Five years of endless war, of skirmishes and battles, of shifting tides and fickle blessings. Five years of gains and losses across a war-torn nation, reduced to little more than churned mud and shed blood. Yet here he stands, in the same spot overlooking the same valley, ready to make it five years and a month.
Not all are so fortunate. High atop the ridge, he can still taste the smoke from the wreckage-strewn valley. Only a day ago those charnel heaps were proud armies under famed generals. He frowns at the nearest fallen standard. The Man of Iron had led the final charge, they said, a desperate, doomed attempt to break free of the slaughter field. Such was the fate of the forsaken. He squints at what looks like the Sun’s sigil, but the bloody rag of a banner could have been anything. The gods know there are plenty to choose from.
Delayed by a petty trap, he’d arrived at this familiar battleground just as dusk turned to night. Too late to do anything except make camp on the ruins of yesteryear. To rally the stragglers and hear out their grim tales of disaster. Listening painted him an eerily reminiscent picture. By all accounts the enemy was in earnest–nine full armies shrouded in a blessed nimbus. Dawn lights tawdry standards in the smoke, staking out each of their chieftain’s conquests. Psychopaths and Assassins and would-be Kingslayers abound. And over all of them, the mark of the Deformed Avatar.
In his youth he would have charged down there, filled with righteous fury, hurling his army at the enemy lines until they broke or he did. Five years ago, he’d done exactly that, and reaped a bloody toll in the doing. For a single glorious moment he’d outshone the gods themselves. But in the end, it was not enough. In the end, he’d been forced to accept that fury alone was no match for divinity.
Now he is older. Wiser. Smarter. Fury has its time and place, but so too does patience. And discipline. And deception. Five years is time enough to cross the span of heaven and earth. To make oneself anew. To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Now he wears the thrice-forged crown of the ancient homeland. He is king, and this is his kingdom. And even the gods cannot deny that.
On April 12 2019 17:25 SHODAN wrote: I'm outta the loop. how's classic been performing vT lately?
That is a really good question, since he didn't need to qualify for super tournament, wasn't in IEM or WESG and didn't play a single terran on his way to this finals do we even know?
Not really up to speed on the online tournaments but as the big ones go we have nothing to go on for the entirety of 2019 I think?
Really hope for great games, going to cheer for Maru but hope it goes the full distance to game seven!
Five years of endless war, of skirmishes and battles, of shifting tides and fickle blessings. Five years of gains and losses across a war-torn nation, reduced to little more than churned mud and shed blood. Yet here he stands, in the same spot overlooking the same valley, ready to make it five years and a month.
Not all are so fortunate. High atop the ridge, he can still taste the smoke from the wreckage-strewn valley. Only a day ago those charnel heaps were proud armies under famed generals. He frowns at the nearest fallen standard. The Man of Iron had led the final charge, they said, a desperate, doomed attempt to break free of the slaughter field. Such was the fate of the forsaken. He squints at what looks like the Sun’s sigil, but the bloody rag of a banner could have been anything. The gods know there are plenty to choose from.
Delayed by a petty trap, he’d arrived at this familiar battleground just as dusk turned to night. Too late to do anything except make camp on the ruins of yesteryear. To rally the stragglers and hear out their grim tales of disaster. Listening painted him an eerily reminiscent picture. By all accounts the enemy was in earnest–nine full armies shrouded in a blessed nimbus. Dawn lights tawdry standards in the smoke, staking out each of their chieftain’s conquests. Psychopaths and Assassins and would-be Kingslayers abound. And over all of them, the mark of the Deformed Avatar.
In his youth he would have charged down there, filled with righteous fury, hurling his army at the enemy lines until they broke or he did. Five years ago, he’d done exactly that, and reaped a bloody toll in the doing. For a single glorious moment he’d outshone the gods themselves. But in the end, it was not enough. In the end, he’d been forced to accept that fury alone was no match for divinity.
Now he is older. Wiser. Smarter. Fury has its time and place, but so too does patience. And discipline. And deception. Five years is time enough to cross the span of heaven and earth. To make oneself anew. To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Now he wears the thrice-forged crown of the ancient homeland. He is king, and this is his kingdom. And even the gods cannot deny that.
On April 12 2019 19:32 HolydaKing wrote: Classic 4-0 Maru let's go!
On one hand, that would be really funny. On the other hand, that would mean the TvP matchup needs to be looked at immediately
It's not like Maru can't lose a single TvP in preparation format; he never did until now(and I doubt he will), still I hope Classic's extra motivation plays a role in this match.
The idea the Maru relies on having time to prepare is really dumb, but it is of course a lie that people trying to promote foreigners and WCS events will continue to perpetuate (so no point in engaging with it). Stop being so obsessed with stupid statistics and narratives and actually watch Maru play... his godlikeness is not because of his preparation, its his ridiculous intuition and mechanics.
In a recent interview, Maru said that the reason he didn't go far in IEM was because of his mental being bad - nothing to do with preparation. But no, armchair players would rather concoct their own crazy theories than listen to what Maru says.
Classic 4 - 3 Maru, and this could be even more one sided against Maru - Classic's preperation should be just too good.
On April 12 2019 21:29 Rodya wrote: The idea the Maru relies on having time to prepare is really dumb, but it is of course a lie that people trying to promote foreigners and WCS events will continue to perpetuate (so no point in engaging with it). Stop being so obsessed with stupid statistics and narratives and actually watch Maru play... his godlikeness is not because of his preparation, its his ridiculous intuition and mechanics.
In a recent interview, Maru said that the reason he didn't go far in IEM was because of his mental being bad - nothing to do with preparation. But no, armchair players would rather concoct their own crazy theories than listen to what Maru says.
Classic 4 - 3 Maru, and this could be even more one sided against Maru - Classic's preperation should be just too good.
Well it's more then he also underperformed at WESG... and Blizzcon... and Super Tournament... and GSLvsTW.. and the other Super Tournament. Whatever the reason clearly there something there, he's 4/4 getting to the final in GSL and 1/8 in weekender since the start of last year, so there must be something.
Still I think he beat Classic, his tvp seems unbeatable right now.
Edit: it's kinda like a reverse Taeja now that I think of it
On April 12 2019 21:29 Rodya wrote: The idea the Maru relies on having time to prepare is really dumb, but it is of course a lie that people trying to promote foreigners and WCS events will continue to perpetuate (so no point in engaging with it). Stop being so obsessed with stupid statistics and narratives and actually watch Maru play... his godlikeness is not because of his preparation, its his ridiculous intuition and mechanics.
In a recent interview, Maru said that the reason he didn't go far in IEM was because of his mental being bad - nothing to do with preparation. But no, armchair players would rather concoct their own crazy theories than listen to what Maru says.
Classic 4 - 3 Maru, and this could be even more one sided against Maru - Classic's preperation should be just too good.
First of all, welcome back.
While it's true that Maru has stellar mechanics, the fact he doesn't do that well when he has no time to prepare simply is a fact; just compare his results in Code S to the one he has in weekenders.
I hope you are right and that Classic is even better at preparing, Maru seems terribly scary in TvP(in Code S matches, while he is kind of weak to Protoss in other environments).
How peopel can say, Maru's mechanics are top noch and then also aknowledge that he relies in preparation? I know he does bad in weekenders but arent weekenders the ones that rely tthe more on mechanics?
Maru only under performed in weekend tournaments relative to his performance in GSL. 99% of players would have loved to have Maru's weekend tournament performance last year. Pretty much everyone besides Serral and Rogue did worse in weekenders last year. He went the entirety of last year without ever getting eliminated before ro8 in any tournament. He barely lost to Rogue at IEM in a super close bo5 and then besides that he only got eliminated in a variety of TvPs against the absolute best protoss players. Maru's weakness in weekend tournaments is vastly overstated and the weakness has barely anything to do with prep factor. It more has to do with him using ST/GSL vs The World as breaks in his practice regimen and for other tournaments jet lag and travel conditions.
On April 13 2019 04:32 Argonauta wrote: How peopel can say, Maru's mechanics are top noch and then also aknowledge that he relies in preparation? I know he does bad in weekenders but arent weekenders the ones that rely tthe more on mechanics?
Well, if you look at Maru's games it's pretty clear his micro and macro are very good, preparation time alone don't magically enhance mechanics. Still, he loses weekenders and he dominates Code S; it must be some psychological factor or the inability of reading series on the fly, I'm not sure.
It makes intuitive sense that weekenders rely more on raw mechanics and execution of broadly successful strategies, while tournaments over a longer period of time allow people to prepare for a specific opponent. There's no question that Maru excels at all of these skills, but it's striking that the guy who at this point won 1 OSL, 1 SSL, 3 GSL and is in his 4th final only ever managed to win one weekender (WeSG 2017). Even back in 2013, right after winning the OSL, demolishing Symbol & Innovation along the way, he dropped out against aLive and Scarlett in the WCS Season 2 right after it. We've never had a guy be this successful in long tournaments fail to translate that success into weekender success. None of us know the real answer, so we jump to the most obvious difference between these types of tournaments, which is preparation.
In his case, I agree his mechanics are always top-notch, but his choice of strategy seems to be more hit & miss outside of GSL. Sometimes he looks like the Maru we're used to from GSL, sometimes he plays like he did against sOs in Blizzcon. During Katowice he was the only one to beat Dark in the group stage, but then he also lost to Trap 0-2 & Neeb 1-2, whom he destroyed in the GSL semi's & WeSG respectively. Even within this GSL he looked slightly shakier during group stages, then looks like a complete beast during the play-offs.
Maybe it's not preparation, but a mental edge. Whatever the case, it's a notable pattern.
Out of curiosity, what's the most of any premier tournaments (MSLs and OSLs etc) that a single player won in a row in Brood War? I think Flash won 3 OSLs in a row (and then later, 3 ASLs in a row). Has 4 of any one tournament in a row ever been done before?
On April 13 2019 05:30 TheDougler wrote: Out of curiosity, what's the most of any premier tournaments (MSLs and OSLs etc) that a single player won in a row in Brood War? I think Flash won 3 OSLs in a row (and then later, 3 ASLs in a row). Has 4 of any one tournament in a row ever been done before?
Flash never won two OSL's in a row, only Jaedong, BoxeR (Correction: and Jangbi) did that. Flash did make 3 finals in a row (like BoxeR), won against Movie, lost to Effort, then beat Jaedong. NaDa & iloveoov won 3 MSL's in a row, Savior, Bisu & Flash won two in a row. Hydra got one between Flash's second and third win. Only Flash won multiple ASL's in a row (3).
No player in the history of BW ever won 4 of any premier tournament, which is still true since Effort beat Flash in his fourth final.
Jaedong (OSL), Savior (MSL), Flash (ASL) all reached one more final after winning 3. Nada even reached 3 more MSL finals after winning 3, but they all lost. BoxeR reached 6 OSL finals (most of any player) too, but only won 2. Savior managed to reach 5 MSL finals in a row (and won 3), which is longer than the SC2 record currently held by soO & Maru.
On April 12 2019 21:29 Rodya wrote: The idea the Maru relies on having time to prepare is really dumb, but it is of course a lie that people trying to promote foreigners and WCS events will continue to perpetuate (so no point in engaging with it). Stop being so obsessed with stupid statistics and narratives and actually watch Maru play... his godlikeness is not because of his preparation, its his ridiculous intuition and mechanics.
In a recent interview, Maru said that the reason he didn't go far in IEM was because of his mental being bad - nothing to do with preparation. But no, armchair players would rather concoct their own crazy theories than listen to what Maru says.
Classic 4 - 3 Maru, and this could be even more one sided against Maru - Classic's preperation should be just too good.
Well it's more then he also underperformed at WESG... and Blizzcon... and Super Tournament... and GSLvsTW.. and the other Super Tournament. Whatever the reason clearly there something there, he's 4/4 getting to the final in GSL and 1/8 in weekender since the start of last year, so there must be something.
Still I think he beat Classic, his tvp seems unbeatable right now.
Edit: it's kinda like a reverse Taeja now that I think of it
I honestly think that people underrate him in the weekenders. Last year he made the semis of Katowice only to lose in a reverse sweep by the eventual champion and teammate in Rogue. Then he won WESG. And he made the semi's of GSL vs. the World, not bad results by any margin. The disappointments are ST and Blizzcon, but ST isn't all that important so the only real disappointment is Blizzcon and IEM this year. It really isn't as bad as you might think.
On April 12 2019 21:29 Rodya wrote: The idea the Maru relies on having time to prepare is really dumb, but it is of course a lie that people trying to promote foreigners and WCS events will continue to perpetuate (so no point in engaging with it). Stop being so obsessed with stupid statistics and narratives and actually watch Maru play... his godlikeness is not because of his preparation, its his ridiculous intuition and mechanics.
In a recent interview, Maru said that the reason he didn't go far in IEM was because of his mental being bad - nothing to do with preparation. But no, armchair players would rather concoct their own crazy theories than listen to what Maru says.
Classic 4 - 3 Maru, and this could be even more one sided against Maru - Classic's preperation should be just too good.
Well it's more then he also underperformed at WESG... and Blizzcon... and Super Tournament... and GSLvsTW.. and the other Super Tournament. Whatever the reason clearly there something there, he's 4/4 getting to the final in GSL and 1/8 in weekender since the start of last year, so there must be something.
Still I think he beat Classic, his tvp seems unbeatable right now.
Edit: it's kinda like a reverse Taeja now that I think of it
I honestly think that people underrate him in the weekenders. Last year he made the semis of Katowice only to lose in a reverse sweep by the eventual champion and teammate in Rogue. Then he won WESG. And he made the semi's of GSL vs. the World, not bad results by any margin. The disappointments are ST and Blizzcon, but ST isn't all that important so the only real disappointment is Blizzcon and IEM this year. It really isn't as bad as you might think.
and he did make the finals of IEM Taipei 2015 and took Life to game 7 (well now I'm sad, this should've been a long running rivalry by now)
On April 13 2019 04:32 Argonauta wrote: How peopel can say, Maru's mechanics are top noch and then also aknowledge that he relies in preparation? I know he does bad in weekenders but arent weekenders the ones that rely tthe more on mechanics?
Well, if you look at Maru's games it's pretty clear his micro and macro are very good, preparation time alone don't magically enhance mechanics. Still, he loses weekenders and he dominates Code S; it must be some psychological factor or the inability of reading series on the fly, I'm not sure.
Yeah right because dominating Code S does not require reading series on the fly.
On April 13 2019 04:32 Argonauta wrote: How peopel can say, Maru's mechanics are top noch and then also aknowledge that he relies in preparation? I know he does bad in weekenders but arent weekenders the ones that rely tthe more on mechanics?
Well, if you look at Maru's games it's pretty clear his micro and macro are very good, preparation time alone don't magically enhance mechanics. Still, he loses weekenders and he dominates Code S; it must be some psychological factor or the inability of reading series on the fly, I'm not sure.
Yeah right because dominating Code S does not require reading series on the fly.
Less so than a weekender I guess. In any of case, I am not sure why Maru is doing relatively bad in non preparation formats, but I think we can agree there must be one reason? It seems to happen too often, what is your explanation?
On April 12 2019 21:29 Rodya wrote: The idea the Maru relies on having time to prepare is really dumb, but it is of course a lie that people trying to promote foreigners and WCS events will continue to perpetuate (so no point in engaging with it). Stop being so obsessed with stupid statistics and narratives and actually watch Maru play... his godlikeness is not because of his preparation, its his ridiculous intuition and mechanics.
In a recent interview, Maru said that the reason he didn't go far in IEM was because of his mental being bad - nothing to do with preparation. But no, armchair players would rather concoct their own crazy theories than listen to what Maru says.
Classic 4 - 3 Maru, and this could be even more one sided against Maru - Classic's preperation should be just too good.
Well it's more then he also underperformed at WESG... and Blizzcon... and Super Tournament... and GSLvsTW.. and the other Super Tournament. Whatever the reason clearly there something there, he's 4/4 getting to the final in GSL and 1/8 in weekender since the start of last year, so there must be something.
Still I think he beat Classic, his tvp seems unbeatable right now.
Edit: it's kinda like a reverse Taeja now that I think of it
I honestly think that people underrate him in the weekenders. Last year he made the semis of Katowice only to lose in a reverse sweep by the eventual champion and teammate in Rogue. Then he won WESG. And he made the semi's of GSL vs. the World, not bad results by any margin. The disappointments are ST and Blizzcon, but ST isn't all that important so the only real disappointment is Blizzcon and IEM this year. It really isn't as bad as you might think.
and he did make the finals of IEM Taipei 2015 and took Life to game 7 https://youtu.be/Kbwk2vwXNyU (well now I'm sad, this should've been a long running rivalry by now)
Both that and the katowice ro4 vs Rogue were lost because he misbuilt his wall in one of the games. Would have been crushing victories otherwise.
On April 13 2019 04:32 Argonauta wrote: How peopel can say, Maru's mechanics are top noch and then also aknowledge that he relies in preparation? I know he does bad in weekenders but arent weekenders the ones that rely tthe more on mechanics?
Well, if you look at Maru's games it's pretty clear his micro and macro are very good, preparation time alone don't magically enhance mechanics. Still, he loses weekenders and he dominates Code S; it must be some psychological factor or the inability of reading series on the fly, I'm not sure.
Yeah right because dominating Code S does not require reading series on the fly.
Less so than a weekender I guess. In any of case, I am not sure why Maru is doing relatively bad in non preparation formats, but I think we can agree there must be one reason? It seems to happen too often, what is your explanation?
Just the fact that you suggest that reading a BoX in a Code S is different to that of in a weekend tournament completely blows my mind.
On April 13 2019 04:32 Argonauta wrote: How peopel can say, Maru's mechanics are top noch and then also aknowledge that he relies in preparation? I know he does bad in weekenders but arent weekenders the ones that rely tthe more on mechanics?
Well, if you look at Maru's games it's pretty clear his micro and macro are very good, preparation time alone don't magically enhance mechanics. Still, he loses weekenders and he dominates Code S; it must be some psychological factor or the inability of reading series on the fly, I'm not sure.
Yeah right because dominating Code S does not require reading series on the fly.
Less so than a weekender I guess. In any of case, I am not sure why Maru is doing relatively bad in non preparation formats, but I think we can agree there must be one reason? It seems to happen too often, what is your explanation?
Well weekenders are typically overseas events. There's a good chance he just isn't as good with travel. Some people aren't.
He also plays terran which (for the last nearly two years) does badly in weekenders. It's not like Maru does badly compared to other terrans in them.
On April 13 2019 04:32 Argonauta wrote: How peopel can say, Maru's mechanics are top noch and then also aknowledge that he relies in preparation? I know he does bad in weekenders but arent weekenders the ones that rely tthe more on mechanics?
Well, if you look at Maru's games it's pretty clear his micro and macro are very good, preparation time alone don't magically enhance mechanics. Still, he loses weekenders and he dominates Code S; it must be some psychological factor or the inability of reading series on the fly, I'm not sure.
Yeah right because dominating Code S does not require reading series on the fly.
Less so than a weekender I guess. In any of case, I am not sure why Maru is doing relatively bad in non preparation formats, but I think we can agree there must be one reason? It seems to happen too often, what is your explanation?
Just the fact that you suggest that reading a BoX in a Code S is different to that of in a weekend tournament completely blows my mind.
There is no point in me explaining anything more.
Then there is no point in you replying to me at all since you actually did not say anything.
"On the fly" of course means immediately, preparation however involves imaginining different scenarios in the boX making it more comfortable to actually face the full series; during KeSpa times in Brood Wars players used to meticolously analize every single move that could be made as counter to the builds they were planning to use, I guess that makes it easier to react accordingly, don't you?
On April 13 2019 04:32 Argonauta wrote: How peopel can say, Maru's mechanics are top noch and then also aknowledge that he relies in preparation? I know he does bad in weekenders but arent weekenders the ones that rely tthe more on mechanics?
Well, if you look at Maru's games it's pretty clear his micro and macro are very good, preparation time alone don't magically enhance mechanics. Still, he loses weekenders and he dominates Code S; it must be some psychological factor or the inability of reading series on the fly, I'm not sure.
Yeah right because dominating Code S does not require reading series on the fly.
Less so than a weekender I guess. In any of case, I am not sure why Maru is doing relatively bad in non preparation formats, but I think we can agree there must be one reason? It seems to happen too often, what is your explanation?
Just the fact that you suggest that reading a BoX in a Code S is different to that of in a weekend tournament completely blows my mind.
There is no point in me explaining anything more.
Then there is no point in you replying to me at all since you actually did not say anything.
"On the fly" of course means immediately, preparation however involves imaginining different scenarios in the boX making it more comfortable to actually face the full series; during KeSpa times in Brood Wars players used to meticolously analize every single move that could be made as counter to the builds they were planning to use, I guess that makes it easier to react accordingly, don't you?
I did say something. Read the first line of my post.
You on the whole count preparation way too much as a factor. The level these guys are almost nothing can make it comfortable to face the full series as you say. Even if they having some expectation of the kind of openers their opponent would go for all that can be shaken up by one cheesy build. A recent example would be Classic vs Dark.
Another example is Mary vs TY season 3 finals. You can see Maru constantly adapting to TY throughout the series and still opening proxy rax almost each game. Maru never really had specific builds prepared for each map or anything. By the end the way TY had been playing overall Maru knew that TY would go for the safest/greediest build and thus went for an allin. So how is that different from reading a series during a weekender?
On April 13 2019 04:32 Argonauta wrote: How peopel can say, Maru's mechanics are top noch and then also aknowledge that he relies in preparation? I know he does bad in weekenders but arent weekenders the ones that rely tthe more on mechanics?
Well, if you look at Maru's games it's pretty clear his micro and macro are very good, preparation time alone don't magically enhance mechanics. Still, he loses weekenders and he dominates Code S; it must be some psychological factor or the inability of reading series on the fly, I'm not sure.
Yeah right because dominating Code S does not require reading series on the fly.
Less so than a weekender I guess. In any of case, I am not sure why Maru is doing relatively bad in non preparation formats, but I think we can agree there must be one reason? It seems to happen too often, what is your explanation?
Just the fact that you suggest that reading a BoX in a Code S is different to that of in a weekend tournament completely blows my mind.
There is no point in me explaining anything more.
Then there is no point in you replying to me at all since you actually did not say anything.
"On the fly" of course means immediately, preparation however involves imaginining different scenarios in the boX making it more comfortable to actually face the full series; during KeSpa times in Brood Wars players used to meticolously analize every single move that could be made as counter to the builds they were planning to use, I guess that makes it easier to react accordingly, don't you?
I did say something. Read the first line of my post.
You on the whole count preparation way too much as a factor. The level these guys are almost nothing can make it comfortable to face the full series as you say. Even if they having some expectation of the kind of openers their opponent would go for all that can be shaken up by one cheesy build. A recent example would be Classic vs Dark.
Another example is Mary vs TY season 3 finals. You can see Maru constantly adapting to TY throughout the series and still opening proxy rax almost each game. Maru never really had specific builds prepared for each map or anything. By the end the way TY had been playing overall Maru knew that TY would go for the safest/greediest build and thus went for an allin. So how is that different from reading a series during a weekender?
Ok, let's assume preparation does not count: Maru always has top notch mechanics, his ability of reading the series and adapting on the spot is immaculate; how comes he only won one weekender? He definitely doesn't love travelling and that might be a factor; it has to be noted Super Tournaments and GSL vs the World are played in Korea just as Code S.
On April 13 2019 04:32 Argonauta wrote: How peopel can say, Maru's mechanics are top noch and then also aknowledge that he relies in preparation? I know he does bad in weekenders but arent weekenders the ones that rely tthe more on mechanics?
Well, if you look at Maru's games it's pretty clear his micro and macro are very good, preparation time alone don't magically enhance mechanics. Still, he loses weekenders and he dominates Code S; it must be some psychological factor or the inability of reading series on the fly, I'm not sure.
Yeah right because dominating Code S does not require reading series on the fly.
