2017 Update - What is a King, without his Warchest?
It's 2017 and the momentum SHOUTcraft Kings gained in 2016 yielded excellent results. Far surpassing estimates and expectations, SHOUTcraft Kings is one of the most successful online events in Starcraft history, surpassing viewcounts for even big offline events such as Dreamhack Austin and GSL. We intend to continue to build on that success in 2017 and once again bring you the exciting action of our "no second chances" format. Thanks to the success of the Starcraft Warchest, Blizzard has seen fit to have the prize pool raised to $10000 per event for the remainder of the year. Will this be all you'll see from SHOUTcraft this year? Oh no, not by a long shot.....
Well well, it's been a while and I'm finally happy to announce my new tournament venture, SHOUTcraft Kings, which is directly sponsored by and partnered with Blizzard Entertainment. I've been thinking for a while now about what the Starcraft 2 scene could do better and my conclusion is, story-telling. Any sport lives or dies based on stories. Stories get people to tune in. Stories fuel the passion of the fans. Stories are the basis of competition. Storytelling can be tricky with a complicated system and so many different tournaments. It can be hard to keep track. I wanted to host a format in which it wasn't, something where the story could not be simpler.
Who is at the top of the mountain? How long can they defend it?
King of the Hill is that format. It's a little underused in Starcraft 2, which is a shame, because it's easy to follow and it naturally creates stories. Epic runs, surprise opponents, shock dethroning. I wanted to create something akin to WWEs Royal Rumble, but in Starcraft. Why do people watch that? For surprise entrants, long runs, big elimination streaks. It's exciting to tune in and be surprised. King of the Hill does all of that naturally and it's a compact, easy to follow format with month-to-month continuity.
We're going to do 20 maps in a one day event every month. Each map victory pays out $250 prize-money to the winner. The winner of the map becomes the King and will then play their next opponent. They will not know who that opponent is in advance, it will be a surprise to both them and the audience. If they keep winning, they keep playing and they keep getting paid. If they lose, they're out of that months event, to be replaced by the new King. That said, being King has its advantages. The King gets to choose the map. We use a 5 map pool from the ladder. Once a map is picked, it cannot be used again until the entire pool is exhausted. The King will choose the map and there are no vetoes.
I'm excited to bring you this event in close cooperation with Blizzard who will be providing the prizepool. We've been working on this idea for a number of months and we think it will provide something awesome to the online tournament scene and an entertaining event for the viewers. Join us on July 24th live for the first edition and on Youtube for spoiler-free VoDs. We will be revealing some of the players who will participate over the next month, but of course some will remain a mystery until they appear during the event.
On August 08 2017 13:59 True_Spike wrote: Great! My favourite online tournament of all time
I can only hope it truly will be every month, but I understand why it hasn't been the case so far and can't really complain.
Yup its been a bit shakey but the rest of the year is looking stable for the moment anyway. Hopefully it stays that way, the plan is to do every month up until the end of the year.
Since this is the first time a non WCS event receives warchest funds, it gives me hope for tournaments like Nationwars and HSC getting supported in the future.
So glad they're using the warchest money for stuff like this! I bought it to support the game and I'm happy Blizzard is using the money to give back to the community and also to help it grow. TB and Shoutcraft have a huge positive influense on the community and it's great to see that Blizzard has noticed that as well!
This is very nice. I hope that war chest earnings (this or next times) also go to fund additional WCS tournaments. This year there are too few, compared to Korea.
This is indeed very nice. Only I do not see the value added by the extra 5000 per month here. Yes, the players will receive some more cash in "the most unfair" system of playing sc2 (to a significant degree the host decides who wins by selecting opponents and map selection available only to winner). I do not think this will bring in more viewers or better players. Instead this funds could be used to create additional online/offline tournaments of this sort. So I do have a feeling of squandering Warchest money in this, unless there is something I do not know about.
