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On September 09 2017 15:47 ParksonVN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying Inno's GSL titles are much more impressive since they are spread out in a much longer period of time and that shows how consistently good he is. Let's just imagine if there are 4 GSLs every year like the old MVP days, Inno would have won a hell of a lot of GSL titles.
In the Mvp days there were like 7 GSLs per year
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On September 09 2017 15:46 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 15:41 Charoisaur wrote:On September 09 2017 15:37 DieuCure wrote:On September 09 2017 15:36 Sakat wrote:On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying And with the GSL vs World, he has the same amount of GSL titles I'm waiting for Olli answer Inno's wins aren't legit because he just wins because of terran imbalance and has a healthy body. Also he didn't contribute anything to the metagame unlike TaeJa and Mvp which makes him worth less. Maybe Innovation is SC2 version of Flash. No creative plays and no meta-changing builds or tactics. But he does everything precisely and never misses a beat and knows how to take full advantage of Terran's strengths.
ByuN made that exact comparison in an interview. Inno is like Flash, he said.
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On September 09 2017 15:49 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 15:47 ParksonVN wrote:On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying Inno's GSL titles are much more impressive since they are spread out in a much longer period of time and that shows how consistently good he is. Let's just imagine if there are 4 GSLs every year like the old MVP days, Inno would have won a hell of a lot of GSL titles. In the Mvp days there were like 7 GSLs per year
Yes but the top 16 lvl was so so much higher in 2010-2011, the highest skilled era
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On September 09 2017 15:46 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 15:41 Charoisaur wrote:On September 09 2017 15:37 DieuCure wrote:On September 09 2017 15:36 Sakat wrote:On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying And with the GSL vs World, he has the same amount of GSL titles I'm waiting for Olli answer Inno's wins aren't legit because he just wins because of terran imbalance and has a healthy body. Also he didn't contribute anything to the metagame unlike TaeJa and Mvp which makes him worth less. Maybe Innovation is SC2 version of Flash. No creative plays and no meta-changing builds or tactics. But he does everything precisely and never misses a beat and knows how to take full advantage of Terran's strengths.
nah, Inno actually is the grandfather of Terran's meta tbh, he invented greedy 3CC vs Zergs that became Terran's gold build vs Zerg in HOTS, agressive mech which made Terran looked imba in TvZ at the end of HOTS as well.
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On September 09 2017 15:52 DieuCure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 15:49 Charoisaur wrote:On September 09 2017 15:47 ParksonVN wrote:On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying Inno's GSL titles are much more impressive since they are spread out in a much longer period of time and that shows how consistently good he is. Let's just imagine if there are 4 GSLs every year like the old MVP days, Inno would have won a hell of a lot of GSL titles. In the Mvp days there were like 7 GSLs per year Yes but the top 16 lvl was so so much higher in 2010-2011, the highest skilled era
Oh boy, i sure hope you're being sarcastic.
On September 09 2017 15:52 ParksonVN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 15:46 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 09 2017 15:41 Charoisaur wrote:On September 09 2017 15:37 DieuCure wrote:On September 09 2017 15:36 Sakat wrote:On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying And with the GSL vs World, he has the same amount of GSL titles I'm waiting for Olli answer Inno's wins aren't legit because he just wins because of terran imbalance and has a healthy body. Also he didn't contribute anything to the metagame unlike TaeJa and Mvp which makes him worth less. Maybe Innovation is SC2 version of Flash. No creative plays and no meta-changing builds or tactics. But he does everything precisely and never misses a beat and knows how to take full advantage of Terran's strengths. nah, Inno actually is the grandfather of Terran's meta tbh, he invented greedy 3CC vs Zergs that became Terran's gold build vs Zerg in HOTS, agressive mech which made Terran looked imba in TvZ at the end of HOTS as well.
Do you mean turtle into raven mech? Yeah he was the only one able to pull it off against the best Zergs.
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On September 09 2017 15:53 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 15:52 DieuCure wrote:On September 09 2017 15:49 Charoisaur wrote:On September 09 2017 15:47 ParksonVN wrote:On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying Inno's GSL titles are much more impressive since they are spread out in a much longer period of time and that shows how consistently good he is. Let's just imagine if there are 4 GSLs every year like the old MVP days, Inno would have won a hell of a lot of GSL titles. In the Mvp days there were like 7 GSLs per year Yes but the top 16 lvl was so so much higher in 2010-2011, the highest skilled era Oh boy, i sure hope you're being sarcastic.