Less so than a weekender I guess. In any of case, I am not sure why Maru is doing relatively bad in non preparation formats, but I think we can agree there must be one reason? It seems to happen too often, what is your explanation?
Just the fact that you suggest that reading a BoX in a Code S is different to that of in a weekend tournament completely blows my mind.
There is no point in me explaining anything more.
Then there is no point in you replying to me at all since you actually did not say anything.
"On the fly" of course means immediately, preparation however involves imaginining different scenarios in the boX making it more comfortable to actually face the full series; during KeSpa times in Brood Wars players used to meticolously analize every single move that could be made as counter to the builds they were planning to use, I guess that makes it easier to react accordingly, don't you?
I did say something. Read the first line of my post.
You on the whole count preparation way too much as a factor. The level these guys are almost nothing can make it comfortable to face the full series as you say. Even if they having some expectation of the kind of openers their opponent would go for all that can be shaken up by one cheesy build. A recent example would be Classic vs Dark.
Another example is Mary vs TY season 3 finals. You can see Maru constantly adapting to TY throughout the series and still opening proxy rax almost each game. Maru never really had specific builds prepared for each map or anything. By the end the way TY had been playing overall Maru knew that TY would go for the safest/greediest build and thus went for an allin. So how is that different from reading a series during a weekender?
it has to be noted Super Tournaments and GSL vs the World are played in Korea just as Code S.
The fact he didn't seem to give a shit about super tournaments and GSLvsTW would probably suggest why he didn't do as well. Even his mechanics were worse in those events than in Code S, which fits with the fact he said he didn't practice and used them as break time.
Five years of endless war, of skirmishes and battles, of shifting tides and fickle blessings. Five years of gains and losses across a war-torn nation, reduced to little more than churned mud and shed blood. Yet here he stands, in the same spot overlooking the same valley, ready to make it five years and a month.
Not all are so fortunate. High atop the ridge, he can still taste the smoke from the wreckage-strewn valley. Only a day ago those charnel heaps were proud armies under famed generals. He frowns at the nearest fallen standard. The Man of Iron had led the final charge, they said, a desperate, doomed attempt to break free of the slaughter field. Such was the fate of the forsaken. He squints at what looks like the Sun’s sigil, but the bloody rag of a banner could have been anything. The gods know there are plenty to choose from.
Delayed by a petty trap, he’d arrived at this familiar battleground just as dusk turned to night. Too late to do anything except make camp on the ruins of yesteryear. To rally the stragglers and hear out their grim tales of disaster. Listening painted him an eerily reminiscent picture. By all accounts the enemy was in earnest–nine full armies shrouded in a blessed nimbus. Dawn lights tawdry standards in the smoke, staking out each of their chieftain’s conquests. Psychopaths and Assassins and would-be Kingslayers abound. And over all of them, the mark of the Deformed Avatar.
In his youth he would have charged down there, filled with righteous fury, hurling his army at the enemy lines until they broke or he did. Five years ago, he’d done exactly that, and reaped a bloody toll in the doing. For a single glorious moment he’d outshone the gods themselves. But in the end, it was not enough. In the end, he’d been forced to accept that fury alone was no match for divinity.
Now he is older. Wiser. Smarter. Fury has its time and place, but so too does patience. And discipline. And deception. Five years is time enough to cross the span of heaven and earth. To make oneself anew. To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Now he wears the thrice-forged crown of the ancient homeland. He is king, and this is his kingdom. And even the gods cannot deny that.
On April 12 2019 21:29 Rodya wrote: The idea the Maru relies on having time to prepare is really dumb, but it is of course a lie that people trying to promote foreigners and WCS events will continue to perpetuate (so no point in engaging with it). Stop being so obsessed with stupid statistics and narratives and actually watch Maru play... his godlikeness is not because of his preparation, its his ridiculous intuition and mechanics.
In a recent interview, Maru said that the reason he didn't go far in IEM was because of his mental being bad - nothing to do with preparation. But no, armchair players would rather concoct their own crazy theories than listen to what Maru says.
Classic 4 - 3 Maru, and this could be even more one sided against Maru - Classic's preperation should be just too good.
Well it's more then he also underperformed at WESG... and Blizzcon... and Super Tournament... and GSLvsTW.. and the other Super Tournament. Whatever the reason clearly there something there, he's 4/4 getting to the final in GSL and 1/8 in weekender since the start of last year, so there must be something.
Still I think he beat Classic, his tvp seems unbeatable right now.
Edit: it's kinda like a reverse Taeja now that I think of it
I honestly think that people underrate him in the weekenders. Last year he made the semis of Katowice only to lose in a reverse sweep by the eventual champion and teammate in Rogue. Then he won WESG. And he made the semi's of GSL vs. the World, not bad results by any margin. The disappointments are ST and Blizzcon, but ST isn't all that important so the only real disappointment is Blizzcon and IEM this year. It really isn't as bad as you might think.
and he did make the finals of IEM Taipei 2015 and took Life to game 7 https://youtu.be/Kbwk2vwXNyU (well now I'm sad, this should've been a long running rivalry by now)
On April 12 2019 21:29 Rodya wrote: The idea the Maru relies on having time to prepare is really dumb, but it is of course a lie that people trying to promote foreigners and WCS events will continue to perpetuate (so no point in engaging with it). Stop being so obsessed with stupid statistics and narratives and actually watch Maru play... his godlikeness is not because of his preparation, its his ridiculous intuition and mechanics.
In a recent interview, Maru said that the reason he didn't go far in IEM was because of his mental being bad - nothing to do with preparation. But no, armchair players would rather concoct their own crazy theories than listen to what Maru says.
Classic 4 - 3 Maru, and this could be even more one sided against Maru - Classic's preperation should be just too good.
Well it's more then he also underperformed at WESG... and Blizzcon... and Super Tournament... and GSLvsTW.. and the other Super Tournament. Whatever the reason clearly there something there, he's 4/4 getting to the final in GSL and 1/8 in weekender since the start of last year, so there must be something.
Still I think he beat Classic, his tvp seems unbeatable right now.
Edit: it's kinda like a reverse Taeja now that I think of it
I honestly think that people underrate him in the weekenders. Last year he made the semis of Katowice only to lose in a reverse sweep by the eventual champion and teammate in Rogue. Then he won WESG. And he made the semi's of GSL vs. the World, not bad results by any margin. The disappointments are ST and Blizzcon, but ST isn't all that important so the only real disappointment is Blizzcon and IEM this year. It really isn't as bad as you might think.
and he did make the finals of IEM Taipei 2015 and took Life to game 7 https://youtu.be/Kbwk2vwXNyU (well now I'm sad, this should've been a long running rivalry by now)
Life probably let him win
Life was actually extremely hangover during the series (had to vomit in between the games), which at least partially explains how Maru kept it competitive after the stomp in game 1.
Classic looking good but.....when you actually watch Maru you suddenly realize he is in his bonjwa shoes atm. Untouchable unfuc...ble. Anyway hoping for at least 6 games with one long macro.
On April 13 2019 04:32 Argonauta wrote: How peopel can say, Maru's mechanics are top noch and then also aknowledge that he relies in preparation? I know he does bad in weekenders but arent weekenders the ones that rely tthe more on mechanics?
Well, if you look at Maru's games it's pretty clear his micro and macro are very good, preparation time alone don't magically enhance mechanics. Still, he loses weekenders and he dominates Code S; it must be some psychological factor or the inability of reading series on the fly, I'm not sure.
Yeah right because dominating Code S does not require reading series on the fly.
Less so than a weekender I guess. In any of case, I am not sure why Maru is doing relatively bad in non preparation formats, but I think we can agree there must be one reason? It seems to happen too often, what is your explanation?
Just the fact that you suggest that reading a BoX in a Code S is different to that of in a weekend tournament completely blows my mind.
There is no point in me explaining anything more.
Then there is no point in you replying to me at all since you actually did not say anything.
"On the fly" of course means immediately, preparation however involves imaginining different scenarios in the boX making it more comfortable to actually face the full series; during KeSpa times in Brood Wars players used to meticolously analize every single move that could be made as counter to the builds they were planning to use, I guess that makes it easier to react accordingly, don't you?
I did say something. Read the first line of my post.
You on the whole count preparation way too much as a factor. The level these guys are almost nothing can make it comfortable to face the full series as you say. Even if they having some expectation of the kind of openers their opponent would go for all that can be shaken up by one cheesy build. A recent example would be Classic vs Dark.
Another example is Mary vs TY season 3 finals. You can see Maru constantly adapting to TY throughout the series and still opening proxy rax almost each game. Maru never really had specific builds prepared for each map or anything. By the end the way TY had been playing overall Maru knew that TY would go for the safest/greediest build and thus went for an allin. So how is that different from reading a series during a weekender?
Ok, let's assume preparation does not count: Maru always has top notch mechanics, his ability of reading the series and adapting on the spot is immaculate; how comes he only won one weekender? He definitely doesn't love travelling and that might be a factor; it has to be noted Super Tournaments and GSL vs the World are played in Korea just as Code S.
It honestly makes close to zero sense to me looking in as an outsider. Perhaps he just has certain particular nerve/environment issues or something like that. Can only speculate without knowing the guy and how he's wired. Some players show their absolute best level of play on ladder with nothing on the line and relaxing in their house, some people actually just play better in tournaments where adrenaline and pressure seems to help them focus, people are strange creatures.
It does just seem odd because unless you're terrible strategically, being a mechanical monster tends to be super, super important for a weekender. You can't prep, that works both ways, your opponents can't prep that hard for you either, so in theory Mr Mechanics should be able to be more consistent in that environment.
Taeja in weekenders wasn't particularly atypically smart or bringing new builds to a tournament, he seemed to mostly win with a mechanical/consistency of execution advantage over the fields of the day, and Maru absolutely has that advantage in his locker, although it's probably less pronounced and harder to be that much better than your opponents mechanically these days.
Also it is just difficult to win get over the line and win things anyway (just ask soO historically), his weekend record isn't that bad at all (well it's very good actually) he just hasn't actually won much. He's judged by his own crazy GSL peak rather than vs the standards of the scene. If some new Terran called Uram turned up and had equivalent weekender results, he'd be hyped as hell as one of the best players in the scene.
Starcraft 2 is quite similar to golf in competitivity, where placing top 10 consistently over a period means you're elite level, doing that and winning the odd tournament (especially a major) means you're 100% one of the best players in the world, and nobody has ever really won even close to every tournament they have entered, even the GOATs
On April 12 2019 19:32 HolydaKing wrote: Classic 4-0 Maru let's go!
On one hand, that would be really funny. On the other hand, that would mean the TvP matchup needs to be looked at immediately
the fact that people actually think this way is so absurd to me. we literally worship individual players to the point where they aren't "allowed" to have off days or play badly. it's so intellectually bankrupt to be planning balance whines ahead of time just in case someone loses, without having seen any games. we used to do this with Innovation too
On April 13 2019 05:30 TheDougler wrote: Out of curiosity, what's the most of any premier tournaments (MSLs and OSLs etc) that a single player won in a row in Brood War? I think Flash won 3 OSLs in a row (and then later, 3 ASLs in a row). Has 4 of any one tournament in a row ever been done before?
Flash never won two OSL's in a row, only Jaedong and BoxeR did that. Flash did make 3 finals in a row (like BoxeR), won against Movie, lost to Effort, then beat Jaedong. NaDa & iloveoov won 3 MSL's in a row, Savior, Bisu & Flash won two in a row. Hydra got one between Flash's second and third win. Only Flash won multiple ASL's in a row (3).
No player in the history of BW ever won 4 of any premier tournament, which is still true since Effort beat Flash in his fourth final.
Jaedong (OSL), Savior (MSL), Flash (ASL) all reached one more final after winning 3. Nada even reached 3 more MSL finals after winning 3, but they all lost. BoxeR reached 6 OSL finals (most of any player) too, but only won 2. Savior managed to reach 5 MSL finals in a row (and won 3), which is longer than the SC2 record currently held by soO & Maru.
Didn't Jangbi win 2 in a row? They were in different years though.
On April 12 2019 19:32 HolydaKing wrote: Classic 4-0 Maru let's go!
On one hand, that would be really funny. On the other hand, that would mean the TvP matchup needs to be looked at immediately
the fact that people actually think this way is so absurd to me. we literally worship individual players to the point where they aren't "allowed" to have off days or play badly. it's so intellectually bankrupt to be planning balance whines ahead of time just in case someone loses, without having seen any games. we used to do this with Innovation too
It's funny how it's never the opposite.
Since LotV was released, Protoss only won 2 Code S, and Zerg only won a SINGLE Code S (compared to Terran 6). Nobody bats an eye at those facts tho
On April 12 2019 19:32 HolydaKing wrote: Classic 4-0 Maru let's go!
On one hand, that would be really funny. On the other hand, that would mean the TvP matchup needs to be looked at immediately
the fact that people actually think this way is so absurd to me. we literally worship individual players to the point where they aren't "allowed" to have off days or play badly. it's so intellectually bankrupt to be planning balance whines ahead of time just in case someone loses, without having seen any games. we used to do this with Innovation too
Nobody bats an eye at those facts tho
well it would be extremely unwise to play race apologist's game.no one should ever mention race winning history or individual performance when talking about the current balance tho force them to play your own game and you will seldomly lose an argument
On April 12 2019 19:32 HolydaKing wrote: Classic 4-0 Maru let's go!
On one hand, that would be really funny. On the other hand, that would mean the TvP matchup needs to be looked at immediately
the fact that people actually think this way is so absurd to me. we literally worship individual players to the point where they aren't "allowed" to have off days or play badly. it's so intellectually bankrupt to be planning balance whines ahead of time just in case someone loses, without having seen any games. we used to do this with Innovation too
It's funny how it's never the opposite.
Since LotV was released, Protoss only won 2 Code S, and Zerg only won a SINGLE Code S (compared to Terran 6). Nobody bats an eye at those facts tho
Well the goalposts just seem to shift all the time. When Terran have strong periods they’re just better players, when they have relative weak periods it’s ‘you have to be as good as Maru to win anything.’
Well no shit, you have to be amongst the best players of your race to win tournaments in the current era. Which is true across the races. Innovation just won WESG, Terrans don’t seem to be doing too badly in the Code S qualifications, although they had a bad super tournament.
I like Starcraft 2’s racial asymmetry a lot, more so than Brood War and certainly way more than Warcraft 3’s, although there are elements of those games I like a lot more than SC2
The races play differently in fundamentally ways, and they reward different skillsets so there’s room for different types of player to prosper.
Crudely (really crudely) speaking Protoss rely on tricks and super tight builds and timings, and mixing it up, although easiest mechanically. Zerg rely on reading tricks and making smart defensive decisions and juggling their larva mechanic, are crazy APM dependent if you are aiming to hit every inject and have a ton of ceiling there. Terran you do have to have some aggression and technical builds to slow down the other races, but you’re less reliant on outright tricks than Protoss, but you can get way more out of your units with micro, conversely your units are way worse with bad micro.
Terrans have balance whined since Wings (those that do) along a vague rationale of ‘we have to micro so hard’ or more nuanced variants, and ignore the other side of the coin consistently.
Regardless of who wins, and I hope it’s Classic (purely for him to get it before military and for being a consistently great player), there will 100% be at least one game where Classic is in some situation where Maru displays some stellar micro and crushes Classic and people wax lyrical about it, ignoring the fact that Classic literally can’t do that micro with his units.
On April 12 2019 19:32 HolydaKing wrote: Classic 4-0 Maru let's go!
On one hand, that would be really funny. On the other hand, that would mean the TvP matchup needs to be looked at immediately
the fact that people actually think this way is so absurd to me. we literally worship individual players to the point where they aren't "allowed" to have off days or play badly. it's so intellectually bankrupt to be planning balance whines ahead of time just in case someone loses, without having seen any games. we used to do this with Innovation too
Nobody bats an eye at those facts tho
well it would be extremely unwise to play race apologist's game.no one should ever mention race winning history or individual performance when talking about the current balance tho force them to play your own game and you will seldomly lose an argument
race winning history is not irrelevant. it is a testament to the general design of the races, as well as a benchmark for the effectiveness of subsequent balance changes.
On April 12 2019 19:32 HolydaKing wrote: Classic 4-0 Maru let's go!
On one hand, that would be really funny. On the other hand, that would mean the TvP matchup needs to be looked at immediately
the fact that people actually think this way is so absurd to me. we literally worship individual players to the point where they aren't "allowed" to have off days or play badly. it's so intellectually bankrupt to be planning balance whines ahead of time just in case someone loses, without having seen any games. we used to do this with Innovation too
It's funny how it's never the opposite.
Since LotV was released, Protoss only won 2 Code S, and Zerg only won a SINGLE Code S (compared to Terran 6). Nobody bats an eye at those facts tho
Well the goalposts just seem to shift all the time. When Terran have strong periods they’re just better players, when they have relative weak periods it’s ‘you have to be as good as Maru to win anything.’
Well no shit, you have to be amongst the best players of your race to win tournaments in the current era. Which is true across the races. Innovation just won WESG, Terrans don’t seem to be doing too badly in the Code S qualifications, although they had a bad super tournament.
I like Starcraft 2’s racial asymmetry a lot, more so than Brood War and certainly way more than Warcraft 3’s, although there are elements of those games I like a lot more than SC2
The races play differently in fundamentally ways, and they reward different skillsets so there’s room for different types of player to prosper.
Crudely (really crudely) speaking Protoss rely on tricks and super tight builds and timings, and mixing it up, although easiest mechanically. Zerg rely on reading tricks and making smart defensive decisions and juggling their larva mechanic, are crazy APM dependent if you are aiming to hit every inject and have a ton of ceiling there. Terran you do have to have some aggression and technical builds to slow down the other races, but you’re less reliant on outright tricks than Protoss, but you can get way more out of your units with micro, conversely your units are way worse with bad micro.
Terrans have balance whined since Wings (those that do) along a vague rationale of ‘we have to micro so hard’ or more nuanced variants, and ignore the other side of the coin consistently.
Regardless of who wins, and I hope it’s Classic (purely for him to get it before military and for being a consistently great player), there will 100% be at least one game where Classic is in some situation where Maru displays some stellar micro and crushes Classic and people wax lyrical about it, ignoring the fact that Classic literally can’t do that micro with his units.
Yup, exactly. I've had people on this site literally tell me that the top Terran players are just more skilled lmfao
the only part is disagree with is that terran units are way worse with bad micro. Protoss armies are the worst with poor control . Not microing terran units has a higher opportunity cost, though.
I'm pulling for classic as well, for the same reason.
On April 12 2019 19:32 HolydaKing wrote: Classic 4-0 Maru let's go!
On one hand, that would be really funny. On the other hand, that would mean the TvP matchup needs to be looked at immediately
the fact that people actually think this way is so absurd to me. we literally worship individual players to the point where they aren't "allowed" to have off days or play badly. it's so intellectually bankrupt to be planning balance whines ahead of time just in case someone loses, without having seen any games. we used to do this with Innovation too
Nobody bats an eye at those facts tho
well it would be extremely unwise to play race apologist's game.no one should ever mention race winning history or individual performance when talking about the current balance tho force them to play your own game and you will seldomly lose an argument
race winning history is not irrelevant. it is a testament to the general design of the races, as well as a benchmark for the effectiveness of subsequent balance changes.
On April 12 2019 19:32 HolydaKing wrote: Classic 4-0 Maru let's go!
On one hand, that would be really funny. On the other hand, that would mean the TvP matchup needs to be looked at immediately
the fact that people actually think this way is so absurd to me. we literally worship individual players to the point where they aren't "allowed" to have off days or play badly. it's so intellectually bankrupt to be planning balance whines ahead of time just in case someone loses, without having seen any games. we used to do this with Innovation too
It's funny how it's never the opposite.
Since LotV was released, Protoss only won 2 Code S, and Zerg only won a SINGLE Code S (compared to Terran 6). Nobody bats an eye at those facts tho
Well the goalposts just seem to shift all the time. When Terran have strong periods they’re just better players, when they have relative weak periods it’s ‘you have to be as good as Maru to win anything.’
Well no shit, you have to be amongst the best players of your race to win tournaments in the current era. Which is true across the races. Innovation just won WESG, Terrans don’t seem to be doing too badly in the Code S qualifications, although they had a bad super tournament.
I like Starcraft 2’s racial asymmetry a lot, more so than Brood War and certainly way more than Warcraft 3’s, although there are elements of those games I like a lot more than SC2
The races play differently in fundamentally ways, and they reward different skillsets so there’s room for different types of player to prosper.
Crudely (really crudely) speaking Protoss rely on tricks and super tight builds and timings, and mixing it up, although easiest mechanically. Zerg rely on reading tricks and making smart defensive decisions and juggling their larva mechanic, are crazy APM dependent if you are aiming to hit every inject and have a ton of ceiling there. Terran you do have to have some aggression and technical builds to slow down the other races, but you’re less reliant on outright tricks than Protoss, but you can get way more out of your units with micro, conversely your units are way worse with bad micro.
Terrans have balance whined since Wings (those that do) along a vague rationale of ‘we have to micro so hard’ or more nuanced variants, and ignore the other side of the coin consistently.
Regardless of who wins, and I hope it’s Classic (purely for him to get it before military and for being a consistently great player), there will 100% be at least one game where Classic is in some situation where Maru displays some stellar micro and crushes Classic and people wax lyrical about it, ignoring the fact that Classic literally can’t do that micro with his units.
Yup, exactly. I've had people on this site literally tell me that the top Terran players are just more skilled lmfao
the only part is disagree with is that terran units are way worse with bad micro. Protoss armies are the worst with poor control . Not microing terran units has a higher opportunity cost, though.
I'm pulling for classic as well, for the same reason.
I mean true, although I just tend to file that in ‘casting spells well’ rather than micro, although it is obviously micro.
If I fuck up my forcefields, or mess my Templar positioning or storm badly, I can just die outright, or I can be left in a position where I can’t gain nearly as much through ‘great gate unit micro as Terran can, with bio especially.
Relative to my skill, micro is by far the thing I’m best at in SC2 although my macro is ok. People were legitimately surprised way, way back when I switched to Terran from Protoss and got back to my Protoss MMR in about two weeks. Kind of made sense to me as I switched because I felt I couldn’t use my best skill enough as P in those days.
Again relative to my own skill, my best period by far in PvP was when it was 4 gate vs 4 gate. Protoss units are actually really microable in small engagements they just don’t scale all that well. I played a lot of Warcraft 3, I find micro the most enjoyable aspect of RTS, so I’m obviously going to prosper in 4 gate wars.
I’m absolutely terrible with Zerg though, which IMO is fine, and part of why I like SC2 a lot.
I was good with Protoss grinding similar builds and playing defensive reactive macro, I was good with Terran opening literally 1 rax gasless FE in all 3 matchups and trying to our mechanic my opponent. I was terrible at playing Zerg because I was and still am bad at making good reactive decisions with that race.
Which is super cool IMO, I like that it leaves that room, and this applies to matchups too.
I’ve generally always been one of the wonkiest players I know, but I like that and if one can understand why, it’s not really a balance thing.
Back in the day my friends gradually outstripped me in MMR as I stopped playing so much. My Terran friends would still practice with me because my PvT was so good relative to my other matchups, I think at one point my PvT was 70% plus vs my PvZ was around the 30s
Which I think is a cool thing about Starcraft 2. Obviously at the pro level you don’t want such huge gaps, but having the races play so differently and the matchups play differently is something I like about the game for sure.
On April 12 2019 19:32 HolydaKing wrote: Classic 4-0 Maru let's go!
