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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51485 Posts
 TSL 6Streams & Casters Team Liquid |  TakeTV |  OGaming SC2 |  Crank TV RotterdaM (Kevin van der Kooi) Wardi (Jonathon Ward)ZombieGrub (Jessica Chernega)Format
Map Pool Matches![[image loading]](https://tl.net/tlpd/images/players/4792.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://tl.net/tlpd/images/players/4729.jpg) ShoWTimE vs  Dark![[image loading]](https://tl.net/tlpd/images/players/6170.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://tl.net/tlpd/images/players/1850.jpg) Elazer vs Maru![[image loading]](https://tl.net/tlpd/images/players/951.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://tl.net/tlpd/images/players/4567.jpg) ByuN vs SerralResultsCSS: FO-nTTaX Awesomeness: Panda Banner: Team Liquid | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51485 Posts
Poll: TSL6 Champion Serral (21) ByuN (11) Dark (9) Maru (8) ShoWTimE (1) Elazer (0) 50 total votes Your vote: TSL6 Champion (Vote): Serral | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
Heart Showtime Btw it s foreigner vs Korean in all 3 matches, so no Matter what happened now, at least there is no [Region that did poorer than expected] hit Rock bottom thread incoming  | ||
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Weavel
Finland9221 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
My heart predicts that Maru will be replaced by MC, and then the BossToss wins. And then there's the most important predictor of all: + Show Spoiler + | ||
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
3 Europeans and 3 Koreans in the top 6. Perfectly balanced. My head says Serral is still favoured to win. I hope to see a Serral vs Maru/Byun finals that is actually competitive though. | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On December 21 2020 00:25 Zzoram wrote: 3 Europeans and 3 Koreans in the top 6. Perfectly balanced. Has NA Starcraft hit rock bottom?! | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
Wait, has NA starcraft risen up from the sub-rock bottom layer?! | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:03 sneakyfox wrote: Wait, has NA starcraft risen up from the sub-rock bottom layer?! NA Starcraft: "What if we take rock bottom... and move it somewhere else?!" | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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Husyelt
United States832 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:10 Elentos wrote: NA Starcraft: "What if we take rock bottom... and move it somewhere else?!" the last fracking expedition uncovered Neeb, but that well seems to be drying up  | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
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Topin
Peru10078 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:23 Waxangel wrote: the last fracking expedition uncovered Neeb, but that well seems to be drying up Astrea was a pretty sick find as well, and I'm still hopeful for Future. But yeah, NA accidentally consolidated almost 100% of its talent in MCanning. | ||
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Aegwynn
Italy460 Posts
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Shathe
Hungary422 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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Malinor
Germany4727 Posts
Good job Showtime. | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:32 lolfail9001 wrote: Ultras into loss to open the day, 10/10 Yeah ultras are supposed to be tanky but they take MASSIVE damage from immortals, archons, void rays, lurkers, widow mines (like wtf??), thors, and siege tanks. Like they arent even tanky I don't get it lol | ||
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:34 TentativePanda wrote: Yeah ultras are supposed to be tanky but they take MASSIVE damage from immortals, archons, void rays, lurkers, widow mines (like wtf??), thors, and siege tanks. Like they arent even tanky I don't get it lol Don't forget ghosts making five of them explode as they hopelessly retreat, which is my personal favorite way to watch ultras die. | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:33 irvnasty wrote: Dark headbutting archons with Ultras rather than just having 30-40 hydras was pretty bad. Hydras are bad once they have 100+ army supply though. They just get stormed and the interceptors melt them | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:35 irvnasty wrote: Don't forget ghosts making five of them explode as they hopelessly retreat, which is my personal favorite way to watch ultras die. How could I forget. Oh yeah, maybe because the "tanky" zerg unit gets melted by half the mid/high tech units in the game. EDIT: Oh and liberators LOL EDIT 2: Oh and cyclones do good damage to them and kite them forever. Oh and marauders are honestly pretty good vs them | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Husyelt
United States832 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:36 TentativePanda wrote: How could I forget. Oh yeah, maybe because the "tanky" zerg unit gets melted by half the mid/high tech units in the game. EDIT: Oh and liberators LOL EDIT 2: Oh and cyclones do good damage to them and kite them forever. Oh and marauders are honestly pretty good vs them Ultras would be so much scarier if they walked over lings and still could attack. At least they do splash damage! | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:40 Andi_Goldberger wrote: when ultras where acutally tanky tvz was the worst matchup to play off all. 7 armor ultralisk never forget It was 8, 7 is what they get to now. | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:40 Andi_Goldberger wrote: when ultras where acutally tanky tvz was the worst matchup to play off all. 8 armor ultralisk never forget 8 armor ultras were OP. I think things went wrong when they buffed terran vs protoss, and widow mines and other units were inadvertently really good vs ultras suddenly | ||
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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Topin
Peru10078 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:42 TentativePanda wrote: 8 armor ultras were OP. I think things went wrong when they buffed terran vs protoss, and widow mines and other units were inadvertently really good vs ultras suddenly how has any widow mine change impacted the way they kill ultras | ||
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Topin
Peru10078 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:42 TentativePanda wrote: 8 armor ultras were OP. I think things went wrong when they buffed terran vs protoss, and widow mines and other units were inadvertently really good vs ultras suddenly I've always advocated for an upgrade to give Ultras a barrel roll ability where they roll slowly in a set direction about the distance of a stalker blink. They can't change direction, but they also don't take any damage, so they could roll over mines or through liberation zones. Is this balanced? Probably not. Is it a good idea? No. Would we get to watch ultras do somersaults? Yes, yes we would. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:40 Husyelt wrote: Ultras would be so much scarier if they walked over lings and still could attack. At least they do splash damage! Don't forget blink, they should definitely have blink. On December 21 2020 01:44 irvnasty wrote: I've always advocated for an upgrade to give Ultras a barrel roll ability where they roll slowly in a set direction about the distance of a stalker blink. They can't change direction, but they also don't take any damage, so they could roll over mines or through liberation zones. Is this balanced? Probably not. Is it a good idea? No. Would we get to watch ultras do somersaults? Yes, yes we would. Excellent post. | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:43 Andi_Goldberger wrote: how has any widow mine change impacted the way they kill ultras Didn't they buff the vs armor damage? If they didn't, have they always dealt an ultra like 1/4 of its hp while splashing on all the lings around it? EDIT: It was shields they buffed it against which is good. But yeah I stand by the fact a 75/25 unit supposed to be good against clumped low tier units should not also be good vs 300/200 ultra | ||
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TheLordofAwesome
Korea (South)2655 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:44 TentativePanda wrote: Didn't they buff the vs armor damage? If they didn't, have they always dealt an ultra like 1/4 of its hp while splashing on all the lings around it? Yes. i've used mines vs ultras forever and the dynamic has never changed. | ||
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:44 sneakyfox wrote: Don't forget blink, they should definitely have blink. Haha, read my last post for my thoughts on an ultra mobility upgrade. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:44 sneakyfox wrote: Don't forget blink, they should definitely have blink. I can't believe ultras aren't cloaked, flying units. They're way too weak. | ||
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Ultras flying around with tiny little wings would be top tier.I can't believe ultras aren't cloaked, flying units. They're way too weak. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can't believe ultras aren't cloaked, flying units. They're way too weak. We shouldn't rest until they have Tempest range. #justice4ultras | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:47 sneakyfox wrote: Not on my watch. Colossus headbutt or nothing.We shouldn't rest until they have Tempest range. #justice4ultras | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:47 sneakyfox wrote: We shouldn't rest until they have Tempest range. #justice4ultras They would still be melee units rights? Just really really long claw things? | ||
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
ED IT: nvm, it came back | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:48 Elentos wrote: Not on my watch. Colossus headbutt or nothing. Well I'm pretty sure that is official LR policy at this point? Colossus headbutt is the ability on which we base our entire endeavour. On December 21 2020 01:48 chipmonklord17 wrote: They would still be melee units rights? Just really really long claw things? Yes of course, let's not be silly here. | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:49 Geo.Rion wrote: Is it just me or TSL cannot be watched from TL.net but only from twitch??? ED IT: nvm, it came back Are you using an adblocker? That's probably why then | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:49 Geo.Rion wrote: Is it just me or TSL cannot be watched from TL.net but only from twitch??? ED IT: nvm, it came back I also have that problem. e: oh ok, yes I use adblock | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:49 Geo.Rion wrote: Is it just me or TSL cannot be watched from TL.net but only from twitch??? same | ||
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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Husyelt
United States832 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
I'm watching from TL.net just fine, even though between games there's an odd new pop-up that appears, but it doesn't interfere with the games. | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:40 Andi_Goldberger wrote: when ultras where acutally tanky tvz was the worst matchup to play off all. 7 armor ultralisk never forget I think this is partly because of the fact that this coincided with marauder split damage. If they'd made the tank change, reverted marauder split and kept the armor I doubt ultras would have been the problem they were. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I'm watching from TL.net just fine, even though between games there's an odd new pop-up that appears, but it doesn't interfere with the games. I got it during games yesterday so I watched the stream on Twitch proper from then on. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On December 21 2020 01:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I'm watching from TL.net just fine, even though between games there's an odd new pop-up that appears, but it doesn't interfere with the games. for me it popped up mid-game, but went away in like 3 minutes and a few refreshes EDIT: aaand again, midgame | ||
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Topin
Peru10078 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
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Husyelt
United States832 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
On December 21 2020 02:19 irvnasty wrote: I'd like to see zergs in these positions use double nydus and lings to attack infrastructure, but I'm sure they've thought of it and have their reasons for not doing it. I think its a larvae problem but i agree | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
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JJH777
United States4408 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On December 21 2020 02:27 JJH777 wrote: So much for late game ZvP being unwinnable? Even if Dark loses, this game absolutely debunks that idea. Dark's being more efficient and Showtime is not making any major mistakes. Are you calling stuff Showtime doing "not making any major mistakes"? | ||
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Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
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Elentos
55550 Posts
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Malinor
Germany4727 Posts
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Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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darklycid
3510 Posts
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Shathe
Hungary422 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
But damn well played by Dark too. | ||
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habeck
1120 Posts
On December 21 2020 02:27 JJH777 wrote: So much for late game ZvP being unwinnable? Even if Dark loses, this game absolutely debunks that idea. Dark's being more efficient and Showtime is not making any major mistakes. he kept losing that bottom base... 1 void ray recall would have been enough. Idk why he recalled half his army to fight 3 ultras and lost position at the 1 clock | ||
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JJH777
United States4408 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On December 21 2020 02:27 JJH777 wrote: So much for late game ZvP being unwinnable? Even if Dark loses, this game absolutely debunks that idea. Dark's being more efficient and Showtime is not making any major mistakes. Showtime has run into bad fights after losing half his shields to parabombs, and had parts of his army running sideways across the map, in Dark's vision, after a weird double recall that left part of his army abandoned. Also the recall too late to save the nexus, that one is very avoidable. Those seem pretty big. | ||
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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ilax30
720 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On December 21 2020 02:34 JJH777 wrote: Now Serral and Reynor will copy that and we'll go another year without Protoss winning a premier. At least they have to use both spellcasters now But seriously Dark was way better than Showtime there. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12177 Posts
On December 21 2020 02:34 JJH777 wrote: Now Serral and Reynor will copy that and we'll go another year without Protoss winning a premier. We were going to get that anyway, even if you don't want to lategame ZvP is quite manageable. Watching tournaments is a fun experience these days, it's a bunch of explanations about why protoss is going to do well followed by protoss easily losing, on repeat. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 21 2020 02:35 irvnasty wrote: I know this is like fanfiction theorycraft stuff... but I don't think Showtime should be sending his probes to attack to reduce their supply after seeing infestors. He should just kill them himself. There was a no-joke chance for Dark to build a Nexus on his side of the map at one moment there. It would have been really good for Showtime to convince Dark to waste all those resources trying to tech to a mothership or something. Neuralling a probe might help you style on the opponent but it doesn't improve your winning chances. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