Ofc he is, cure didn't play back then
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On September 09 2017 15:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 15:53 Morbidius wrote:On September 09 2017 15:52 DieuCure wrote:On September 09 2017 15:49 Charoisaur wrote:On September 09 2017 15:47 ParksonVN wrote:On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying Inno's GSL titles are much more impressive since they are spread out in a much longer period of time and that shows how consistently good he is. Let's just imagine if there are 4 GSLs every year like the old MVP days, Inno would have won a hell of a lot of GSL titles. In the Mvp days there were like 7 GSLs per year Yes but the top 16 lvl was so so much higher in 2010-2011, the highest skilled era Oh boy, i sure hope you're being sarcastic. Ofc he is, cure didn't play back then
Highest skilled era was GSL season 2 2016. Nothing comes close.
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When is proleague final btw ?
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On September 09 2017 15:53 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 15:52 DieuCure wrote:On September 09 2017 15:49 Charoisaur wrote:On September 09 2017 15:47 ParksonVN wrote:On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying Inno's GSL titles are much more impressive since they are spread out in a much longer period of time and that shows how consistently good he is. Let's just imagine if there are 4 GSLs every year like the old MVP days, Inno would have won a hell of a lot of GSL titles. In the Mvp days there were like 7 GSLs per year Yes but the top 16 lvl was so so much higher in 2010-2011, the highest skilled era Oh boy, i sure hope you're being sarcastic. Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 15:52 ParksonVN wrote:On September 09 2017 15:46 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 09 2017 15:41 Charoisaur wrote:On September 09 2017 15:37 DieuCure wrote:On September 09 2017 15:36 Sakat wrote:On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying And with the GSL vs World, he has the same amount of GSL titles I'm waiting for Olli answer Inno's wins aren't legit because he just wins because of terran imbalance and has a healthy body. Also he didn't contribute anything to the metagame unlike TaeJa and Mvp which makes him worth less. Maybe Innovation is SC2 version of Flash. No creative plays and no meta-changing builds or tactics. But he does everything precisely and never misses a beat and knows how to take full advantage of Terran's strengths. nah, Inno actually is the grandfather of Terran's meta tbh, he invented greedy 3CC vs Zergs that became Terran's gold build vs Zerg in HOTS, agressive mech which made Terran looked imba in TvZ at the end of HOTS as well. Do you mean turtle into raven mech? Yeah he was the only one able to pull it off against the best Zergs.
Yeah, stuchiu wrote an article about how Inno pioneered the super-aggressive parade push in early HotS that basically made him unstoppable in TvZ. Then he perfected super-defensive turtle mech in late HotS that basically made him unbeatable in TvZ.
Inno has had a huge influence on the Terran meta over the years. He's basically the bellwether of Terran; whatever build he's using is always gonna be the optimal one.
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On September 09 2017 15:47 DieuCure wrote:Next Saturday 17kst
Thanks
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On September 09 2017 15:55 Phredxor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 15:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2017 15:53 Morbidius wrote:On September 09 2017 15:52 DieuCure wrote:On September 09 2017 15:49 Charoisaur wrote:On September 09 2017 15:47 ParksonVN wrote:On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying Inno's GSL titles are much more impressive since they are spread out in a much longer period of time and that shows how consistently good he is. Let's just imagine if there are 4 GSLs every year like the old MVP days, Inno would have won a hell of a lot of GSL titles. In the Mvp days there were like 7 GSLs per year Yes but the top 16 lvl was so so much higher in 2010-2011, the highest skilled era Oh boy, i sure hope you're being sarcastic. Ofc he is, cure didn't play back then Highest skilled era was GSL season 2 2016. Nothing comes close.
Highest skilled era is now
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On September 09 2017 16:03 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 15:55 Phredxor wrote:On September 09 2017 15:54 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 09 2017 15:53 Morbidius wrote:On September 09 2017 15:52 DieuCure wrote:On September 09 2017 15:49 Charoisaur wrote:On September 09 2017 15:47 ParksonVN wrote:On September 09 2017 15:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Soon Inno will have the same amount of code s titles as Mvp, just saying Inno's GSL titles are much more impressive since they are spread out in a much longer period of time and that shows how consistently good he is. Let's just imagine if there are 4 GSLs every year like the old MVP days, Inno would have won a hell of a lot of GSL titles. In the Mvp days there were like 7 GSLs per year Yes but the top 16 lvl was so so much higher in 2010-2011, the highest skilled era Oh boy, i sure hope you're being sarcastic. Ofc he is, cure didn't play back then Highest skilled era was GSL season 2 2016. Nothing comes close. Highest skilled era is now
That was absolutely one of the best, highest-skilled, series I have ever seen. Will definitely go down as such in SC2 history.
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But bogus in 2017 doesn't like energy unitd at all xD Only player could play late game without energy unit.
