On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
That's a very high level meme(look who am I supporting against Maru as GOAT and laugh because you might even agree, this time).
The number of premier victories does matter, you guys forget too often winning is never easy; of course, quality of victories has to be valued too.
You perfectly know I think myself that Serral is not in contention for being GOAT; as for TaeJa, his impressive achievements are just almost the perfect mirror of Maru's(more victories, less prestigious. Never winning a Code S, not to mention a korean tournament, is indeed a significant flaw, I don't see TaeJa as GOAT despite holding him in high esteem).
Before this tournament I still had Inno as GOAT but I think it's very hard to argue against 4 GSL victories in a row. As for bonjwa I agree with you though. He's closer to it than anyone has ever been but he just failed to hard at IEM and Blizzcon. If he had won one of those two OR at least reached the semis at both, he would've been definitely the first bonjwa.
Ah, the code S bias is just too strong, I see; so one Code S and one OSL are better than WCS Global finals, two IEM and GSL vs the World(side note:I was convinced Inno had ten Premier titles)?
Maru is and has been far from being a bonjwa, he's way closer to GOAT title(relatively).
Think you mean 2013 WCS season 2? Yeah if you put it that way, I don't think 2 GSL is necessarily better than those tournaments that Inno has over him. Seems Inno actually isn't too far off from Maru.
all those players who are still competing in the GSL didn't just lose the work ethic and habits learned in a kespa team-house. those are lessons that stay with you for life. some players might have lapsed without the kespa training regimen. those who remain in the GSL have carried it with them
Yeah lets take your word for it rather than what the pros themselves say. Fans have rose tinted glasses for the present.
I'll start entertaining arguments that winning GSL isn't far more impressive than GSLvsTheWorld/WCS/Blizzcon/WESG when a foreigner that does well at those events dominates a season of GSL. Neeb's round of 4 was one of the easiest paths to round of 4 in Code S history.
Maru is by far the best player in the world right now and it isn't close.
As for why his results seem to vary: his post match interview reveals all. He says the only thing left for him to do is win Blizzcon. I'm sorry but he just doesn't care as much about IEM/GslVsTheWorld/HSC/WESG/ST. He tries to win, but he is much more relaxed and as a result his mental suffers. For Maru what matters is Code S and winning a Blizzcon (due to historical importance).
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
That's a very high level meme(look who am I supporting against Maru as GOAT and laugh because you might even agree, this time).
The number of premier victories does matter, you guys forget too often winning is never easy; of course, quality of victories has to be valued too.
You perfectly know I think myself that Serral is not in contention for being GOAT; as for TaeJa, his impressive achievements are just almost the perfect mirror of Maru's(more victories, less prestigious. Never winning a Code S, not to mention a korean tournament, is indeed a significant flaw, I don't see TaeJa as GOAT despite holding him in high esteem).
Before this tournament I still had Inno as GOAT but I think it's very hard to argue against 4 GSL victories in a row. As for bonjwa I agree with you though. He's closer to it than anyone has ever been but he just failed to hard at IEM and Blizzcon. If he had won one of those two OR at least reached the semis at both, he would've been definitely the first bonjwa.
Ah, the code S bias is just too strong, I see; so one Code S and one OSL are better than WCS Global finals, two IEM and GSL vs the World(side note:I was convinced Inno had ten Premier titles)?
Maru is and has been far from being a bonjwa, he's way closer to GOAT title(relatively).
Think you mean 2013 WCS season 2? Yeah if you put it that way, I don't think 2 GSL is necessarily better than those tournaments that Inno has over him. Seems Inno actually isn't too far off from Maru.
Edit: WCS Season 1
Hm, yes, it's WCS Season 1. The term "global final" is inappropriate, that's BlizzCon; let's say WCS S1 Finals. Also, I'm not sure if OSL can be considered the same as a Code S.
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
That's a very high level meme(look who am I supporting against Maru as GOAT and laugh because you might even agree, this time).
The number of premier victories does matter, you guys forget too often winning is never easy; of course, quality of victories has to be valued too.
You perfectly know I think myself that Serral is not in contention for being GOAT; as for TaeJa, his impressive achievements are just almost the perfect mirror of Maru's(more victories, less prestigious. Never winning a Code S, not to mention a korean tournament, is indeed a significant flaw, I don't see TaeJa as GOAT despite holding him in high esteem).
Before this tournament I still had Inno as GOAT but I think it's very hard to argue against 4 GSL victories in a row. As for bonjwa I agree with you though. He's closer to it than anyone has ever been but he just failed to hard at IEM and Blizzcon. If he had won one of those two OR at least reached the semis at both, he would've been definitely the first bonjwa.