On August 09 2017 01:08 Kafka777 wrote: This is indeed very nice. Only I do not see the value added by the extra 5000 per month here. Yes, the players will receive some more cash in "the most unfair" system of playing sc2 (to a significant degree the host decides who wins by selecting opponents and map selection available only to winner). I do not think this will bring in more viewers or better players. Instead this funds could be used to create additional online/offline tournaments of this sort. So I do have a feeling of squandering Warchest money in this, unless there is something I do not know about.
What is the purpose in raising the blizzcon prizepool by $200,000?
If you have the answer to that, then you have the answer to this
This is so sick. Every month of Shoutcraft has the same prizepool as a season of WCS Challenger now I believe. Taking 2 maps is the equivalent of getting group stage 3 in prize money at a premier event. So sick.
On August 09 2017 01:37 feardragon wrote: This is so sick. Every month of Shoutcraft has the same prizepool as a season of WCS Challenger now I believe. Taking 2 maps is the equivalent of getting group stage 3 in prize money at a premier event. So sick.
Boosting the challenger prize pool with the warchest next is the most important investment imo.
On August 09 2017 01:08 Kafka777 wrote: This is indeed very nice. Only I do not see the value added by the extra 5000 per month here. Yes, the players will receive some more cash in "the most unfair" system of playing sc2 (to a significant degree the host decides who wins by selecting opponents and map selection available only to winner). I do not think this will bring in more viewers or better players. Instead this funds could be used to create additional online/offline tournaments of this sort. So I do have a feeling of squandering Warchest money in this, unless there is something I do not know about.
What is the purpose in raising the blizzcon prizepool by $200,000?
If you have the answer to that, then you have the answer to this
In terms of building and sustaining the scene, there isn't much purpose. It gives more money to the players who are already pretty successful and doesn't really bring in more viewers. (I doubt anyone is going to not watch the global finals because the champion only wins $200k but decide it is worth their time if they win $300k)
While SHOUTcraft Kings is a great tournament, the players who profit are largely the ones who are already making money in pretty much every tournament they enter. Does that build and sustain the scene?
Eh I don't know, I think boosting the prizepool for Kings actually benefits it more than it would a traditional premier event. Because it provides even more incentive than before for some of the higher level pros to actually take it seriously and focus, and not just treat it as another unimportant online tournament where they just show up and get sniped by a player who is worse on paper but who actually gives a shit and feels the hunger.
[quote]What is the purpose in raising the blizzcon prizepool by $200,000?
If you have the answer to that, then you have the answer to this[/quote
The goal of increasing Blizzcon prizepool is rather different. This is the most significant SC2 event of the year, a goal for all pro and aspiring pro players. Raising the prize pool to historical record levels does indeed attract more attention from media, viewers and winning could be a life changer for the winner.
On August 09 2017 01:54 207aicila wrote: Eh I don't know, I think boosting the prizepool for Kings actually benefits it more than it would a traditional premier event. Because it provides even more incentive than before for some of the higher level pros to actually take it seriously and focus, and not just treat it as another unimportant online tournament where they just show up and get sniped by a player who is worse on paper but who actually gives a shit and feels the hunger.
So I'm for it.
INnoVation was going to forfeit one of the IEM Katowice qualifiers to play in SHOUTcraft Kings if he needed to. You can't say that's the pros not taking it seriously.
On August 09 2017 01:54 207aicila wrote: Eh I don't know, I think boosting the prizepool for Kings actually benefits it more than it would a traditional premier event. Because it provides even more incentive than before for some of the higher level pros to actually take it seriously and focus, and not just treat it as another unimportant online tournament where they just show up and get sniped by a player who is worse on paper but who actually gives a shit and feels the hunger.
So I'm for it.
INnoVation was going to forfeit one of the IEM Katowice qualifiers to play in SHOUTcraft Kings if he needed to. You can't say that's the pros not taking it seriously.