oh well, back to Serral being the last foreign hope and some sick TvZs. I cant complain! | ||
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ilax30
720 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12177 Posts
On December 21 2020 02:41 ilax30 wrote: Gotta love everyone here is complaining about how terrible toss have it lategame again after Dark crushes showtime forgetting about all the other toss lategame wins like Serral being crushed in game 1 just a few days ago. This is literally not happening? The discussion is "Oh I thought lategame was unwinnable for zerg" vs "Showtime bad". | ||
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
On December 21 2020 02:39 ZigguratOfUr wrote: It would have been really good for Showtime to convince Dark to waste all those resources trying to tech to a mothership or something. Neuralling a probe might help you style on the opponent but it doesn't improve your winning chances. My thought would be just be a nexus or two for recall. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12177 Posts
On December 21 2020 02:45 irvnasty wrote: My thought would be just be a nexus or two for recall. Interesting idea, you would need a zone without creep that is far enough from the toss base for the nexus to not be an easy target... Seems difficult to do in practice | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 21 2020 02:45 irvnasty wrote: My thought would be just be a nexus or two for recall. That doesn't sound very good. For pure mobility players could (but don't) use Nydus worms, and in the lategame saving a few units in a small radius isn't that great given how fast things die. Maybe it could make broodlord movements a little bit safer... | ||
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
On December 21 2020 02:49 Nebuchad wrote: Interesting idea, you would need a zone without creep that is far enough from the toss base for the nexus to not be an easy target... Seems difficult to do in practice If you had a probe (one of your own, not neuraled) it would be easy and take almost no APM to kill a couple tumors and do it. But the more I think about it, those particular compositions don't really end up with zerg needed extra mobility. I guess you could save some ultras, but that's about it. | ||
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
Also not sure how I feel about the tempests and especially void rays. More carriers seems like it would be be better, storm + archons seems enough disincentive to having corruptors dive on carriers? It doesn't seem like either race has fully worked out the best way to play late game PvZ which is cool, even if the late game is still way too passive for my liking. | ||
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
On December 21 2020 02:54 dysenterymd wrote: Honestly I think Showtime's biggest issue was defending expansions too poorly and attacking too much. More conservative army movement and building a lot more static defense probably would have helped a lot. Also not sure how I feel about the tempests and especially void rays. More carriers seems like it would be be better, storm + archons seems enough disincentive to having corruptors dive on carriers? It doesn't seem like either race has fully worked out the best way to play late game PvZ which is cool, even if the late game is still way too passive for my liking. I agree. Often these lategames seem like a test of both players' patience, and the giant fights rarely seem to be forced but instead just seem like "hold my keyboard, I'm going in". Very different from super lategame TvZ, where it often seems to come down to a starvation race that requires both parties to fling themselves at the last couple bases with minerals. | ||
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 21 2020 02:54 dysenterymd wrote: Honestly I think Showtime's biggest issue was defending expansions poorly and attacking too much. More conservative army movement and building a lot more static defense probably would have helped a lot. Also not sure how I feel about the tempests and especially void rays. More carriers seems like it would be be better, storm + archons seems enough disincentive to having corruptors dive on carriers? It doesn't seem like either race has fully worked out the best way to play late game PvZ which is cool, even if the late game is still way too passive for my liking. You need the tempests to help the ht deal with the vipers. Past a certain point more carriers doesn't improve the army. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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JJH777
United States4408 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
On December 21 2020 03:15 JJH777 wrote: Will Maru not play the widow mine style today? Maybe he doesn't like it with ping :/ maybe he is saving it up for Dark and Serral? There are a ton of potential zergs today to play against as Maru | ||
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
On December 21 2020 03:17 Argonauta wrote: maybe he is saving it up for Dark and Serral? There are a ton of potential zergs today to play against as Maru What is there to save, when he's already shown the build against solar? | ||
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
On December 21 2020 03:22 DBooN wrote: What is there to save, when he's already shown the build against solar? Seeing as he's injured saving his wrists for more APM intensive styles later isn't the worst idea, but at this rate there might not be a later. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On December 21 2020 03:36 sneakyfox wrote: This Maru is not going to beat Dark I don't know if this Maru particularly cares about Elazer enough to try hard knowing he has Dark next | ||
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
On December 21 2020 03:36 sneakyfox wrote: This Maru is not going to beat Dark Collectively, this is like one of the least consistent stretches for Korean pros ever. It's really series by series, so don't be surprised if Maru plays amazing against Dark (if he survives this series anyway  ) | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On December 21 2020 03:37 Waxangel wrote: Collectively, this is like one of the least consistent stretches for Korean pros ever. It's really series by series, so don't be surprised if Maru plays amazing against Dark (if he survives this series anyway )Hmm, I dunno, his control has looked off quite a few times this series. Ping is surely a big part of the explanation but he several times he seemed to not be very well aware of what's going on in the game. That part is probably going to be even worse when playing at 5 am or whatever... Plus Dark looks very solid. | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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JJH777
United States4408 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On December 21 2020 03:56 Musicus wrote: Well played by Elazer, but really happy that Maru advanced. I think from here on out every series will be incredible! Elazer vs Dark always delivers, I would have loved to watch that. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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Weavel
Finland9221 Posts
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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Husyelt
United States832 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On December 21 2020 04:28 Weavel wrote: Serral toying with his food Nah, you underestimate how much more cost effective Terran is. I think these situations with enough ghosts are a lot better for Terran than the minimap shows. This isn't over, Byun only needs to hold one base at a time while not letting Serral wipe him totally. EDIT: Okay nvm it's over, that last bane fight was a bad time to type this XD | ||
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habeck
1120 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On December 21 2020 04:41 Paljas wrote: did twitch just block the tl embedded streams? lol try disabling ad block they are in this dumb fight against adblockers right now, might fix it | ||
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
On December 21 2020 04:41 Paljas wrote: did twitch just block the tl embedded streams? lol I have the same problem from time to time, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, for no apparent reason | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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ilax30
720 Posts
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JoeCool
Germany2520 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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Husyelt
United States832 Posts
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rednusa
651 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
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Topin
Peru10078 Posts
Serral in championship mode | ||
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JoeCool
Germany2520 Posts
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mikedupp
233 Posts
On December 21 2020 04:43 Andi_Goldberger wrote: try disabling ad block they are in this dumb fight against adblockers right now, might fix it Twitch is starting to block embedded streams now too. I get a purple screen every 10mins for 30 secs. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
I'm surprised Terran players don't just 8 rax all-in him at 7-8 minutes. Otherwise he makes late game look like WOL broodlord/infestor patchzerg era, except you know, he's actually an insanely good zerg, so his late game comp is unbeatable. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:13 ZigguratOfUr wrote: In the end Serral found a way to get good engagements this game. he rebooted with his 2019 configuration and remembered how to use BL-Infestor-Spore again  | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:10 JoeCool wrote: Blord/Infestor what year is this?! I largely prefer lurkers play which is way more dynamic but the flying ability and free units which trigger the ff of the tanks makes it a way better option against turtling T with tanks... | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:15 Sadistx wrote: Going late game against Serral is just suicide. I'm surprised Terran players don't just 8 rax all-in him at 7-8 minutes. Otherwise he makes late game look like WOL broodlord/infestor patchzerg era, except you know, he's actually an insanely good zerg, so his late game comp is unbeatable. dunno why you would think so ByuN outtraded him in every late-game (including asus rog) until this very last game on pillars where Serral figured out how to execute BL-Infestor in a way that wins. Prior to literally the last game we saw, ByuN would have had every reason to believe he could outtrade Serral late i know recency bias is strong, but let's not get SO carried away | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:17 Waxangel wrote: dunno why you would think so ByuN outtraded him in every late-game (including asus rog) until this very last game on pillars where Serral figured out how to execute BL-Infestor in a way that wins. Prior to literally the last game we saw, ByuN would have had every reason to believe he could outtrade Serral late i know recency bias is strong, but let's not get SO carried away + in the other late games during asus rog, Byun beat him. (in which serral didn't use BL which was according to lambo a mistake during at least one game) | ||
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MyLovelyLurker
France756 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:17 Waxangel wrote: dunno why you would think so ByuN outtraded him in every late-game (including asus rog) until this very last game on pillars where Serral figured out how to execute BL-Infestor in a way that wins. Prior to literally the last game we saw, ByuN would have had every reason to believe he could outtrade Serral late i know recency bias is strong, but let's not get SO carried away yes, money fungals really the icing on Serral's late-macro cake. hoping for a great grandfinals series ! | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:17 Waxangel wrote: dunno why you would think so ByuN outtraded him in every late-game (including asus rog) until this very last game on pillars where Serral figured out how to execute BL-Infestor in a way that wins. Prior to literally the last game we saw, ByuN would have had every reason to believe he could outtrade Serral late i know recency bias is strong, but let's not get SO carried away Outtrading means nothing if you can't expand past 5 bases. The minimap in the last game was extremely telling. Game 2 was a slightly less dominated game than G3, but the late game outcome was exactly the same - Byun was trading efficiently, but not nearly enough to compensate for a 3-4 base disadvantage. Exact same unit comp too. Not sure how Serral 3-0d Maru, but I'd venture to guess Maru wasn't aggressive enough early game either. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:25 Sadistx wrote: Outtrading means nothing if you can't expand past 5 bases. The minimap in the last game was extremely telling. Game 2 was a slightly less dominated game than G3, but the late game outcome was exactly the same - Byun was trading efficiently, but not nearly enough to compensate for a 3-4 base disadvantage. Exact same unit comp too. Not sure how Serral 3-0d Maru, but I'd venture to guess Maru wasn't aggressive enough early game either. And ByuN won that way at ASUS ROG .Don't do the "the only starcraft I watched in the last few weeks confirms my sweeping generalization" thing. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:27 Waxangel wrote: And ByuN won that way at ASUS ROG .Don't do the "the only starcraft I watched in the last few weeks confirms my sweeping generalization" thing. Serral played this series better than the one at ASUS ROG. Thus said, we have yet to see what happens if Byun enters the lategame from an even position today! It might happen later in a regame. | ||
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Husyelt
United States832 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:29 Xain0n wrote: Serral played this series better than the one at ASUS ROG. Thus said, we have yet to see what happens if Byun enters the lategame from an even position today! It might happen later in a regame. I might actually agree with the CONCLUSION that late-game against Serral should be avoided, but I dislike the process through which that conclusion was reached. From ByuN's situation, with the prior info he had, his gameplan was perfectly reasonable | ||
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serralfan18
99 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
Right now, they're having a really hard time keeping up more than four bases once zerg has full tech and the standard 6-8 bases. | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:27 Waxangel wrote: And ByuN won that way at ASUS ROG .Don't do the "the only starcraft I watched in the last few weeks confirms my sweeping generalization" thing. Well, let's not do the "Series that happened in the past invalidate what actually happened in the most recent series" either. I actually looked up the ASUS ROG games, and they were quite different. 1 game was an early game win by Byun, and the other 2 Serral was going Ultra/muta late game instead of infestor/BL. Not exactly apples to apples. | ||
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