On one hand, that would be really funny. On the other hand, that would mean the TvP matchup needs to be looked at immediately
the fact that people actually think this way is so absurd to me. we literally worship individual players to the point where they aren't "allowed" to have off days or play badly. it's so intellectually bankrupt to be planning balance whines ahead of time just in case someone loses, without having seen any games. we used to do this with Innovation too
Nobody bats an eye at those facts tho
well it would be extremely unwise to play race apologist's game.no one should ever mention race winning history or individual performance when talking about the current balance tho force them to play your own game and you will seldomly lose an argument
race winning history is not irrelevant. it is a testament to the general design of the races, as well as a benchmark for the effectiveness of subsequent balance changes.
negative.the stastics are too old for 2019 and might not related to one's claiming OP subject. for example ,If i say TvP is protoss favored because of chargelots then you guys shouldn't throw one billions terran's wins into my face and say TvP is fucking fine.Nope real men don't do that.reading stastics is uncle blizzard's job not us who give feedback and argue
@wombat or you know....may be when people whine about one race too stronk based on watching pro games.it already has nothing to do with thier daily shits at the beginning ...[/QUOTE]
On April 12 2019 21:29 Rodya wrote: The idea the Maru relies on having time to prepare is really dumb, but it is of course a lie that people trying to promote foreigners and WCS events will continue to perpetuate (so no point in engaging with it). Stop being so obsessed with stupid statistics and narratives and actually watch Maru play... his godlikeness is not because of his preparation, its his ridiculous intuition and mechanics.
In a recent interview, Maru said that the reason he didn't go far in IEM was because of his mental being bad - nothing to do with preparation. But no, armchair players would rather concoct their own crazy theories than listen to what Maru says.
Classic 4 - 3 Maru, and this could be even more one sided against Maru - Classic's preperation should be just too good.
Well it's more then he also underperformed at WESG... and Blizzcon... and Super Tournament... and GSLvsTW.. and the other Super Tournament. Whatever the reason clearly there something there, he's 4/4 getting to the final in GSL and 1/8 in weekender since the start of last year, so there must be something.
Still I think he beat Classic, his tvp seems unbeatable right now.
Edit: it's kinda like a reverse Taeja now that I think of it
I honestly think that people underrate him in the weekenders. Last year he made the semis of Katowice only to lose in a reverse sweep by the eventual champion and teammate in Rogue. Then he won WESG. And he made the semi's of GSL vs. the World, not bad results by any margin. The disappointments are ST and Blizzcon, but ST isn't all that important so the only real disappointment is Blizzcon and IEM this year. It really isn't as bad as you might think.
and he did make the finals of IEM Taipei 2015 and took Life to game 7 https://youtu.be/Kbwk2vwXNyU (well now I'm sad, this should've been a long running rivalry by now)
Yeah it really should have. Life was my favorite Zerg when he was around, and he could have had great rivalries with some of the players of today like Maru, sOs, INno, Serral, Neeb, etc. and SCII would have been better for it. I watched that finals though and it was a fun watch, one of my favorites.
On April 14 2019 08:59 seemsgood wrote: @wombat or you know....may be when people whine about one race too stronk based on watching pro games.it already has nothing to do with thier daily shits at the beginning ...
Haha, also that.
There are periods where it’s not always wrong either, Terrans have been balance whining more consistently then the other two races over SC2’s life. Micro is hard or something, which is the only thing to take into consideration in ascertaining a good player, screw good planning or strategic reads.
The old Slayers blue flame hellion drop build was, absolutely silly. Or the 1/1/1 allin for a period. Protoss players had a hard time when the early Roach max was refined. Protoss players had a horrible time when BL/Infestor was so strong.
On April 12 2019 19:32 HolydaKing wrote: Classic 4-0 Maru let's go!
On one hand, that would be really funny. On the other hand, that would mean the TvP matchup needs to be looked at immediately
the fact that people actually think this way is so absurd to me. we literally worship individual players to the point where they aren't "allowed" to have off days or play badly. it's so intellectually bankrupt to be planning balance whines ahead of time just in case someone loses, without having seen any games. we used to do this with Innovation too
Nobody bats an eye at those facts tho
well it would be extremely unwise to play race apologist's game.no one should ever mention race winning history or individual performance when talking about the current balance tho force them to play your own game and you will seldomly lose an argument
race winning history is not irrelevant. it is a testament to the general design of the races, as well as a benchmark for the effectiveness of subsequent balance changes.
On April 14 2019 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote:
On April 14 2019 05:30 BerserkSword wrote:
On April 14 2019 04:05 brickrd wrote:
On April 12 2019 19:57 Harris1st wrote:
On April 12 2019 19:32 HolydaKing wrote: Classic 4-0 Maru let's go!
On one hand, that would be really funny. On the other hand, that would mean the TvP matchup needs to be looked at immediately
the fact that people actually think this way is so absurd to me. we literally worship individual players to the point where they aren't "allowed" to have off days or play badly. it's so intellectually bankrupt to be planning balance whines ahead of time just in case someone loses, without having seen any games. we used to do this with Innovation too
It's funny how it's never the opposite.
Since LotV was released, Protoss only won 2 Code S, and Zerg only won a SINGLE Code S (compared to Terran 6). Nobody bats an eye at those facts tho
Well the goalposts just seem to shift all the time. When Terran have strong periods they’re just better players, when they have relative weak periods it’s ‘you have to be as good as Maru to win anything.’
Well no shit, you have to be amongst the best players of your race to win tournaments in the current era. Which is true across the races. Innovation just won WESG, Terrans don’t seem to be doing too badly in the Code S qualifications, although they had a bad super tournament.
I like Starcraft 2’s racial asymmetry a lot, more so than Brood War and certainly way more than Warcraft 3’s, although there are elements of those games I like a lot more than SC2
The races play differently in fundamentally ways, and they reward different skillsets so there’s room for different types of player to prosper.
Crudely (really crudely) speaking Protoss rely on tricks and super tight builds and timings, and mixing it up, although easiest mechanically. Zerg rely on reading tricks and making smart defensive decisions and juggling their larva mechanic, are crazy APM dependent if you are aiming to hit every inject and have a ton of ceiling there. Terran you do have to have some aggression and technical builds to slow down the other races, but you’re less reliant on outright tricks than Protoss, but you can get way more out of your units with micro, conversely your units are way worse with bad micro.
Terrans have balance whined since Wings (those that do) along a vague rationale of ‘we have to micro so hard’ or more nuanced variants, and ignore the other side of the coin consistently.
Regardless of who wins, and I hope it’s Classic (purely for him to get it before military and for being a consistently great player), there will 100% be at least one game where Classic is in some situation where Maru displays some stellar micro and crushes Classic and people wax lyrical about it, ignoring the fact that Classic literally can’t do that micro with his units.
Yup, exactly. I've had people on this site literally tell me that the top Terran players are just more skilled lmfao
the only part is disagree with is that terran units are way worse with bad micro. Protoss armies are the worst with poor control . Not microing terran units has a higher opportunity cost, though.
I'm pulling for classic as well, for the same reason.
I mean true, although I just tend to file that in ‘casting spells well’ rather than micro, although it is obviously micro.
If I fuck up my forcefields, or mess my Templar positioning or storm badly, I can just die outright, or I can be left in a position where I can’t gain nearly as much through ‘great gate unit micro as Terran can, with bio especially.
Relative to my skill, micro is by far the thing I’m best at in SC2 although my macro is ok. People were legitimately surprised way, way back when I switched to Terran from Protoss and got back to my Protoss MMR in about two weeks. Kind of made sense to me as I switched because I felt I couldn’t use my best skill enough as P in those days.
Again relative to my own skill, my best period by far in PvP was when it was 4 gate vs 4 gate. Protoss units are actually really microable in small engagements they just don’t scale all that well. I played a lot of Warcraft 3, I find micro the most enjoyable aspect of RTS, so I’m obviously going to prosper in 4 gate wars.
I’m absolutely terrible with Zerg though, which IMO is fine, and part of why I like SC2 a lot.
I was good with Protoss grinding similar builds and playing defensive reactive macro, I was good with Terran opening literally 1 rax gasless FE in all 3 matchups and trying to our mechanic my opponent. I was terrible at playing Zerg because I was and still am bad at making good reactive decisions with that race.
Which is super cool IMO, I like that it leaves that room, and this applies to matchups too.
I’ve generally always been one of the wonkiest players I know, but I like that and if one can understand why, it’s not really a balance thing.
Back in the day my friends gradually outstripped me in MMR as I stopped playing so much. My Terran friends would still practice with me because my PvT was so good relative to my other matchups, I think at one point my PvT was 70% plus vs my PvZ was around the 30s
Which I think is a cool thing about Starcraft 2. Obviously at the pro level you don’t want such huge gaps, but having the races play so differently and the matchups play differently is something I like about the game for sure.
I mean even aside from spell casting, there is so much you have to micro as Protoss. splitting zealots when engaging bio + mine, blink, warp prism micro, etc. It's funny because I actually used to main protoss, then I switched to terran because the protoss army is too difficult to control. But yea most non-protoss players dont seem to understand how unforgiving protoss micro can be. If your HTs are in the wrong place, or you use a dumb storm, or you slip on some force fields, bad disruptor shot, etc, your ridiculously expensive army could just get steamrolled.
Funny thing i used to play a lot of wc3 and am garbage with zerg as well
On April 12 2019 19:32 HolydaKing wrote: Classic 4-0 Maru let's go!
On one hand, that would be really funny. On the other hand, that would mean the TvP matchup needs to be looked at immediately
the fact that people actually think this way is so absurd to me. we literally worship individual players to the point where they aren't "allowed" to have off days or play badly. it's so intellectually bankrupt to be planning balance whines ahead of time just in case someone loses, without having seen any games. we used to do this with Innovation too
Nobody bats an eye at those facts tho
well it would be extremely unwise to play race apologist's game.no one should ever mention race winning history or individual performance when talking about the current balance tho force them to play your own game and you will seldomly lose an argument
race winning history is not irrelevant. it is a testament to the general design of the races, as well as a benchmark for the effectiveness of subsequent balance changes.
On April 14 2019 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote:
On April 14 2019 05:30 BerserkSword wrote:
On April 14 2019 04:05 brickrd wrote:
On April 12 2019 19:57 Harris1st wrote:
On April 12 2019 19:32 HolydaKing wrote: Classic 4-0 Maru let's go!
On one hand, that would be really funny. On the other hand, that would mean the TvP matchup needs to be looked at immediately
the fact that people actually think this way is so absurd to me. we literally worship individual players to the point where they aren't "allowed" to have off days or play badly. it's so intellectually bankrupt to be planning balance whines ahead of time just in case someone loses, without having seen any games. we used to do this with Innovation too
It's funny how it's never the opposite.
Since LotV was released, Protoss only won 2 Code S, and Zerg only won a SINGLE Code S (compared to Terran 6). Nobody bats an eye at those facts tho
Well the goalposts just seem to shift all the time. When Terran have strong periods they’re just better players, when they have relative weak periods it’s ‘you have to be as good as Maru to win anything.’
Well no shit, you have to be amongst the best players of your race to win tournaments in the current era. Which is true across the races. Innovation just won WESG, Terrans don’t seem to be doing too badly in the Code S qualifications, although they had a bad super tournament.
I like Starcraft 2’s racial asymmetry a lot, more so than Brood War and certainly way more than Warcraft 3’s, although there are elements of those games I like a lot more than SC2
The races play differently in fundamentally ways, and they reward different skillsets so there’s room for different types of player to prosper.
Crudely (really crudely) speaking Protoss rely on tricks and super tight builds and timings, and mixing it up, although easiest mechanically. Zerg rely on reading tricks and making smart defensive decisions and juggling their larva mechanic, are crazy APM dependent if you are aiming to hit every inject and have a ton of ceiling there. Terran you do have to have some aggression and technical builds to slow down the other races, but you’re less reliant on outright tricks than Protoss, but you can get way more out of your units with micro, conversely your units are way worse with bad micro.
Terrans have balance whined since Wings (those that do) along a vague rationale of ‘we have to micro so hard’ or more nuanced variants, and ignore the other side of the coin consistently.
Regardless of who wins, and I hope it’s Classic (purely for him to get it before military and for being a consistently great player), there will 100% be at least one game where Classic is in some situation where Maru displays some stellar micro and crushes Classic and people wax lyrical about it, ignoring the fact that Classic literally can’t do that micro with his units.
Yup, exactly. I've had people on this site literally tell me that the top Terran players are just more skilled lmfao
the only part is disagree with is that terran units are way worse with bad micro. Protoss armies are the worst with poor control . Not microing terran units has a higher opportunity cost, though.
I'm pulling for classic as well, for the same reason.
I mean true, although I just tend to file that in ‘casting spells well’ rather than micro, although it is obviously micro.
If I fuck up my forcefields, or mess my Templar positioning or storm badly, I can just die outright, or I can be left in a position where I can’t gain nearly as much through ‘great gate unit micro as Terran can, with bio especially.
Relative to my skill, micro is by far the thing I’m best at in SC2 although my macro is ok. People were legitimately surprised way, way back when I switched to Terran from Protoss and got back to my Protoss MMR in about two weeks. Kind of made sense to me as I switched because I felt I couldn’t use my best skill enough as P in those days.
Again relative to my own skill, my best period by far in PvP was when it was 4 gate vs 4 gate. Protoss units are actually really microable in small engagements they just don’t scale all that well. I played a lot of Warcraft 3, I find micro the most enjoyable aspect of RTS, so I’m obviously going to prosper in 4 gate wars.
I’m absolutely terrible with Zerg though, which IMO is fine, and part of why I like SC2 a lot.
I was good with Protoss grinding similar builds and playing defensive reactive macro, I was good with Terran opening literally 1 rax gasless FE in all 3 matchups and trying to our mechanic my opponent. I was terrible at playing Zerg because I was and still am bad at making good reactive decisions with that race.
Which is super cool IMO, I like that it leaves that room, and this applies to matchups too.
I’ve generally always been one of the wonkiest players I know, but I like that and if one can understand why, it’s not really a balance thing.
Back in the day my friends gradually outstripped me in MMR as I stopped playing so much. My Terran friends would still practice with me because my PvT was so good relative to my other matchups, I think at one point my PvT was 70% plus vs my PvZ was around the 30s
Which I think is a cool thing about Starcraft 2. Obviously at the pro level you don’t want such huge gaps, but having the races play so differently and the matchups play differently is something I like about the game for sure.
I mean even aside from spell casting, there is so much you have to micro as Protoss. splitting zealots when engaging bio + mine, blink, warp prism micro, etc. It's funny because I actually used to main protoss, then I switched to terran because the protoss army is too difficult to control. But yea most non-protoss players dont seem to understand how unforgiving protoss micro can be. If your HTs are in the wrong place, or you use a dumb storm, or you slip on some force fields, bad disruptor shot, etc, your ridiculously expensive army could just get steamrolled.
Funny thing i used to play a lot of wc3 and am garbage with zerg as well
Yeah Protoss is super unforgiving, Terran is also unforgiving but you can get more.
Protoss is like you can fuck up forcefields and micro like a god and still die. Terran you can fuck up but micro like a god and maybe you can recover. Warcraft 3 is less volatile, longer engagements, so if you have better micro by a decent degree you can make a mistake and still always win if you microva long engagement consistently better.
Which is cool, on the other hand in WC3 you can approach an engagement way better initially strategically, initially execute better and still ultimately die because your opponent micros little things better over minutes of game time.
On April 13 2019 05:30 TheDougler wrote: Out of curiosity, what's the most of any premier tournaments (MSLs and OSLs etc) that a single player won in a row in Brood War? I think Flash won 3 OSLs in a row (and then later, 3 ASLs in a row). Has 4 of any one tournament in a row ever been done before?
Flash never won two OSL's in a row, only Jaedong and BoxeR did that. Flash did make 3 finals in a row (like BoxeR), won against Movie, lost to Effort, then beat Jaedong. NaDa & iloveoov won 3 MSL's in a row, Savior, Bisu & Flash won two in a row. Hydra got one between Flash's second and third win. Only Flash won multiple ASL's in a row (3).
No player in the history of BW ever won 4 of any premier tournament, which is still true since Effort beat Flash in his fourth final.
Jaedong (OSL), Savior (MSL), Flash (ASL) all reached one more final after winning 3. Nada even reached 3 more MSL finals after winning 3, but they all lost. BoxeR reached 6 OSL finals (most of any player) too, but only won 2. Savior managed to reach 5 MSL finals in a row (and won 3), which is longer than the SC2 record currently held by soO & Maru.
Didn't Jangbi win 2 in a row? They were in different years though.
You're quite right! When going through the history I kinda just discarded the SC2 era in my mind because of how messy it was, but Jangbi definitely deserves to be on that list too. Jangbi & Fantasy each defeated Flash in play-offs to have the finals between them twice, after all, so no lucky breaks there.
Feel like Classic will make it an epic series. HIs preparation has been stellar in the last 2 series. I can tell from his games and from his reaction after beating Dark that he wants to win so badly. I hope he does win this one 4-3.
i've been wrong in 6 of my last 7 liquibets in sc2. if i keep flipping coins at this rate i will be able to not predict the results of every sc2 match making me the most reliable predictor of sc2 results.
Is classic kidding? and it still worked thanks to the big lead. But that was a fucking garbage engage, half the army that was supposed to come from the other side did nothing.
On April 14 2019 17:45 sneakyfox wrote: What the hell is Classic doing?!
e: okay nevermind :D
The first engagement looked bad, but the Raven burned it's energy, so when he reengaged the templar could storm freely. (previously their Warpprism got disabled by the Raven)
On April 14 2019 17:45 HolydaKing wrote: Is classic kidding? and it still worked thanks to the big lead. But that was a fucking garbage engage, half the army that was supposed to come from the other side did nothing.
Yeah, he's going to need to be massively ahead in every game to win it if he engages like that all the time
On April 14 2019 17:45 HolydaKing wrote: Is classic kidding? and it still worked thanks to the big lead. But that was a fucking garbage engage, half the army that was supposed to come from the other side did nothing.
On April 14 2019 17:45 IshinShishi wrote: lil bit premature gg, classic was dropping supply rapidly
Uhm, what? MAru just dropped 25 SCVs... if he stays the next attack could have been just a-move and it would have won the game.
What next attack? It's not like Maru was actually cleaning up the current attack.
I think he cleans that one, Classic stayed much longer in worse position in the previous game, he was already dead before Maru moved out and still didnt leave, so there's that.
On April 14 2019 17:45 IshinShishi wrote: lil bit premature gg, classic was dropping supply rapidly
Uhm, what? MAru just dropped 25 SCVs... if he stays the next attack could have been just a-move and it would have won the game.
What next attack? It's not like Maru was actually cleaning up the current attack.
I think he cleans that one, Classic stayed much longer in worse position in the previous game, he was already dead before Maru moved out and still didnt leave, so there's that.
Shouldve just floated his buildings to the corner and hoped Classic literally has a stroke
On April 14 2019 17:45 IshinShishi wrote: lil bit premature gg, classic was dropping supply rapidly
Uhm, what? MAru just dropped 25 SCVs... if he stays the next attack could have been just a-move and it would have won the game.
What next attack? It's not like Maru was actually cleaning up the current attack.
I think he cleans that one, Classic stayed much longer in worse position in the previous game, he was already dead before Maru moved out and still didnt leave, so there's that.
Even if he did, the next attack will be 200 vs 140, 3/3 vs 1/1 or 2/2 and Classic so much ahead in tech it wouldn't be even funny. C'mon...
On April 14 2019 17:45 IshinShishi wrote: lil bit premature gg, classic was dropping supply rapidly
Uhm, what? MAru just dropped 25 SCVs... if he stays the next attack could have been just a-move and it would have won the game.
What next attack? It's not like Maru was actually cleaning up the current attack.
I think he cleans that one, Classic stayed much longer in worse position in the previous game, he was already dead before Maru moved out and still didnt leave, so there's that.
Sorry but 2 tanks, 2 marauders, 4 marines and a liberator don't clean up 7 stalkers, an immortal, an archon and a warp prism all too well.
On April 14 2019 17:45 IshinShishi wrote: lil bit premature gg, classic was dropping supply rapidly
Uhm, what? MAru just dropped 25 SCVs... if he stays the next attack could have been just a-move and it would have won the game.
What next attack? It's not like Maru was actually cleaning up the current attack.
I think he cleans that one, Classic stayed much longer in worse position in the previous game, he was already dead before Maru moved out and still didnt leave, so there's that.
he doesn't clean the attack with the next warp-ins
If this is gonna be how Classic does things, Maru should have a pretty big advantage considering he literally lives with sOs. He probably wakes up with pylons hidden under his pillow.
On April 14 2019 17:53 ScrappyRabbit wrote: If this is gonna be how Classic does things, Maru should have a pretty big advantage considering he literally lives with sOs. He probably wakes up with pylons hidden under his pillow.
Classic is gonna need to show the ability to go toe-to-toe in an even mid game and show that he can defend a sharp two-base all in to win this. Not expecting it.
On April 14 2019 17:53 ScrappyRabbit wrote: If this is gonna be how Classic does things, Maru should have a pretty big advantage considering he literally lives with sOs. He probably wakes up with pylons hidden under his pillow.
On April 14 2019 17:53 ScrappyRabbit wrote: If this is gonna be how Classic does things, Maru should have a pretty big advantage considering he literally lives with sOs. He probably wakes up with pylons hidden under his pillow.
I'd like to imagine sOs trolling Maru this way from time to time, yes
On April 14 2019 17:56 Zambrah wrote: I can finally watch, GO CLASSIC! Tied up feels like maybe the series will be okay? Good even maybe?
Well i just wanna watch standard mid-long game tvp honestly. Not this sharp timing attacks/punishing attacks
what's a standard mid-long game tvp? You mean a prolonged 2-base all-in?
I haven't seen sc2 games in a long time. Does that mean that the old standard tvp is none-existent ?
It's not too popular with Terrans.
Why is that ?
That's why.
You know before this year or late last-year i thought tanks was never a thing in tvp(in WoL and HOTS they were only used for all-ins). Did the immortal rework made them usable ?
On April 14 2019 17:56 Zambrah wrote: I can finally watch, GO CLASSIC! Tied up feels like maybe the series will be okay? Good even maybe?
Well i just wanna watch standard mid-long game tvp honestly. Not this sharp timing attacks/punishing attacks
what's a standard mid-long game tvp? You mean a prolonged 2-base all-in?
I haven't seen sc2 games in a long time. Does that mean that the old standard tvp is none-existent ?
It's not too popular with Terrans.
Why is that ?
That's why.
You know before this year or late last-year i thought tanks was never a thing in tvp(in WoL and HOTS they were only used for all-ins). Did the immortal rework made them usable ?
No, tanks were buffed a lot and they shred units now.
On April 14 2019 17:56 Zambrah wrote: I can finally watch, GO CLASSIC! Tied up feels like maybe the series will be okay? Good even maybe?
Well i just wanna watch standard mid-long game tvp honestly. Not this sharp timing attacks/punishing attacks
what's a standard mid-long game tvp? You mean a prolonged 2-base all-in?
I haven't seen sc2 games in a long time. Does that mean that the old standard tvp is none-existent ?
It's not too popular with Terrans.
Why is that ?
That's why.
You know before this year or late last-year i thought tanks was never a thing in tvp(in WoL and HOTS they were only used for all-ins). Did the immortal rework made them usable ?
That, and the damage buff.
Also the fact that the Raven is a good answer to early Robo units also helps a lot.
Ouch, turned on the stream midway through game 3. He saw the army had left with his phoenix but still kept his units at the 3rd. could have at least forced siege and bought time for lance. Would have liked to see that engagement as an actual fight and not a walkover.
On April 14 2019 17:56 Zambrah wrote: I can finally watch, GO CLASSIC! Tied up feels like maybe the series will be okay? Good even maybe?
Well i just wanna watch standard mid-long game tvp honestly. Not this sharp timing attacks/punishing attacks
what's a standard mid-long game tvp? You mean a prolonged 2-base all-in?
I haven't seen sc2 games in a long time. Does that mean that the old standard tvp is none-existent ?
It's not too popular with Terrans.
Why is that ?
That's why.
