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On November 13 2017 11:44 YourFavoriteTerran wrote:
My friends and I tuned in for a few moments but found it hard to enjoy it. My buddy said it best- "It's hard to enjoy the tournament because the patch clearly destroyed terran. Should one race really be completely butchered just because 2-3 terrans are the best in the world?". Can't say I disagree.
It is a design patch, not a balance patch. There are some flaws in balance, but they didn't nerf Terran into the ground because of INnoVation. Had they been making balance changes, Zerg would have been nerfed based on the last few months.
It is also unfair to really read too much into balance considering the huge variations in skill and preparation from the players. If we see broken things like BL/Infestor winning at a Korean tournament in a month or two, then yeah, raging would be a lot more reasonable.
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On November 13 2017 11:44 YourFavoriteTerran wrote:
My friends and I tuned in for a few moments but found it hard to enjoy it. My buddy said it best- "It's hard to enjoy the tournament because the patch clearly destroyed terran. Should one race really be completely butchered just because 2-3 terrans are the best in the world?". Can't say I disagree.
It's not that they butchered Terran. They have made design changes that aren't even live yet.
There will be balance patches after the release.
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On November 13 2017 07:57 Shathe wrote:
The best thing for me was that Zest completely slaughtered Stats. I think the changes will favor his style much.
I don't want to read too much into these games, however it seems like they are evenly matched in terms of mechanics, but this patch plays a bit more to Zests strenghts which have always been his decision-making, positioning and engagments
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Czech Republic12131 Posts
On November 13 2017 11:44 YourFavoriteTerran wrote:
My friends and I tuned in for a few moments but found it hard to enjoy it. My buddy said it best- "It's hard to enjoy the tournament because the patch clearly destroyed terran. Should one race really be completely butchered just because 2-3 terrans are the best in the world?". Can't say I disagree.
You do realize this tournament had exactly 1 good Terran player and this Terran player met a really strong Protoss in the RO8? The next good Terran to aLive was jjakji and while I don't want to be mean - he's nowhere near Stats, Zest or Solar.(the 2 latter kicked him out of the tourney BTW)
C'mon, based on this tourney we can talk about PvZ balance and how it affects mirror matches and that's, sadly, all.
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On November 13 2017 18:02 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2017 11:44 YourFavoriteTerran wrote:
My friends and I tuned in for a few moments but found it hard to enjoy it. My buddy said it best- "It's hard to enjoy the tournament because the patch clearly destroyed terran. Should one race really be completely butchered just because 2-3 terrans are the best in the world?". Can't say I disagree. You do realize this tournament had exactly 1 good Terran player and this Terran player met a really strong Protoss in the RO8? The next good Terran to aLive was jjakji and while I don't want to be mean - he's nowhere near Stats, Zest or Solar.(the 2 latter kicked him out of the tourney BTW) C'mon, based on this tourney we can talk about PvZ balance and how it affects mirror matches and that's, sadly, all.
this tournament alone doesn't indicate that terran is weak but pro players from all 3 races agree that terran is to weak.
Also when 1 race gets only nerfs while the other two get mostly buffs it's clear they will be struggling post-patch assuming the matchups were balanced before.
I don't think we have to wait for GSL to realize that terran is weak.
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Czech Republic12131 Posts
On November 13 2017 18:29 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2017 18:02 deacon.frost wrote:On November 13 2017 11:44 YourFavoriteTerran wrote:
My friends and I tuned in for a few moments but found it hard to enjoy it. My buddy said it best- "It's hard to enjoy the tournament because the patch clearly destroyed terran. Should one race really be completely butchered just because 2-3 terrans are the best in the world?". Can't say I disagree. You do realize this tournament had exactly 1 good Terran player and this Terran player met a really strong Protoss in the RO8? The next good Terran to aLive was jjakji and while I don't want to be mean - he's nowhere near Stats, Zest or Solar.(the 2 latter kicked him out of the tourney BTW) C'mon, based on this tourney we can talk about PvZ balance and how it affects mirror matches and that's, sadly, all. this tournament alone doesn't indicate that terran is weak but pro players from all 3 races agree that terran is to weak. Also when 1 race gets only nerfs while the other two get mostly buffs it's clear they will be struggling post-patch assuming the matchups were balanced before. I don't think we have to wait for GSL to realize that terran is weak.