His current form is probably still top8 in the world though, lol | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:34 Sadistx wrote: Well, let's not do the "Series that happened in the past invalidate what actually happened in the most recent series" either. I actually looked up the ASUS ROG games, and they were quite different. 1 game was an early game win by Byun, and the other 2 Serral was going Ultra/muta late game instead of infestor/BL. Not exactly apples to apples. Infestor/BL has not been the most common lategame recently though. There definitely are terran lategame comps with thors or vikings that can be tried against that (and which did a lot to push broodlords out of the meta). | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:34 Sadistx wrote: Well, let's not do the "Series that happened in the past invalidate what actually happened in the most recent series" either. I actually looked up the ASUS ROG games, and they were quite different. 1 game was an early game win by Byun, and the other 2 Serral was going Ultra/muta late game instead of infestor/BL. Not exactly apples to apples. So by what logic should Byun know that Serral is going to play differently this time? | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:39 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Infestor/BL has not been the most common lategame recently though. There definitely are terran lategame comps with thors or vikings that can be tried against that (and which did a lot to push broodlords out of the meta). yeah people doesnt remember the +1 range and +1 armor buffs to the thor made BL outdated in 2017, I think Serral is taking advantage of the fact that Terrans seems to move towards and anti lurker late game when they see hydra ling bane in the midgame. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:29 Xain0n wrote: Serral played this series better than the one at ASUS ROG. Thus said, we have yet to see what happens if Byun enters the lategame from an even position today! It might happen later in a regame. what do you mean with even? In game 3 not much happened before lategame and ByuN got quite comfortable there. Zerg is always ahead in bases | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:39 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Infestor/BL has not been the most common lategame recently though. There definitely are terran lategame comps with thors or vikings that can be tried against that (and which did a lot to push broodlords out of the meta). I've never seen a bio player go Thors to counter BLs | ||
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:43 Charoisaur wrote: I've never seen a bio player go Thors to counter BLs GuMiho could be back mid 2021 ^_^ | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:43 Charoisaur wrote: I've never seen a bio player go Thors to counter BLs I think what was missing more were ranged libs. You need to zone out the Infestors and Tanks just kill your own units | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
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Shathe
Hungary422 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:54 Argonauta wrote: If Dark plays like this vs ByuN he will have 0 chances to win Since Byun's return, Dark is 9–8 (52.94%) in games and 4–1 (80.00%) in matches against ByuN. Quite possibly it means Dark can adapt his playstyle to the opponent? | ||
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JoeCool
Germany2520 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6929 Posts
On December 21 2020 05:53 Argonauta wrote: Compare how active was Maru vs Solar and this Maru here. After Elazer he got too tired to keep up. I believe Dark was starting to play even earlier than Maru today | ||
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JJH777
United States4408 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On December 21 2020 06:04 JJH777 wrote: Maru's form is so inconsistent. He looked amazing yesterday and Solar isn't that much worse than Dark. maru looking amazing yesterday was mostly because solar didnt deal with the widow mine drops AT ALL.. this series he hasnt done any of them - which he shouldnt do either vs a guy that makes his roach warren at 3:30^^ | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
On December 21 2020 06:06 Andi_Goldberger wrote: maru looking amazing yesterday was mostly because solar didnt deal with the widow mine drops AT ALL.. this series he hasnt done any of them - which I he shouldnt do either vs a guy that makes his roach warren at 3:30^^ He also played very well vs Stats | ||
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 21 2020 06:17 Argonauta wrote: dark is making everything possible in his hand to threw this game It's really hard to judge though. Zerg always has to take inefficient engagements--you have to be careful not to take very inefficient ones, but that's hard to judge. That being said the lack of spellcasters is pretty hard to explain. | ||
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 21 2020 06:21 Andi_Goldberger wrote: dark is on 4k gas I think he can keep trading a bit lol In the short term yeah, but both players being on the same base count is really bad for him in the long term. | ||
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
On December 21 2020 06:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote: In the short term yeah, but both players being on the same base count is really bad for him in the long term. Usually is, but this style of lurker+viper can trade evenly with a T Looking better and better for Byun the longer this series goes though (and even better for Serral) | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 21 2020 06:24 Sif_ wrote: Usually is, but this style of lurker+viper can trade evenly with a T It can, but he isn't trading evenly. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On December 21 2020 06:27 Sif_ wrote: Dark probably thought had this in the bag easily, and he kinda did... but he burned through so many units, now he has 0 gas At what point did Dark have this in the bag? | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On December 21 2020 06:32 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: At what point did Dark have this in the bag? when he was up 4k 4k bank and almost breaking terrans third? | ||
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
On December 21 2020 06:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Dark's bank is insane. This did not age well. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
hey it was a factual statement at the time | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On December 21 2020 06:37 sneakyfox wrote: This looks like a clear victory for Serral 5 AM in korea.jpg | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 21 2020 06:37 AzAlexZ wrote: Maru should kill Dark's tech he can't remake it if Maru kills all the tech structures Tech structures don't matter--Dark has no gas to build any units. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
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Weavel
Finland9221 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On December 21 2020 06:42 Sif_ wrote: Dark absolutely did not have to go for that, lol Almost 7 am in Korea | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
On December 21 2020 06:33 Andi_Goldberger wrote: when he was up 4k 4k bank and almost breaking terrans third? Maybe. But this whole game felt slightly in Maru's favor to me. Once Dark lost back to back large engagements at Maru's 3rd and at the 3:00 high ground, he had no real path to victory that didn't center on Maru erring. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
Dark was simply in an unwinnable position. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On December 21 2020 06:46 TentativePanda wrote: Lol how could Dark think neuraling all the liberators was a good idea. You'd have to neural all at once, because any liberators still belonging to Maru are gonna snipe infestors and free neuraled libs. Plus, youre not even neuraling units that are going to help you fight, so your damage output is nonexistent. Dark was simply in an unwinnable position. yeah should have just spammed infested terrans instead wonder why he didn't do that | ||
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
he had 6 lings going for +1/+1 | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
The same might happen in Dark vs. Maru right now... 2-0 -> throwing the third game -> 2-2 atm. Let's see how game 5 looks. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On December 21 2020 06:55 Sif_ wrote: What was dark even trying in this game, lol he had 6 lings going for +1/+1 I mean if theres queens in that wall hes good, he got baited tho edit: I was so ready for some TvT feelsbad | ||
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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JJH777
United States4408 Posts
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greenturtle23
86 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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ShAd_1337
Germany1042 Posts
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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JoeCool
Germany2520 Posts
On December 21 2020 07:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Those SCVs lmao. RIP. Yeah that hurt just watching it :D | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
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JJH777
United States4408 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 21 2020 07:10 Bagration wrote: Man, the timezone handicap is real - not to mention that most of these guys are now in their mid / late twenties, don't have the same stamina as they did a decade ago ByuN and Dark will play a three hours series and then it's Serral who'll be playing a series at 3 am. On December 21 2020 07:12 MarianoSC2 wrote: This is why this tournament, no matter how much fun it is, its kinda irrelevant. With normal time zones I am 100 percent sure that Maru would have spotted and denied the Nydus. Tiredness and one stupid mistake costed him the whole series lol I've seen Maru miss similar Nyduses (especially on King's Cove) in offline events at completely normal times. | ||
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JoeCool
Germany2520 Posts
On December 21 2020 07:12 JJH777 wrote: Hopefully Dark can beat Byun and win the rematch against Serral. That's what I'm hoping for as well. I'm usually for Serral but Byun won my heart when he emerged from his online-tournaments to dominate korean sc. Or at least, become one of the best terrans ever. | ||
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ShAd_1337
Germany1042 Posts
On December 21 2020 07:12 Argonauta wrote: I still Dark has zero chances vs ByuN though. lol | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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ilax30
720 Posts
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youaremysin
119 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 21 2020 07:18 youaremysin wrote: Aren't the games from replays ? Not today--some of the games yesterday were. | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
It's weird how some people are so categorical... | ||
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youaremysin
119 Posts
On December 21 2020 07:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Not today--some of the games yesterday were. Wow.. okay thath sucks. | ||
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 21 2020 07:33 Andi_Goldberger wrote: what time is it in korea again? that oc kill hurt me physically It's the morning now. Maybe ByuN has sun shining onto his monitor again (just like during those qualifiers). | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
not that I hate zvz but TvZ is def better | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
Dark is playing great and he might even make a close series with Serral, but a non-mirror finals is pretty much always better for viewers. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
On December 21 2020 07:59 Bagration wrote: This tournament feels like a marathon / endurance fest - last one who stays awake / coherent wins if they really wanted to start every day at this hour, they should have played the tournament over some more days, like 10 (and have Day9 cast day 9, of course) | ||
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:00 Zzoram wrote: Just a bit sad it looks like we’re coming back around to a ZvZ finals. Dark is playing great and he might even make a close series with Serral, but a non-mirror finals is pretty much always better for viewers. we actually haven't had a ZvZ final in while now | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
On December 21 2020 07:59 Bagration wrote: This tournament feels like a marathon / endurance fest - last one who stays awake / coherent wins Specially for the lower bracket players, if Dark wins this it will have been 3 bo5+ in a row | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:03 Argonauta wrote: Specially for the lower bracket players, if Dark wins this it will have been 3 bo5+ in a row There's no winner's bracket advantage, so at least there's exhaustion to balance the scales. | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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Amumoman
153 Posts
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
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Husyelt
United States832 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:08 Bagration wrote: Back in 2011, making this many queens would have been seen as a meme strategy lol Back in 2011 they had 3 range. On December 21 2020 08:09 Amumoman wrote: Why on Earth is ByuN not opening fast 3 CC vs a Zerg that is willing to build this many queens ByuN seems to like 3CC a lot less than basically any other terran for some reason. | ||
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Amumoman
153 Posts
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
User was warned for this post. | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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Amumoman
153 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Back in 2011 they had 3 range. ByuN seems to like 3CC a lot less than basically any other terran for some reason. Idk he’s been doing a ton of 3CC into 2-1-1 hellbat for example lately | ||
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:13 Bagration wrote: I love how the casters are trying to sidestep the imbalance of queens lol - very well done what is imba about 80 stimmed Marines firing for 5 minutes at one unit without getting a kill? | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:14 Sif_ wrote: Queens are way too good at absolutely everything, and have been since WoL Crazy. Yes, I particulary like their ability to counter attack thanks to their insane mobility offcreep | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:13 Bagration wrote: I love how the casters are trying to sidestep the imbalance of queens lol - very well done yeah they did the same with Mines and Marines | ||
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ilax30
720 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:15 stilt wrote: Yes, I particulary like their ability to counter attack thanks to their insane mobility offcreep We got the German taxi to fix that problem | ||
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:15 stilt wrote: Yes, I particulary like their ability to counter attack thanks to their insane mobility offcreep Thats your counter to 'queens are too strong'? lol, i guess that just proves the point | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:17 Sif_ wrote: Thats your counter to 'queens are too strong'? lol, i guess that just proves the point I don't need any counters to your stupid hyperbolic statement. | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:15 stilt wrote: Yes, I particulary like their ability to counter attack thanks to their insane mobility offcreep This. Sure, they are strong defensively. Sort of expected if you're putting 1.5K minerals and 20 supply into a unit with low DPS that isn't crossing the map. | ||