I didn't say that no one is taking it seriously, or even that many of them aren't, but some very clearly did not. Remember Soulkey even got banned because he couldn't be bothered to show up (twice I think? might be wrong) despite agreeing to in advance?
SHOUTcraft Kings has paid out $52,500. By my count and evaluation of players, only around $13,000 of that has been to players who are mid-tier or lower in their scene.
Non-Koreans have made $13,600.
Non-Koreans and mid-tier and lower Koreans have made $20,900.
By that last measure, I suppose you could say that some of the top pros haven't been taking it seriously, but to really make that statement, you'd have to go through and look at what maps they played on against which players because I don't think it is fair to say that a top-tier pro losing to a mid-tier pro on a map they'd ban out in any tournament because it is super favoring their opponent.
On August 09 2017 01:54 207aicila wrote: Eh I don't know, I think boosting the prizepool for Kings actually benefits it more than it would a traditional premier event. Because it provides even more incentive than before for some of the higher level pros to actually take it seriously and focus, and not just treat it as another unimportant online tournament where they just show up and get sniped by a player who is worse on paper but who actually gives a shit and feels the hunger.
So I'm for it.
INnoVation was going to forfeit one of the IEM Katowice qualifiers to play in SHOUTcraft Kings if he needed to. You can't say that's the pros not taking it seriously.
I didn't say that no one is taking it seriously, or even that many of them aren't, but some very clearly did not. Remember Soulkey even got banned because he couldn't be bothered to show up (twice I think? might be wrong) despite agreeing to in advance?
This never happened. This was Clan Wars years ago and had nothing to do with kings at all
Lemme put it this way. Kings has paid the rent of more pro gamers in the last year than pretty much any other tournament and being able to do that is damn important to the sustainability of this scene., more so in my mind than giant end of year prizes.
On August 09 2017 01:54 207aicila wrote: Eh I don't know, I think boosting the prizepool for Kings actually benefits it more than it would a traditional premier event. Because it provides even more incentive than before for some of the higher level pros to actually take it seriously and focus, and not just treat it as another unimportant online tournament where they just show up and get sniped by a player who is worse on paper but who actually gives a shit and feels the hunger.
So I'm for it.
INnoVation was going to forfeit one of the IEM Katowice qualifiers to play in SHOUTcraft Kings if he needed to. You can't say that's the pros not taking it seriously.
I didn't say that no one is taking it seriously, or even that many of them aren't, but some very clearly did not. Remember Soulkey even got banned because he couldn't be bothered to show up (twice I think? might be wrong) despite agreeing to in advance?
This never happened. This was Clan Wars years ago and had nothing to do with kings at all
That's entirely my bad then. Still, good that it won't/can't go that road anymore which justifies the extra investment I think.
On August 09 2017 01:08 Kafka777 wrote: This is indeed very nice. Only I do not see the value added by the extra 5000 per month here. Yes, the players will receive some more cash in "the most unfair" system of playing sc2 (to a significant degree the host decides who wins by selecting opponents and map selection available only to winner). I do not think this will bring in more viewers or better players. Instead this funds could be used to create additional online/offline tournaments of this sort. So I do have a feeling of squandering Warchest money in this, unless there is something I do not know about.
What is the purpose in raising the blizzcon prizepool by $200,000?
If you have the answer to that, then you have the answer to this
How can people complain about this event getting more money?
For all of those who say Blizzard should support these ominous "low/midtier" players. I think if the only way to have a pro scene is by Blizzard artificially throwing out money, then I'd rather not have a pro scene at all. It is much better if they organize fun events like Shoutcraft Kings.
On August 09 2017 01:37 feardragon wrote: This is so sick. Every month of Shoutcraft has the same prizepool as a season of WCS Challenger now I believe. Taking 2 maps is the equivalent of getting group stage 3 in prize money at a premier event. So sick.
Boosting the challenger prize pool with the warchest next is the most important investment imo.