You know before this year or late last-year i thought tanks was never a thing in tvp(in WoL and HOTS they were only used for all-ins). Did the immortal rework made them usable ?
they are only good in a small timing window. Once protoss gets too many chargelots they become useless
On April 14 2019 17:56 Zambrah wrote: I can finally watch, GO CLASSIC! Tied up feels like maybe the series will be okay? Good even maybe?
Well i just wanna watch standard mid-long game tvp honestly. Not this sharp timing attacks/punishing attacks
what's a standard mid-long game tvp? You mean a prolonged 2-base all-in?
I haven't seen sc2 games in a long time. Does that mean that the old standard tvp is none-existent ?
It's not too popular with Terrans.
Why is that ?
That's why.
You know before this year or late last-year i thought tanks was never a thing in tvp(in WoL and HOTS they were only used for all-ins). Did the immortal rework made them usable ?
They are quite strong now, particularly defensively or during Terran 2-base attacks. They siege up the nat or third, it's pretty hard for toss if it's done right. This is a typical map for that sort of tank style as well, due to the ledge in the nat that you can siege.
On April 14 2019 17:56 Zambrah wrote: I can finally watch, GO CLASSIC! Tied up feels like maybe the series will be okay? Good even maybe?
Well i just wanna watch standard mid-long game tvp honestly. Not this sharp timing attacks/punishing attacks
what's a standard mid-long game tvp? You mean a prolonged 2-base all-in?
I haven't seen sc2 games in a long time. Does that mean that the old standard tvp is none-existent ?
It's not too popular with Terrans.
Why is that ?
That's why.
You know before this year or late last-year i thought tanks was never a thing in tvp(in WoL and HOTS they were only used for all-ins). Did the immortal rework made them usable ?
Tank pushes have been strong since they got their damage buffed in late 2016. And now people commit real hard with them cause it's preferable to playing a macro game.
On April 14 2019 17:56 Zambrah wrote: I can finally watch, GO CLASSIC! Tied up feels like maybe the series will be okay? Good even maybe?
Well i just wanna watch standard mid-long game tvp honestly. Not this sharp timing attacks/punishing attacks
what's a standard mid-long game tvp? You mean a prolonged 2-base all-in?
I haven't seen sc2 games in a long time. Does that mean that the old standard tvp is none-existent ?
It's not too popular with Terrans.
Why is that ?
That's why.
You know before this year or late last-year i thought tanks was never a thing in tvp(in WoL and HOTS they were only used for all-ins). Did the immortal rework made them usable ?
No, tanks were buffed a lot and they shred units now.
Nice. They felt like absolutely worthless and expensive units to both none-mirror matchups before now (well since widowmines appeared)
On April 14 2019 17:56 Zambrah wrote: I can finally watch, GO CLASSIC! Tied up feels like maybe the series will be okay? Good even maybe?
Well i just wanna watch standard mid-long game tvp honestly. Not this sharp timing attacks/punishing attacks
what's a standard mid-long game tvp? You mean a prolonged 2-base all-in?
I haven't seen sc2 games in a long time. Does that mean that the old standard tvp is none-existent ?
It's not too popular with Terrans.
Why is that ?
That's why.
You know before this year or late last-year i thought tanks was never a thing in tvp(in WoL and HOTS they were only used for all-ins). Did the immortal rework made them usable ?
That, and the damage buff.
Also the fact that the Raven is a good answer to early Robo units also helps a lot.
I suppose colossus can work if you manage to bait the ravens, which means that classic has to meet Maru in the middle before he arrives at his base, which he tried to do, but on a different road
On April 14 2019 18:05 Elentos wrote: And this game is why Artosis is a buffoon for suggesting people go colossus against Maru.
Shouldn't do it against anyone. Interference matrix is such a ridiculous counter to any sort of colossus build.
Tasteless is actually calling it correctly.
That game was over when Maru got the position he wanted. Interference Matrix only matters if you have tanks already in a good position, if you have to reposition to keep advancing, it wears off and the Raven runs out of energy.
Also the fact that Maru picked off a Collsosus for free was also huge.
On April 14 2019 18:05 Elentos wrote: And this game is why Artosis is a buffoon for suggesting people go colossus against Maru.
Shouldn't do it against anyone. Interference matrix is such a ridiculous counter to any sort of colossus build.
Tasteless is actually calling it correctly.
That game was over when Maru got the position he wanted. Interference Matrix only matters if you have tanks already in a good position, if you have to reposition to keep advancing, it wears off and the Raven runs out of energy.
Also the fact that Maru picked off a Collsosus for free was also huge.
Nah. With the colossi disabled and Classic's low count of gateway units Maru could have jumped on top to snipe them even without the tanks. Having the interference is just great value as a baseline.
I think the only response in that situation was to pull scvs and kill the pylons. the cyclones were a good idea though. But once the 3rd/4th tempest got there it's pretty much gg, would be protoss' game to lose at that point.
On April 14 2019 18:15 Agh wrote: I think the only response in that situation was to pull scvs and kill the pylons. the cyclones were a good idea though.
the cyclones actually did nothing and classic could just one-shot them whenever they locked on. You have to go reactor viking immidiately vs this.
cyclones shit on tempests, Maru just didnt maneuver them well enough and either didnt have the scans or didnt use them, I only saw one scan the entire game
On April 14 2019 18:17 IshinShishi wrote: cyclones shit on tempests, Maru just didnt maneuver them well enough and either didnt have the scans or didnt use them, I only saw one scan the entire game
Yeah, the base is so huge so much maneuver area, I wonder why Maru didn't better job...
On April 14 2019 18:17 IshinShishi wrote: cyclones shit on tempests, Maru just didnt maneuver them well enough and either didnt have the scans or didnt use them, I only saw one scan the entire game
Eagerly awaiting the cyclone defence tutorial on youtube.
On April 14 2019 18:17 IshinShishi wrote: cyclones shit on tempests, Maru just didnt maneuver them well enough and either didnt have the scans or didnt use them, I only saw one scan the entire game
Yeah, the base is so huge so much maneuver area, I wonder why Maru didn't better job...
for one he didnt lower the depot between the bunkers that kept getting in the way, I'm sure he would play much better if he got a second chance
On April 14 2019 18:15 Agh wrote: I think the only response in that situation was to pull scvs and kill the pylons. the cyclones were a good idea though.
the cyclones actually did nothing and classic could just one-shot them whenever they locked on. You have to go reactor viking immidiately vs this.
basically you need bunch of cyclones for them to work in this situation, in small numbers protoss can easily focus fire them.
On April 14 2019 18:17 IshinShishi wrote: cyclones shit on tempests, Maru just didnt maneuver them well enough and either didnt have the scans or didnt use them, I only saw one scan the entire game
Just look at the terrain around that map's natural, Maru had zero way to maneuver cyclones around and getting a clean lock on was just impossible due to the ridges.
On April 14 2019 18:15 Agh wrote: I think the only response in that situation was to pull scvs and kill the pylons. the cyclones were a good idea though.
the cyclones actually did nothing and classic could just one-shot them whenever they locked on. You have to go reactor viking immidiately vs this.
basically you need bunch of cyclones for them to work in this situation, in small numbers protoss can easily focus fire them.
And building up a bunch is far too slow which is why you make vikings which are also cheaper and don't need an upgrade first.
On April 14 2019 18:20 Heartland wrote: All I want is one good, late game game.
Nah, you won't see that IMO. If there will be one it is because one side defended a push/cheese and has an advantage. Which means the late game will be bad anyway
I don't know if that situation is winable if you let the batteries go up that close. Maybe reactored vikings while very slowly adding thors has a chance but doubt it. Think there was a small window to just siege the batteries / pylon while reparing tanks on the high ground before tempest number reached critical mass.
On April 14 2019 18:20 Heartland wrote: All I want is one good, late game game.
Nah, you won't see that IMO. If there will be one it is because one side defended a push/cheese and has an advantage. Which means the late game will be bad anyway
Unfortunately this is just the state of tvp right now.
On April 14 2019 18:22 Doko wrote: I don't know if that situation is winable if you let the batteries go up that close. Maybe reactored vikings while very slowly adding thors has a chance but doubt it. Think there was a small window to just siege the batteries / pylon while reparing tanks on the high ground before tempest number reached critical mass.
You need to get up a viking count that's high enough to do so much damage to a tempest in every volley that the shield batteries don't matter.
On April 14 2019 18:17 IshinShishi wrote: cyclones shit on tempests, Maru just didnt maneuver them well enough and either didnt have the scans or didnt use them, I only saw one scan the entire game
Just look at the terrain around that map's natural, Maru had zero way to maneuver cyclones around and getting a clean lock on was just impossible due to the ridges.
look at the the 1h27 min mark when classic gets the raven, Maru pulls back the two cyclones for no reason and lets one tempest that was gonna die on the next shot escape, pretty big mistake.
On April 14 2019 18:20 Heartland wrote: All I want is one good, late game game.
Nah, you won't see that IMO. If there will be one it is because one side defended a push/cheese and has an advantage. Which means the late game will be bad anyway
Unfortunately this is just the state of tvp right now.
There's still some chances for it left. Year Zero and King's Cove are so huge neither player might want to do overdo it in the early game.
On April 14 2019 18:20 Heartland wrote: All I want is one good, late game game.
Nah, you won't see that IMO. If there will be one it is because one side defended a push/cheese and has an advantage. Which means the late game will be bad anyway
Unfortunately this is just the state of tvp right now.
There's still some chances for it left. Year Zero and King's Cove are so huge neither player might want to do overdo it in the early game.
You mean so big maps you can hide any proxy quite safely?
On April 14 2019 18:22 Doko wrote: I don't know if that situation is winable if you let the batteries go up that close. Maybe reactored vikings while very slowly adding thors has a chance but doubt it. Think there was a small window to just siege the batteries / pylon while reparing tanks on the high ground before tempest number reached critical mass.
You need to get up a viking count that's high enough to do so much damage to a tempest in every volley that the shield batteries don't matter.
so would you horde the vikings in the back? i don't think you have enough time. i think you have to cancel air production and go 100% bio and try to bust it with mariners.
On April 14 2019 18:20 Heartland wrote: All I want is one good, late game game.
Nah, you won't see that IMO. If there will be one it is because one side defended a push/cheese and has an advantage. Which means the late game will be bad anyway
Unfortunately this is just the state of tvp right now.
There's still some chances for it left. Year Zero and King's Cove are so huge neither player might want to do overdo it in the early game.
Blizzard... fix this game or it will actually die. I can't believe this bs every single season. This is why we have 17k viewers for the biggest final of the year.
On April 14 2019 18:22 Doko wrote: I don't know if that situation is winable if you let the batteries go up that close. Maybe reactored vikings while very slowly adding thors has a chance but doubt it. Think there was a small window to just siege the batteries / pylon while reparing tanks on the high ground before tempest number reached critical mass.
You need to get up a viking count that's high enough to do so much damage to a tempest in every volley that the shield batteries don't matter.
so would you horde the vikings in the back? i don't think you have enough time. i think you have to cancel air production and go 100% bio and try to bust it with mariners.
You can't outdamage shield batteries with unstimmed marines. Let alone the gateway units and the fact that the tempests can kite you.
On April 14 2019 18:22 Doko wrote: I don't know if that situation is winable if you let the batteries go up that close. Maybe reactored vikings while very slowly adding thors has a chance but doubt it. Think there was a small window to just siege the batteries / pylon while reparing tanks on the high ground before tempest number reached critical mass.
You need to get up a viking count that's high enough to do so much damage to a tempest in every volley that the shield batteries don't matter.
so would you horde the vikings in the back? i don't think you have enough time. i think you have to cancel air production and go 100% bio and try to bust it with mariners.
On April 14 2019 18:20 Heartland wrote: All I want is one good, late game game.
Nah, you won't see that IMO. If there will be one it is because one side defended a push/cheese and has an advantage. Which means the late game will be bad anyway
Unfortunately this is just the state of tvp right now.
There's still some chances for it left. Year Zero and King's Cove are so huge neither player might want to do overdo it in the early game.
On April 14 2019 18:20 Heartland wrote: All I want is one good, late game game.
Nah, you won't see that IMO. If there will be one it is because one side defended a push/cheese and has an advantage. Which means the late game will be bad anyway
Unfortunately this is just the state of tvp right now.
There's still some chances for it left. Year Zero and King's Cove are so huge neither player might want to do overdo it in the early game.
On April 14 2019 18:22 Doko wrote: I don't know if that situation is winable if you let the batteries go up that close. Maybe reactored vikings while very slowly adding thors has a chance but doubt it. Think there was a small window to just siege the batteries / pylon while reparing tanks on the high ground before tempest number reached critical mass.
You need to get up a viking count that's high enough to do so much damage to a tempest in every volley that the shield batteries don't matter.
so would you horde the vikings in the back? i don't think you have enough time. i think you have to cancel air production and go 100% bio and try to bust it with mariners.
You can't outdamage shield batteries with unstimmed marines. Let alone the gateway units and the fact that the tempests can kite you.
On April 14 2019 18:22 Doko wrote: I don't know if that situation is winable if you let the batteries go up that close. Maybe reactored vikings while very slowly adding thors has a chance but doubt it. Think there was a small window to just siege the batteries / pylon while reparing tanks on the high ground before tempest number reached critical mass.
You need to get up a viking count that's high enough to do so much damage to a tempest in every volley that the shield batteries don't matter.
so would you horde the vikings in the back? i don't think you have enough time. i think you have to cancel air production and go 100% bio and try to bust it with mariners.
Can anyone fill me in on why Classics tempest cheese is a good build? I missed that game :'( what makes it better than other tempest + shield battery cheese?
On April 14 2019 18:31 OhThatDang wrote: Can anyone fill me in on why Classics tempest cheese is a good build? I missed that game :'( what makes it better than other tempest + shield battery cheese?
On April 14 2019 18:20 Heartland wrote: All I want is one good, late game game.
Nah, you won't see that IMO. If there will be one it is because one side defended a push/cheese and has an advantage. Which means the late game will be bad anyway
Unfortunately this is just the state of tvp right now.
There's still some chances for it left. Year Zero and King's Cove are so huge neither player might want to do overdo it in the early game.
You're wrong
I said might, I just gave them the option
OK, your wish wasn't granted then
I only have 2 wishes for this match. For the games to not be shit (which is the more important part) and for Classic to win.
On April 14 2019 18:20 Heartland wrote: All I want is one good, late game game.
Nah, you won't see that IMO. If there will be one it is because one side defended a push/cheese and has an advantage. Which means the late game will be bad anyway
Unfortunately this is just the state of tvp right now.
There's still some chances for it left. Year Zero and King's Cove are so huge neither player might want to do overdo it in the early game.
You're wrong
I said might, I just gave them the option
OK, your wish wasn't granted then
I only have 2 wishes for this match. For the games to not be shit (which is the more important part) and for Classic to win.
i believe one of your conditions has already been met ;D
On April 14 2019 18:22 Doko wrote: I don't know if that situation is winable if you let the batteries go up that close. Maybe reactored vikings while very slowly adding thors has a chance but doubt it. Think there was a small window to just siege the batteries / pylon while reparing tanks on the high ground before tempest number reached critical mass.
You need to get up a viking count that's high enough to do so much damage to a tempest in every volley that the shield batteries don't matter.
so would you horde the vikings in the back? i don't think you have enough time. i think you have to cancel air production and go 100% bio and try to bust it with mariners.
You can't outdamage shield batteries with unstimmed marines. Let alone the gateway units and the fact that the tempests can kite you.
why is stim out of the question?
You don't have the time for stim. Without vikings or at least upgraded cyclones you can't zone the tempests away which means you lose tons of stuff for free. it's unlikely you get through stim research time with a marine count that can kill 6 tempests and a bunch of gateway units next to 8 or so shield batteries.
maru at like 600 apm for extended periods of time jesus
On April 14 2019 18:44 deacon.frost wrote: This is just stupid >< tag - siege - tag - siege... I cannot see how tempest/liberator helped the game to be better.
game would be 1000% better with no widow mines, tempests, liberators, or brood lords spawning units agreed
On April 14 2019 18:50 Elentos wrote: Classic should take some lessons on how to play this situation. Obviously you're supposed to recall back and forth between nexus and mothership.
Yeah, and it's probably also a good idea to not auto-lose a base every time the terran decides to walk a group of bio across the map :/
On April 14 2019 18:50 Elentos wrote: Classic should take some lessons on how to play this situation. Obviously you're supposed to recall back and forth between nexus and mothership.
On April 14 2019 18:50 Elentos wrote: Classic should take some lessons on how to play this situation. Obviously you're supposed to recall back and forth between nexus and mothership.
On April 14 2019 18:50 Elentos wrote: Classic should take some lessons on how to play this situation. Obviously you're supposed to recall back and forth between nexus and mothership.
On April 14 2019 18:50 Elentos wrote: Classic should take some lessons on how to play this situation. Obviously you're supposed to recall back and forth between nexus and mothership.
Was that Neeb vs TY?
It was Creator vs TY from last Super Tournament. Creator messed it up eventually like 45 minutes into the game but he had the fundamentals right I think.
On April 14 2019 18:50 Elentos wrote: Classic should take some lessons on how to play this situation. Obviously you're supposed to recall back and forth between nexus and mothership.
Yeah, and it's probably also a good idea to not auto-lose a base every time the terran decides to walk a group of bio across the map :/
his dt harass also got shut down hard, he started losing units left and right for no compensation, at the end he had lost almost 20k more.
On April 14 2019 18:50 Elentos wrote: Classic should take some lessons on how to play this situation. Obviously you're supposed to recall back and forth between nexus and mothership.
Was that Neeb vs TY?
It was Creator vs TY from last Super Tournament. Creator messed it up eventually like 45 minutes into the game but he had the fundamentals right I think.
creator didn't mess it up
the fact of the matter is that battlecruisers can manhandle their "counters" (tempests)
On April 14 2019 18:50 Elentos wrote: Classic should take some lessons on how to play this situation. Obviously you're supposed to recall back and forth between nexus and mothership.
Was that Neeb vs TY?
It was Creator vs TY from last Super Tournament. Creator messed it up eventually like 45 minutes into the game but he had the fundamentals right I think.
creator didn't mess it up
the fact of the matter is that battlecruisers can manhandle their "counters" (tempests)
On April 14 2019 18:57 Vindicare605 wrote: Are people actually complaining about mass BC in this thread? Rofl. Get real guys, that shit almost never happens.
It's a genuine discussion about counterplay vs them. The fact is that there's almost none and BCs ARE the best unit in the game.
On April 14 2019 18:50 Elentos wrote: Classic should take some lessons on how to play this situation. Obviously you're supposed to recall back and forth between nexus and mothership.
Was that Neeb vs TY?
It was Creator vs TY from last Super Tournament. Creator messed it up eventually like 45 minutes into the game but he had the fundamentals right I think.
creator didn't mess it up
the fact of the matter is that battlecruisers can manhandle their "counters" (tempests)
Yes, Creator messed it up.
he didn't mess up.
in a long game like that u cant do anything against a fleet of bcs with the ir unparalleled value
I like the fact Maru actually uses higher tech units when he gets the occasion to, Ghost Vikings BCS is a comp I'd love to see more often.
It's just a pity that he wins too many Code S, too few weekenders and that he is mindlessly venerated on this forum; I would like the guy when he doesn't proxy 24/7.
Lategame TvP doesn't seem to be much of a problem, midgame probably is; the matchup is more boring than broken.
On April 14 2019 18:50 Elentos wrote: Classic should take some lessons on how to play this situation. Obviously you're supposed to recall back and forth between nexus and mothership.
Was that Neeb vs TY?
It was Creator vs TY from last Super Tournament. Creator messed it up eventually like 45 minutes into the game but he had the fundamentals right I think.
creator didn't mess it up
the fact of the matter is that battlecruisers can manhandle their "counters" (tempests)
Yes, Creator messed it up.
he didn't mess up.
in a long game like that u cant do anything against a fleet of bcs with the ir unparalleled value
He was actually winning the game and then split his tempests, ran out of recalls and lost half his army separated, IIRC
On April 14 2019 18:57 Vindicare605 wrote: Are people actually complaining about mass BC in this thread? Rofl. Get real guys, that shit almost never happens.
It's a genuine discussion about counterplay vs them. The fact is that there's almost none and BCs ARE the best unit in the game.
There are plenty of counterplay.
BC's still can't just jump in your face when you have mass ht's(nothing can still stand in the middle of mass storms) or if the bc's just fight corruptors/hydra they're gonna eventually all die with the remax.
There are vipers and well tempest kiting.
BC's are rare aside from that stupid bc rush against zerg. For their cost they should be good.
On April 14 2019 18:57 Vindicare605 wrote: Are people actually complaining about mass BC in this thread? Rofl. Get real guys, that shit almost never happens.
It's a genuine discussion about counterplay vs them. The fact is that there's almost none and BCs ARE the best unit in the game.
There are plenty of counterplay.
BC's still can't just jump in your face when you have mass ht's(nothing can still stand in the middle of mass storms) or if the bc's just fight corruptors/hydra they're gonna eventually all die with the remax.
There are vipers and well tempest kiting.
BC's are rare aside from that stupid bc rush against zerg. For their cost they should be good.
On April 14 2019 18:57 Vindicare605 wrote: Are people actually complaining about mass BC in this thread? Rofl. Get real guys, that shit almost never happens.
It's a genuine discussion about counterplay vs them. The fact is that there's almost none and BCs ARE the best unit in the game.
There's no "Almost" about it. As I said the only option for Protoss is Alt+F4 the minute you see one.
On April 14 2019 18:50 Elentos wrote: Classic should take some lessons on how to play this situation. Obviously you're supposed to recall back and forth between nexus and mothership.
Was that Neeb vs TY?
It was Creator vs TY from last Super Tournament. Creator messed it up eventually like 45 minutes into the game but he had the fundamentals right I think.
creator didn't mess it up
the fact of the matter is that battlecruisers can manhandle their "counters" (tempests)
Yes, Creator messed it up.
he didn't mess up.
in a long game like that u cant do anything against a fleet of bcs with the ir unparalleled value
Did you not see the series of events where classic loses hts, litttle clumps of units everywhere, all his drops getting crushed and then when Maru jumped the bc's on the face of the tempest where it was so out of position
On April 14 2019 18:57 Vindicare605 wrote: Are people actually complaining about mass BC in this thread? Rofl. Get real guys, that shit almost never happens.
It's a genuine discussion about counterplay vs them. The fact is that there's almost none and BCs ARE the best unit in the game.
There's no "Almost" about it. As I said the only option for Protoss is Alt+F4 the minute you see one.
You can definitely play around them a bit with double recall (mothership+nexus) and mass batteries to outtrade terran eventually. Just very very hard to do (cant make a single mistake or BCs jump you out of battery range/kill your bases)
On April 14 2019 18:57 Vindicare605 wrote: Are people actually complaining about mass BC in this thread? Rofl. Get real guys, that shit almost never happens.
It's a genuine discussion about counterplay vs them. The fact is that there's almost none and BCs ARE the best unit in the game.
There's no "Almost" about it. As I said the only option for Protoss is Alt+F4 the minute you see one.
You can definitely play around them a bit with double recall (mothership+nexus) and mass batteries to outtrade terran eventually. Just very very hard to do (cant make a single mistake or BCs jump you out of battery range/kill your bases)
On April 14 2019 19:04 goody153 wrote: So Maru now has the same amounts of GSL's as MVP ?
Yessir, and he's done 4 in a row.
Mvp would have more if his wrists werent dead, feels bad.
Mvp got his comeback in HoTS winning WCS Europe and going the distance in the World Final afterward. Mvp had an amazing story even despite his wrist injuries with a SC1 career that came before that.
Maru is ALL Starcraft 2. He's been doing GSL since he was what? 12? His story is just as great, and now that he's in his prime, it's anyone's guess how far he can go before he stops.
On April 14 2019 19:04 goody153 wrote: So Maru now has the same amounts of GSL's as MVP ?