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:19 stilt wrote: I don't need any counters to your stupid hyperbolic statement. Yet, you did try, huh.... | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:19 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: This. Sure, they are strong defensively. Sort of expected if you're putting 1.5K minerals and 20 supply into a unit with low DPS that isn't crossing the map. But a unit that is too strong defensively destroys the balance of the game nevertheless. Zerg by design is a reactive race - the player needs balance when to drone vs. when to make units. The queen allows the Zerg to drone with limited fear - making queens doesn't require gas or even larva. As a result, nowadays there's no point to the early game - short of a full-on bunker rush / proxy rax / cannon rush / other cheese, it's just macro until the mid / late game, since queens can handle most types of attacks (or at least buy enough time for a round of lings) | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:24 Bagration wrote: But a unit that is too strong defensively destroys the balance of the game nevertheless. Zerg by design is a reactive race - the player needs balance when to drone vs. when to make units. The queen allows the Zerg to drone with limited fear - making queens doesn't require gas or even larva. As a result, nowadays there's no point to the early game - short of a full-on bunker rush / proxy rax / cannon rush / other cheese, it's just macro until the mid / late game, since queens can handle most types of attacks (or at least buy enough time for a round of lings) That's not true though--zerg players do still routinely die in the early midgame to tank pushes and whatnot. | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
If you consider my ironic reaction as a counter point, it's maybe you're just no very sure that queens are actually good at everything. | ||
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Yeah Dark! That's one! Two more! Three more. It's Bo7. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:27 ZigguratOfUr wrote: That's not true though--zerg players do still routinely die in the early midgame to tank pushes and whatnot. But that's more of the mid-game IMO - the early game is basically dead unless a player decides to cheese. I'm talking marine / marauder vs. ling-bling-roach - tier 1 vs. tier 1 units Maybe I'm becoming overly nostalgic, but I did prefer the variety of having both long macro games AND games with early aggro. I think the trend has been to make defense super easy (e.g., queens, shield batteries) so that there's more long macro games because back in 2010-2011, those were the super cool epic games. But when every game is a longer macro game that goes into the late game, it doesn't feel as special anymore. Just my 2 cents - maybe I'm being too much of an old-timer ;p | ||
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:32 Bagration wrote: But that's more of the mid-game IMO - the early game is basically dead unless a player decides to cheese. I'm talking marine / marauder vs. ling-bling-roach - tier 1 vs. tier 1 units Maybe I'm becoming overly nostalgic, but I did prefer the variety of having both long macro games AND games with early aggro. I think the trend has been to make defense super easy (e.g., queens, shield batteries) so that there's more long macro games because back in 2010-2011, those were the super cool epic games. But when every game is a longer macro game that goes into the late game, it doesn't feel as special anymore. Just my 2 cents - maybe I'm being too much of an old-timer ;p This was what was lost with 12 worker start in LotV. All the pro players love 12 worker start because they waste less time with slow starts, and it's certainly nice to have less downtime during standard games. But there were a lot more opportunities to throw a wrench in the gears early with 6 worker starts. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:32 Bagration wrote: But that's more of the mid-game IMO - the early game is basically dead unless a player decides to cheese. I'm talking marine / marauder vs. ling-bling-roach - tier 1 vs. tier 1 units Maybe I'm becoming overly nostalgic, but I did prefer the variety of having both long macro games AND games with early aggro. I think the trend has been to make defense super easy (e.g., queens, shield batteries) so that there's more long macro games because back in 2010-2011, those were the super cool epic games. But when every game is a longer macro game that goes into the late game, it doesn't feel as special anymore. Just my 2 cents - maybe I'm being too much of an old-timer ;p That's not something queens did though--that's the 12 worker start. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
Yay more games! | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
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JoeCool
Germany2520 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
It's weird, Dark is playing amazing but apart from Maru at some moment, I am under the impressions his opponents didn't play their best. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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Weavel
Finland9221 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:43 Weavel wrote: It's 1:42 in Finland so don't expect Serral to be 100%. oh how the turntables + Show Spoiler + but it's the morning for Dark after a gauntlet so nice try he's been up longer | ||
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:43 Weavel wrote: It's 1:42 in Finland so don't expect Serral to be 100%. None of these players have been 100%. It’s an interesting test of endurance under difficult conditions. | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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Amumoman
153 Posts
All of that said, I think the game is in a great place | ||
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:43 Weavel wrote: It's 1:42 in Finland so don't expect Serral to be 100%. Your point is well taken, but It's almost noon in ROK, and Dark's been up playing all night. | ||
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:43 The_Red_Viper wrote: let's not forget that it's almost 2am for serral, whereas in korea it's 9am which is way more reasonable Dark started playing at 1am Korea. | ||
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JoeCool
Germany2520 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:44 stilt wrote: Serral played so well against Byun, the contrast is pretty big Thing is, I always considered ZvZ his best matchup. Where only Reynor could best him, but right now... | ||
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
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ShAd_1337
Germany1042 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:43 The_Red_Viper wrote: let's not forget that it's almost 2am for serral, whereas in korea it's 9am which is way more reasonable lol | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:44 Amumoman wrote: 12 worker start has no bearing on defense being so strong. Remove/ massively nerf the defensive capability of Battery/Queen/Bunker, and you will see it that its not the 12 worker start that makes the difference. All of that said, I think the game is in a great place Hardly. Removing those might make cheese more successful or common, but it's not going to bring back non-cheese early game play. | ||
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:45 JoeCool wrote: Thing is, I always considered ZvZ his best matchup. Where only Reynor could best him, but right now... Dark did beat Reynor in this tournament this weekend. Dark has been on a hot streak this weekend. | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:46 dysenterymd wrote: Dark was up 2-0 against Serral in a Bo5, I think Serral can still bring it back as long as he doesn't go for any more stupid all ins. Bo7 but you're not wrong | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:43 The_Red_Viper wrote: let's not forget that it's almost 2am for serral, whereas in korea it's 9am which is way more reasonable not even close Serral has had at least 8 games of rest time whereas Dark has been playing for way longer, match after match so this point holds no weight at all | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:45 JoeCool wrote: Thing is, I always considered ZvZ his best matchup. Where only Reynor could best him, but right now... In 2020 ZvZ has been Serral's worst matchup. It was arguably his best in 2018(also in 2019 excluding Reynor). | ||
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:46 Zzoram wrote: Dark did beat Reynor in this tournament this weekend. Dark has been on a hot streak this weekend. Generally speaking, the last couple of months of competitive SC2 have felt pretty even at the top, with anyone able to beat anyone else on their best day. Obv some players are relatively better than the others, but it's a far cry from the super-stratified SC2 ppl got used to in '18~'19 | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:49 The_Red_Viper wrote: Another thing to consider is that it's online with ping problems for serral, whereas in korea they have great internet are you insulting proud ENCE sponsor TELIA FINLAND? | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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Amumoman
153 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:46 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Hardly. Removing those might make cheese more successful or common, but it's not going to bring back non-cheese early game play. What has changed is that early game play is now 2 base and not 1 etc early game very much still exists; 12 worker start has not made any difference as far as that is concerned | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:49 Waxangel wrote: are you insulting proud ENCE sponsor TELIA FINLAND? No i am just baiting people tbh | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
damn you really have nothing better to do huh? | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:52 AzAlexZ wrote: damn you really have nothing better to do huh? Other than watching dark 4-0 serral, nope | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
That being said, expecting Serral to win 4 in a row now just to ruin our hopes :D | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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Weavel
Finland9221 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
If Serral reverses the 0-3 into a 4-3, it would be one of the best comebacks of all time, especially given how uncharacteristically outplayed he's been in the past three games. This rarely happens to Serral, even if his ZvZ isn't perfect. | ||
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Amumoman
153 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:56 travis wrote: wow dark is humiliating him Yes unpunished greed into mutas sure is a testimony to outplaying your opponent | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:57 Amumoman wrote: Yes unpunished greed into mutas sure is a testimony to outplaying your opponent Actually, it is. Part of a strategy game involves you denying your opponent greedy builds. And the humiliation is across all three games so far. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
And woah an ElkY sighting. Happy 20th TL.  | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:57 Amumoman wrote: Yes unpunished greed into mutas sure is a testimony to outplaying your opponent You can say the non punished greed is the causes of this humiliation... | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
GG Dark, he's playing insane. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:02 Morbidius wrote: At least we can end the bullshit narrative that ''Serral would have stomped Dark in Blizzcon finals.'' Definitely. We already saw them relatively evenly matched earlier in the tournament, and now Serral's gotta step it up so that we can say they played evenly in the finals too. | ||
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ShAd_1337
Germany1042 Posts
On December 21 2020 08:56 MarianoSC2 wrote: Never seen Serral get so recked since that 2018 WESG against Maru. This is just brutal destruction from Dark. IEM Katowice 2017 | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
4-0 would be epic, against Serral. | ||
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Amumoman
153 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:05 Andi_Goldberger wrote: why would you do this build on this map aaaaa he must be tilted What's wrong with this build on Jagannatha? Seems like one of the better maps for this tbh. | ||
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Weavel
Finland9221 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
If Dark goes for nydus it would have been a dominating serie to say the very least | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
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MyLovelyLurker
France756 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
Well, gg Dark, insane run after a difficult year ! | ||
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Amumoman
153 Posts
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ShAd_1337
Germany1042 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
Brutal sweep. uThermal, Parting, Rogue, Reynor, ShowTime, Maru, Byun, Serral. What a crazy run. | ||
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TOMisAfish
Australia123 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
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Malinor
Germany4727 Posts
Rogue Reynor Showtime Maru Byun Serral Quite a run. Dark played out of his mind. His play was basically perfect in the end. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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ShAd_1337
Germany1042 Posts
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TheOneAboveU
Germany3367 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Let the Serral fanboy tears + the "Has Serral hit rock bottom?" jokes commence. Why the fans have to be boys ? | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
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StreaK
Canada580 Posts
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
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mikedupp
233 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:09 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Rofl what. Brutal sweep. uThermal, Parting, Rogue, Reynor, ShowTime, Maru, Byun, Serral. What a crazy run. Wow that is actually amazing | ||
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:10 Morbidius wrote: Rotti is so bitter. ''Dark was inferior in micro and macro, he just chose the right builds!'' That's not what he said at all though | ||
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JoeCool
Germany2520 Posts
Serral on the other hand, was he even trying? This was literally his worst performance in like 3 or 4 years. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44334 Posts
Fair enough Fans* | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
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allmotor1
153 Posts
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rednusa
651 Posts
Serral had a pretty impressive run too: souL, Dark, Maru, Showtime and Byun | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
Well, I suppose it's coming from one of you :s | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:10 Morbidius wrote: Rotti is so bitter. ''Dark was inferior in micro and macro, he just chose the right builds!'' I don't think he said that? Just that Dark won on strats more than mechanics which I think is fair. And there's nothing wrong with that either | ||
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Solio
France145 Posts
rotti "b-but dark didnt outplay serral, he didnt have better micro or macro, he just used better strategies thats why he won" hahahaha | ||
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:11 irvnasty wrote: Ever since Elazer beat him at Blizzcon that year, Dark has been waiting to exact his revenge on the foreign SC2 scene. I think winning Blizzcon 2019 was that. Some people doubted Dark could’ve beaten Serral that day even though he dominated Reynor 4-1 after Reynor beat Serral 3-2. Dark just showed that on a good day can take both Reynor and Serral. | ||
