On April 14 2019 20:42 Xitah wrote: Maru might be the GOAT in SC 2, but the decline in Korean SC is undeniable. Maru is going to win 6, 7, 8 or more GSLs. Don't worry guys, the decline is going to be obvious with every victory and with every post about the closing gap between the Korean and the foreign scene. As the top Korean declines and the foreign scene grows, the gap will eventually disappear.
On April 14 2019 19:51 raff100 wrote: a win in 2019 is nowhere as hard as a win in 2014 ... competition is not remotely close.
were you watching the same games as me in 2014?? the level of play is now substantially higher than in 2014. the reason why you just don't see so many sick micro moments and incredible marine splits is because this style of play has been patched out of the meta. mass marine / mine vs lingbanemuta isn't even possible anymore. you can't drop zerg all game long. tvz in 2014 was lightning fast and more impressive to watch. tvp in 2014, same story. terran could do loads of multi-pronged drops, attacking 3 or 4 places at the same time. now because of the way the game has been patched, terran must keep his entire army together in 1 force. the competition is still just as fierce
You can't compare the games in the vacuum as the players developped with the game. Back in 2014 the top 32 players of the world were in Korea and had the Korean citizenship. I dare to say top 50 players of the world were Koreans, but I give you 1 or 2 foreigners in it for the funs.
In this stacked competition and the volatility of the game it wouldn't be possible to be this dominating as sooner or later somebody will get you. GSL RO32 was pretty stacked back then.
That being said we need to mention Maru was a monster in Proleague back then... so it's not like he was bad or something.
I'm not sure if you are disputing my point or not. if you are, how do you back up the claim that the skill level was higher in 2014?
GSL RO8 was more competitive in 2014, but not because the skill level was higher in my opinion. the skill difference between Life, Rain, Innovation, soO, Zest and Maru was much tighter than the current RO8 line-up.
you say the competition was more stacked? I disagree. there was approximately the same quantity of doomed RO32 last-place finishers back then - think Ruin, Sora, Avenge, TAiLS, Terminator, and all those other hopeless B-teamers who got 4-0'd in their groups.
On April 14 2019 20:41 Pandain wrote: Absolutely incredible. I think Maru is the GOAT but I could understand Innovation still being #1.
Honestly MVP is probably not even top 3 GOAT, it's just hard to make the argument when he played during a time there were like 8 GSLs and 20 other tournaments during each year. His story is incredibly (best ever?) and he is definitely one of the greatest ever, but I think if other players had reached their peak during similar tournaments ecosystem environments his records would have got broken a long time ago.
How can MVP not even be top 3?
I have to remind you Maru was already playing at the time and it's not like he couldn't technically win because he was too young(he only slightly younger than Life).
Wtf i wanted to read about brilliant moves in today games, but every topic is about goat or not a goat. There were top players in history and you will never reach an agreement who is the best. stop it.
Maru used battlecrusers very well, in my experience BC are very bad vs air toss as tempest can fly faster than BC can taleport. I was sure classic will get easy win when maru started his transition.
I thought that the G5L trophy was in some CEO's office/house now?
By the way notice how Maru's preperation revolved around surviving Classic's preperation - and Classic still outprepared him. Maru is not a "preparation" player and this series just makes it all the more obvious.
On April 14 2019 23:27 Rodya wrote: I thought that the G5L trophy was in some CEO's office/house now?
By the way notice how Maru's preperation revolved around surviving Classic's preperation - and Classic still outprepared him. Maru is not a "preparation" player and this series just makes it all the more obvious.
That's true, he didn't bring to the table tailored builds to counter Classic's strats, it was actually the opposite. However, how do you solve the paradox of Maru winning almost only preparation tournaments? He might not prepare for specifical builds but evidently he thrives when given the time to train for a single matchup or opponent at least.
It might be the last time we see Classic in Code S, he will be missed; he could still retire in triumph if he wins the upcoming Super Tournament.
Maru was by far the superior player today, g5 was interesting due to BCs(and maybe Classic's build in g4 was nice too) but overall the series were more onesided in his favour than the score would suggest. He could deserve #1 on a Power Ranking, but would he really be the player you bet on at the start of any given tournament? There is no clear best player in the world at the moment.
The sc2 popularity decline in Korea is obvious. But explaining the Maru-Serral domination with the "oh the sc2 decline is terrible I miss the old good days" is just nonsense. I love MVP or Polt but cmon, its simply natural that the skill lvl of the players is higher nowadays than 7 or 8 years ago.