Yessir, and he's done 4 in a row.
Mvp would have more if his wrists werent dead, feels bad.
Probably not. The scene got aloot more competitive got really competitive ones people like innovation etc arrived on the scene.
Insert stuchiu anecdote about Mvp going toe to toe with Innovation in his 2013 prime coming back from losing literally infinite workers to take an unwinnable game despite a destroyed back, neck and unusable wrists.
On April 14 2019 19:04 goody153 wrote: So Maru now has the same amounts of GSL's as MVP ?
Yessir, and he's done 4 in a row.
Mvp would have more if his wrists werent dead, feels bad.
Mvp got his comeback in HoTS winning WCS Europe and going the distance in the World Final afterward. Mvp had an amazing story even despite his wrist injuries with a SC1 career that came before that.
Maru is ALL Starcraft 2. He's been doing GSL since he was what? 12? His story is just as great, and now that he's in his prime, it's anyone's guess how far he can go before he stops.
Im afraid this will get worse. There is no new blood in GSL. The cliff of military service / the body performance drop off at ~ 27 years is going to catch up everybody else years before Maru. Maru vs the grandpas who already did military service it will be.
Game 1 Blink-Stalker rush by Classic defended by Maru. Maru moves out and destroys Classic's army at the second nexus. Classic 0:1 Maru
Game 2 Stalker rush by Classic is scouted by Maru, but it still gets 9 SCVs. Maru sends out a Widow Mine drop which is caught by Classic's Phoenixes. The Phoenixes then get 12 more SCVs. Maru switches into a defensive stance. Classic attacks with overwhelming numbers and gets 22 SCVs. Classic 1:1 Maru
Game 3 Maru defends early game attacks by Classic at his main. He then moves out with Marines, Siege Tanks, Vikings and a Raven. Classic is slightly out of position. Maru gets his tanks into a good position and easily destroys his opponent's whole army. Classic 1:2 Maru
Game 4 Tempest rush by Classic. When Maru scouts the Fleet Beacon, he starts pumping out Cyclones and builds two bunkers at his ramp. Classic sets up a siege position with Shield Batteries. With the Tempests, he manages to destroy all of Maru's defenses. Classic 2:2 Maru
Game 5 Proxy gateway by Classic. Maru manages to set up a bunker in time and prevents any SCV losses. A long air battle between Tempest and Battle Cruisers ensues. Maru eventually uses Tactical Jump to take out all Tempests. Classic 2:3 Maru
Game 6 Maru catches three proxied Dark Templars in the early game. His Widow Mine drop destroys 7 Probes. Classic in turn removes 14 SCVs with seven Blink-Stalkers, but Maru has already marched across the map with his army. Classic defends the first wave, but then falls to the follow-up. Classic 2:4 Maru
On April 14 2019 19:04 goody153 wrote: So Maru now has the same amounts of GSL's as MVP ?
Yessir, and he's done 4 in a row.
Mvp would have more if his wrists werent dead, feels bad.
Probably not. The scene got aloot more competitive got really competitive ones people like innovation etc arrived on the scene.
Insert stuchiu anecdote about Mvp going toe to toe with Innovation in his 2013 prime coming back from losing literally infinite workers to take an unwinnable game despite a destroyed back, neck and unusable wrists.
I remember that fateful day, Mvp truly blessed us, may he rest in piece.
On April 14 2019 19:05 Morbidius wrote: Serral fans, this is what a Bonjwa looks like.
As I said yesterday, it's not even close to how a bonjwa should be; two tournaments in seven months? Must be bonjwa.. Maru is evidently the best Code S player in history; surely not bonjwa, most likely not GOAT.
On April 14 2019 18:50 Elentos wrote: Classic should take some lessons on how to play this situation. Obviously you're supposed to recall back and forth between nexus and mothership.
Was that Neeb vs TY?
It was Creator vs TY from last Super Tournament. Creator messed it up eventually like 45 minutes into the game but he had the fundamentals right I think.
creator didn't mess it up
the fact of the matter is that battlecruisers can manhandle their "counters" (tempests)
Yes, Creator messed it up.
he didn't mess up.
in a long game like that u cant do anything against a fleet of bcs with the ir unparalleled value
He was actually winning the game and then split his tempests, ran out of recalls and lost half his army separated, IIRC
was he actually "winning" when he was unable to do significant damage to TY
That's the thing with BCs. they got that damn teleportation + yamato. Creator needed to play flawlessly for an hour while TY could afford a lot more sloppiness because BCs are pound for pound the strongest unit in the game and can beat any "counter" with yamato. there's only like a 2 second difference between yamato and recall
TY also made like 20 marines to massacre teh tempest fleet because while Tempests are specialized, BCs are just all around powerful
On April 14 2019 19:11 ilovegroov wrote: Im afraid this will get worse. There is no new blood in GSL. The cliff of military service / the body performance drop off at ~ 27 years is going to catch up everybody else years before Maru. Maru vs the grandpas who already did military service it will be.
It surely doesn't help that this season Maru's greatest weakness was TvT and all the other Terrans got taken out by other races before they got to Maru.
On April 14 2019 19:05 Morbidius wrote: Serral fans, this is what a Bonjwa looks like.
As I said yesterday, it's not even close to how a bonjwa should be; two tournaments in seven months? Must be bonjwa.. Maru is evidently the best Code S player in history; surely not bonjwa, most likely not GOAT.
I think most people would beg to differ. Even as Inno fan, I think Maru has surpassed Inno at this point. No one else won 6 starleagues along with insane amount of ro4s. Inno can still catch up but it's unlikely tbh. Also, winning 4 out of 4 GSLs is pretty incredible even by BW standards.
Edit: I believe Maru won I think like 5 out of 12 premier tournaments he participated in during 2018. Unless you are comparing to FlaSh, winning 40% the tournaments sounds almost bonjwa level to me. especially since GSL is close to as prestigious as Blizzcon (some would argue that it's even more prestigious). What he's done is certainly close to as impressive as what Jaedong and Savior did in their primes (they won something like half the tournaments too) and those 2 are certainly not far off from bonjwa.
On April 14 2019 19:05 Morbidius wrote: Serral fans, this is what a Bonjwa looks like.
As I said yesterday, it's not even close to how a bonjwa should be; two tournaments in seven months? Must be bonjwa.. Maru is evidently the best Code S player in history; surely not bonjwa, most likely not GOAT.
How many premier tournaments there were in these 7 months? 4?
On April 14 2019 18:50 Elentos wrote: Classic should take some lessons on how to play this situation. Obviously you're supposed to recall back and forth between nexus and mothership.
Was that Neeb vs TY?
It was Creator vs TY from last Super Tournament. Creator messed it up eventually like 45 minutes into the game but he had the fundamentals right I think.
creator didn't mess it up
the fact of the matter is that battlecruisers can manhandle their "counters" (tempests)
Yes, Creator messed it up.
he didn't mess up.
in a long game like that u cant do anything against a fleet of bcs with the ir unparalleled value
He was actually winning the game and then split his tempests, ran out of recalls and lost half his army separated, IIRC
was he actually "winning" when he was unable to do significant damage to TY
That's the thing with BCs. they got that damn teleportation + yamato. Creator needed to play flawlessly for an hour while TY could afford a lot more sloppiness because BCs are pound for pound the strongest unit in the game and can beat any "counter" with yamato. there's only like a 2 second difference between yamato and recall
TY also made like 20 marines to massacre teh tempest fleet because while Tempests are specialized, BCs are just all around powerful
Creator sort of had the right idea but TY was far ahead in eco iirc, you need to keep pushing forward with safe points that have batteries and cannons till you reach the terran main.
Maru is the GOAT*
* Only because Mvp's wrists literally died before he could be unreachable.
On April 14 2019 19:11 ilovegroov wrote: Im afraid this will get worse. There is no new blood in GSL. The cliff of military service / the body performance drop off at ~ 27 years is going to catch up everybody else years before Maru. Maru vs the grandpas who already did military service it will be.
It surely doesn't help that this season Maru's greatest weakness was TvT and all the other Terrans got taken out by other races before they got to Maru.
when youre too old to spot doom drops that doesn't help either. I also don't feel like Terran is very forgiving to old players.
On April 14 2019 18:50 Elentos wrote: Classic should take some lessons on how to play this situation. Obviously you're supposed to recall back and forth between nexus and mothership.
Was that Neeb vs TY?
It was Creator vs TY from last Super Tournament. Creator messed it up eventually like 45 minutes into the game but he had the fundamentals right I think.
creator didn't mess it up
the fact of the matter is that battlecruisers can manhandle their "counters" (tempests)
Yes, Creator messed it up.
he didn't mess up.
in a long game like that u cant do anything against a fleet of bcs with the ir unparalleled value
He was actually winning the game and then split his tempests, ran out of recalls and lost half his army separated, IIRC
was he actually "winning" when he was unable to do significant damage to TY
That's the thing with BCs. they got that damn teleportation + yamato. Creator needed to play flawlessly for an hour while TY could afford a lot more sloppiness because BCs are pound for pound the strongest unit in the game and can beat any "counter" with yamato. there's only like a 2 second difference between yamato and recall
TY also made like 20 marines to massacre teh tempest fleet because while Tempests are specialized, BCs are just all around powerful
Creator sort of had the right idea but TY was far ahead in eco iirc, you need to keep pushing forward with safe points that have batteries and cannons till you reach the terran main.
Maru is the GOAT*
* Only because Mvp's wrists literally died before he could be unreachable.
TY wasnt far ahead in economy. He was constantly behind around 20 workers and multiple bases to creator.
On April 14 2019 19:15 Anc13nt wrote: Maru is like Flash except there is no FantaSy-level terran who is near his level atm.
how about Inno, TY or even Gumiho? It's not like they have not won anything recently
Yeah but Inno isn't looking too good these days. He won WESG but not qualifying in ST and getting knocked out of GSL ro16 is not very good. Fantasy was much closer to Flash in terms of results (after 2010 ofc) than the other terrans are to Maru, imo.
On April 14 2019 19:05 Morbidius wrote: Serral fans, this is what a Bonjwa looks like.
As I said yesterday, it's not even close to how a bonjwa should be; two tournaments in seven months? Must be bonjwa.. Maru is evidently the best Code S player in history; surely not bonjwa, most likely not GOAT.
On April 14 2019 19:11 ilovegroov wrote: Im afraid this will get worse. There is no new blood in GSL. The cliff of military service / the body performance drop off at ~ 27 years is going to catch up everybody else years before Maru. Maru vs the grandpas who already did military service it will be.
Yeah I guess Neeb, Raynor, Scarlett, Special would be grandpas as well then.
On April 14 2019 19:05 Morbidius wrote: Serral fans, this is what a Bonjwa looks like.
As I said yesterday, it's not even close to how a bonjwa should be; two tournaments in seven months? Must be bonjwa.. Maru is evidently the best Code S player in history; surely not bonjwa, most likely not GOAT.
OK
Also, 2 tournaments in seven months is pretty misleading since there wasn't much happening from like November to February (winning 2 out of 5 tournaments in that 7 month time period isn't too bad either).
On April 14 2019 19:05 Morbidius wrote: Serral fans, this is what a Bonjwa looks like.
As I said yesterday, it's not even close to how a bonjwa should be; two tournaments in seven months? Must be bonjwa.. Maru is evidently the best Code S player in history; surely not bonjwa, most likely not GOAT.
Don’t be salty lol, no other player ever came close to this in the history of StarCraft 2. And he did it across patches nonetheless, while all others terrans struggled to even qualify for events.
It’s not even about is he GOAT at this point, it’s obvious he is, it’s about will we see another contender for GOAT before sc2 dies as an esport?
On April 14 2019 19:15 Anc13nt wrote: Maru is like Flash except there is no FantaSy-level terran who is near his level atm.
Eh.....
I'd say if Maru was beatable in a match up it's in TvT.
TY, Innovation and Gumiho are all REALLY good TvT players. I'd give all of them pretty decent odds at taking Maru out in a Bo7, with TY I'd say being an even 1:1 odds maybe -1.2 or something.
In TvZ Maru is kind of all over the place, looking brilliant one series and not so much in the next.
It's only TvP where he looks like he can't actually be stopped.
On April 14 2019 19:15 Anc13nt wrote: Maru is like Flash except there is no FantaSy-level terran who is near his level atm.
Eh.....
I'd say if Maru was beatable in a match up it's in TvT.
TY, Innovation and Gumiho are all REALLY good TvT players. I'd give all of them pretty decent odds at taking Maru out in a Bo7, with TY I'd say being an even 1:1 odds maybe -1.2 or something.
In TvZ Maru is kind of all over the place, looking brilliant one series and not so much in the next.
It's only TvP where he looks like he can't actually be stopped.
I agree. Maru results-wise is way better than the other terrans but he often looks like he can lose to anyone. Evidently when it matters most, he can look as if he can't lose to anyone.
On April 14 2019 19:05 Morbidius wrote: Serral fans, this is what a Bonjwa looks like.
As I said yesterday, it's not even close to how a bonjwa should be; two tournaments in seven months? Must be bonjwa.. Maru is evidently the best Code S player in history; surely not bonjwa, most likely not GOAT.
Don’t be salty lol, no other player ever came close to this in the history of StarCraft 2. And he did it across patches nonetheless, while all others terrans struggled to even qualify for events.
It’s not even about is he GOAT at this point, it’s obvious he is, it’s about will we see another contender for GOAT before sc2 dies as an esport?
On April 14 2019 19:15 Anc13nt wrote: Maru is like Flash except there is no FantaSy-level terran who is near his level atm.
Eh.....
I'd say if Maru was beatable in a match up it's in TvT.
TY, Innovation and Gumiho are all REALLY good TvT players. I'd give all of them pretty decent odds at taking Maru out in a Bo7, with TY I'd say being an even 1:1 odds maybe -1.2 or something.
In TvZ Maru is kind of all over the place, looking brilliant one series and not so much in the next.
It's only TvP where he looks like he can't actually be stopped.
but you said that cause his playoffs has been vs toss. Maru is fucking incredible at TvZ an TvT. Sure, the guy loses some matches, but who doesnt? I stil remember when people were giving gumiho the advantage in his match vs Maru in a GSL playoff and got sweep 3-0 with ease by Maru.
On April 14 2019 19:05 Morbidius wrote: Serral fans, this is what a Bonjwa looks like.
As I said yesterday, it's not even close to how a bonjwa should be; two tournaments in seven months? Must be bonjwa.. Maru is evidently the best Code S player in history; surely not bonjwa, most likely not GOAT.
Don’t be salty lol, no other player ever came close to this in the history of StarCraft 2. And he did it across patches nonetheless, while all others terrans struggled to even qualify for events.
It’s not even about is he GOAT at this point, it’s obvious he is, it’s about will we see another contender for GOAT before sc2 dies as an esport?
Its all bitter Serral/Life fans or nostalgic Mvp fans.
On April 14 2019 19:05 Morbidius wrote: Serral fans, this is what a Bonjwa looks like.
As I said yesterday, it's not even close to how a bonjwa should be; two tournaments in seven months? Must be bonjwa.. Maru is evidently the best Code S player in history; surely not bonjwa, most likely not GOAT.
Don’t be salty lol, no other player ever came close to this in the history of StarCraft 2. And he did it across patches nonetheless, while all others terrans struggled to even qualify for events.
It’s not even about is he GOAT at this point, it’s obvious he is, it’s about will we see another contender for GOAT before sc2 dies as an esport?
GOATs dont get swept at blizzcon lol
But they do win the GSL 4 times in a row. Something that nobody has come remotely close to
On April 14 2019 19:05 Morbidius wrote: Serral fans, this is what a Bonjwa looks like.
As I said yesterday, it's not even close to how a bonjwa should be; two tournaments in seven months? Must be bonjwa.. Maru is evidently the best Code S player in history; surely not bonjwa, most likely not GOAT.
Don’t be salty lol, no other player ever came close to this in the history of StarCraft 2. And he did it across patches nonetheless, while all others terrans struggled to even qualify for events.
It’s not even about is he GOAT at this point, it’s obvious he is, it’s about will we see another contender for GOAT before sc2 dies as an esport?
GOATs dont get swept at blizzcon lol
So by your logic there would be no GOAT right?
Since the other GOAT contender did not qualify for the last Blizzcon and has in fact never won it either?
On April 14 2019 19:05 Morbidius wrote: Serral fans, this is what a Bonjwa looks like.
As I said yesterday, it's not even close to how a bonjwa should be; two tournaments in seven months? Must be bonjwa.. Maru is evidently the best Code S player in history; surely not bonjwa, most likely not GOAT.
Don’t be salty lol, no other player ever came close to this in the history of StarCraft 2. And he did it across patches nonetheless, while all others terrans struggled to even qualify for events.
It’s not even about is he GOAT at this point, it’s obvious he is, it’s about will we see another contender for GOAT before sc2 dies as an esport?
GOATs dont get swept at blizzcon lol
So by your logic there would be no GOAT right?
Since the other GOAT contender did not qualify for the last Blizzcon and has in fact never won it either?
Its probably one of those people who started when the game went free to play and who thinks Serral is the GOAT.
Great play by Maru but the decline of Korean SC is obvious. There is only one protoss at the very top: stats. Serral, the top zerg is a foreigner, in fact it is likely that the top two zergs are foreigners and both of those are likely below Life. Korean terrans other than Maru are highly inconsistent. Expect Maru to win many more GSLs, there is only one and half players who can stop him.
On April 14 2019 19:05 Morbidius wrote: Serral fans, this is what a Bonjwa looks like.
As I said yesterday, it's not even close to how a bonjwa should be; two tournaments in seven months? Must be bonjwa.. Maru is evidently the best Code S player in history; surely not bonjwa, most likely not GOAT.
Don’t be salty lol, no other player ever came close to this in the history of StarCraft 2. And he did it across patches nonetheless, while all others terrans struggled to even qualify for events.
It’s not even about is he GOAT at this point, it’s obvious he is, it’s about will we see another contender for GOAT before sc2 dies as an esport?
GOATs dont get swept at blizzcon lol
So by your logic there would be no GOAT right?
Since the other GOAT contender did not qualify for the last Blizzcon and has in fact never won it either?
And all the Blizzcon winners are not even close in Code S department. Damn
On April 14 2019 19:34 Xitah wrote: Great play by Maru but the decline of Korean SC is obvious. There is only one protoss at the very top: stats. Serral, the top zerg is a foreigner, in fact it is likely that the top two zergs are foreigners and both of those are likely below Life. Korean terrans other than Maru are highly inconsistent. Expect Maru to win many more GSLs, there is only one and half players who can stop him.
Yeah can't help but feel that despite how amazing Maru has been playing, this wouldn't/shouldn't have been possible a few years ago when the scene was stronger.
On April 14 2019 19:34 Xitah wrote: Great play by Maru but the decline of Korean SC is obvious. There is only one protoss at the very top: stats. Serral, the top zerg is a foreigner, in fact it is likely that the top two zergs are foreigners and both of those are likely below Life. Korean terrans other than Maru are highly inconsistent. Expect Maru to win many more GSLs, there is only one and half players who can stop him.
What are you talking about? Terrans other than Maru highly inconsistent? Thats like not true. Only one protoss at the very top? There is like 4 or 5, but ofc if you define very top as a one spot place by definition there is only one. Best zergs are foreigners? Ok cool, but NO. Specially if you count reynor as a best zerg just because he beated serrral like 2 weeks ago, where do you put soO then? 3rd? Just stop with this.
On April 14 2019 19:34 Xitah wrote: Great play by Maru but the decline of Korean SC is obvious. There is only one protoss at the very top: stats. Serral, the top zerg is a foreigner, in fact it is likely that the top two zergs are foreigners and both of those are likely below Life. Korean terrans other than Maru are highly inconsistent. Expect Maru to win many more GSLs, there is only one and half players who can stop him.
Yeah can't help but feel that despite how amazing Maru has been playing, this wouldn't/shouldn't have been possible a few years ago when the scene was stronger.
The greatest names are still around, they're just not that good anymore while Maru increased his level. But yeah, with more good players and this volatile game it would be harder given the bo3 and the usual groups of death.
On April 14 2019 19:38 Morbidius wrote: By the way can TvP get fixed? This matchup is a joke to watch.
Yeah, I don't play the game very much. I'm wondering what caused the meta to shift into all these timing attacks. I basically don't see any 200/200 engagements with mid game tech anymore which sucks.
On April 14 2019 19:05 Morbidius wrote: Serral fans, this is what a Bonjwa looks like.
As I said yesterday, it's not even close to how a bonjwa should be; two tournaments in seven months? Must be bonjwa.. Maru is evidently the best Code S player in history; surely not bonjwa, most likely not GOAT.
Don’t be salty lol, no other player ever came close to this in the history of StarCraft 2. And he did it across patches nonetheless, while all others terrans struggled to even qualify for events.
It’s not even about is he GOAT at this point, it’s obvious he is, it’s about will we see another contender for GOAT before sc2 dies as an esport?
Its all bitter Serral/Life fans or nostalgic Mvp fans.
I count six Premier tournaments: Code S S3 2018, Super tournament II 2018, BlizzCon 2018, IEM Katowice 2019, WESG 2019, Cose S S1 2019.
It's not about saltiness, it's about the meaning of words: a Bonjwa losing 0-3 at BlizzCon ro8, not even making out of the groupstages at Katowice and winning 2/6 tournaments recently? Please...bonjwa is about domination, not consistency; Maru is a Code S bonjwa, for sure, no more than that.
As for GOAT, I see why you guys think he is the one since Code S is basically anything that's relevant in sc2 to your eyes. Maru lacks international successes and he only has seven Premier titles, he surely is closer to be GOAT than being a bonjwa but I still think there are more accomplished players around.
On April 14 2019 19:38 Morbidius wrote: By the way can TvP get fixed? This matchup is a joke to watch.
Yeah, I don't play the game very much. I'm wondering what caused the meta to shift into all these timing attacks. I basically don't see any 200/200 engagements with mid game tech anymore which sucks.
It's still the same just the pendulum swings more in favors of the races during the stages of the MU(i mean early/mid/late/super late game). Which results plaers try to finish the game(or get an advantage) while the pendulum swings their way(or is not that far from the middle).
On April 14 2019 19:05 Morbidius wrote: Serral fans, this is what a Bonjwa looks like.
As I said yesterday, it's not even close to how a bonjwa should be; two tournaments in seven months? Must be bonjwa.. Maru is evidently the best Code S player in history; surely not bonjwa, most likely not GOAT.
Don’t be salty lol, no other player ever came close to this in the history of StarCraft 2. And he did it across patches nonetheless, while all others terrans struggled to even qualify for events.
It’s not even about is he GOAT at this point, it’s obvious he is, it’s about will we see another contender for GOAT before sc2 dies as an esport?
Its all bitter Serral/Life fans or nostalgic Mvp fans.
I count six Premier tournaments: Code S S3 2018, Super tournament II 2018, BlizzCon 2018, IEM Katowice 2019, WESG 2019, Cose S S1 2019.
It's not about saltiness, it's about the meaning of words: a Bonjwa losing 0-3 at BlizzCon ro8, not even making out of the groupstages at Katowice and winning 2/6 tournaments recently? Please...bonjwa is about domination, not consistency; Maru is a Code S bonjwa, for sure, no more than that.
As for GOAT, I see why you guys think he is the one since Code S is basically anything that's relevant in sc2 to your eyes. Maru lacks international successes and he only has seven Premier titles, he surely is closer to be GOAT than being a bonjwa but I still think there are more accomplished players around.
Yeah, Maru is lacking wins over these foreign ZvZs clowfiestas, why would he be the GOAT with 4 GSL wins? Can't call him the GOAT until he wins 4 WCS Chechenyas in a row or something.
On April 14 2019 19:38 Morbidius wrote: By the way can TvP get fixed? This matchup is a joke to watch.