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Just from the top of my head some strategies/builds Inno pioneered:
-drilling claw rush against Protoss
-2 fact mech push in tvt (2016)
-Hellion cyclone into mech in TvZ
-Bio mine train in early HotS (together with Flash)
-Mech into mass BC/Raven in late HotS
-2 SP banshee into mech
-2/1/1 with double tank followup
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On September 09 2017 16:10 Charoisaur wrote:
Just from the top of my head some strategies/builds Inno pioneered:
-drilling claw rush against Protosd
-2 fact mech push in tvt (2016)
-Hellion cyclone into mech in TvZ
-Bio mine train in early HotS (together with Flash)
-Mech into mass BC/Raven in late HotS
-2 SP banshee into mech
-2/1/1 with double tank followup
Hope some days bogus will show us some dank build with neosteel frame....oh wait...
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On September 09 2017 15:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:
People should make fun of the notion that we can easily say who came up with strategies. Not about Inno not doing innovating. This whole idea of "player x" gets all the credit for meta changes is stupid in the first place.
Even the Bisu one in bw is just a narrative and not actual truth.
All we can really say is who actually won with certain strategies, which is what we value already. results.
Maybe you missed the point about creating strategies and meta changes, but it's a valid point in sc1 and sc2. Sure strategies and tactics evolve in a linear manner most of the time as players build on successes and eliminate failures and weaknesses in strategies, but there comes some players who, for at least a specific period of time (until someone figure them out or the meta changes again), become masters of certain builds and strats. Flash made a flying career out of going Rax-Double and proceeding with impeccable macro. You bring up Bisu, but iirc, Bisu still stands as the gold standard in PvZ, to the point that other Ps have no idea how he does it (except for that on Zerg who even Bisu admits is too wonky to figure out). Everything is out there, his style, bo, how he reacts, etc. But no one can copy it, not only because they cant micro like Bisu, but that Bisu got the whole PvZ meta figured out, zergs have literally nothing against him.
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And the cyclone bs from skt house ( him and dream ) on the zerg 3rd
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On September 09 2017 16:12 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 15:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:
People should make fun of the notion that we can easily say who came up with strategies. Not about Inno not doing innovating. This whole idea of "player x" gets all the credit for meta changes is stupid in the first place.
Even the Bisu one in bw is just a narrative and not actual truth.
All we can really say is who actually won with certain strategies, which is what we value already. results. Maybe you missed the point about creating strategies and meta changes, but it's a valid point in sc1 and sc2. Sure strategies and tactics evolve in a linear manner most of the time as players build on successes and eliminate failures and weaknesses in strategies, but there comes some players who, for at least a specific period of time (until someone figure them out or the meta changes again), become masters of certain builds and strats. Flash made a flying career out of going Rax-Double and proceeding with impeccable macro. You bring up Bisu, but iirc, Bisu still stands as the gold standard in PvZ, to the point that other Ps have no idea how he does it (except for that on Zerg who even Bisu admits is too wonky to figure out). Everything is out there, his style, bo, how he reacts, etc. But no one can copy it, not only because they cant micro like Bisu, but that Bisu got the whole PvZ meta figured out, zergs have literally nothing against him.
Sure, but you're missing the point. In none of your examples did they create the builds. Bisu revolutionized PvZ with his eponymous build, but DaezanG had come up with it before him. And yet Bisu is rightfully known for this build, since he's the one who achieved success with it.
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On September 09 2017 16:12 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 15:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:
People should make fun of the notion that we can easily say who came up with strategies. Not about Inno not doing innovating. This whole idea of "player x" gets all the credit for meta changes is stupid in the first place.
Even the Bisu one in bw is just a narrative and not actual truth.
All we can really say is who actually won with certain strategies, which is what we value already. results. Maybe you missed the point about creating strategies and meta changes, but it's a valid point in sc1 and sc2. Sure strategies and tactics evolve in a linear manner most of the time as players build on successes and eliminate failures and weaknesses in strategies, but there comes some players who, for at least a specific period of time (until someone figure them out or the meta changes again), become masters of certain builds and strats. Flash made a flying career out of going Rax-Double and proceeding with impeccable macro. You bring up Bisu, but iirc, Bisu still stands as the gold standard in PvZ, to the point that other Ps have no idea how he does it (except for that on Zerg who even Bisu admits is too wonky to figure out). Everything is out there, his style, bo, how he reacts, etc. But no one can copy it, not only because they cant micro like Bisu, but that Bisu got the whole PvZ meta figured out, zergs have literally nothing against him.
His point is that we can't say who really came up with a build because we only see the tournament results and not the practice of the players. It's entirely possible that some B-teamer or his coach came up with the "Bisu build" and Bisu just executed it really well and then took all the credit for it because he was the first one that got the opportunity to show it in a tournament.
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And remember, Inno only wins 10% of his TvZ matches.
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EPT