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Solio
France145 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:13 Zzzapper wrote: I don't think he said that? Just that Dark won on strats more than mechanics which I think is fair. And there's nothing wrong with that either The damage control is hilarious | ||
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allmotor1
153 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:13 Zzoram wrote: I think winning Blizzcon 2019 was that. Some people doubted Dark could’ve beaten Serral that day even though he dominated Reynor 4-1 after Reynor beat Serral 3-2. Dark just showed that on a good day can take both Reynor and Serral. not surprised people though that, but that's ridiculous. Dark/Rogue/Serral as far as i'm concerned are pretty equal overall. any given day they can win. | ||
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mikedupp
233 Posts
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:12 Charoisaur wrote: "Serral would never get destroyed by Dark like Reynor did in 2019 Blizzcon finals. Dark got lucky he avoided Serral there" He wouldn't have been, Serral's ZvZ was much better in 2019 than it has been this year. On December 21 2020 09:09 The_Red_Viper wrote: I think this might be the most beautiful finals i had ever the pleasure to witness Hm poor tastes if I may, this series was horrible. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:13 Solio wrote: Serral HUMILIATED hahaha rotti "b-but dark didnt outplay serral, he didnt have better micro or macro, he just used better strategies thats why he won" hahahaha That guy who got 4-0ed played amazing tho! Too bad Serral didn't win a game, because if he had we all know what the post match analysis would be focused on. | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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MyLovelyLurker
France756 Posts
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Azhrak
Finland1196 Posts
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
What do you mean damage control? I'm not rotterdam... Why are you so bothered anyway? It's true that Dark won on strats. It's also true that Dark was by far the better player today, those things are not mutually exclusive. That said, Serral's mechanics didn't look amazing either | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:15 Xain0n wrote: He wouldn't have been, Serral's ZvZ was much better in 2019 than it has been this year. Reynor's ZvZ back then was just as good as Serral's and he got destroyed by Dark. Glad the people who tried to discredit his win eat their words now. (don't remember if you were amongst them) | ||
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ZombieGrub
United States704 Posts
I mean, when did he say that lol. | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
What kind of obscene strats was he thinking to pull out? Serral played like if he thought himself to be the inferior player, risky strats and wrong timings, whereas the previous series showed he just had to play safe macro games to gain the edge. One of the best TvZ series Serral played in months followed by the absolute worst series I have ever seen him play, it was so utterly disappointing. Well played to Dark I guess. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:20 TentativePanda wrote: I'm super happy for Dark. What a fucking beast. Just came back though, how did he 4-0 Serral?? Shut Serral down completely when Serral got aggressive, massively outstrategized him in the other games. | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:17 Azhrak wrote: This did not even feel like the finals. Very rushed play from Serral. Risky builds could have paid out but usually he takes it more safe. In the game he played safe he was crushed by Dark's greedy play. And his mechanics/multitask didn't look amazing either. Overall he was just a doll on Dark's hand. It's not on the same level as Lilbow/Life but for a final... Well, the only bo I have in mind is nestea vs inca. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:24 stilt wrote: In the game he played safe he was crushed by Dark's greedy play. And his mechanics/multitask didn't look amazing either. Overall he was just a doll on Dark's hand. It's not on the same level as Lilbow/Life but for a final... Well, the only bo I have in mind is nestea vs inca. or Zest vs Maru which was done in 30-40 minutes | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:20 TentativePanda wrote: I'm super happy for Dark. What a fucking beast. Just came back though, how did he 4-0 Serral?? Game 1, Serral 12 pool did decent damage, Dark massed lings, pushed an ovie out of the way with queens and caught Serral off guard. Near instant GG. Game 2, Serral went for an early roach attack on 39 drones, Dark held it while on 56 drones and with a lair. Game 3, Slightly longer game. Dark got into a decent position and made mutas, keeping Serral pinned on 4 bases on Deathaura while he had 6 including a bonus gas one. Was flooding with lings and banes, eventually made several dropperlords and dropped a ton of lings in Serral's main. After that, Serral's defenses crumbled. Game 4, Serral made gas-first fastest possible speedlings and attacked across Jagannatha. Dark saw it lateish but was able to wall then double wall with evos. By the time Serral broke through, his banes were dead and Dark's queens and lings were able to win the ensuing fight, leaving Dark with 25 drones to 17ish. Dark stayed on two bases and got a lair while Serral also rushed lair. Dark went roach speed and was going nydus. Serral went mutas. When Dark saw the spire, he abandoned the nydus idea and just went. Due to Serral's weak economy, he only had three mutas and chose to insta-gg when he saw a dozen or so speed roaches. | ||
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Solio
France145 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
If you have a persecution complex on behalf of Koreans and interpret a comment saying that Dark out-strategized Serral as a put-down that's on you though. | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:25 Charoisaur wrote: or Zest vs Maru which was done in 30-40 minutes Oh, I didn't see it... But was it a final or a semi ? Well, I am a supporter of Serral but shits happen, Dark's run is quite insane and miraculous (uthermal/reynor had him on the ropes) but he was skilled and tenacious. At least I can go to bed. | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:27 irvnasty wrote: Game 1, Serral 12 pool did decent damage, Dark massed lings, pushed an ovie out of the way with queens and caught Serral off guard. Near instant GG. Game 2, Serral went for an early roach attack on 39 drones, Dark held it while on 56 drones and with a lair. Game 3, Slightly longer game. Dark got into a decent position and made mutas, keeping Serral pinned on 4 bases on Deathaura while he had 6 including a bonus gas one. Was flooding with lings and banes, eventually made several dropperlords and dropped a ton of lings in Serral's main. After that, Serral's defenses crumbled. Game 4, Serral made gas-first fastest possible speedlings and attacked across Jagannatha. Dark saw it lateish but was able to wall then double wall with evos. By the time Serral broke through, his banes were dead and Dark's queens and lings were able to win the ensuing fight, leaving Dark with 25 drones to 17ish. Dark stayed on two bases and got a lair while Serral also rushed lair. Dark went roach speed and was going nydus. Serral went mutas. When Dark saw the spire, he abandoned the nydus idea and just went. Due to Serral's weak economy, he only had three mutas and chose to insta-gg when he saw a dozen or so speed roaches. Sounds wacky haha. Thanks for the recap! | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:18 Charoisaur wrote: Reynor's ZvZ back then was just as good as Serral's and he got destroyed by Dark. Glad the people who tried to discredit his win eat their words now. (don't remember if you were amongst them) No, not really. Serral was 41-5 in series in ZvZ in 2019, losing once to soO and four times to Reynor(he's 29-11 in 2020, to make a comparison); Reynor went 46-18 in ZvZ in 2019, and was 5-2 against korean Zerg before facing Dark. Dark, on the other hand, went 55-17 overall in 2019 with ZvZ being his worst matchup(he was 13-6 before playing against Reynor at BlizzCon). At the time, it was reasonable to think that Serral could have had the upper hand against Dark; personally, I was disappointed by Reynor but I said nothing against Dark: he deserved a BlizzCon after all and you have to reach finals in order to win them. | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote: If you have a persecution complex on behalf of Koreans and interpret a comment saying that Dark out-strategized Serral as a put-down that's on you though. I mean it's maybe a bit oversimplifying from Rotti to say Dark just won because of his strategic choices, but yeah you'd figure "He put the Strategy in RTS" would be understood as a compliment by most people. | ||
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irvnasty
United States211 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:30 TentativePanda wrote: Sounds wacky haha. Thanks for the recap! Yeah, every game was Dark either showing perfect crisis management and then a perfect aggressive response or Dark just anticipating Serral's moves while Serral completely misunderstood what Dark was up to. If Serral had walled in game 1, he would have won that game because his 12 pool killed enough drones. The other three games had the appearance of being over before they started. | ||
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Solio
France145 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote: If you have a persecution complex on behalf of Koreans and interpret a comment saying that Dark out-strategized Serral as a put-down that's on you though. Everyone is free to interpret what he said but don't tell me that he did not say that when what i wrote is exactly what he said. It's damage control, obviously he was not going to say "dark is bad he got lucky" and i'm sure he acknowledges dark's win but we can clearly see he was a bit salty and wanted to find an explanation for serral losing, "he just got outplayed strategically, he still has the best mechanics, dark chose the best builds, even tho he lost he is still better" not to hate on rotti or anything but if dark had lost to serral like that i'm pretty sure it would have been different. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:35 Elentos wrote: I mean it's maybe a bit oversimplifying from Rotti to say Dark just won because of his strategic choices, but yeah you'd figure "He put the Strategy in RTS" would be understood as a compliment by most people. When Protoss does it it's brilliant when Zerg does it it's dirty trickery. Calling scarlett brb | ||
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:35 Elentos wrote: I mean it's maybe a bit oversimplifying from Rotti to say Dark just won because of his strategic choices, but yeah you'd figure "He put the Strategy in RTS" would be understood as a compliment by most people. To be fair, if someone said that Firecake put the Time in RTS, I wouldn't read that as a compliment | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:38 Solio wrote: Everyone is free to interpret what he said but don't tell me that he did not say that when what i wrote is exactly what he said. It's damage control, obviously he was not going to say "dark is bad he got lucky" and i'm sure he acknowledges dark's win but we can clearly see he was a bit salty and wanted to find an explanation for serral losing, "he just got outplayed strategically, he still has the best mechanics, dark chose the best builds, even tho he lost he is still better" not to hate on rotti or anything but if dark had lost to serral like that i'm pretty sure it would have been different. And if he had said that Dark had showed greater micro and macro you would still have called it damage control since that means "he thinks Serral is still the smarter player, Dark only won due to mechanics, even tho he lost he is still better". | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:38 Solio wrote: Everyone is free to interpret what he said but don't tell me that he did not say that when what i wrote is exactly what he said. It's damage control, obviously he was not going to say "dark is bad he got lucky" and i'm sure he acknowledges dark's win but we can clearly see he was a bit salty and wanted to find an explanation for serral losing, "he just got outplayed strategically, he still has the best mechanics, dark chose the best builds, even tho he lost he is still better" not to hate on rotti or anything but if dark had lost to serral like that i'm pretty sure it would have been different. he never said that Serral was superior mechanically though | ||
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JoeCool
Germany2520 Posts
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Solio
France145 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:44 ZigguratOfUr wrote: And if he had said that Dark had showed greater micro and macro you would still have called it damage control since that means "he thinks Serral is still the smarter player, Dark only won due to mechanics, even tho he lost he is still better". Obviously because Dark actually outplayed Serral in every single way in that final, thats why it was a 4-0. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:45 Solio wrote: Obviously because Dark actually outplayed Serral in every single way in that final, thats why it was a 4-0. Where did you actually see the outplay tho? Even/inferior situations decided by better engagements? What Rotti says is essentially correct. | ||
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:45 Solio wrote: Obviously because Dark actually outplayed Serral in every single way in that final, thats why it was a 4-0. Incredible damage control, you're selling Dark short by not mentioning that he also outplayed Byun in every single way, giving him important momentum going into the finals. He didn't just outplay Serral in every single way, he also outplayed him in the meta-series | ||
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Solio
France145 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:49 Xain0n wrote: Where did you actually see the outplay tho? Even/inferior situations decided by better engagements? What Rotti says is essentially correct. In the last game for example when he held the all in even tho he only scouted it at the last time when he saw the lings running across the map, he held it perfectly and it had nothing to do with a bo win or a better choice of strategy. I don't want to offend you but if you can't see Dark outplaying Serral in the 4-0 we just saw there is nothing we can do for you, maybe Serral has to loose 50-0 for you to see him getting outplayed. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:54 Solio wrote: In the last game for example when he held the all in even tho he only scouted it at the last time when he saw the lings running across the map, he held it perfectly and it had nothing to do with a bo win or a better choice of strategy. I don't want to offend you but if you can't see Dark outplaying Serral in the 4-0 we just saw there is nothing we can do for you, maybe Serral has to loose 50-0 for you to see him getting outplayed. I guess you're not entirely wrong about what Rotti said but I don't think his intention was to sell Dark short or that this is worth getting upset about. Just not a big deal | ||
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allmotor1
153 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:49 Xain0n wrote: Where did you actually see the outplay tho? Even/inferior situations decided by better engagements? What Rotti says is essentially correct. dude you're biased. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