Yeah, I don't play the game very much. I'm wondering what caused the meta to shift into all these timing attacks. I basically don't see any 200/200 engagements with mid game tech anymore which sucks.
It's still the same just the pendulum swings more in favors of the races during the stages of the MU(i mean early/mid/late/super late game). Which results plaers try to finish the game(or get an advantage) while the pendulum swings their way(or is not that far from the middle).
tbh, I think this new meta is worse than the old proxy meta lol.
On April 14 2019 19:38 Morbidius wrote: By the way can TvP get fixed? This matchup is a joke to watch.
Yeah, I don't play the game very much. I'm wondering what caused the meta to shift into all these timing attacks. I basically don't see any 200/200 engagements with mid game tech anymore which sucks.
It's still the same just the pendulum swings more in favors of the races during the stages of the MU(i mean early/mid/late/super late game). Which results plaers try to finish the game(or get an advantage) while the pendulum swings their way(or is not that far from the middle).
On April 14 2019 19:38 Morbidius wrote: By the way can TvP get fixed? This matchup is a joke to watch.
Yeah, I don't play the game very much. I'm wondering what caused the meta to shift into all these timing attacks. I basically don't see any 200/200 engagements with mid game tech anymore which sucks.
It's still the same just the pendulum swings more in favors of the races during the stages of the MU(i mean early/mid/late/super late game). Which results plaers try to finish the game(or get an advantage) while the pendulum swings their way(or is not that far from the middle).
tbh, I think this new meta is worse than the old proxy meta lol.
It is because the pendulum od advantage through the game swings more in favor of races It is worse because the MU is worse.
On April 14 2019 19:34 Xitah wrote: Great play by Maru but the decline of Korean SC is obvious. There is only one protoss at the very top: stats. Serral, the top zerg is a foreigner, in fact it is likely that the top two zergs are foreigners and both of those are likely below Life. Korean terrans other than Maru are highly inconsistent. Expect Maru to win many more GSLs, there is only one and half players who can stop him.
Serral being the top Zerg has nothing to do with him being non korean, it's a matter of skill.
Actually, if Dark avoided to lose that last game against Classic we might have had a series. There are players who can stop Maru in Code S, they just(surprisingly?) choke very often; Rogue and TY, just to name a few.
Maru is probably the best player of LotV, but imo we can’t compare post kespa era to pre kespa era. The competition these days is so bland that code S qualifiers are nearly a joke. There’s no proleague, no starleague and GSL is way too predictable until ro8.
And furthermore , Flash dominance of 2009-2010 is way above any Starcraft 2 player ever had. GOD literally showed to be a top1/top2 in every occasion he had, in a period where Starcraft was The Game in KR.
Maru is still impressive , but a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014, not to talk about a win in BroodWar. Despite what casters may say to hype the crowd , competition is not remotely close.
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: Maru is probably the best player of LotV, but imo we can’t compare post kespa era to pre kespa era. The competition these days is so bland that code S qualifiers are nearly a joke. There’s no proleague, no starleague and GSL is way too predictable until ro8.
And furthermore , Flash dominance of 2009-2010 is way above any Starcraft 2 player ever had. GOD literally showed to be a top1/top2 in every occasion he had, in a period where Starcraft was The Game in KR.
Maru is still impressive , but a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014, not to talk about a win in BroodWar. Despite what casters may say to hype the crowd , competition is not remotely close.
yup
i mean the maru fan squad hypes code S so much, but the other SC2 titan in serral doesnt even participate in it.
u cant call someone the GOAT when the tournaments he wins doesnt even have the best/second best player in the world (and when he does participate in the same tournaments as serral he underperforms)
neither serral nor maru are the GOATs or even bonjwas
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: Maru is probably the best player of LotV, but imo we can’t compare post kespa era to pre kespa era. The competition these days is so bland that code S qualifiers are nearly a joke. There’s no proleague, no starleague and GSL is way too predictable until ro8.
And furthermore , Flash dominance of 2009-2010 is way above any Starcraft 2 player ever had. GOD literally showed to be a top1/top2 in every occasion he had, in a period where Starcraft was The Game in KR.
Maru is still impressive , but a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014, not to talk about a win in BroodWar. Despite what casters may say to hype the crowd , competition is not remotely close.
Sad reality, but Maru is not someone who showed up to abuse a weak competition like some scandinavian players, he was a titan in Kespa era and the ace of one of the best teams. And unlike KT and SKT who had plenty of good players, Maru was definitely the man of JAGW.
I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
yea look at taeja for exmple
he did all of that during a time when talent was deep and terran was weak. what a monster
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
yea look at taeja for exmple
he did all of that during a time when talent was deep and terran was weak. what a monster
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
yea look at taeja for exmple
he did all of that during a time when talent was deep and terran was weak. what a monster
fucking saved
in that hots era, Terran went almost a year without winning a single premier tournament. the drough wouldve been so much longer if it werent for taeja
it's like 2018 protoss. where they won 2/15 premier tournaments (probably fewere this year since Blizzard keeps nerfing them )
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
Hello good sir, would you be interested in writing the TL Awards article this year?
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
yea look at taeja for exmple
he did all of that during a time when talent was deep and terran was weak. what a monster
The shocking thing is that people actually genuinely this. Taeja is a GOAT contender despite his zero korean wins.
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
yea look at taeja for exmple
he did all of that during a time when talent was deep and terran was weak. what a monster
fucking saved
in that hots era, Terran went almost a year without winning a single premier tournament. the drough wouldve been so much longer if it werent for taeja
it's like 2018 protoss. where they won 2/15 premier tournaments (probably fewere this year since Blizzard keeps nerfing them )
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
yea look at taeja for exmple
he did all of that during a time when talent was deep and terran was weak. what a monster
The shocking thing is that people actually genuinely this. Taeja is a GOAT contender despite his zero korean wins.
yo man he almost hit diamonds hes digging straight down tho
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: Maru is probably the best player of LotV, but imo we can’t compare post kespa era to pre kespa era. The competition these days is so bland that code S qualifiers are nearly a joke. There’s no proleague, no starleague and GSL is way too predictable until ro8.
And furthermore , Flash dominance of 2009-2010 is way above any Starcraft 2 player ever had. GOD literally showed to be a top1/top2 in every occasion he had, in a period where Starcraft was The Game in KR.
Maru is still impressive , but a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014, not to talk about a win in BroodWar. Despite what casters may say to hype the crowd , competition is not remotely close.
yup
i mean the maru fan squad hypes code S so much, but the other SC2 titan in serral doesnt even participate in it.
u cant call someone the GOAT when the tournaments he wins doesnt even have the best/second best player in the world (and when he does participate in the same tournaments as serral he underperforms)
neither serral nor maru are the GOATs or even bonjwas
Code S still has top players of the world. If we give Neeb, Scarlett, Reynor, Serral and mjr Special a rank of RO16 Code S player(which all of them are not at the same time usually), we still have 11 Koreans to complete the RO16 who are good.
So Maru is competing in the most difficult tournament we have and won it 4 times in a row across different patches and what's more importnat, he was the dominating Terran. While we can talk about Serral, we can talk about Reynor, Rogue, Dark, soO. Who else had any major success as a Terran except Innovation in WESG this year? TY's 2nd place in Code S? We can talk about Neeb, Stats, Classic, Zest...
AND? It doesn't look like there's that many good Terran or that the game favors the race yet Maru keeps winning GSL titles.
ANd it's not MAru's fault Serral is avoiding Korea.
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: Maru is probably the best player of LotV, but imo we can’t compare post kespa era to pre kespa era. The competition these days is so bland that code S qualifiers are nearly a joke. There’s no proleague, no starleague and GSL is way too predictable until ro8.
And furthermore , Flash dominance of 2009-2010 is way above any Starcraft 2 player ever had. GOD literally showed to be a top1/top2 in every occasion he had, in a period where Starcraft was The Game in KR.
Maru is still impressive , but a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014, not to talk about a win in BroodWar. Despite what casters may say to hype the crowd , competition is not remotely close.
Maru was still dominating Pro League though during the KESPA era in SC2. He just struggled to win the individual tournaments. But he was a monster in Pro League, year after year.
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014 ... competition is not remotely close.
were you watching the same games as me in 2014?? the level of play is now substantially higher than in 2014. the reason why you just don't see so many sick micro moments and incredible marine splits is because this style of play has been patched out of the meta. mass marine / mine vs lingbanemuta isn't even possible anymore. you can't drop zerg all game long. tvz in 2014 was lightning fast and more impressive to watch. tvp in 2014, same story. terran could do loads of multi-pronged drops, attacking 3 or 4 places at the same time. now because of the way the game has been patched, terran must keep his entire army together in 1 force. the competition is still just as fierce
On April 14 2019 19:46 ilovegroov wrote: y'all saying Maru has bad TvT... he played like two TvTs this year.
He lost to Bunny and he lost to Innovation, got read like a book. Maru obviously doesn't have an actual bad match-up but it's fair to say TvT is the one he's most likely to lose.
On April 14 2019 19:05 Morbidius wrote: Serral fans, this is what a Bonjwa looks like.
As I said yesterday, it's not even close to how a bonjwa should be; two tournaments in seven months? Must be bonjwa.. Maru is evidently the best Code S player in history; surely not bonjwa, most likely not GOAT.
Don’t be salty lol, no other player ever came close to this in the history of StarCraft 2. And he did it across patches nonetheless, while all others terrans struggled to even qualify for events.
It’s not even about is he GOAT at this point, it’s obvious he is, it’s about will we see another contender for GOAT before sc2 dies as an esport?
Its all bitter Serral/Life fans or nostalgic Mvp fans.
I count six Premier tournaments: Code S S3 2018, Super tournament II 2018, BlizzCon 2018, IEM Katowice 2019, WESG 2019, Cose S S1 2019.
It's not about saltiness, it's about the meaning of words: a Bonjwa losing 0-3 at BlizzCon ro8, not even making out of the groupstages at Katowice and winning 2/6 tournaments recently? Please...bonjwa is about domination, not consistency; Maru is a Code S bonjwa, for sure, no more than that.
As for GOAT, I see why you guys think he is the one since Code S is basically anything that's relevant in sc2 to your eyes. Maru lacks international successes and he only has seven Premier titles, he surely is closer to be GOAT than being a bonjwa but I still think there are more accomplished players around.
Yeah, Maru is lacking wins over these foreign ZvZs clowfiestas, why would he be the GOAT with 4 GSL wins? Can't call him the GOAT until he wins 4 WCS Chechenyas in a row or something.
Embarassing bait attempt. Do you know of anything called IEM? WCS global finals? BlizzCon?
To name someone who is still playing the game, Inno is one who did not only win on asian soil(and won ten Premier titles in six years of career while Maru had to wait eight before becoming the best player in Korea).
Again, it's easy to understand such veneration, Korean tournaments are the only ones that matters, right? But wait, it's actually Code S only: Maru is the GOAT without the shade of a doubt, in this case...
On April 14 2019 19:46 ilovegroov wrote: y'all saying Maru has bad TvT... he played like two TvTs this year.
He lost to Bunny and he lost to Innovation, got read like a book. Maru obviously doesn't have an actual bad match-up but it's fair to say TvT is the one he's most likely to lose.
I guess, its still kind of a shot in the dark prediction imo
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: Maru is probably the best player of LotV, but imo we can’t compare post kespa era to pre kespa era. The competition these days is so bland that code S qualifiers are nearly a joke. There’s no proleague, no starleague and GSL is way too predictable until ro8.
And furthermore , Flash dominance of 2009-2010 is way above any Starcraft 2 player ever had. GOD literally showed to be a top1/top2 in every occasion he had, in a period where Starcraft was The Game in KR.
Maru is still impressive , but a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014, not to talk about a win in BroodWar. Despite what casters may say to hype the crowd , competition is not remotely close.
yup
i mean the maru fan squad hypes code S so much, but the other SC2 titan in serral doesnt even participate in it.
u cant call someone the GOAT when the tournaments he wins doesnt even have the best/second best player in the world (and when he does participate in the same tournaments as serral he underperforms)
neither serral nor maru are the GOATs or even bonjwas
Code S still has top players of the world. If we give Neeb, Scarlett, Reynor, Serral and mjr Special a rank of RO16 Code S player(which all of them are not at the same time usually), we still have 11 Koreans to complete the RO16 who are good.
So Maru is competing in the most difficult tournament we have and won it 4 times in a row across different patches and what's more importnat, he was the dominating Terran. While we can talk about Serral, we can talk about Reynor, Rogue, Dark, soO. Who else had any major success as a Terran except Innovation in WESG this year? TY's 2nd place in Code S? We can talk about Neeb, Stats, Classic, Zest...
AND? It doesn't look like there's that many good Terran or that the game favors the race yet Maru keeps winning GSL titles.
ANd it's not MAru's fault Serral is avoiding Korea.
GSL is still nothing compared what used to be in the past. We talked about this way before Maru started to win any of his GSL. He’s the best player in the world atm , but people who claim him to be the GOAT are really ignoring how easier is the league past kespa disband.
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: Maru is probably the best player of LotV, but imo we can’t compare post kespa era to pre kespa era. The competition these days is so bland that code S qualifiers are nearly a joke. There’s no proleague, no starleague and GSL is way too predictable until ro8.
And furthermore , Flash dominance of 2009-2010 is way above any Starcraft 2 player ever had. GOD literally showed to be a top1/top2 in every occasion he had, in a period where Starcraft was The Game in KR.
Maru is still impressive , but a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014, not to talk about a win in BroodWar. Despite what casters may say to hype the crowd , competition is not remotely close.
yup
i mean the maru fan squad hypes code S so much, but the other SC2 titan in serral doesnt even participate in it.
u cant call someone the GOAT when the tournaments he wins doesnt even have the best/second best player in the world (and when he does participate in the same tournaments as serral he underperforms)
neither serral nor maru are the GOATs or even bonjwas
Code S still has top players of the world. If we give Neeb, Scarlett, Reynor, Serral and mjr Special a rank of RO16 Code S player(which all of them are not at the same time usually), we still have 11 Koreans to complete the RO16 who are good.
So Maru is competing in the most difficult tournament we have and won it 4 times in a row across different patches and what's more importnat, he was the dominating Terran. While we can talk about Serral, we can talk about Reynor, Rogue, Dark, soO. Who else had any major success as a Terran except Innovation in WESG this year? TY's 2nd place in Code S? We can talk about Neeb, Stats, Classic, Zest...
AND? It doesn't look like there's that many good Terran or that the game favors the race yet Maru keeps winning GSL titles.
ANd it's not MAru's fault Serral is avoiding Korea.
Look - I'm not saying Maru is not a beast. he has the strongest case for best player in the world atm imo
I'm just saying he's not GOAT.
indeed, Code S is still dominated by koreans. but compared to the previous years....the talent is lacking
Greatest of all time is a strong title. I do not believe he is the michael jordan of sc2. Peak Michael jordan never got swept like a chump like Maru did in literally blizzcon (maru stated that money is most important to him so nobody can say he doesnt care about those payday tournaments)
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014 ... competition is not remotely close.
were you watching the same games as me in 2014?? the level of play is now substantially higher than in 2014. the reason why you just don't see so many sick micro moments and incredible marine splits is because this style of play has been patched out of the meta. mass marine / mine vs lingbanemuta isn't even possible anymore. you can't drop zerg all game long. tvz in 2014 was lightning fast and more impressive to watch. tvp in 2014, same story. terran could do loads of multi-pronged drops, attacking 3 or 4 places at the same time. now because of the way the game has been patched, terran must keep his entire army together in 1 force. the competition is still just as fierce
You can't compare the games in the vacuum as the players developped with the game. Back in 2014 the top 32 players of the world were in Korea and had the Korean citizenship. I dare to say top 50 players of the world were Koreans, but I give you 1 or 2 foreigners in it for the funs.
In this stacked competition and the volatility of the game it wouldn't be possible to be this dominating as sooner or later somebody will get you. GSL RO32 was pretty stacked back then.
That being said we need to mention Maru was a monster in Proleague back then... so it's not like he was bad or something.
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: Maru is probably the best player of LotV, but imo we can’t compare post kespa era to pre kespa era. The competition these days is so bland that code S qualifiers are nearly a joke. There’s no proleague, no starleague and GSL is way too predictable until ro8.
And furthermore , Flash dominance of 2009-2010 is way above any Starcraft 2 player ever had. GOD literally showed to be a top1/top2 in every occasion he had, in a period where Starcraft was The Game in KR.
Maru is still impressive , but a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014, not to talk about a win in BroodWar. Despite what casters may say to hype the crowd , competition is not remotely close.
yup
i mean the maru fan squad hypes code S so much, but the other SC2 titan in serral doesnt even participate in it.
u cant call someone the GOAT when the tournaments he wins doesnt even have the best/second best player in the world (and when he does participate in the same tournaments as serral he underperforms)
neither serral nor maru are the GOATs or even bonjwas
Code S still has top players of the world. If we give Neeb, Scarlett, Reynor, Serral and mjr Special a rank of RO16 Code S player(which all of them are not at the same time usually), we still have 11 Koreans to complete the RO16 who are good.
So Maru is competing in the most difficult tournament we have and won it 4 times in a row across different patches and what's more importnat, he was the dominating Terran. While we can talk about Serral, we can talk about Reynor, Rogue, Dark, soO. Who else had any major success as a Terran except Innovation in WESG this year? TY's 2nd place in Code S? We can talk about Neeb, Stats, Classic, Zest...
AND? It doesn't look like there's that many good Terran or that the game favors the race yet Maru keeps winning GSL titles.
ANd it's not MAru's fault Serral is avoiding Korea.
GSL is still nothing compared what used to be in the past. We talked about this way before Maru started to win any of his GSL. He’s the best player in the world atm , but people who claim him to be the GOAT are really ignoring how easier is the league past kespa disband.
DOesn';t matter much as Maru was great even bacfk then. He got the best proleague player for a reason... jeesus fucking christ, at least rewatch the old games, the blink era? Maru was the best terran, where was Innovation? Mvp? Serral?
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: Maru is probably the best player of LotV, but imo we can’t compare post kespa era to pre kespa era. The competition these days is so bland that code S qualifiers are nearly a joke. There’s no proleague, no starleague and GSL is way too predictable until ro8.
And furthermore , Flash dominance of 2009-2010 is way above any Starcraft 2 player ever had. GOD literally showed to be a top1/top2 in every occasion he had, in a period where Starcraft was The Game in KR.
Maru is still impressive , but a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014, not to talk about a win in BroodWar. Despite what casters may say to hype the crowd , competition is not remotely close.
Maru was still dominating Pro League though during the KESPA era in SC2. He just struggled to win the individual tournaments. But he was a monster in Pro League, year after year.
To be fair, so was Innovation during Pro League.
He won two starleagues and made ro4 in another three, and had decent showings (ro4+) at weekenders including blizzcon.
And he was probably the best proleague player ever. The idea that Maru struggled during kespa is just wrong. He was the best terran in korea overall in terms of consistency.
I really cannot comprehend how its even possible people to argue about bonjwa and goat when there are no clear/strict criteria what these titles actually mean. Everybody is putting their own criteria and claiming shit based on them and others are actually trying to dispute. Consider seeing a doctor guys or a shrink I dont know xDD
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: Maru is probably the best player of LotV, but imo we can’t compare post kespa era to pre kespa era. The competition these days is so bland that code S qualifiers are nearly a joke. There’s no proleague, no starleague and GSL is way too predictable until ro8.
And furthermore , Flash dominance of 2009-2010 is way above any Starcraft 2 player ever had. GOD literally showed to be a top1/top2 in every occasion he had, in a period where Starcraft was The Game in KR.
Maru is still impressive , but a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014, not to talk about a win in BroodWar. Despite what casters may say to hype the crowd , competition is not remotely close.
Maru was still dominating Pro League though during the KESPA era in SC2. He just struggled to win the individual tournaments. But he was a monster in Pro League, year after year.
To be fair, so was Innovation during Pro League.
He won two starleagues and made ro4 in another three, and had decent showings (ro4+) at weekenders including blizzcon.
And he was probably the best proleague player ever. The idea that Maru struggled during kespa is just wrong. He was the best terran in korea overall in terms of consistency.
With Innovation. BAck at the time he was a force to be reckon with
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
yea look at taeja for exmple
he did all of that during a time when talent was deep and terran was weak. what a monster
fucking saved
in that hots era, Terran went almost a year without winning a single premier tournament. the drough wouldve been so much longer if it werent for taeja
it's like 2018 protoss. where they won 2/15 premier tournaments (probably fewere this year since Blizzard keeps nerfing them )
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
yea look at taeja for exmple
he did all of that during a time when talent was deep and terran was weak. what a monster
The shocking thing is that people actually genuinely this. Taeja is a GOAT contender despite his zero korean wins.
yo man he almost hit diamonds hes digging straight down tho
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: Maru is probably the best player of LotV, but imo we can’t compare post kespa era to pre kespa era. The competition these days is so bland that code S qualifiers are nearly a joke. There’s no proleague, no starleague and GSL is way too predictable until ro8.
And furthermore , Flash dominance of 2009-2010 is way above any Starcraft 2 player ever had. GOD literally showed to be a top1/top2 in every occasion he had, in a period where Starcraft was The Game in KR.
Maru is still impressive , but a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014, not to talk about a win in BroodWar. Despite what casters may say to hype the crowd , competition is not remotely close.
yup
i mean the maru fan squad hypes code S so much, but the other SC2 titan in serral doesnt even participate in it.
u cant call someone the GOAT when the tournaments he wins doesnt even have the best/second best player in the world (and when he does participate in the same tournaments as serral he underperforms)
neither serral nor maru are the GOATs or even bonjwas
Code S still has top players of the world. If we give Neeb, Scarlett, Reynor, Serral and mjr Special a rank of RO16 Code S player(which all of them are not at the same time usually), we still have 11 Koreans to complete the RO16 who are good.
So Maru is competing in the most difficult tournament we have and won it 4 times in a row across different patches and what's more importnat, he was the dominating Terran. While we can talk about Serral, we can talk about Reynor, Rogue, Dark, soO. Who else had any major success as a Terran except Innovation in WESG this year? TY's 2nd place in Code S? We can talk about Neeb, Stats, Classic, Zest...
AND? It doesn't look like there's that many good Terran or that the game favors the race yet Maru keeps winning GSL titles.
ANd it's not MAru's fault Serral is avoiding Korea.
Thank you sir. Almost everything I wanted to say.
The player I was rooting against won so? the scene is dead...matchup is a joke....this wouldnt be possible X years ago.
I dont understand why do the people saying all of the above even watch? Because it certainly does not look like you appreciate decent starcraft irrespective of whoever won or lost. Specially since GSL is not "international" enough for some of you..
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
yea look at taeja for exmple
he did all of that during a time when talent was deep and terran was weak. what a monster
fucking saved
in that hots era, Terran went almost a year without winning a single premier tournament. the drough wouldve been so much longer if it werent for taeja
it's like 2018 protoss. where they won 2/15 premier tournaments (probably fewere this year since Blizzard keeps nerfing them )
Keep digging!
On April 14 2019 20:03 Fango wrote:
On April 14 2019 19:58 BerserkSword wrote:
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
yea look at taeja for exmple
he did all of that during a time when talent was deep and terran was weak. what a monster
The shocking thing is that people actually genuinely this. Taeja is a GOAT contender despite his zero korean wins.
yo man he almost hit diamonds hes digging straight down tho
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
yea look at taeja for exmple
he did all of that during a time when talent was deep and terran was weak. what a monster
fucking saved
in that hots era, Terran went almost a year without winning a single premier tournament. the drough wouldve been so much longer if it werent for taeja
it's like 2018 protoss. where they won 2/15 premier tournaments (probably fewere this year since Blizzard keeps nerfing them )
Keep digging!