Yes, in this way I agree.
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On November 13 2017 18:29 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2017 18:02 deacon.frost wrote:On November 13 2017 11:44 YourFavoriteTerran wrote:
My friends and I tuned in for a few moments but found it hard to enjoy it. My buddy said it best- "It's hard to enjoy the tournament because the patch clearly destroyed terran. Should one race really be completely butchered just because 2-3 terrans are the best in the world?". Can't say I disagree. You do realize this tournament had exactly 1 good Terran player and this Terran player met a really strong Protoss in the RO8? The next good Terran to aLive was jjakji and while I don't want to be mean - he's nowhere near Stats, Zest or Solar.(the 2 latter kicked him out of the tourney BTW) C'mon, based on this tourney we can talk about PvZ balance and how it affects mirror matches and that's, sadly, all. this tournament alone doesn't indicate that terran is weak but pro players from all 3 races agree that terran is to weak. Also when 1 race gets only nerfs while the other two get mostly buffs it's clear they will be struggling post-patch assuming the matchups were balanced before. I don't think we have to wait for GSL to realize that terran is weak.
You would be correct except that Terran got buffs, and Protoss got nerfs as well.
It would be more correct to say that both P and T got buffs and nerfs. The removal of the MSC is a massive nerf to early game defense, and the SB only partially makes up for it.
However, the SB in mid game combined with the stalker change is a buff as well as the new chrono.
I still say it's too early to change anything major aside from how fast oracles come out.
Besides, at last year's patch when Protoss got the short end of the stick, people advocated waiting for the meta to settle.
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On November 13 2017 19:34 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2017 18:29 Charoisaur wrote:On November 13 2017 18:02 deacon.frost wrote:On November 13 2017 11:44 YourFavoriteTerran wrote:
My friends and I tuned in for a few moments but found it hard to enjoy it. My buddy said it best- "It's hard to enjoy the tournament because the patch clearly destroyed terran. Should one race really be completely butchered just because 2-3 terrans are the best in the world?". Can't say I disagree. You do realize this tournament had exactly 1 good Terran player and this Terran player met a really strong Protoss in the RO8? The next good Terran to aLive was jjakji and while I don't want to be mean - he's nowhere near Stats, Zest or Solar.(the 2 latter kicked him out of the tourney BTW) C'mon, based on this tourney we can talk about PvZ balance and how it affects mirror matches and that's, sadly, all. this tournament alone doesn't indicate that terran is weak but pro players from all 3 races agree that terran is to weak. Also when 1 race gets only nerfs while the other two get mostly buffs it's clear they will be struggling post-patch assuming the matchups were balanced before. I don't think we have to wait for GSL to realize that terran is weak. You would be correct except that Terran got buffs, and Protoss got nerfs as well. It would be more correct to say that both P and T got buffs and nerfs. The removal of the MSC is a massive nerf to early game defense, and the SB only partially makes up for it. However, the SB in mid game combined with the stalker change is a buff as well as the new chrono. I still say it's too early to change anything major aside from how fast oracles come out. Besides, at last year's patch when Protoss got the short end of the stick, people advocated waiting for the meta to settle.
I realize that the MSC removal is a big nerf but most people seem to think the new chronoboost + shield battery + stalker buff more than make up for it.
Which buff did terran get that is significant?
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i already miss hsc 
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How much money was raised for HSC XVII?