I still stand by Rotti's side, Dark's victory was first and foremost a matter of better strategies and better builds; Serral's gameplan however was so insanely bad that I'm shocked, I didn't think I'd have ever watched him play like that. He's a god, he'll play better the next time. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
On December 21 2020 10:00 Charoisaur wrote: I guess you're not entirely wrong about what Rotti said but I don't think his intention was to sell Dark short or that this is worth getting upset about. Just not a big deal For like a year+ now, I would have picked Serral as the most likely to win before the start of basically every tournament. That's not to say I picked him against the ENTIRE field, but he just had the relative best chance to win out of all the players. I'm sure a lot of ppl agreed, and in a sense, that makes him the 'best' and 'most skilled' player in the world for some time now. At the same time, you do have to actually WIN at the end of the day to validate your skill—even if we acknowledge that SC2 is subject to a lot of variance and unexpected results. The trophies have to matter at the end of the day, even if they don't mean everything. That doesn't directly address whatever argument u guys are having but I just wanted to share my tangentially related thoughts | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1875 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:39 Waxangel wrote: When Protoss does it it's brilliant when Zerg does it it's dirty trickery. Calling scarlett brb Protossed article has somehow become an ode to the beleaguered underdog over the past three years. | ||
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serralfan18
99 Posts
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ZombieGrub
United States704 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:38 Solio wrote: Everyone is free to interpret what he said but don't tell me that he did not say that when what i wrote is exactly what he said. It's damage control, obviously he was not going to say "dark is bad he got lucky" and i'm sure he acknowledges dark's win but we can clearly see he was a bit salty and wanted to find an explanation for serral losing, "he just got outplayed strategically, he still has the best mechanics, dark chose the best builds, even tho he lost he is still better" not to hate on rotti or anything but if dark had lost to serral like that i'm pretty sure it would have been different. I was hoping you'd find the clip so we could talk about how his tone was clearly communicating praise. If he was saying "yeah but yknow...it really was all about strategy, maybe if Serral could've played a mechanics based game, Dark would've had trouble" in a hesitant manner, I'd understand where you're coming from. But Rotti had been doing nothing but PRAISING Dark for how well he's playing, how perfect some of his games were, how insane his bracket run is, etc. He's talking about this strategy point with a huge smile on his face as he attempts to show how SMART Dark is being, how amazing it is he won so hard so fast because his strategies were great. You could even have said "I wish Rotti hadn't just highlighted that, it sounded like he doesn't think Dark would win a mechanical series" and I would've understood that. But no, you say he's so bitter, that it's damage control, that he's salty, that he wouldn't be praising the exact same thing if it had been a Serral 4-0. You're just wrong. So, so wrong, and really putting Rotti in a bad light by not grasping tone or context. How you listened to the rest of the day where Rotti was praising Dark left, right, and center and come up with the conclusion that Rotti was doing damage control...yeesh. | ||
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lolkuci
1 Post
On December 21 2020 10:53 ZombieGrub wrote: I was hoping you'd find the clip so we could talk about how his tone was clearly communicating praise. If he was saying "yeah but yknow...it really was all about strategy, maybe if Serral could've played a mechanics based game, Dark would've had trouble" in a hesitant manner, I'd understand where you're coming from. But Rotti had been doing nothing but PRAISING Dark for how well he's playing, how perfect some of his games were, how insane his bracket run is, etc. He's talking about this strategy point with a huge smile on his face as he attempts to show how SMART Dark is being, how amazing it is he won so hard so fast because his strategies were great. You could even have said "I wish Rotti hadn't just highlighted that, it sounded like he doesn't think Dark would win a mechanical series" and I would've understood that. But no, you say he's so bitter, that it's damage control, that he's salty, that he wouldn't be praising the exact same thing if it had been a Serral 4-0. You're just wrong. So, so wrong, and really putting Rotti in a bad light by not grasping tone or context. How you listened to the rest of the day where Rotti was praising Dark left, right, and center and come up with the conclusion that Rotti was doing damage control...yeesh. People have provided the part you are able to listen to again and again he said and I quote: "THIS IS NOT THAT HE OUTPLAYED SERRAL FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE END WITH MULTITASKING, MICRO. NO. HE SIMPLY CHOSE BETTER STRATEGIES." Yeah that must be admiration. I just had to register to point that out to you and anybody reading your message ignoring the evidence you yourself have ignored and your obvious bias and yet again another attempt to damage control due to lack of objectivity. Please don't go any further on that matter as people are able to make their own mind: https://clips.twitch.tv/HeadstrongViscousHyenaKAPOW Watch and have a good night. | ||
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mikedupp
233 Posts
I was actually surprised how much Rotti was gushing over Dark throughout this tournament and especially today. Watch Dark vs Showtime and you might think Rotti openly wants Dark to win. | ||
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SamirDuran
Philippines894 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
It's also really nice to see Dark back at his best again. What a beast he is | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
What a great ending to 2020! As sickened I am with Zerg scum, I always have a soft spot for Dark. From Blizzcon champ to wrist pains to a sharp fall from grace. And now what a comeback! Didn't manage to catch any of his games (except against uThermal where he looked shaky). On a more ominous note, 2020 ends with a ZvZ final. Protoss getting their asses kicked (despite a false dawn in ST). Top Terrans still lacking consistency. Oh well. Some things never change... | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On December 21 2020 09:38 Solio wrote: Everyone is free to interpret what he said but don't tell me that he did not say that when what i wrote is exactly what he said. It's damage control, obviously he was not going to say "dark is bad he got lucky" and i'm sure he acknowledges dark's win but we can clearly see he was a bit salty and wanted to find an explanation for serral losing, "he just got outplayed strategically, he still has the best mechanics, dark chose the best builds, even tho he lost he is still better" not to hate on rotti or anything but if dark had lost to serral like that i'm pretty sure it would have been different. You are laughably wrong, Rotti never used the word macro in that clip so when you say what it is exactly what he said, you basically announced to the whole world that you have no ability to listen to what someone is saying. You said that Rotti said this: On December 21 2020 09:13 Solio wrote: Serral HUMILIATED hahaha rotti "b-but dark didnt outplay serral, he didnt have better micro or macro, he just used better strategies thats why he won" hahahaha This is what Rotti actually said: it's not that he (Dark) outplayed Serral from the beginning to the end with multitasking or micro So yeah you're actually dumb Also, On December 21 2020 09:10 Morbidius wrote: Rotti is so bitter. ''Dark was inferior in micro and macro, he just chose the right builds!'' you two must be super bad at English. Go listen to that clip again. Rotti said "it's not that he (Dark) outplayed Serral from the beginning to the end with multitasking or micro," if you listen carefully, Rotti didn't even use the word macro in that line. Rotti only talked about Darks strategic genius, not once talking about whether or not he was superior to Serral in macro or micro. The phrase "it's not that he (Dark) outplayed Serral from the beginning to the end with multitasking or micro" does not in any mean that either of Dark or Serral outmuscle the other in the micro/multitasking department. It's a very neutral statement. Rotti is not bitter at all. In fact it's you two who can't even grasp basic English grammar, quit being a fuking party-pooper and making Rotti sound bad because you two have an inability to comprehend what he is saying. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
Everyone know Rotti and most casters are biased towards Reynor/Serral duo. You will never expect them to say someone played better than Serral despite a 4:0, or a 3:0 (remember they always blame broken ravens for the Maru 3:0 Serral) but at least what Rotti said was not far off and its not a big of a deal | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Sometimes the destiny delivers | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6929 Posts
Unfortunately I had to sleep after Maru vs Dark. Just did the recap and wow. Dark casually 7:0'd ByuN and Serral. GG Dark. Blame it on injuries, sleeplessness or whatever. Dark delivered BIG TIME after a crazy gauntlet of the best players in the world | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
Where the games close or one-sided? | ||
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
On December 21 2020 17:53 Musicus wrote: Holy shit, I missed the annihilation of Serral it seems? Where the games close or one-sided? They were quite one-sided as Dark seemed to have the strategic/build orderic advantage in every single game. It was one of those unfortunate (for a neutral fan) series where one side never really got to play their game. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On December 21 2020 17:55 Waxangel wrote: They were quite one-sided as Dark seemed to have the strategic/build orderic advantage in every single game. It was one of those unfortunate (for a neutral fan) series where one side never really got to play their game. okay, doesn't sound great but I will still watch it, just because it's something else to see Serral go 0-4 | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On December 21 2020 14:17 AzAlexZ wrote: Solio you are actually so wrong, but here, I'll demonstrate to you why: You are laughably wrong, Rotti never used the word macro in that clip so when you say what it is exactly what he said, you basically announced to the whole world that you have no ability to listen to what someone is saying. You said that Rotti said this: This is what Rotti actually said: it's not that he (Dark) outplayed Serral from the beginning to the end with multitasking or micro So yeah you're actually dumb Also, you two must be super bad at English. Go listen to that clip again. Rotti said "it's not that he (Dark) outplayed Serral from the beginning to the end with multitasking or micro," if you listen carefully, Rotti didn't even use the word macro in that line. Rotti only talked about Darks strategic genius, not once talking about whether or not he was superior to Serral in macro or micro. The phrase "it's not that he (Dark) outplayed Serral from the beginning to the end with multitasking or micro" does not in any mean that either of Dark or Serral outmuscle the other in the micro/multitasking department. It's a very neutral statement. Rotti is not bitter at all. In fact it's you two who can't even grasp basic English grammar, quit being a fuking party-pooper and making Rotti sound bad because you two have an inability to comprehend what he is saying. At first I thought too that it's bullshit to interpret something like this in Rotti's statement but then I asked myself:"would Rotti have said the same if Serral did to Dark exactly what Dark did to him?" and the answer was a clear no - I can't imagine that - he never would've felt the need to point out that the win was purely based on strategical choices and not on mechanics. but I don't think it's a big deal at all or that he intentionally tried to sell Dark short. | ||
Poopi
France12883 Posts
So all people telling the world: « it’s fine if Koreans play from 10pm to 6am lol, they adapted their sleep schedule » what is your take now? Lmao. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On December 21 2020 18:12 Charoisaur wrote: At first I thought too that it's bullshit to interpret something like this in Rotti's statement but then I asked myself:"would Rotti have said the same if Serral did to Dark exactly what Dark did to him?" and the answer was a clear no - I can't imagine that - he never would've felt the need to point out that the win was purely based on strategical choices and not on mechanics. but I don't think it's a big deal at all or that he intentionally tried to sell Dark short. not sure why it is even controversial that a lot of casters might be a bit biased in favour of foreign players. They can relate more to them because many of the casters were foreign esports players themselves. I don't have a problem with this in general though. Maybe only at times where it feels like they are focusing on Serral's side of the game a bit too much but that might just be my own bias lol. | ||
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serralfan18
99 Posts
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
On December 21 2020 18:26 Charoisaur wrote: Btw where are the jokes about korean ZvZ? Give it a week. | ||
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Poopi
France12883 Posts
On December 21 2020 18:50 serralfan18 wrote: Dark beat Serral fair and square. Dark always had superior mechanics and strategy to Serral. Never once was Dark an inferior player to Serral. I highly doubt Dark will be able to beat Serral in offline tournaments (if they do indeed happen next year), such as IEM for example. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On December 21 2020 19:00 Poopi wrote: I highly doubt Dark will be able to beat Serral in offline tournaments (if they do indeed happen next year), such as IEM for example. How do you come to that conclusion after Dark just 4-0ed Serral with very unfavorable conditions to him (playing at 9 in the morning after playing all night back to back bo5s while Serral was well rested and played at a much more reasonable hour)? | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6929 Posts
On December 21 2020 18:50 serralfan18 wrote: Dark beat Serral fair and square. Dark always had superior mechanics and strategy to Serral. Never once was Dark an inferior player to Serral. I'm a Noob concering Aligulac, but this kinda contradicts what your are saying: Last 3 years: Found 5 matches. Under these filters, Serral is 12–8 (60.00%) in games and 4–1 (80.00%) in matches against Dark. TSL #6 Main Event Final 12/20/2020 Serral FI Z 0–4 Z KR Dark TSL #6 Main Event WB Ro16 12/12/2020 Serral FI Z 3–2 Z KR Dark WESG 2018 Main Event Playoffs Ro8 03/14/2019 Serral FI Z 3–1 Z KR Dark WCS 2018 Blizzcon Ro8 11/02/2018 Serral FI Z 3–0 Z KR Dark GSL 2018 GSL vs. the World Main Event Ro4 08/04/2018 Serral FI Z 3–1 Z KR Dark | ||
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Poopi
France12883 Posts
On December 21 2020 19:23 Charoisaur wrote: How do you come to that conclusion after Dark just 4-0ed Serral with very unfavorable conditions to him (playing at 9 in the morning after playing all night back to back bo5s while Serral was well rested and played at a much more reasonable hour)? Because Dark is still a top zerg when not too much affected by his health issues, so it's possible he beats Serral, but watching both play at peak form in offline tournaments (that matters more than online tournaments), Serral is still capable of much more than Dark. It's my head prediction though, heart I don't care much about either result. | ||