On April 14 2019 20:03 Fango wrote:
On April 14 2019 19:58 BerserkSword wrote:
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
yea look at taeja for exmple
he did all of that during a time when talent was deep and terran was weak. what a monster
The shocking thing is that people actually genuinely this. Taeja is a GOAT contender despite his zero korean wins.
yo man he almost hit diamonds hes digging straight down tho
Maru was one of the top proleague players, but still wasn’t winning any individual tournaments , apart from a SSL, and was outshined by people like Innovation , Zest or Life.
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: Maru is probably the best player of LotV, but imo we can’t compare post kespa era to pre kespa era. The competition these days is so bland that code S qualifiers are nearly a joke. There’s no proleague, no starleague and GSL is way too predictable until ro8.
And furthermore , Flash dominance of 2009-2010 is way above any Starcraft 2 player ever had. GOD literally showed to be a top1/top2 in every occasion he had, in a period where Starcraft was The Game in KR.
Maru is still impressive , but a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014, not to talk about a win in BroodWar. Despite what casters may say to hype the crowd , competition is not remotely close.
Maru was still dominating Pro League though during the KESPA era in SC2. He just struggled to win the individual tournaments. But he was a monster in Pro League, year after year.
To be fair, so was Innovation during Pro League.
He won two starleagues and made ro4 in another three, and had decent showings (ro4+) at weekenders including blizzcon.
And he was probably the best proleague player ever. The idea that Maru struggled during kespa is just wrong. He was the best terran in korea overall in terms of consistency.
With Innovation. BAck at the time he was a force to be reckon with
and in his peak year he was swept in under 30 minutes like a scrub at blizzcon
maru is definitely one of the greatest playrs of all time. to say he is THE greatest player of all time is a major stretch though
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
That's a very high level meme(look who am I supporting against Maru as GOAT and laugh because you might even agree, this time).
The number of premier victories does matter, you guys forget too often winning is never easy; of course, quality of victories has to be valued too.
You perfectly know I think myself that Serral is not in contention for being GOAT; as for TaeJa, his impressive achievements are just almost the perfect mirror of Maru's(more victories, less prestigious. Never winning a Code S, not to mention a korean tournament, is indeed a significant flaw, I don't see TaeJa as GOAT despite holding him in high esteem).
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: Maru is probably the best player of LotV, but imo we can’t compare post kespa era to pre kespa era. The competition these days is so bland that code S qualifiers are nearly a joke. There’s no proleague, no starleague and GSL is way too predictable until ro8.
And furthermore , Flash dominance of 2009-2010 is way above any Starcraft 2 player ever had. GOD literally showed to be a top1/top2 in every occasion he had, in a period where Starcraft was The Game in KR.
Maru is still impressive , but a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014, not to talk about a win in BroodWar. Despite what casters may say to hype the crowd , competition is not remotely close.
yup
i mean the maru fan squad hypes code S so much, but the other SC2 titan in serral doesnt even participate in it.
u cant call someone the GOAT when the tournaments he wins doesnt even have the best/second best player in the world (and when he does participate in the same tournaments as serral he underperforms)
neither serral nor maru are the GOATs or even bonjwas
Code S still has top players of the world. If we give Neeb, Scarlett, Reynor, Serral and mjr Special a rank of RO16 Code S player(which all of them are not at the same time usually), we still have 11 Koreans to complete the RO16 who are good.
So Maru is competing in the most difficult tournament we have and won it 4 times in a row across different patches and what's more importnat, he was the dominating Terran. While we can talk about Serral, we can talk about Reynor, Rogue, Dark, soO. Who else had any major success as a Terran except Innovation in WESG this year? TY's 2nd place in Code S? We can talk about Neeb, Stats, Classic, Zest...
AND? It doesn't look like there's that many good Terran or that the game favors the race yet Maru keeps winning GSL titles.
ANd it's not MAru's fault Serral is avoiding Korea.
Thank you sir. Almost everything I wanted to say.
The player I was rooting against won so? the scene is dead...matchup is a joke....this wouldnt be possible X years ago.
I dont understand why do the people saying all of the above even watch? Because it certainly does not look like you appreciate decent starcraft irrespective of whoever won or lost. Specially since GSL is not "international" enough for some of you..
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
yea look at taeja for exmple
he did all of that during a time when talent was deep and terran was weak. what a monster
fucking saved
in that hots era, Terran went almost a year without winning a single premier tournament. the drough wouldve been so much longer if it werent for taeja
it's like 2018 protoss. where they won 2/15 premier tournaments (probably fewere this year since Blizzard keeps nerfing them )
Keep digging!
On April 14 2019 20:03 Fango wrote:
On April 14 2019 19:58 BerserkSword wrote:
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
yea look at taeja for exmple
he did all of that during a time when talent was deep and terran was weak. what a monster
The shocking thing is that people actually genuinely this. Taeja is a GOAT contender despite his zero korean wins.
yo man he almost hit diamonds hes digging straight down tho
Can someone appreciate my minecraft jokes pls?
Nobody here plays other games than Starcraft.
here come iloveagroov with a sudoku patern on his chest
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: Maru is probably the best player of LotV, but imo we can’t compare post kespa era to pre kespa era. The competition these days is so bland that code S qualifiers are nearly a joke. There’s no proleague, no starleague and GSL is way too predictable until ro8.
And furthermore , Flash dominance of 2009-2010 is way above any Starcraft 2 player ever had. GOD literally showed to be a top1/top2 in every occasion he had, in a period where Starcraft was The Game in KR.
Maru is still impressive , but a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014, not to talk about a win in BroodWar. Despite what casters may say to hype the crowd , competition is not remotely close.
Maru was still dominating Pro League though during the KESPA era in SC2. He just struggled to win the individual tournaments. But he was a monster in Pro League, year after year.
To be fair, so was Innovation during Pro League.
He won two starleagues and made ro4 in another three, and had decent showings (ro4+) at weekenders including blizzcon.
And he was probably the best proleague player ever. The idea that Maru struggled during kespa is just wrong. He was the best terran in korea overall in terms of consistency.
With Innovation. BAck at the time he was a force to be reckon with
and in his peak year he was swept in under 30 minutes like a scrub at blizzcon
maru is definitely one of the greatest playrs of all time. to say he is THE greatest player of all time is a major stretch though
You know INno is his peak year lost to DuckDeock at blizzcon right? You can find bad runs from literally any of the GOAT contenders.
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: Maru is probably the best player of LotV, but imo we can’t compare post kespa era to pre kespa era. The competition these days is so bland that code S qualifiers are nearly a joke. There’s no proleague, no starleague and GSL is way too predictable until ro8.
And furthermore , Flash dominance of 2009-2010 is way above any Starcraft 2 player ever had. GOD literally showed to be a top1/top2 in every occasion he had, in a period where Starcraft was The Game in KR.
Maru is still impressive , but a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014, not to talk about a win in BroodWar. Despite what casters may say to hype the crowd , competition is not remotely close.
Maru was still dominating Pro League though during the KESPA era in SC2. He just struggled to win the individual tournaments. But he was a monster in Pro League, year after year.
To be fair, so was Innovation during Pro League.
He won two starleagues and made ro4 in another three, and had decent showings (ro4+) at weekenders including blizzcon.
And he was probably the best proleague player ever. The idea that Maru struggled during kespa is just wrong. He was the best terran in korea overall in terms of consistency.
With Innovation. BAck at the time he was a force to be reckon with
and in his peak year he was swept in under 30 minutes like a scrub at blizzcon
maru is definitely one of the greatest playrs of all time. to say he is THE greatest player of all time is a major stretch though
As different people already said - some people won't be happy and find excuses even if Maru gets 6 Code S titles in a row, this is just pointless. So, see ya! No need to be here anymore, Maru won, created new record and equalized soO's old one. i'm happy and I don't need to argue over internets. We will never agree.
On April 14 2019 20:15 raff100 wrote: Maru was one of the top proleague players, but still wasn’t winning any individual tournaments , apart from a SSL, and was outshined by people like Innovation , Zest or Life.
Why do people keep saying this? During kespa Maru won as many starleagues as Zest and INno, and had more deep runs (ro4+) in them than both. Life wasn't close to Maru terms of korean events.
On April 14 2019 20:12 M2 wrote: I really cannot comprehend how its even possible people to argue about bonjwa and goat when there are no clear/strict criteria what these titles actually mean. Everybody is putting their own criteria and claiming shit based on them and others are actually trying to dispute. Consider seeing a doctor guys or a shrink I dont know xDD
On April 14 2019 20:15 raff100 wrote: Maru was one of the top proleague players, but still wasn’t winning any individual tournaments , apart from a SSL, and was outshined by people like Innovation , Zest or Life.
Why do people keep saying this? During kespa Maru won as many starleagues as Zest and INno, and had more deep runs (ro4+) in them than both. Life wasn't close to Maru terms of korean events.
And he had a better SPL record than any of them.
Just give up, they won't check the history records Go and enjoy this wonderful day which Maru prepared with his victory.
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: Maru is probably the best player of LotV, but imo we can’t compare post kespa era to pre kespa era. The competition these days is so bland that code S qualifiers are nearly a joke. There’s no proleague, no starleague and GSL is way too predictable until ro8.
And furthermore , Flash dominance of 2009-2010 is way above any Starcraft 2 player ever had. GOD literally showed to be a top1/top2 in every occasion he had, in a period where Starcraft was The Game in KR.
Maru is still impressive , but a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014, not to talk about a win in BroodWar. Despite what casters may say to hype the crowd , competition is not remotely close.
Maru was still dominating Pro League though during the KESPA era in SC2. He just struggled to win the individual tournaments. But he was a monster in Pro League, year after year.
To be fair, so was Innovation during Pro League.
He won two starleagues and made ro4 in another three, and had decent showings (ro4+) at weekenders including blizzcon.
And he was probably the best proleague player ever. The idea that Maru struggled during kespa is just wrong. He was the best terran in korea overall in terms of consistency.
With Innovation. BAck at the time he was a force to be reckon with
and in his peak year he was swept in under 30 minutes like a scrub at blizzcon
maru is definitely one of the greatest playrs of all time. to say he is THE greatest player of all time is a major stretch though
As different people already said - some people won't be happy and find excuses even if Maru gets 6 Code S titles in a row, this is just pointless. So, see ya!
Is like saying that Juventus is the strongest serie A team ever because they are close to win the 8 championship in a row. Yeah, the award is impressive, but still serie A is nowhere close to what was in 90s and early 2000. Winning trophies alone doesn’t matter for the GOAT title ,in my opinion.
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: Maru is probably the best player of LotV, but imo we can’t compare post kespa era to pre kespa era. The competition these days is so bland that code S qualifiers are nearly a joke. There’s no proleague, no starleague and GSL is way too predictable until ro8.
And furthermore , Flash dominance of 2009-2010 is way above any Starcraft 2 player ever had. GOD literally showed to be a top1/top2 in every occasion he had, in a period where Starcraft was The Game in KR.
Maru is still impressive , but a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014, not to talk about a win in BroodWar. Despite what casters may say to hype the crowd , competition is not remotely close.
Maru was still dominating Pro League though during the KESPA era in SC2. He just struggled to win the individual tournaments. But he was a monster in Pro League, year after year.
To be fair, so was Innovation during Pro League.
He won two starleagues and made ro4 in another three, and had decent showings (ro4+) at weekenders including blizzcon.
And he was probably the best proleague player ever. The idea that Maru struggled during kespa is just wrong. He was the best terran in korea overall in terms of consistency.
With Innovation. BAck at the time he was a force to be reckon with
and in his peak year he was swept in under 30 minutes like a scrub at blizzcon
maru is definitely one of the greatest playrs of all time. to say he is THE greatest player of all time is a major stretch though
You know INno is his peak year lost to DuckDeock at blizzcon right? You can find bad runs from literally any of the GOAT contenders.
first of all innovation wasnt swept by duckdeock
second of all, that wasnt innovation's peak year
third of all, i dont think innovation is the GOAT
the point is that maru's argument for GOAT comes from his 2018 form. when that form is swept at blizzcon, i dont see how it's GOAT
On April 14 2019 20:15 raff100 wrote: Maru was one of the top proleague players, but still wasn’t winning any individual tournaments , apart from a SSL, and was outshined by people like Innovation , Zest or Life.
Why do people keep saying this? During kespa Maru won as many starleagues as Zest and INno, and had more deep runs (ro4+) in them than both. Life wasn't close to Maru terms of korean events.
And he had a better SPL record than any of them.
Because these people think Maru started playing in 2018 for some reason.
On April 14 2019 19:05 Morbidius wrote: Serral fans, this is what a Bonjwa looks like.
As I said yesterday, it's not even close to how a bonjwa should be; two tournaments in seven months? Must be bonjwa.. Maru is evidently the best Code S player in history; surely not bonjwa, most likely not GOAT.
Don’t be salty lol, no other player ever came close to this in the history of StarCraft 2. And he did it across patches nonetheless, while all others terrans struggled to even qualify for events.
It’s not even about is he GOAT at this point, it’s obvious he is, it’s about will we see another contender for GOAT before sc2 dies as an esport?
GOATs dont get swept at blizzcon lol
You know alot of favorites each year in other esports scene don't tend to win the most important event of the year(aka the world championships).One tournament doesn't make a player shit when he can compete and win others. In the end that is just one tournament.
I mean in the dota2 scene alone it happens almost every year (TI4 DK/IG/EG was the expected champion none of them won, Secret TI5 did not win,TI6 had OG as the strongest whole year and didn't even make it to top 6, TI8 world champion was not the strongest team of that time but a random team that suddenly gained momentum by the time of the event )
That's just dota 2 scene alone.
Hell flash and effort doesn't even win everything in Broodwar when they're basically the best at the recent times.
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: Maru is probably the best player of LotV, but imo we can’t compare post kespa era to pre kespa era. The competition these days is so bland that code S qualifiers are nearly a joke. There’s no proleague, no starleague and GSL is way too predictable until ro8.
And furthermore , Flash dominance of 2009-2010 is way above any Starcraft 2 player ever had. GOD literally showed to be a top1/top2 in every occasion he had, in a period where Starcraft was The Game in KR.
Maru is still impressive , but a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014, not to talk about a win in BroodWar. Despite what casters may say to hype the crowd , competition is not remotely close.
Maru was still dominating Pro League though during the KESPA era in SC2. He just struggled to win the individual tournaments. But he was a monster in Pro League, year after year.
To be fair, so was Innovation during Pro League.
He won two starleagues and made ro4 in another three, and had decent showings (ro4+) at weekenders including blizzcon.
And he was probably the best proleague player ever. The idea that Maru struggled during kespa is just wrong. He was the best terran in korea overall in terms of consistency.
With Innovation. BAck at the time he was a force to be reckon with
and in his peak year he was swept in under 30 minutes like a scrub at blizzcon
maru is definitely one of the greatest playrs of all time. to say he is THE greatest player of all time is a major stretch though
You know INno is his peak year lost to DuckDeock at blizzcon right? You can find bad runs from literally any of the GOAT contenders.
first of all innovation wasnt swept by duckdeock
second of all, that wasnt innovation's peak year
third of all, i dont think innovation is the GOAT
the point is that maru's argument for GOAT comes from his 2018 form. when that form is swept at blizzcon, i dont see how it's GOAT
Fine, in his peak year INno was swept 0-4 in OSL, the tournament where he was the #1 player in the world and supposed to win. He also got REVERSE SWEPT in GSL, another tournament he was supposed to win. It doesn't matter if he didn't get swept by DuckDeock, he still lost to him at blizzcon which is an embarrassment.
2013 was his peak year in terms of form btw.
And I wasn't referring to you saying INno was GOAT. The point was you can find bad performances from any GOAT contender.
Absolutely incredible. I think Maru is the GOAT but I could understand Innovation still being #1.
Honestly MVP is probably not even top 3 GOAT, it's just hard to make the argument when he played during a time there were like 8 GSLs and 20 other tournaments during each year. His story is incredibly (best ever?) and he is definitely one of the greatest ever, but I think if other players had reached their peak during similar tournaments ecosystem environments his records would have got broken a long time ago.
Maru might be the GOAT in SC 2, but the decline in Korean SC is undeniable. Maru is going to win 6, 7, 8 or more GSLs. Don't worry guys, the decline is going to be obvious with every victory and with every post about the closing gap between the Korean and the foreign scene. As the top Korean declines and the foreign scene grows, the gap will eventually disappear.
On April 14 2019 20:42 Xitah wrote: Maru might be the GOAT in SC 2, but the decline in Korean SC is undeniable. Maru is going to win 6, 7, 8 or more GSLs. Don't worry guys, the decline is going to be obvious with every victory and with every post about the closing gap between the Korean and the foreign scene. As the top Korean declines and the foreign scene grows, the gap will eventually disappear.
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014 ... competition is not remotely close.
were you watching the same games as me in 2014?? the level of play is now substantially higher than in 2014. the reason why you just don't see so many sick micro moments and incredible marine splits is because this style of play has been patched out of the meta. mass marine / mine vs lingbanemuta isn't even possible anymore. you can't drop zerg all game long. tvz in 2014 was lightning fast and more impressive to watch. tvp in 2014, same story. terran could do loads of multi-pronged drops, attacking 3 or 4 places at the same time. now because of the way the game has been patched, terran must keep his entire army together in 1 force. the competition is still just as fierce
You can't compare the games in the vacuum as the players developped with the game. Back in 2014 the top 32 players of the world were in Korea and had the Korean citizenship. I dare to say top 50 players of the world were Koreans, but I give you 1 or 2 foreigners in it for the funs.
In this stacked competition and the volatility of the game it wouldn't be possible to be this dominating as sooner or later somebody will get you. GSL RO32 was pretty stacked back then.
That being said we need to mention Maru was a monster in Proleague back then... so it's not like he was bad or something.
I'm not sure if you are disputing my point or not. if you are, how do you back up the claim that the skill level was higher in 2014?
GSL RO8 was more competitive in 2014, but not because the skill level was higher in my opinion. the skill difference between Life, Rain, Innovation, soO, Zest and Maru was much tighter than the current RO8 line-up.
you say the competition was more stacked? I disagree. there was approximately the same quantity of doomed RO32 last-place finishers back then - think Ruin, Sora, Avenge, TAiLS, Terminator, and all those other hopeless B-teamers who got 4-0'd in their groups.
On April 14 2019 20:41 Pandain wrote: Absolutely incredible. I think Maru is the GOAT but I could understand Innovation still being #1.
Honestly MVP is probably not even top 3 GOAT, it's just hard to make the argument when he played during a time there were like 8 GSLs and 20 other tournaments during each year. His story is incredibly (best ever?) and he is definitely one of the greatest ever, but I think if other players had reached their peak during similar tournaments ecosystem environments his records would have got broken a long time ago.
How can MVP not even be top 3?
I have to remind you Maru was already playing at the time and it's not like he couldn't technically win because he was too young(he only slightly younger than Life).
Wtf i wanted to read about brilliant moves in today games, but every topic is about goat or not a goat. There were top players in history and you will never reach an agreement who is the best. stop it.
Maru used battlecrusers very well, in my experience BC are very bad vs air toss as tempest can fly faster than BC can taleport. I was sure classic will get easy win when maru started his transition.
I thought that the G5L trophy was in some CEO's office/house now?
By the way notice how Maru's preperation revolved around surviving Classic's preperation - and Classic still outprepared him. Maru is not a "preparation" player and this series just makes it all the more obvious.
On April 14 2019 23:27 Rodya wrote: I thought that the G5L trophy was in some CEO's office/house now?
By the way notice how Maru's preperation revolved around surviving Classic's preperation - and Classic still outprepared him. Maru is not a "preparation" player and this series just makes it all the more obvious.
That's true, he didn't bring to the table tailored builds to counter Classic's strats, it was actually the opposite. However, how do you solve the paradox of Maru winning almost only preparation tournaments? He might not prepare for specifical builds but evidently he thrives when given the time to train for a single matchup or opponent at least.
It might be the last time we see Classic in Code S, he will be missed; he could still retire in triumph if he wins the upcoming Super Tournament.
Maru was by far the superior player today, g5 was interesting due to BCs(and maybe Classic's build in g4 was nice too) but overall the series were more onesided in his favour than the score would suggest. He could deserve #1 on a Power Ranking, but would he really be the player you bet on at the start of any given tournament? There is no clear best player in the world at the moment.
The sc2 popularity decline in Korea is obvious. But explaining the Maru-Serral domination with the "oh the sc2 decline is terrible I miss the old good days" is just nonsense. I love MVP or Polt but cmon, its simply natural that the skill lvl of the players is higher nowadays than 7 or 8 years ago.
Back when Stephano was the korean-killer he won NASL3 defeating Alicia or IGN3 defeating Lucky. Naniwa was another foreign hope that was casually defeated by Stardust, Sen or Leenock. Back in 2015 Polt vs Hydra was the top-notch match in non-korean sc2 scene. Was GSL way more stacked during MVP prime? Sure. But google and see the brackets and the caliber of the players.
I miss the old days of sc2 for sure. From an spectator point of view it was so much fun, so many players, new blood in our scene, etc. But the less players algoritm as main explanation for Serral and Maru success? I don't buy it. Not only the tier1 players are crazy good nowadays, the common non-exceptional player is better too. The "oh sc2 competition is lackluster" lecture of Maru's 4 consecutive GSL is just partial and insubstantial, ignores so many key facts.
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
That's a very high level meme(look who am I supporting against Maru as GOAT and laugh because you might even agree, this time).
The number of premier victories does matter, you guys forget too often winning is never easy; of course, quality of victories has to be valued too.
You perfectly know I think myself that Serral is not in contention for being GOAT; as for TaeJa, his impressive achievements are just almost the perfect mirror of Maru's(more victories, less prestigious. Never winning a Code S, not to mention a korean tournament, is indeed a significant flaw, I don't see TaeJa as GOAT despite holding him in high esteem).
Before this tournament I still had Inno as GOAT but I think it's very hard to argue against 4 GSL victories in a row. As for bonjwa I agree with you though. He's closer to it than anyone has ever been but he just failed to hard at IEM and Blizzcon. If he had won one of those two OR at least reached the semis at both, he would've been definitely the first bonjwa.
people need to take off their rose-tinted glasses. during hots, I saw some very high profile koreans and euro pros (major tournament winners) lose to amateur ladder heroes (high master, low GM). it was rare enough... but it happened a hell of a lot more often than now. some of those amateurs that still play the game and are 5.3k on the ladder. chinks were present in the armour back then.
when people hark back to the good old kespa days, they argue that the presence of kespa team-houses raised the skill level in korea. this is true... but it is wrong to say that kespa's disbanding LOWERED the skill level across the board. all those players who are still competing in the GSL didn't just lose the work ethic and habits learned in a kespa team-house. those are lessons that stay with you for life. some players might have lapsed without the kespa training regimen. those who remain in the GSL have carried it with them
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
yea look at taeja for exmple
he did all of that during a time when talent was deep and terran was weak. what a monster
fucking saved
in that hots era, Terran went almost a year without winning a single premier tournament. the drough wouldve been so much longer if it werent for taeja
it's like 2018 protoss. where they won 2/15 premier tournaments (probably fewere this year since Blizzard keeps nerfing them )
2018 Protoss won more money than Terran despite Maru winning that much money :o, so don’t act like they were weak in 2018 or something.
4th GSL in a row is so incredible I don’t have many words anymore, even though the competition is a bit less stiff (at least we have less people throwing games on purpose tho!) it’s an incredible domination. Prime really recruited some of the finest terrans in StarCraft 2. MKP / Polt / ByuN / Maru...
Classic preparation was top notch but he is just inferior at the moment, the age difference was probably too much to overcome I guess.
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
That's a very high level meme(look who am I supporting against Maru as GOAT and laugh because you might even agree, this time).
The number of premier victories does matter, you guys forget too often winning is never easy; of course, quality of victories has to be valued too.
You perfectly know I think myself that Serral is not in contention for being GOAT; as for TaeJa, his impressive achievements are just almost the perfect mirror of Maru's(more victories, less prestigious. Never winning a Code S, not to mention a korean tournament, is indeed a significant flaw, I don't see TaeJa as GOAT despite holding him in high esteem).