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On November 13 2017 19:51 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2017 19:34 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 13 2017 18:29 Charoisaur wrote:On November 13 2017 18:02 deacon.frost wrote:On November 13 2017 11:44 YourFavoriteTerran wrote:
My friends and I tuned in for a few moments but found it hard to enjoy it. My buddy said it best- "It's hard to enjoy the tournament because the patch clearly destroyed terran. Should one race really be completely butchered just because 2-3 terrans are the best in the world?". Can't say I disagree. You do realize this tournament had exactly 1 good Terran player and this Terran player met a really strong Protoss in the RO8? The next good Terran to aLive was jjakji and while I don't want to be mean - he's nowhere near Stats, Zest or Solar.(the 2 latter kicked him out of the tourney BTW) C'mon, based on this tourney we can talk about PvZ balance and how it affects mirror matches and that's, sadly, all. this tournament alone doesn't indicate that terran is weak but pro players from all 3 races agree that terran is to weak. Also when 1 race gets only nerfs while the other two get mostly buffs it's clear they will be struggling post-patch assuming the matchups were balanced before. I don't think we have to wait for GSL to realize that terran is weak. You would be correct except that Terran got buffs, and Protoss got nerfs as well. It would be more correct to say that both P and T got buffs and nerfs. The removal of the MSC is a massive nerf to early game defense, and the SB only partially makes up for it. However, the SB in mid game combined with the stalker change is a buff as well as the new chrono. I still say it's too early to change anything major aside from how fast oracles come out. Besides, at last year's patch when Protoss got the short end of the stick, people advocated waiting for the meta to settle. I realize that the MSC removal is a big nerf but most people seem to think the new chronoboost + shield battery + stalker buff more than make up for it. Which buff did terran get that is significant?
No race got changed as much as Protoss, that is true. But the issue isn't that Zerg and Protoss got buffed while Terran got nerfed.
Terran did receive some token buffs as well as a raven redesign. The main nerf that Terran received was the mine nerf, and I don't think it's significant enough to drop T winrates or make them by far the worse race.
The SB, as I've maintained, is bad because it scales too well in the mid-late game. Because you can spam SBs, you can make base defense way more powerful than it should be.
However, I have also maintained that the SB is not sufficient to protect Protoss against early pressure. It doesn't kill the units, which is what Protoss needs, and stalkers are fairly expensive early game units even though they have survivability and damage now.
I think the other issue is that we had no really high level Terran at HSC. Some things that seem op may not necessarily be op until the best of the best take a solid crack at it. Certainly, the new chrono + oracle might need a tweak. But perhaps it just requires a couple months of experimentation to deal with the other Protoss changes. For instance, if P is building more stalkers and SBs, perhaps ghosts could be mixed in. You drop the ghost, emp, and then wipe out the defending forces because the SB has a max of 100 energy.
Even though it was annoying seeing Protoss with low winrates in January, with minimal tweaking, Protoss still did become about even with Terran, which I think needs to happen here. And ultimately, if things are overpowered, then they can be changed.
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Austria24422 Posts
I do think shield batteries are sufficient early game defense, perhaps even a bit too strong/cheap at the moment. And I generally agree that Terran will need a bit of help to keep up, but we're talking about a patch that isn't even live yet. It'll be figured out soon.
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On November 13 2017 22:08 Olli wrote:
I do think shield batteries are sufficient early game defense, perhaps even a bit too strong/cheap at the moment. And I generally agree that Terran will need a bit of help to keep up, but we're talking about a patch that isn't even live yet. It'll be figured out soon.
Yeah it's hard to say what Terran needs until we see Inno, TY, Gumiho and Co play, but they need something. I'm confident that it will be fine before WCS 2018 though.
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On November 13 2017 20:52 FrkFrJss wrote:
Certainly, the new chrono + oracle might need a tweak.
How do you make that tweak without reverting the chrono change or completely destroying stargate openers?
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Austria24422 Posts
On November 13 2017 23:46 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2017 20:52 FrkFrJss wrote:
Certainly, the new chrono + oracle might need a tweak. How do you make that tweak without reverting the chrono change or completely destroying stargate openers?
Surely you can have oracles build a bit slower without completely ruining SG openings.
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Czech Republic12131 Posts
On November 13 2017 23:57 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2017 23:46 Boggyb wrote:On November 13 2017 20:52 FrkFrJss wrote:
Certainly, the new chrono + oracle might need a tweak. How do you make that tweak without reverting the chrono change or completely destroying stargate openers? Surely you can have oracles build a bit slower without completely ruining SG openings.
Is this really that big? I mean - if you see a Protoss stacking energy do you know what's coming or do they have another possibilities? (let's assume T hasn't seen any tech building that would be good for CB)
I didn't catch any PvT so I have no clue TBH, being curious.