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SC-Shield
Bulgaria818 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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TheCheapSkate
Slovenia316 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25334 Posts
I still think it’s fair to simultaneously view Dark stomping Serral here and think if Serral hadn’t botched the final set against Reynor he’d have been the favourite against Dark at the 2019 Blizzcon. Be it other players getting better or him falling off in that matchup his ZvZ was immense 2018 thru 2019 Not sure why Rotti’s comments are being taken the way they are by some people, he’s obviously praising Dark’s superiority in strategic choices in this series, which are rather an important part of a competitive strategy game | ||
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Zambrah
United States7298 Posts
EDIT: you people trashing Rotti are like reading Twitch chat, please keep your asinine bullshit isolated to that cesspit please and thank you, lol Only Rotti love. <3 | ||
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allmotor1
153 Posts
On December 21 2020 19:38 Poopi wrote: Because Dark is still a top zerg when not too much affected by his health issues, so it's possible he beats Serral, but watching both play at peak form in offline tournaments (that matters more than online tournaments), Serral is still capable of much more than Dark. It's my head prediction though, heart I don't care much about either result. "much more" capable exxagerated. DArk/Serral have always been very close in skill. If one is better than the other at any particular time, it is not a huge margin. | ||
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
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Arghmyliver
United States1077 Posts
Dark Fans: "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeee DARK HAS AS MANY HAND SERRAL HAS!" Everyone else: ??? | ||
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Poopi
France12883 Posts
On December 21 2020 23:52 allmotor1 wrote: "much more" capable exxagerated. DArk/Serral have always been very close in skill. If one is better than the other at any particular time, it is not a huge margin. I think Serral and Dark have different strengths really. Serral is more a player that will play the "perfect" answers / strategies, with superb mechanics. He will be on top when zerg is on top (for example in ZvT), but will have more troubles when it isn't the case (see WESG 2018 vs Maru). Whereas Dark is a bit more wild in his play and won't necessarily try to play the "perfect" way, which allows him (and Rogue for that matter) to still be fine in ZvT even vs the raven play from Maru in WESG and other tournaments they met in 2018. He also can play "dirty" strats in ZvZ, so sometimes he will look like a god (beating Reynor in BlizzCon finals for example) and sometimes look dumb losing with such strats. But regarding peak zerg play, I think Serral went over Dark (much more might be too strong words I guess) in several instances, in different tournaments, and in all matchups to be honest. | ||
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
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allmotor1
153 Posts
On December 22 2020 01:48 Poopi wrote: I think Serral and Dark have different strengths really. Serral is more a player that will play the "perfect" answers / strategies, with superb mechanics. He will be on top when zerg is on top (for example in ZvT), but will have more troubles when it isn't the case (see WESG 2018 vs Maru). Whereas Dark is a bit more wild in his play and won't necessarily try to play the "perfect" way, which allows him (and Rogue for that matter) to still be fine in ZvT even vs the raven play from Maru in WESG and other tournaments they met in 2018. He also can play "dirty" strats in ZvZ, so sometimes he will look like a god (beating Reynor in BlizzCon finals for example) and sometimes look dumb losing with such strats. But regarding peak zerg play, I think Serral went over Dark (much more might be too strong words I guess) in several instances, in different tournaments, and in all matchups to be honest. sure they aren't exactly the same of course in terms of their strengths and weaknesses and variances in their styles sure. but my point still stands, the overall skill difference between those two is negligible, both are amazing in top form. | ||
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yuanyi2121
1 Post
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serralfan18
99 Posts
On December 22 2020 00:18 NotSoHappy wrote: no idea why some people here put Rotti down, because he mentioned how good Dark startegies were. Serral came underprepared or too much in his head to play his thing and Dark mindgamed him soo good that it ended in a switf 4:0. Serral was not under-prepared or anything. In fact, Serral played perfect as he usually does but this just shows how much better Dark is than Serral. It's always been that way. | ||
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Shathe
Hungary422 Posts
Yes his strategic decesion making was the most outstanding, so thats worth highlghting. | ||
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serralfan18
99 Posts
On December 23 2020 02:33 Shathe wrote: I dont really know whats this debate is about. From what ive seen, this match Dark outplayed Serral in every way possible. Yes his strategic decesion making was the most outstanding, so thats worth highlghting. Not only his decision making. Dark is better than Serral in every single aspect of SC2. Its always been that way. Serral is a god, yes. But Dark is levels above him, as with healthy Maru or Byun. User was banned for this post. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On December 23 2020 02:33 Shathe wrote: I dont really know whats this debate is about. From what ive seen, this match Dark outplayed Serral in every way possible. Yes his strategic decesion making was the most outstanding, so thats worth highlghting. Nah, not really. It's not that Dark's micro, micro or multitasking were better than Serral's, we barely had any moment in the series in which these could be decisive elements; on the other hand, Dark's build orders and decision making were infinitely superior to Serral's in every game they played and the 4-0 is a consequence of that that. On December 23 2020 02:26 serralfan18 wrote: Serral was not under-prepared or anything. In fact, Serral played perfect as he usually does but this just shows how much better Dark is than Serral. It's always been that way. Serral wasn't unprepared, his hate for mutalisks in ZvZ(which must have skyrocketed recently since he wasn't so reluctant to play mutas himself in the past) paired with Dark's preference to play them mindtricked him entirely; Serral seemingly had no clue, he refused to play mutas himself, didn't realize when and if Dark was going to play them and mostly tried to end the game before mutas could come out with terrible builds and very little success, whereas he should have had the edge in standard ZvZ or hive lategame(as it happened every time when Dark and post ascension Serral had to play). Serral has never played, in recent times, a series that was so far from being perfect and Dark has performed worse than Serral for very long periods; trolling in every post you make must be very fun since you can't refrain from doing it. | ||
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DarkGamer
Germany323 Posts
On December 23 2020 05:17 Xain0n wrote: Nah, not really. It's not that Dark's micro, micro or multitasking were better than Serral's, we barely had any moment in the series in which these could be decisive elements; on the other hand, Dark's build orders and decision making were infinitely superior to Serral's in every game they played and the 4-0 is a consequence of that that. Serral wasn't unprepared, his hate for mutalisks in ZvZ(which must have skyrocketed recently since he wasn't so reluctant to play mutas himself in the past) paired with Dark's preference to play them mindtricked him entirely; Serral seemingly had no clue, he refused to play mutas himself, didn't realize when and if Dark was going to play them and mostly tried to end the game before mutas could come out with terrible builds and very little success, whereas he should have had the edge in standard ZvZ or hive lategame(as it happened every time when Dark and post ascension Serral had to play). Serral has never played, in recent times, a series that was so far from being perfect and Dark has performed worse than Serral for very long periods; trolling in every post you make must be very fun since you can't refrain from doing it. Thx for taking the time. These trolls are really floading this thread. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On December 23 2020 05:17 Xain0n wrote: Nah, not really. It's not that Dark's micro, micro or multitasking were better than Serral's, we barely had any moment in the series in which these could be decisive elements; on the other hand, Dark's build orders and decision making were infinitely superior to Serral's in every game they played and the 4-0 is a consequence of that that. I disagree. In game 1, Serral messed up his queen positioning for a split second and Dark immediately got the surround that won him the game. In game 2, Serral's first roach bane push was a disaster because Dark out micro'd Serral. Between setting up concaves and killing serral's banes with his own, Dark got an insurmountable lead because he outmicro'd Serral. That led to Serral's all-in in which his biles were off point and Dark was engaging everything with finesse. In game 3 - Serral had problems keeping up with Dark's multitasking. Dark did have the build order advantage, but he was also blocking every single effort of Serral to have some map awareness. Serral couldnt even get changelings out. In game 4 - Serral won the build order i believe, and still lost. Serral, with his timing, couldnt engage well enough in Dark's sim city and didnt target fire well enough. So while Dark did win most of the build orders, that's not the only reason Serral got rolled 4-0. Dark just better mechanically Why is it even so surprising? Serral lost a grueling ZvZ to Reynor at blizzcon, and then Dark just steamrolled Reynor mechanically. Dark is a monster | ||
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kaby
Russian Federation195 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
You would expect TL writers to have a template ZvZ report by now.... | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On December 24 2020 17:15 BerserkSword wrote: I disagree. In game 1, Serral messed up his queen positioning for a split second and Dark immediately got the surround that won him the game. In game 2, Serral's first roach bane push was a disaster because Dark out micro'd Serral. Between setting up concaves and killing serral's banes with his own, Dark got an insurmountable lead because he outmicro'd Serral. That led to Serral's all-in in which his biles were off point and Dark was engaging everything with finesse. In game 3 - Serral had problems keeping up with Dark's multitasking. Dark did have the build order advantage, but he was also blocking every single effort of Serral to have some map awareness. Serral couldnt even get changelings out. In game 4 - Serral won the build order i believe, and still lost. Serral, with his timing, couldnt engage well enough in Dark's sim city and didnt target fire well enough. So while Dark did win most of the build orders, that's not the only reason Serral got rolled 4-0. Dark just better mechanically Why is it even so surprising? Serral lost a grueling ZvZ to Reynor at blizzcon, and then Dark just steamrolled Reynor mechanically. Dark is a monster Just no. In game 1, it was Serral who won the early engagement after the 12 pool and that made Dark opt for the ling flood that which won him the game because Serral wasn't expecting it. In game 2, the build order was simply terrible for Serral, his roaches hit for the first time when he's down 14 workers but has almost no advantage in army supply In game 3 Dark surely had the initiative and kept Serral busy with his multitasking but it's not like he inflicted fatal damage because of it, the build order was the reason he won. Only for game 4 I agree that Serral could have been ahead as far as build orders go and played it kind of subpar. For sure Serral didn't play better than Dark throughout the whole series but the opposite isn't true either, maybe slightly so. Strategy and decision making won Dark the series big time. This result is surprising, of course, since Serral on average is faster and has better mechanics than Dark; it was crystal clear during the series they played in 2018-2019 and, I would say, it could be noticed even in the close 3-2 Serral won two weeks ago. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On December 25 2020 02:34 Xain0n wrote: Just no. In game 1, it was Serral who won the early engagement after the 12 pool and that made Dark opt for the ling flood that which won him the game because Serral wasn't expecting it. In game 2, the build order was simply terrible for Serral, his roaches hit for the first time when he's down 14 workers but has almost no advantage in army supply In game 3 Dark surely had the initiative and kept Serral busy with his multitasking but it's not like he inflicted fatal damage because of it, the build order was the reason he won. Only for game 4 I agree that Serral could have been ahead as far as build orders go and played it kind of subpar. For sure Serral didn't play better than Dark throughout the whole series but the opposite isn't true either, maybe slightly so. Strategy and decision making won Dark the series big time. This result is surprising, of course, since Serral on average is faster and has better mechanics than Dark; it was crystal clear during the series they played in 2018-2019 and, I would say, it could be noticed even in the close 3-2 Serral won two weeks ago. okay, this is definitely the "damage control" Rotti was accused of doing. "Dark won only because he chose better builds, he's still inferior in micro and macro" Jeez, how salty are you? | ||
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allmotor1
153 Posts
On December 25 2020 02:34 Xain0n wrote: Just no. In game 1, it was Serral who won the early engagement after the 12 pool and that made Dark opt for the ling flood that which won him the game because Serral wasn't expecting it. In game 2, the build order was simply terrible for Serral, his roaches hit for the first time when he's down 14 workers but has almost no advantage in army supply In game 3 Dark surely had the initiative and kept Serral busy with his multitasking but it's not like he inflicted fatal damage because of it, the build order was the reason he won. Only for game 4 I agree that Serral could have been ahead as far as build orders go and played it kind of subpar. For sure Serral didn't play better than Dark throughout the whole series but the opposite isn't true either, maybe slightly so. Strategy and decision making won Dark the series big time. This result is surprising, of course, since Serral on average is faster and has better mechanics than Dark; it was crystal clear during the series they played in 2018-2019 and, I would say, it could be noticed even in the close 3-2 Serral won two weeks ago. you said dark didn't play better than serral throughout the whole series, yea ok. You are biased and don't accuse others of being a troll, you basiclly are one too. And you ignored his part about how dark totally outclassed reynor last year right after reynor beat serral. You can go on all day in circles, fact is serral lost 0-4 decisively. its ok, serral will be alright. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On December 25 2020 04:53 Charoisaur wrote: okay, this is definitely the "damage control" Rotti was accused of doing. "Dark won only because he chose better builds, he's still inferior in micro and macro" Jeez, how salty are you? I am not salty, I am disappointed; and not because Serral lost but because of how atrocious was his decision making during the finals. Salty is what you are whenever Serral wins anything, you should know that feeling very well. If you want me to say that Dark is superior to Serral mechanically speaking while on overage it's the opposite that's true: check their apm/Epm, look at their games without being irremediably korean biased and you'll know that how it is. During these last finals, Dark was equal to or slightly better than Serral mechanically but I wouldn't expect this to happen on a regular basis and it wasn't even a key factor in the 4-0: Dark won mostly because he chose better builds, yes. On December 25 2020 05:27 allmotor1 wrote: you said dark didn't play better than serral throughout the whole series, yea ok. You are biased and don't accuse others of being a troll, you basiclly are one too. And you ignored his part about how dark totally outclassed reynor last year right after reynor beat serral. You can go on all day in circles, fact is serral lost 0-4 decisively. its ok, serral will be alright. I mean, it should have been obvious if you cared to read that I was referring to their mechanics only. Overall, Dark played much better than Serral. Dark outclassing Reynor last BlizzCon looks like an exception considering that 2019 was Dark's best year in Sc2 and he kept losing ZvZ when it mattered except for that series; good for him that he was in such shape that day and also Reynor probably wasn't at the level he reached in 2020(even if he had already started beating Serral). Also, Serral's g5 against Reynor was a huge throw, the worst of his career after becoming a champion. | ||