Back when Stephano was the korean-killer he won NASL3 defeating Alicia or IGN3 defeating Lucky. Naniwa was another foreign hope that was casually defeated by Stardust, Sen or Leenock. Back in 2015 Polt vs Hydra was the top-notch match in non-korean sc2 scene. Was GSL way more stacked during MVP prime? Sure. But google and see the brackets and the caliber of the players.
I miss the old days of sc2 for sure. From an spectator point of view it was so much fun, so many players, new blood in our scene, etc. But the less players algoritm as main explanation for Serral and Maru success? I don't buy it. Not only the tier1 players are crazy good nowadays, the common non-exceptional player is better too. The "oh sc2 competition is lackluster" lecture of Maru's 4 consecutive GSL is just partial and insubstantial, ignores so many key facts.
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
That's a very high level meme(look who am I supporting against Maru as GOAT and laugh because you might even agree, this time).
The number of premier victories does matter, you guys forget too often winning is never easy; of course, quality of victories has to be valued too.
You perfectly know I think myself that Serral is not in contention for being GOAT; as for TaeJa, his impressive achievements are just almost the perfect mirror of Maru's(more victories, less prestigious. Never winning a Code S, not to mention a korean tournament, is indeed a significant flaw, I don't see TaeJa as GOAT despite holding him in high esteem).
Before this tournament I still had Inno as GOAT but I think it's very hard to argue against 4 GSL victories in a row. As for bonjwa I agree with you though. He's closer to it than anyone has ever been but he just failed to hard at IEM and Blizzcon. If he had won one of those two OR at least reached the semis at both, he would've been definitely the first bonjwa.
people need to take off their rose-tinted glasses. during hots, I saw some very high profile koreans and euro pros (major tournament winners) lose to amateur ladder heroes (high master, low GM). it was rare enough... but it happened a hell of a lot more often than now. some of those amateurs that still play the game and are 5.3k on the ladder. chinks were present in the armour back then.
when people hark back to the good old kespa days, they argue that the presence of kespa team-houses raised the skill level in korea. this is true... but it is wrong to say that kespa's disbanding LOWERED the skill level across the board. all those players who are still competing in the GSL didn't just lose the work ethic and habits learned in a kespa team-house. those are lessons that stay with you for life. some players might have lapsed without the kespa training regimen. those who remain in the GSL have carried it with them
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
yea look at taeja for exmple
he did all of that during a time when talent was deep and terran was weak. what a monster
fucking saved
in that hots era, Terran went almost a year without winning a single premier tournament. the drough wouldve been so much longer if it werent for taeja
it's like 2018 protoss. where they won 2/15 premier tournaments (probably fewere this year since Blizzard keeps nerfing them )
2018 Protoss won more money than Terran despite Maru winning that much money :o, so don’t act like they were weak in 2018 or something.
4th GSL in a row is so incredible I don’t have many words anymore, even though the competition is a bit less stiff (at least we have less people throwing games on purpose tho!) it’s an incredible domination. Prime really recruited some of the finest terrans in StarCraft 2. MKP / Polt / ByuN / Maru...
Classic preparation was top notch but he is just inferior at the moment, the age difference was probably too much to overcome I guess.
On April 14 2019 19:57 Charoisaur wrote: I agree with Xainon, Code S is worth nothing right now because the best player doesn't compete in it and since Maru is too afraid to get a VISA and play in the more prestigious competition he has a hard time to catch up to the real GOATs. The GOAT is still TaeJa since he has won the most tournaments - Maru has now caught up to Serral in the GOAT ranking with 7 premier victories but according to my criteria he isn't anywhere close to GOAT.
That's a very high level meme(look who am I supporting against Maru as GOAT and laugh because you might even agree, this time).
The number of premier victories does matter, you guys forget too often winning is never easy; of course, quality of victories has to be valued too.
You perfectly know I think myself that Serral is not in contention for being GOAT; as for TaeJa, his impressive achievements are just almost the perfect mirror of Maru's(more victories, less prestigious. Never winning a Code S, not to mention a korean tournament, is indeed a significant flaw, I don't see TaeJa as GOAT despite holding him in high esteem).
Before this tournament I still had Inno as GOAT but I think it's very hard to argue against 4 GSL victories in a row. As for bonjwa I agree with you though. He's closer to it than anyone has ever been but he just failed to hard at IEM and Blizzcon. If he had won one of those two OR at least reached the semis at both, he would've been definitely the first bonjwa.
Ah, the code S bias is just too strong, I see; so one Code S and one OSL are better than WCS Global finals, two IEM and GSL vs the World(side note:I was convinced Inno had ten Premier titles)?
Maru is and has been far from being a bonjwa, he's way closer to GOAT title(relatively).
EPT