Ah, the code S bias is just too strong, I see; so one Code S and one OSL are better than WCS Global finals, two IEM and GSL vs the World(side note:I was convinced Inno had ten Premier titles)?
Maru is and has been far from being a bonjwa, he's way closer to GOAT title(relatively).
Think you mean 2013 WCS season 2? Yeah if you put it that way, I don't think 2 GSL is necessarily better than those tournaments that Inno has over him. Seems Inno actually isn't too far off from Maru.
Edit: WCS Season 1
Hm, yes, it's WCS Season 1. The term "global final" is inappropriate, that's BlizzCon; let's say WCS S1 Finals. Also, I'm not sure if OSL can be considered the same as a Code S.
Yeah I think OSL is probably around as prestigious as the WCS Season 1 tbh.
watching the games now and its awesome to see how involved the crowd is getting in the games, sick games so far. Also I find it hilarious how the end of every TL game thread turns into this debate without fail
all those players who are still competing in the GSL didn't just lose the work ethic and habits learned in a kespa team-house. those are lessons that stay with you for life. some players might have lapsed without the kespa training regimen. those who remain in the GSL have carried it with them
I'll start entertaining arguments that winning GSL isn't far more impressive than GSLvsTheWorld/WCS/Blizzcon/WESG when a foreigner that does well at those events dominates a season of GSL. Neeb's round of 4 was one of the easiest paths to round of 4 in Code S history.
is this supposed to be a response to me? I didn't make this argument
all those players who are still competing in the GSL didn't just lose the work ethic and habits learned in a kespa team-house. those are lessons that stay with you for life. some players might have lapsed without the kespa training regimen. those who remain in the GSL have carried it with them
Yeah lets take your word for it rather than what the pros themselves say. Fans have rose tinted glasses for the present.
why is my post is so controversial to you? which part of my post contradicts what the pros say? is there an interview where a pro kr player says the opposite of what I said? it would have to go something like this: "we lost the work ethic and habits that we learned in a kespa team-house. those lessons didn't stay with us for long. those who remain in the GSL have discarded everything they learned in the kespa team-house."
fans have rose-tinted glasses for the present? cool. so why are you saying this to me? did I say something suggesting that I have rose-tinted glasses for the present? if so, why didn't you quote the thing which suggested that I have rose-tinted glasses for the present, instead of the thing you actually quoted? who are you talking to? why am I the recipient of your quote?
On April 15 2019 02:37 Rodya wrote: I'll start entertaining arguments that winning GSL isn't far more impressive than GSLvsTheWorld/WCS/Blizzcon/WESG when a foreigner that does well at those events dominates a season of GSL. Neeb's round of 4 was one of the easiest paths to round of 4 in Code S history.
is this supposed to be a response to me? I didn't make this argument
On April 15 2019 02:37 Rodya wrote: Yeah lets take your word for it rather than what the pros themselves say. Fans have rose tinted glasses for the present.
why is my post controversial to you? which part of my post contradicts what the pros say? is there an interview where a pro kr player says the opposite of what I said? it would have to go something like this: "we lost the work ethic and habits that we learned in a kespa team-house. those lessons didn't stay with us for long. those who remain in the GSL have discarded everything they learned in the kespa team-house."
fans have rose-tinted glasses for the present? cool. so why are you saying this to me? did I say something suggesting that I have rose-tinted glasses for the present? if so, why didn't you quote the thing which suggested that I have rose-tinted glasses for the present, instead of the thing you actually quoted? who are you talking to? why am I the recipient of your quote?
The problem with this discussion is that there isn't a clear answer. We need Maru to dominate even more than winning the most (or maybe 2nd most if you think blizzcon is great) prestigious tournament in sc2 four times in a row to definitively reach a conclusion. Part of that problem is that Serral, the second best player, only participates in 2 major tournaments a year (IEM) and in 2 smaller tournaments (Gsl vs the world, WESG) which makes it even harder to call maru a GOAT or the best.
All that being said, I do think it's the most impressive feat in sc2 history to win 4 GSLs in a row. For me personally, maru's play is also the best play I have ever seen. When other terrans play you see them lose small groups of units because they didn't micro, queue up liberators in poor positions, not watch their minimap for a small amount of times, drop units to their death. When maru plays that doesn't happen. He will never miss anything on the minimap, he will be microing individual marines even in hectic scenarios, he almost always watches his drops perfectly, when he queues up a liberator its in a spot that can't be reached by ground units. It's so perfect. I don't think I've ever seen anyone hit that level of play.
