, this thread was beneficial to me at least. Thanks.
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On January 11 2022 19:11 buzz_bender wrote:
I honestly don't know what you're asking. Your style of communication is meandering with no obvious point or goal.
You are right. Some of this thread became more of back and forth jabbing than I expected 
I do not think the game is boring. However, I think that certain aspects can be improved to provide even more entertainment and thereby attract more viewers.
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Northern Ireland16880 Posts
On January 11 2022 16:49 Hayek1 wrote:Show nested quote +WombaTOn January 11 2022 WombaTwrote:
Your posts are increasingly incoherent.
....
You complain you don’t know who Reynor is
...
And you’re complaint about the actual active community being hostile to boot?
...
Your very OP was about community initiatives, now you’re complaining that ‘content that the community lives off comes almost solely from the community itself and that makes it vulnerable.
I might have made myself massively misunderstood. It was never my intent to provoke any of you. 1: Incoherence: I stated that I don't have any solutions that I know will fix everything hence just throwing ideas out there. 2: It has never been my intent to complain about a scene that is keeping itself alive based on volunteers. That is, in my mind, admirable. It shows a foundation of strength. What I mean, is that I think the potential of this game is greater than what is being realized at the moment. Harstem makes great content. I actually think that he and Rotterdam would make a great casting team. However, if the people creating the good content decides to stop when what to do other stuff. Then what? I want to state once again; I know who the people in the scene are. Also, I have loved SC2 since 2011. There is no end date to that romance. There have been three years where I almost did not play because I lived in a place that had a ping of 150 at best. Yes... Those remote places still exist 3: once again. I want to praise the community. It keeps everything alive. It is the structure of tournaments like DH and ESL are doing that I think can be done in a more entertaining way. Community-driven tournaments and content are good. 4: Yeah. It somehow turned from initiatives to arguments. I guess I have to rethink my way of communication.
Well apologies for any hostility, the impression was you were being critical without being ‘up to speed’ as it were.
I think the main problem is that the scene is too dependent on Blizzard support, and that will ultimately kill it. Don’t know how, don’t know when, but it’ll happen eventually.
They’ve shut off monetising the game almost entirely. Rather than ‘we’re not making skins any more but the community can and we’ll take a cut’ it’s, no skins, no new voice packs etc.
I see no transition plan to the community picking map pools, much less balancing the game.
Case in point, maps. Even when the community does organise tournaments trying out interesting maps, it’s hard to get the top pros to play, they’re very busy prepping for many tournaments in the standard pool.
It doesn’t help that the majority of the community tournament organisers that have the capacity to pull eyes in are already integrated to the EPT circuit, so they can’t really deviate too much with points on the line.
I have no faith it will happen, but it would make sense to hand over administration of the scene to an ESL, or even a Team Liquid rather than pulling the plug entirely.
The scene is extremely straightjacketed by having no other options to actually play the game than the official servers and on Blizzard’s terms.
Contrasted with Brood War which has this capacity and you see it in the map variety etc every ESL.
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I wonder ... now that the game is not going to change anymore, isn't it possible to revisit making custom mods and creating one that would allow to grow? i know in the past mods were marginal because the main focus was on the main engine, so could that be smth?
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Czech Republic11826 Posts
On January 12 2022 07:23 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
I wonder ... now that the game is not going to change anymore, isn't it possible to revisit making custom mods and creating one that would allow to grow? i know in the past mods were marginal because the main focus was on the main engine, so could that be smth?
Ladder > your mod. That's the issue. As long as only Blizzard has the control over the ladder pros will follow the ladder and tournaments will follow the ladder.
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Northern Ireland16880 Posts
On January 12 2022 18:50 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2022 07:23 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
I wonder ... now that the game is not going to change anymore, isn't it possible to revisit making custom mods and creating one that would allow to grow? i know in the past mods were marginal because the main focus was on the main engine, so could that be smth? Ladder > your mod. That's the issue. As long as only Blizzard has the control over the ladder pros will follow the ladder and tournaments will follow the ladder.
100%, and I don’t often agree with you! :p
Tired to do that annoying emoticon you always use but too much of a scrub to figure that out
Competitively minded players of all levels play ladder. Basically all pro tournaments play ladder maps.
If I want to play mods etc I have to convince others to do so with me, for the most part. Can be fun, ultimately it’s just easier, and also gives one a feeling of testing oneself to hit the ladder.
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On January 12 2022 19:02 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2022 18:50 deacon.frost wrote:On January 12 2022 07:23 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
I wonder ... now that the game is not going to change anymore, isn't it possible to revisit making custom mods and creating one that would allow to grow? i know in the past mods were marginal because the main focus was on the main engine, so could that be smth? Ladder > your mod. That's the issue. As long as only Blizzard has the control over the ladder pros will follow the ladder and tournaments will follow the ladder. 100%, and I don’t often agree with you! :p Tired to do that annoying emoticon you always use but too much of a scrub to figure that out Competitively minded players of all levels play ladder. Basically all pro tournaments play ladder maps. If I want to play mods etc I have to convince others to do so with me, for the most part. Can be fun, ultimately it’s just easier, and also gives one a feeling of testing oneself to hit the ladder.
The ladder is a recurring culprit. In the KeSPA era the teams didn't use the ladder very much. They had enough players to practice custom games vs each other. Those days are long gone, but can't it be something to revitalize?
It will make going pro a bit more of a hurdle though, as you need to find people to practice with. The Root reboot could be instrumental here, but it could also be a subreddit or a discord channel with the explicit purpose to hardcore practice.
Having a place where the practice partners are gathered in wait for a fitting practice partner would alleviate that hurdle. Go there, find a partner, start a custom map and practice for the upcoming Mappers' delight 6.
But ladder is the easy way. Grind games by just clicking 1 button in the game instead of making the effort to manually find your opponent.
Edit: this thread should be in SC2 General instead of in Tourneys
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Only way is if Blizzard let the community decide on the map pool and make balance changes using the editor. Sc2 doesn't have the longevity and variety of Brood War and the patch the game was left on was one of the worse ones imo.
I don't think personalities are an issue. If anything this has gotten better with the rise of foreigners who people are big fans of. Nor are tournaments. There is a LOT of tournaments, more than you'd expect for a scene this small, sc2 is blessed in this way.
Sc2's peak was largely riding off of it being in the right place at the right time, and inertia from Kespa players switching to Sc2 even though Sc2 was never particularly popular in Korea. If Blizzard let the passionate community have more control over the game I think it could keep going for a long time, but ultimately Blizzard is a very big and evil company so it's unlikely.
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EPT