Before this tournament I still had Inno as GOAT but I think it's very hard to argue against 4 GSL victories in a row. As for bonjwa I agree with you though. He's closer to it than anyone has ever been but he just failed to hard at IEM and Blizzcon. If he had won one of those two OR at least reached the semis at both, he would've been definitely the first bonjwa.
Ah, the code S bias is just too strong, I see; so one Code S and one OSL are better than WCS Global finals, two IEM and GSL vs the World(side note:I was convinced Inno had ten Premier titles)?
Maru is and has been far from being a bonjwa, he's way closer to GOAT title(relatively).
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
That's a very high level meme(look who am I supporting against Maru as GOAT and laugh because you might even agree, this time).
The number of premier victories does matter, you guys forget too often winning is never easy; of course, quality of victories has to be valued too.
You perfectly know I think myself that Serral is not in contention for being GOAT; as for TaeJa, his impressive achievements are just almost the perfect mirror of Maru's(more victories, less prestigious. Never winning a Code S, not to mention a korean tournament, is indeed a significant flaw, I don't see TaeJa as GOAT despite holding him in high esteem).
Before this tournament I still had Inno as GOAT but I think it's very hard to argue against 4 GSL victories in a row. As for bonjwa I agree with you though. He's closer to it than anyone has ever been but he just failed to hard at IEM and Blizzcon. If he had won one of those two OR at least reached the semis at both, he would've been definitely the first bonjwa.
Ah, the code S bias is just too strong, I see; so one Code S and one OSL are better than WCS Global finals, two IEM and GSL vs the World(side note:I was convinced Inno had ten Premier titles)?
Maru is and has been far from being a bonjwa, he's way closer to GOAT title(relatively).
Think you mean 2013 WCS season 2? Yeah if you put it that way, I don't think 2 GSL is necessarily better than those tournaments that Inno has over him. Seems Inno actually isn't too far off from Maru.
all those players who are still competing in the GSL didn't just lose the work ethic and habits learned in a kespa team-house. those are lessons that stay with you for life. some players might have lapsed without the kespa training regimen. those who remain in the GSL have carried it with them
Yeah lets take your word for it rather than what the pros themselves say. Fans have rose tinted glasses for the present.
I'll start entertaining arguments that winning GSL isn't far more impressive than GSLvsTheWorld/WCS/Blizzcon/WESG when a foreigner that does well at those events dominates a season of GSL. Neeb's round of 4 was one of the easiest paths to round of 4 in Code S history.
Maru is by far the best player in the world right now and it isn't close.
As for why his results seem to vary: his post match interview reveals all. He says the only thing left for him to do is win Blizzcon. I'm sorry but he just doesn't care as much about IEM/GslVsTheWorld/HSC/WESG/ST. He tries to win, but he is much more relaxed and as a result his mental suffers. For Maru what matters is Code S and winning a Blizzcon (due to historical importance).
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
That's a very high level meme(look who am I supporting against Maru as GOAT and laugh because you might even agree, this time).
The number of premier victories does matter, you guys forget too often winning is never easy; of course, quality of victories has to be valued too.
You perfectly know I think myself that Serral is not in contention for being GOAT; as for TaeJa, his impressive achievements are just almost the perfect mirror of Maru's(more victories, less prestigious. Never winning a Code S, not to mention a korean tournament, is indeed a significant flaw, I don't see TaeJa as GOAT despite holding him in high esteem).
Before this tournament I still had Inno as GOAT but I think it's very hard to argue against 4 GSL victories in a row. As for bonjwa I agree with you though. He's closer to it than anyone has ever been but he just failed to hard at IEM and Blizzcon. If he had won one of those two OR at least reached the semis at both, he would've been definitely the first bonjwa.
Ah, the code S bias is just too strong, I see; so one Code S and one OSL are better than WCS Global finals, two IEM and GSL vs the World(side note:I was convinced Inno had ten Premier titles)?
Maru is and has been far from being a bonjwa, he's way closer to GOAT title(relatively).
Think you mean 2013 WCS season 2? Yeah if you put it that way, I don't think 2 GSL is necessarily better than those tournaments that Inno has over him. Seems Inno actually isn't too far off from Maru.
Edit: WCS Season 1
Hm, yes, it's WCS Season 1. The term "global final" is inappropriate, that's BlizzCon; let's say WCS S1 Finals. Also, I'm not sure if OSL can be considered the same as a Code S.
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
That's a very high level meme(look who am I supporting against Maru as GOAT and laugh because you might even agree, this time).
The number of premier victories does matter, you guys forget too often winning is never easy; of course, quality of victories has to be valued too.
You perfectly know I think myself that Serral is not in contention for being GOAT; as for TaeJa, his impressive achievements are just almost the perfect mirror of Maru's(more victories, less prestigious. Never winning a Code S, not to mention a korean tournament, is indeed a significant flaw, I don't see TaeJa as GOAT despite holding him in high esteem).
Before this tournament I still had Inno as GOAT but I think it's very hard to argue against 4 GSL victories in a row. As for bonjwa I agree with you though. He's closer to it than anyone has ever been but he just failed to hard at IEM and Blizzcon. If he had won one of those two OR at least reached the semis at both, he would've been definitely the first bonjwa.
Ah, the code S bias is just too strong, I see; so one Code S and one OSL are better than WCS Global finals, two IEM and GSL vs the World(side note:I was convinced Inno had ten Premier titles)?
Maru is and has been far from being a bonjwa, he's way closer to GOAT title(relatively).
Think you mean 2013 WCS season 2? Yeah if you put it that way, I don't think 2 GSL is necessarily better than those tournaments that Inno has over him. Seems Inno actually isn't too far off from Maru.
Edit: WCS Season 1
Hm, yes, it's WCS Season 1. The term "global final" is inappropriate, that's BlizzCon; let's say WCS S1 Finals. Also, I'm not sure if OSL can be considered the same as a Code S.
Yeah I think OSL is probably around as prestigious as the WCS Season 1 tbh.
watching the games now and its awesome to see how involved the crowd is getting in the games, sick games so far. Also I find it hilarious how the end of every TL game thread turns into this debate without fail
all those players who are still competing in the GSL didn't just lose the work ethic and habits learned in a kespa team-house. those are lessons that stay with you for life. some players might have lapsed without the kespa training regimen. those who remain in the GSL have carried it with them
I'll start entertaining arguments that winning GSL isn't far more impressive than GSLvsTheWorld/WCS/Blizzcon/WESG when a foreigner that does well at those events dominates a season of GSL. Neeb's round of 4 was one of the easiest paths to round of 4 in Code S history.
is this supposed to be a response to me? I didn't make this argument
all those players who are still competing in the GSL didn't just lose the work ethic and habits learned in a kespa team-house. those are lessons that stay with you for life. some players might have lapsed without the kespa training regimen. those who remain in the GSL have carried it with them
Yeah lets take your word for it rather than what the pros themselves say. Fans have rose tinted glasses for the present.
why is my post is so controversial to you? which part of my post contradicts what the pros say? is there an interview where a pro kr player says the opposite of what I said? it would have to go something like this: "we lost the work ethic and habits that we learned in a kespa team-house. those lessons didn't stay with us for long. those who remain in the GSL have discarded everything they learned in the kespa team-house."
fans have rose-tinted glasses for the present? cool. so why are you saying this to me? did I say something suggesting that I have rose-tinted glasses for the present? if so, why didn't you quote the thing which suggested that I have rose-tinted glasses for the present, instead of the thing you actually quoted? who are you talking to? why am I the recipient of your quote?
On April 15 2019 02:37 Rodya wrote: I'll start entertaining arguments that winning GSL isn't far more impressive than GSLvsTheWorld/WCS/Blizzcon/WESG when a foreigner that does well at those events dominates a season of GSL. Neeb's round of 4 was one of the easiest paths to round of 4 in Code S history.
is this supposed to be a response to me? I didn't make this argument
On April 15 2019 02:37 Rodya wrote: Yeah lets take your word for it rather than what the pros themselves say. Fans have rose tinted glasses for the present.
why is my post controversial to you? which part of my post contradicts what the pros say? is there an interview where a pro kr player says the opposite of what I said? it would have to go something like this: "we lost the work ethic and habits that we learned in a kespa team-house. those lessons didn't stay with us for long. those who remain in the GSL have discarded everything they learned in the kespa team-house."
fans have rose-tinted glasses for the present? cool. so why are you saying this to me? did I say something suggesting that I have rose-tinted glasses for the present? if so, why didn't you quote the thing which suggested that I have rose-tinted glasses for the present, instead of the thing you actually quoted? who are you talking to? why am I the recipient of your quote?
The problem with this discussion is that there isn't a clear answer. We need Maru to dominate even more than winning the most (or maybe 2nd most if you think blizzcon is great) prestigious tournament in sc2 four times in a row to definitively reach a conclusion. Part of that problem is that Serral, the second best player, only participates in 2 major tournaments a year (IEM) and in 2 smaller tournaments (Gsl vs the world, WESG) which makes it even harder to call maru a GOAT or the best.
All that being said, I do think it's the most impressive feat in sc2 history to win 4 GSLs in a row. For me personally, maru's play is also the best play I have ever seen. When other terrans play you see them lose small groups of units because they didn't micro, queue up liberators in poor positions, not watch their minimap for a small amount of times, drop units to their death. When maru plays that doesn't happen. He will never miss anything on the minimap, he will be microing individual marines even in hectic scenarios, he almost always watches his drops perfectly, when he queues up a liberator its in a spot that can't be reached by ground units. It's so perfect. I don't think I've ever seen anyone hit that level of play.
On April 15 2019 05:31 arcane1129 wrote: For the sake of discussion (the dates next to their names are their first and most recent premier semifinal or better finish):
On April 15 2019 05:31 arcane1129 wrote: For the sake of discussion (the dates next to their names are their first and most recent premier semifinal or better finish):
MVP: Jan ’11 – June ‘13 Lifetime: 62.05% Gold: 1x Blizzcon, 3x GSL, 1x GSL World Championship, 1x MLG, 1x IEM, 1x WCS EU, 1x WCG Silver: 2x GSL, 1x Code A Semis: x4
Taeja: Aug ’11 – Nov ’14 Lifetime: 62.91% Gold: 4x Dreamhack, 1x MLG, 2x ASUS ROG, 1x IEM, 3x HSC Silver: 1x Dreamhack, 1x Redbull Battlegrounds Semis: x12
Wow, that just makes innovation look so good in my eyes.
Strong player for such a long time, and over a wide range of tournaments
Well, Innos stats are somewhat inflated. I mean, he is impressive and all but since he switched over from Broodwar his amateur times aren't featured in those statistics. He already was an established pro in Broodwar while the stats of Maru, Life, Taeja include their first steps of walking on the path of progaming. Another problem is that we can hardly compare the winrates that directly because different players played in different tournaments with different difficulty. Maru for example barely ever played outside of Korea while Inno even had a period in foreignerland.
I'm not willing to call Maru the definitive best player right now, he does not play well in Live tournaments, at least relative to his skill level. Although, the only tournament that can really be considered a failure was IEM...
However, I think between 4 GSLs in a row, and all of his Proleague success that Maru has earned the title of best Preparation player of all time. He's so much better when given time to prepare than at live weekend tournaments.
I think some people forget how good Inno got, how quickly and how crazy his peak was after that in GOAT discussions
Career Inno has had peaks and troughs, like all players have. It’s been so long though that it’s hard to put yourself back into that time.
In GOAT discussions I must confess I value absolute peak form in actual play vs peers over longevity in the weighting, or pure tournament wins too.
Peak Inno was absolutely insane, one of his nicknames is ‘the machine’ for a reason for his mechanics relative to the competition.
His TvT was only bad compared to his other matchups, his TvP was amazing and his TvZ for a period was absolutely insane. He brought Brood War style win percentages over to a game thought too volatile to actually be that consistent in winning. Not matches either but sets.
This isn’t meant as a counter to Maru at all, just framing Inno in a certain light or serve as a reminder of quite how far ahead of the field Inno was at one point.
He’s since regressed into the still amazing Inno we see today, who can slump but can win anything on his day, and he’s been there for quite some time. 6 years of Inno as he largely is now makes one view him in a certain light, it’s hard to throw yourself back to 2013 and remember what watching him in that time felt like.
On April 15 2019 11:12 Wombat_NI wrote: I think some people forget how good Inno got, how quickly and how crazy his peak was after that in GOAT discussions
Career Inno has had peaks and troughs, like all players have. It’s been so long though that it’s hard to put yourself back into that time.
In GOAT discussions I must confess I value absolute peak form in actual play vs peers over longevity in the weighting, or pure tournament wins too.
Peak Inno was absolutely insane, one of his nicknames is ‘the machine’ for a reason for his mechanics relative to the competition.
His TvT was only bad compared to his other matchups, his TvP was amazing and his TvZ for a period was absolutely insane. He brought Brood War style win percentages over to a game thought too volatile to actually be that consistent in winning. Not matches either but sets.
This isn’t meant as a counter to Maru at all, just framing Inno in a certain light or serve as a reminder of quite how far ahead of the field Inno was at one point.
He’s since regressed into the still amazing Inno we see today, who can slump but can win anything on his day, and he’s been there for quite some time. 6 years of Inno as he largely is now makes one view him in a certain light, it’s hard to throw yourself back to 2013 and remember what watching him in that time felt like.
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
That's a very high level meme(look who am I supporting against Maru as GOAT and laugh because you might even agree, this time).
The number of premier victories does matter, you guys forget too often winning is never easy; of course, quality of victories has to be valued too.
You perfectly know I think myself that Serral is not in contention for being GOAT; as for TaeJa, his impressive achievements are just almost the perfect mirror of Maru's(more victories, less prestigious. Never winning a Code S, not to mention a korean tournament, is indeed a significant flaw, I don't see TaeJa as GOAT despite holding him in high esteem).
Before this tournament I still had Inno as GOAT but I think it's very hard to argue against 4 GSL victories in a row. As for bonjwa I agree with you though. He's closer to it than anyone has ever been but he just failed to hard at IEM and Blizzcon. If he had won one of those two OR at least reached the semis at both, he would've been definitely the first bonjwa.
Rogue was the first bonjwa. He was near untouchable during those 8 months or so. Shame he didnt also take a GSL, but he was literally 1 tankshot close. No one else would have stopped him at that point in time. Oh and 1 queenblock before that, but there he was only starting his period of domination.
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
That's a very high level meme(look who am I supporting against Maru as GOAT and laugh because you might even agree, this time).
The number of premier victories does matter, you guys forget too often winning is never easy; of course, quality of victories has to be valued too.
You perfectly know I think myself that Serral is not in contention for being GOAT; as for TaeJa, his impressive achievements are just almost the perfect mirror of Maru's(more victories, less prestigious. Never winning a Code S, not to mention a korean tournament, is indeed a significant flaw, I don't see TaeJa as GOAT despite holding him in high esteem).
Before this tournament I still had Inno as GOAT but I think it's very hard to argue against 4 GSL victories in a row. As for bonjwa I agree with you though. He's closer to it than anyone has ever been but he just failed to hard at IEM and Blizzcon. If he had won one of those two OR at least reached the semis at both, he would've been definitely the first bonjwa.
Rogue was the first bonjwa. He was near untouchable during those 8 months or so. Shame he didnt also take a GSL, but he was literally 1 tankshot close. No one else would have stopped him at that point in time. Oh and 1 queenblock before that, but there he was only starting his period of domination.
Being untouchable and losing narrowly dont really go hand in hand, just saying, not that i'm hating on Rogue or anything.
The last 3 TvP series of Maru are very convincing, on a patch that most terrans are really struggling in the MU.
If nothing else best TVP-er of sc2. For me bonjwa has been, and still remains a BW term, not really applicable to sc2 because the scene is so different, and the competition is organized very differently. It was hard enough to define in BW, and many still argue over July and Bisu and whoever.
I don't think anyone can argue against Maru being the best preparation player of all time. As for GOAT, well as other pointed out, he's missing the weekender wins to have a clear headway over others, more well rounded, players like INno.
It's also worth noting that his last 4 GSL wins came at a time where it's not that clear anymore that GSL is that much harder than ST, Katowice or even the old IEM event (or any other big weekender back in the day) It used to be that GSL was harder because the talent pool in Korea was huge and only a fraction of it went oversea or could even play in Korean weekender, but it's not really the same anymore, global or korean weekender are about the same players then the GSL round of 16.
So while it's probably the greatest run we have ever seen in SC2, it does "misses" the wekeender wins. Witch is a recurring problem in his career. He also had fewer weekender try than most since JinAir didn't fly their player out for the longest time. But maybe he fixes that this year we all have a clear GOAT
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
That's a very high level meme(look who am I supporting against Maru as GOAT and laugh because you might even agree, this time).
The number of premier victories does matter, you guys forget too often winning is never easy; of course, quality of victories has to be valued too.
You perfectly know I think myself that Serral is not in contention for being GOAT; as for TaeJa, his impressive achievements are just almost the perfect mirror of Maru's(more victories, less prestigious. Never winning a Code S, not to mention a korean tournament, is indeed a significant flaw, I don't see TaeJa as GOAT despite holding him in high esteem).
Before this tournament I still had Inno as GOAT but I think it's very hard to argue against 4 GSL victories in a row. As for bonjwa I agree with you though. He's closer to it than anyone has ever been but he just failed to hard at IEM and Blizzcon. If he had won one of those two OR at least reached the semis at both, he would've been definitely the first bonjwa.
Rogue was the first bonjwa. He was near untouchable during those 8 months or so. Shame he didnt also take a GSL, but he was literally 1 tankshot close. No one else would have stopped him at that point in time. Oh and 1 queenblock before that, but there he was only starting his period of domination.
No. Just no. He was "untouchable" and still lost? Wait what? Also no GSL title. Using your criteria for bonjwa means Serral is a bonjwa as well and you of all people would hate on that so much.
There is no sc2 bonjwa (yet). If anyone, Maru has a shot. He needs some weekenders and at least one Blizzcon title for that IMO
I think Maru is probably the best player I've seen but Taeja is still my favourite. There was something about the skills he brought that no-one else really had at the time. Also the type of tournament he chose to play in (like those IPL ones that were amazing) probably helped.
On April 15 2019 05:31 arcane1129 wrote: For the sake of discussion (the dates next to their names are their first and most recent premier semifinal or better finish):
On April 15 2019 11:12 Wombat_NI wrote: I think some people forget how good Inno got, how quickly and how crazy his peak was after that in GOAT discussions
Career Inno has had peaks and troughs, like all players have. It’s been so long though that it’s hard to put yourself back into that time.
In GOAT discussions I must confess I value absolute peak form in actual play vs peers over longevity in the weighting, or pure tournament wins too.
Peak Inno was absolutely insane, one of his nicknames is ‘the machine’ for a reason for his mechanics relative to the competition.
His TvT was only bad compared to his other matchups, his TvP was amazing and his TvZ for a period was absolutely insane. He brought Brood War style win percentages over to a game thought too volatile to actually be that consistent in winning. Not matches either but sets.
This isn’t meant as a counter to Maru at all, just framing Inno in a certain light or serve as a reminder of quite how far ahead of the field Inno was at one point.
He’s since regressed into the still amazing Inno we see today, who can slump but can win anything on his day, and he’s been there for quite some time. 6 years of Inno as he largely is now makes one view him in a certain light, it’s hard to throw yourself back to 2013 and remember what watching him in that time felt like.
Maru's win percantage over 2018 is similar to Flash's, somebody did the math. Just sayin.
How very dare you bring that memory up. Yes I’m as impressed watching Maru now as I was Inno then
If Inno’s wrists had exploded when he was at his absolute peak vs the rest of the scene, he might be thought of as better by some than vs how his career progressed subsequently.
On April 15 2019 20:45 Jockmcplop wrote: I think Maru is probably the best player I've seen but Taeja is still my favourite. There was something about the skills he brought that no-one else really had at the time. Also the type of tournament he chose to play in (like those IPL ones that were amazing) probably helped.
Ah, glorious times indeed.
That IPL Team League was insane, still close to the most impressed I’ve ever been watching the game, and hyped. Granted it was unique in that it was a weekender and a team league too, so a team league without so much prep being possibly, kinda interesting.
It’s hard enough to win an individual weekender where BO wins can still be a factor in Bo3s, crushing it in Bo1s that consistently across all 3 matchups was pretty nuts to watch.
On April 15 2019 11:12 Wombat_NI wrote: I think some people forget how good Inno got, how quickly and how crazy his peak was after that in GOAT discussions
Career Inno has had peaks and troughs, like all players have. It’s been so long though that it’s hard to put yourself back into that time.
In GOAT discussions I must confess I value absolute peak form in actual play vs peers over longevity in the weighting, or pure tournament wins too.
Peak Inno was absolutely insane, one of his nicknames is ‘the machine’ for a reason for his mechanics relative to the competition.
His TvT was only bad compared to his other matchups, his TvP was amazing and his TvZ for a period was absolutely insane. He brought Brood War style win percentages over to a game thought too volatile to actually be that consistent in winning. Not matches either but sets.
This isn’t meant as a counter to Maru at all, just framing Inno in a certain light or serve as a reminder of quite how far ahead of the field Inno was at one point.
He’s since regressed into the still amazing Inno we see today, who can slump but can win anything on his day, and he’s been there for quite some time. 6 years of Inno as he largely is now makes one view him in a certain light, it’s hard to throw yourself back to 2013 and remember what watching him in that time felt like.
Maru's win percantage over 2018 is similar to Flash's, somebody did the math. Just sayin.
How very dare you bring that memory up. Yes I’m as impressed watching Maru now as I was Inno then
If Inno’s wrists had exploded when he was at his absolute peak vs the rest of the scene, he might be thought of as better by some than vs how his career progressed subsequently.
It's quite interesting to compare these two, Inno is more of wave function, when he dominates he dominates everything but then he's going into a downfall and when he's down there he's really down. While Maru is like a straight line with slight variance(up or down), he's very consistent but never as dominant as Inno was. On the other hand he usually doesn't fall that down as Inno does.
omg y r ppl still crying. maru = bonjwa goat LEGENDARY GOD STATUS
he has been playing since WOL, and 2018 wasn't the only year he was winning.
mvp is #2 because he won despite his shattered wrists, in fact that would keep him at #1 in my book, for being a massive underdog. each win of his is worth 100 wins of anyone elses. but if we're just going by wins to determine GOAT BONJWAS, then yeah maru is #1.
NO ONE WILL EVER REPLICATE WHAT MARU HAS DONE. in fact the only one who can beat maru's record of 4 x gsl in a row at this point is.... MARU himself. OF COURSE, THERE IS A HUGE ELEMENT OF LUCK INVOLVED. the luck being - will maru have to face Inno, TY or SOS, the only people who could threaten him in a GSL? if not, next season is a wrap as well.
On April 16 2019 00:11 fishjie wrote: NO ONE WILL EVER REPLICATE WHAT MARU HAS DONE. in fact the only one who can beat maru's record of 4 x gsl in a row at this point is.... MARU himself.
cmon man, we all know GSL will be cancelled soon. No need to rub it in tho.
On April 16 2019 00:11 fishjie wrote: NO ONE WILL EVER REPLICATE WHAT MARU HAS DONE. in fact the only one who can beat maru's record of 4 x gsl in a row at this point is.... MARU himself.
cmon man, we all know GSL will be cancelled soon. No need to rub it in tho.
even though i agree with you, that's not where i was going with it lol. i mean even if gsl doesn't shut down, no ones gonna do a 4peat like maru, only maru can top that record next season.
On April 16 2019 07:08 Wombat_NI wrote: Methinks we need a one stop shop GOAT thread, I personally love the topic but it does seem to crop up in every other thread these days.
On April 16 2019 07:08 Wombat_NI wrote: Methinks we need a one stop shop GOAT thread, I personally love the topic but it does seem to crop up in every other thread these days.