On April 15 2019 05:31 arcane1129 wrote: For the sake of discussion (the dates next to their names are their first and most recent premier semifinal or better finish):
On April 15 2019 05:31 arcane1129 wrote: For the sake of discussion (the dates next to their names are their first and most recent premier semifinal or better finish):
MVP: Jan ’11 – June ‘13 Lifetime: 62.05% Gold: 1x Blizzcon, 3x GSL, 1x GSL World Championship, 1x MLG, 1x IEM, 1x WCS EU, 1x WCG Silver: 2x GSL, 1x Code A Semis: x4
Taeja: Aug ’11 – Nov ’14 Lifetime: 62.91% Gold: 4x Dreamhack, 1x MLG, 2x ASUS ROG, 1x IEM, 3x HSC Silver: 1x Dreamhack, 1x Redbull Battlegrounds Semis: x12
Wow, that just makes innovation look so good in my eyes.
Strong player for such a long time, and over a wide range of tournaments
Well, Innos stats are somewhat inflated. I mean, he is impressive and all but since he switched over from Broodwar his amateur times aren't featured in those statistics. He already was an established pro in Broodwar while the stats of Maru, Life, Taeja include their first steps of walking on the path of progaming. Another problem is that we can hardly compare the winrates that directly because different players played in different tournaments with different difficulty. Maru for example barely ever played outside of Korea while Inno even had a period in foreignerland.
I'm not willing to call Maru the definitive best player right now, he does not play well in Live tournaments, at least relative to his skill level. Although, the only tournament that can really be considered a failure was IEM...
However, I think between 4 GSLs in a row, and all of his Proleague success that Maru has earned the title of best Preparation player of all time. He's so much better when given time to prepare than at live weekend tournaments.
I think some people forget how good Inno got, how quickly and how crazy his peak was after that in GOAT discussions
Career Inno has had peaks and troughs, like all players have. It’s been so long though that it’s hard to put yourself back into that time.
In GOAT discussions I must confess I value absolute peak form in actual play vs peers over longevity in the weighting, or pure tournament wins too.
Peak Inno was absolutely insane, one of his nicknames is ‘the machine’ for a reason for his mechanics relative to the competition.
His TvT was only bad compared to his other matchups, his TvP was amazing and his TvZ for a period was absolutely insane. He brought Brood War style win percentages over to a game thought too volatile to actually be that consistent in winning. Not matches either but sets.
This isn’t meant as a counter to Maru at all, just framing Inno in a certain light or serve as a reminder of quite how far ahead of the field Inno was at one point.
He’s since regressed into the still amazing Inno we see today, who can slump but can win anything on his day, and he’s been there for quite some time. 6 years of Inno as he largely is now makes one view him in a certain light, it’s hard to throw yourself back to 2013 and remember what watching him in that time felt like.
On April 15 2019 11:12 Wombat_NI wrote: I think some people forget how good Inno got, how quickly and how crazy his peak was after that in GOAT discussions
Career Inno has had peaks and troughs, like all players have. It’s been so long though that it’s hard to put yourself back into that time.
In GOAT discussions I must confess I value absolute peak form in actual play vs peers over longevity in the weighting, or pure tournament wins too.
Peak Inno was absolutely insane, one of his nicknames is ‘the machine’ for a reason for his mechanics relative to the competition.
His TvT was only bad compared to his other matchups, his TvP was amazing and his TvZ for a period was absolutely insane. He brought Brood War style win percentages over to a game thought too volatile to actually be that consistent in winning. Not matches either but sets.
This isn’t meant as a counter to Maru at all, just framing Inno in a certain light or serve as a reminder of quite how far ahead of the field Inno was at one point.
He’s since regressed into the still amazing Inno we see today, who can slump but can win anything on his day, and he’s been there for quite some time. 6 years of Inno as he largely is now makes one view him in a certain light, it’s hard to throw yourself back to 2013 and remember what watching him in that time felt like.
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
That's a very high level meme(look who am I supporting against Maru as GOAT and laugh because you might even agree, this time).
The number of premier victories does matter, you guys forget too often winning is never easy; of course, quality of victories has to be valued too.
You perfectly know I think myself that Serral is not in contention for being GOAT; as for TaeJa, his impressive achievements are just almost the perfect mirror of Maru's(more victories, less prestigious. Never winning a Code S, not to mention a korean tournament, is indeed a significant flaw, I don't see TaeJa as GOAT despite holding him in high esteem).