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United States97276 Posts
Zest approaching TaeJa levels of greatness
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On November 14 2017 02:00 Shellshock wrote:
Zest approaching TaeJa levels of greatness
Approaching but will never reach. Because he never played for TL
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On November 14 2017 02:09 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2017 02:00 Shellshock wrote:
Zest approaching TaeJa levels of greatness Approaching but will never reach. Because he never played for TL
Liquid`Zest when?
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On November 13 2017 20:52 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2017 19:51 Charoisaur wrote:On November 13 2017 19:34 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 13 2017 18:29 Charoisaur wrote:On November 13 2017 18:02 deacon.frost wrote:On November 13 2017 11:44 YourFavoriteTerran wrote:
My friends and I tuned in for a few moments but found it hard to enjoy it. My buddy said it best- "It's hard to enjoy the tournament because the patch clearly destroyed terran. Should one race really be completely butchered just because 2-3 terrans are the best in the world?". Can't say I disagree. You do realize this tournament had exactly 1 good Terran player and this Terran player met a really strong Protoss in the RO8? The next good Terran to aLive was jjakji and while I don't want to be mean - he's nowhere near Stats, Zest or Solar.(the 2 latter kicked him out of the tourney BTW) C'mon, based on this tourney we can talk about PvZ balance and how it affects mirror matches and that's, sadly, all. this tournament alone doesn't indicate that terran is weak but pro players from all 3 races agree that terran is to weak. Also when 1 race gets only nerfs while the other two get mostly buffs it's clear they will be struggling post-patch assuming the matchups were balanced before. I don't think we have to wait for GSL to realize that terran is weak. You would be correct except that Terran got buffs, and Protoss got nerfs as well. It would be more correct to say that both P and T got buffs and nerfs. The removal of the MSC is a massive nerf to early game defense, and the SB only partially makes up for it. However, the SB in mid game combined with the stalker change is a buff as well as the new chrono. I still say it's too early to change anything major aside from how fast oracles come out. Besides, at last year's patch when Protoss got the short end of the stick, people advocated waiting for the meta to settle. I realize that the MSC removal is a big nerf but most people seem to think the new chronoboost + shield battery + stalker buff more than make up for it. Which buff did terran get that is significant? No race got changed as much as Protoss, that is true. But the issue isn't that Zerg and Protoss got buffed while Terran got nerfed. Terran did receive some token buffs as well as a raven redesign. The main nerf that Terran received was the mine nerf, and I don't think it's significant enough to drop T winrates or make them by far the worse race. The SB, as I've maintained, is bad because it scales too well in the mid-late game. Because you can spam SBs, you can make base defense way more powerful than it should be. However, I have also maintained that the SB is not sufficient to protect Protoss against early pressure. It doesn't kill the units, which is what Protoss needs, and stalkers are fairly expensive early game units even though they have survivability and damage now. I think the other issue is that we had no really high level Terran at HSC. Some things that seem op may not necessarily be op until the best of the best take a solid crack at it. Certainly, the new chrono + oracle might need a tweak. But perhaps it just requires a couple months of experimentation to deal with the other Protoss changes. For instance, if P is building more stalkers and SBs, perhaps ghosts could be mixed in. You drop the ghost, emp, and then wipe out the defending forces because the SB has a max of 100 energy. Even though it was annoying seeing Protoss with low winrates in January, with minimal tweaking, Protoss still did become about even with Terran, which I think needs to happen here. And ultimately, if things are overpowered, then they can be changed.
Typing stuff doesn't make it true. The fact that terrans couldnt qualify and then got 3-0'd every single round should be a red alert that the balance team is failing. HSC last year had more than 15,000 people watching. This was probably the first SC2 tournament I can think of that I literally just turned off and stopped caring about. I don't know who won, doesn't really matter because the patch is clearly developed by someone who can't play terran and doesn't know high level gameplay.
we didn't get to see it here, but if this 'balance' patch doesn't get fixed, my friends and I have practiced a 2-3 nexus early forge chronoboost on armor. If you don't die in 1 minute after starting it, you win the game almost no matter what because terran will be on +1 maybe halfway to 2 and protoss will already be on 3.
One race should not be completely gutted and butchered just because 2-3 people on the planet are on another level than everyone else.
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EPT