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DarkGamer
Germany323 Posts
I think its great for dark and he played really good. Sad thing is, that the korean elitists make this more about serral losing, then about dark winning. It shows how salty they are about serral dominance in the past time. On December 25 2020 05:55 Xain0n wrote: I am not salty, I am disappointed; and not because Serral lost but because of how atrocious was his decision making during the finals. Salty is what you are whenever Serral wins anything, you should know that feeling very well. If you want me to say that Dark is superior to Serral mechanically speaking while on overage it's the opposite that's true: check their apm/Epm, look at their games without being irremediably korean biased and you'll know that how it is. During these last finals, Dark was equal to or slightly better than Serral mechanically but I wouldn't expect this to happen on a regular basis and it wasn't even a key factor in the 4-0: Dark won mostly because he chose better builds, yes. I mean, it should have been obvious if you cared to read that I was referring to their mechanics only. Overall, Dark played much better than Serral. Dark outclassing Reynor last BlizzCon looks like an exception considering that 2019 was Dark's best year in Sc2 and he kept losing ZvZ when it mattered except for that series; good for him that he was in such shape that day and also Reynor probably wasn't at the level he reached in 2020(even if he had already started beating Serral). Also, Serral's g5 against Reynor was a huge throw, the worst of his career after becoming a champion. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On December 25 2020 06:04 DarkGamer wrote: I really like that you try to clarify ur thoughts and they are understandable. I think its great for dark and he played really good. Sad thing is, that the korean elitists make this more about serral losing, then about dark winning. It shows how salty they are about serral dominance in the past time. Thank you mate, I appreciate your words Dark definitely wasn't the one I would have wanted to win but there is no doubt that he deserved to. For some people out here, evidently, this isn't enough. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
I'm out of here | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On December 25 2020 08:57 Charoisaur wrote: and when I think it can't get worse Xainon brings up APM as "proof" Serral is still superior mechanically after losing 0-4.... I'm out of here You are welcome. However, if you read more carefully you'll find out I am not saying what you just wrote. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25334 Posts
Where Serral tends to be better is in a stable ZvZ that transitions to hive, which wasn’t how the series went. Dark is more ballsy and has more variety, indeed Serral has tried to have more all-ins and weird stuff as part of this year. I’d argue it hasn’t really worked all that well. In theory a Serral with more all-ins and weirdness is just a better Serral, but I just don’t think he’s wired like Dark is in this regard. Similarly to how Stats is just better being Stats 9/10 times. But mechanically I don’t think there’s much between them at all | ||
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allmotor1
153 Posts
On December 25 2020 06:04 DarkGamer wrote: I really like that you try to clarify ur thoughts and they are understandable. I think its great for dark and he played really good. Sad thing is, that the korean elitists make this more about serral losing, then about dark winning. It shows how salty they are about serral dominance in the past time. no actually korean haters are making this more about serral losing than dark winning. | ||
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allmotor1
153 Posts
On December 25 2020 05:55 Xain0n wrote: I am not salty, I am disappointed; and not because Serral lost but because of how atrocious was his decision making during the finals. Salty is what you are whenever Serral wins anything, you should know that feeling very well. If you want me to say that Dark is superior to Serral mechanically speaking while on overage it's the opposite that's true: check their apm/Epm, look at their games without being irremediably korean biased and you'll know that how it is. During these last finals, Dark was equal to or slightly better than Serral mechanically but I wouldn't expect this to happen on a regular basis and it wasn't even a key factor in the 4-0: Dark won mostly because he chose better builds, yes. I mean, it should have been obvious if you cared to read that I was referring to their mechanics only. Overall, Dark played much better than Serral. Dark outclassing Reynor last BlizzCon looks like an exception considering that 2019 was Dark's best year in Sc2 and he kept losing ZvZ when it mattered except for that series; good for him that he was in such shape that day and also Reynor probably wasn't at the level he reached in 2020(even if he had already started beating Serral). Also, Serral's g5 against Reynor was a huge throw, the worst of his career after becoming a champion. dude anybody can see how biased you are. you did it again, diminishing dark's win vs reynor in 2019 under the guise you are complimenting him. | ||
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Rubicant1
115 Posts
On December 25 2020 08:57 Charoisaur wrote: and when I think it can't get worse Xainon brings up APM as "proof" Serral is still superior mechanically after losing 0-4.... I'm out of here Yeah, not really what he said, but not surprised you're being reductive on this topic. Serral deserved to lose their second series, because no player has ever exploited his distaste for mutalisks in such a concerted manner, not even Reynor--and Serral had no response to it. It colored every one of his decisions and strategies, and Dark punished him for it relentlessly. Serral's proven to be a more than capable muta player when he's tried, so if he's going to completely abandon a legitimate avenue of play, he needs to respond with better builds or more unique responses in the future. As an aside, it's kind of a joke this serralfan18 guy gets to troll with impunity in such a blatant and transparent fashion. I mean, Jesus, he's not even subtle or amusing about it. I'm not sure if I'm more impressed with his audacity or the lack of forum moderation to address it. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On December 25 2020 10:10 Xain0n wrote: You are welcome. However, if you read more carefully you'll find out I am not saying what you just wrote. it's literally what you said If you want me to say that Dark is superior to Serral mechanically speaking while on overage it's the opposite that's true: check their apm/Epm, look at their games without being irremediably korean biased and you'll know that how it is. or did someone else write this? I have noticed this often with you - when Serral beats someone it's proof he's the superior player. when he loses to someone it means Serral had a bad day, was sick, wasn't playing at his peak, or now: "is still the better player but chose worse builds" | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On December 25 2020 08:57 Charoisaur wrote: and when I think it can't get worse Xainon brings up APM as "proof" Serral is still superior mechanically after losing 0-4.... I have noticed this often with you - when Serral beats someone it's proof he's the superior player. when he loses to someone it means Serral had a bad day, was sick, wasn't playing at his peak, or now: "is still the better player but chose worse builds" On December 25 2020 10:20 WombaT wrote: They’re about equal mechanically judging from the many FPVoDs I’ve gone through with a fine toothcomb. Where Serral tends to be better is in a stable ZvZ that transitions to hive, which wasn’t how the series went. Dark is more ballsy and has more variety, indeed Serral has tried to have more all-ins and weird stuff as part of this year. I’d argue it hasn’t really worked all that well. In theory a Serral with more all-ins and weirdness is just a better Serral, but I just don’t think he’s wired like Dark is in this regard. Similarly to how Stats is just better being Stats 9/10 times. But mechanically I don’t think there’s much between them at all I think these are the 2 best posts here. Everyone knows by now that Xanion is the most deluded person here. None of his arguments make any sense and he is constantly getting lost in his own shitloops. "Chose worse builds but is still better" is the newest and probably the most pathetic excuse so far Ueeeee (crying in his sleep) but Serral was better in 2018 than Dark, that mean he is still the better player now. Xanion logic at its best :DI also like WombaTs post. I really dont think there is much difference between Dark and Serral, and there never was. Its mostly about form and META. Dark is on absolute roll in the last couple of weeks and the META seems to favor the less standard and weirder ZvZ now, in which Dark thrives in a lot more. Both of them are great players, obviously Serral would have to prove himself in GSL and other Korean offline tournaments to ever be considered on Darks level, but skill wise I really think they are very close. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On December 25 2020 19:50 Charoisaur wrote: it's literally what you said or did someone else write this? I have noticed this often with you - when Serral beats someone it's proof he's the superior player. when he loses to someone it means Serral had a bad day, was sick, wasn't playing at his peak, or now: "is still the better player but chose worse builds" That's what I wrote but you keep misunderstanding. Except for what I could see while it was played, I can't tell you who was objectively faster in their last series nor I could be since the replay wasn't released yet. I instead said that Serral has been faster than Dark on average on a regular basis, even in recent times. Such difference starts to become noticeable when the game drags longer, according to objective criteria that everyone could check. When Serral wins I usually say nothing or compliment him with very few exceptions, when Serral loses what I write it's really up to how he lost. I find a little weird that Dark has been almost irrelevant in the last six months and now everyone seems convinced he's the best player in the world, without any doubt. Can't deny that he was impressive last weekend, that he seems to be back at top level and that he deservingly won TSL 6. On the other hand, Trap won two tournaments in a week and nobody said a word, how's that? On December 25 2020 20:38 MarianoSC2 wrote: I think these are the 2 best posts here. Everyone knows by now that Xanion is the most deluded person here. None of his arguments make any sense and he is constantly getting lost in his own shitloops. "Chose worse builds but is still better" is the newest and probably the most pathetic excuse so far Ueeeee (crying in his sleep) but Serral was better in 2018 than Dark, that mean he is still the better player now. Xanion logic at its best :DI also like WombaTs post. I really dont think there is much difference between Dark and Serral, and there never was. Its mostly about form and META. Dark is on absolute roll in the last couple of weeks and the META seems to favor the less standard and weirder ZvZ now, in which Dark thrives in a lot more. Both of them are great players, obviously Serral would have to prove himself in GSL and other Korean offline tournaments to ever be considered on Darks level, but skill wise I really think they are very close. I like Wombat's post too, I agree with his analysis about Dark's and Serral's different styles; however, Serral is a more mechanically gifted player than Dark. Of course this doesn't mean Dark isn't, it's not like the difference in mechanics is huge and it doesn't even mean that Serral is always faster; on average, he is. As for the rest, failing to write my name properly every time definitely doesn't make you look smarter, you know? Just as declaring me deluded and saying that my arguments don't make any sense doesn't really get on well together with stating that "OBVIOUSLY Serral would have to play himself in GSL to ever be considered on Dark's level"; I am the deluded one, really? Don't make me laugh. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25334 Posts
On December 25 2020 20:38 MarianoSC2 wrote: I think these are the 2 best posts here. Everyone knows by now that Xanion is the most deluded person here. None of his arguments make any sense and he is constantly getting lost in his own shitloops. "Chose worse builds but is still better" is the newest and probably the most pathetic excuse so far Ueeeee (crying in his sleep) but Serral was better in 2018 than Dark, that mean he is still the better player now. Xanion logic at its best :DI also like WombaTs post. I really dont think there is much difference between Dark and Serral, and there never was. Its mostly about form and META. Dark is on absolute roll in the last couple of weeks and the META seems to favor the less standard and weirder ZvZ now, in which Dark thrives in a lot more. Both of them are great players, obviously Serral would have to prove himself in GSL and other Korean offline tournaments to ever be considered on Darks level, but skill wise I really think they are very close. To throw an even more extreme example, soO has incredible mechanics but especially latterly his transitions to lategame weren’t smooth, to put it mildly. There are differences between these players but I don’t see much of a mechanical gap there anyway. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On December 26 2020 01:55 Charoisaur wrote: If it's true that Serral is on average "faster" than Dark how can it be that Dark is better in the matchup in which mechanics are most important (ZvT)? Is he? That's a conviction of yours and I'm sure any further discussion wouldn't change it to the point that it would be fruitless to insist. However, Serral has been better in ZvT during 2020,for sure and the last time Dark was undoubtedly better than Serral in the matchup was in early 2018. | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On December 26 2020 01:55 Charoisaur wrote: If it's true that Serral is on average "faster" than Dark how can it be that Dark is better in the matchup in which mechanics are most important (ZvT)? Because APM/EPM isn't everything in this game. | ||
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