Before this tournament I still had Inno as GOAT but I think it's very hard to argue against 4 GSL victories in a row. As for bonjwa I agree with you though. He's closer to it than anyone has ever been but he just failed to hard at IEM and Blizzcon. If he had won one of those two OR at least reached the semis at both, he would've been definitely the first bonjwa.
Rogue was the first bonjwa. He was near untouchable during those 8 months or so. Shame he didnt also take a GSL, but he was literally 1 tankshot close. No one else would have stopped him at that point in time. Oh and 1 queenblock before that, but there he was only starting his period of domination.
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
That's a very high level meme(look who am I supporting against Maru as GOAT and laugh because you might even agree, this time).
The number of premier victories does matter, you guys forget too often winning is never easy; of course, quality of victories has to be valued too.
You perfectly know I think myself that Serral is not in contention for being GOAT; as for TaeJa, his impressive achievements are just almost the perfect mirror of Maru's(more victories, less prestigious. Never winning a Code S, not to mention a korean tournament, is indeed a significant flaw, I don't see TaeJa as GOAT despite holding him in high esteem).
Before this tournament I still had Inno as GOAT but I think it's very hard to argue against 4 GSL victories in a row. As for bonjwa I agree with you though. He's closer to it than anyone has ever been but he just failed to hard at IEM and Blizzcon. If he had won one of those two OR at least reached the semis at both, he would've been definitely the first bonjwa.
Rogue was the first bonjwa. He was near untouchable during those 8 months or so. Shame he didnt also take a GSL, but he was literally 1 tankshot close. No one else would have stopped him at that point in time. Oh and 1 queenblock before that, but there he was only starting his period of domination.
Being untouchable and losing narrowly dont really go hand in hand, just saying, not that i'm hating on Rogue or anything.
The last 3 TvP series of Maru are very convincing, on a patch that most terrans are really struggling in the MU.
If nothing else best TVP-er of sc2. For me bonjwa has been, and still remains a BW term, not really applicable to sc2 because the scene is so different, and the competition is organized very differently. It was hard enough to define in BW, and many still argue over July and Bisu and whoever.
I don't think anyone can argue against Maru being the best preparation player of all time. As for GOAT, well as other pointed out, he's missing the weekender wins to have a clear headway over others, more well rounded, players like INno.
It's also worth noting that his last 4 GSL wins came at a time where it's not that clear anymore that GSL is that much harder than ST, Katowice or even the old IEM event (or any other big weekender back in the day) It used to be that GSL was harder because the talent pool in Korea was huge and only a fraction of it went oversea or could even play in Korean weekender, but it's not really the same anymore, global or korean weekender are about the same players then the GSL round of 16.
So while it's probably the greatest run we have ever seen in SC2, it does "misses" the wekeender wins. Witch is a recurring problem in his career. He also had fewer weekender try than most since JinAir didn't fly their player out for the longest time. But maybe he fixes that this year we all have a clear GOAT
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
That's a very high level meme(look who am I supporting against Maru as GOAT and laugh because you might even agree, this time).
The number of premier victories does matter, you guys forget too often winning is never easy; of course, quality of victories has to be valued too.
You perfectly know I think myself that Serral is not in contention for being GOAT; as for TaeJa, his impressive achievements are just almost the perfect mirror of Maru's(more victories, less prestigious. Never winning a Code S, not to mention a korean tournament, is indeed a significant flaw, I don't see TaeJa as GOAT despite holding him in high esteem).
Before this tournament I still had Inno as GOAT but I think it's very hard to argue against 4 GSL victories in a row. As for bonjwa I agree with you though. He's closer to it than anyone has ever been but he just failed to hard at IEM and Blizzcon. If he had won one of those two OR at least reached the semis at both, he would've been definitely the first bonjwa.
Rogue was the first bonjwa. He was near untouchable during those 8 months or so. Shame he didnt also take a GSL, but he was literally 1 tankshot close. No one else would have stopped him at that point in time. Oh and 1 queenblock before that, but there he was only starting his period of domination.
No. Just no. He was "untouchable" and still lost? Wait what? Also no GSL title. Using your criteria for bonjwa means Serral is a bonjwa as well and you of all people would hate on that so much.
There is no sc2 bonjwa (yet). If anyone, Maru has a shot. He needs some weekenders and at least one Blizzcon title for that IMO
I think Maru is probably the best player I've seen but Taeja is still my favourite. There was something about the skills he brought that no-one else really had at the time. Also the type of tournament he chose to play in (like those IPL ones that were amazing) probably helped.
EPT