From what was going on in Chinese scene in the past few years, increasing prize pool to benefit those manage to enter challenger but unable to progress far is nice in sustaining players, but not necessarily helps them to be more competitive. In fact for a long time it only makes old players enjoy free prize money with minimal effort. So it can be a double-edged sword.
On August 09 2017 04:36 DSh1 wrote:How can people complain about this event getting more money?
Does this event getting more money make the event better? Maybe if it lures even more of the top Koreans who've previously only played once or twice (e.g. most of the Jin Air players), but then that means there are fewer mid-tier players with a chance to win money.
On August 09 2017 04:36 DSh1 wrote:For all of those who say Blizzard should support these ominous "low/midtier" players. I think if the only way to have a pro scene is by Blizzard artificially throwing out money, then I'd rather not have a pro scene at all. It is much better if they organize fun events like Shoutcraft Kings.
It isn't artificially throwing out money when they promise to use a percentage of warchest sales on tournaments.
On August 09 2017 04:36 DSh1 wrote:How can people complain about this event getting more money?
Does this event getting more money make the event better? Maybe if it lures even more of the top Koreans who've previously only played once or twice (e.g. most of the Jin Air players), but then that means there are fewer mid-tier players with a chance to win money.
On August 09 2017 04:36 DSh1 wrote:For all of those who say Blizzard should support these ominous "low/midtier" players. I think if the only way to have a pro scene is by Blizzard artificially throwing out money, then I'd rather not have a pro scene at all. It is much better if they organize fun events like Shoutcraft Kings.
It isn't artificially throwing out money when they promise to use a percentage of warchest sales on tournaments.
Quite. Its the opposite of artificially throwing money at it. They made X dollars by selling a thing in SC2 and part of that audience is one that's been kept interested by our events and others. Now they are diverting Y dollars of what they made to pump up an event that was already the most cost-efficient thing they run.
The value Kings provides to SC2 and Blizzard for the relatively tiny amount of money it costs to run is pretty extreme. It cost more to run Kings at Blizzcon for 2 hours than it did to run 6 months of Kings online. Thats the massive divide between online events and offline events in terms of cost. The future of SC2 is a robust online scene, because it is so cost-efficient and even when you double the money, Kings is still one of the most cost-efficient events on a $/viewer ratio that exists.
In terms of does the extra money help? It ups the stakes for viewers to some extent. There's diminishing returns there sure. Will it boost the viewership? Probably not much no. What it does do though is provide 21 players a shot at, in just a few short maps, making their entire rent for the month. Is that a good thing for the scene? Absolutely it is. We are literally enabling pro-gamers to continue to be pro-gamers through a very accessible tournament that invites a big variety of different players to it.
Consider we've had over 60 different players in Kings up to this point. If you look at Aligulac SC2 has maybe, 150 tournament-viable progamers at this point, as in, people that have a realistic shot of actually winning a BO3 series in a competitive tournament for money of some description. If we can provide access to this kind of funding to that many people, if they can win just a couple of maps, that is a massive boost to the sustainability of SC2 as an eSport that people can dedicate to full-time and an important part of a healthy ecosystem.
It's a format where they realistically can too. Beat 1 person, on any given day, that's 500 bucks. Beat 2, that's $1000. Hey you just paid your rent in a lot of places in the world, for 2 maps, not to mention you massively raised your profile in front of like 60-100,000 viewers. The way most tournaments are setup in SC2 is top-heavy and the majority of those 150 tournament-viable players will never see significant prize money from any of them, because to get there they have to run a gauntlet of really fucking good players. Kings is a format where they realistically can do it and do it without it being viewed as a welfare event. Everyone doesn't win. Everyone doesnt get a trophy for participating. You have to win, to get paid but if you win, you get paid. Dunno if you've noticed but that's not true in most tournaments, winning only counts if you win enough. Win once in Kings, get paid.
So yeah, that's how I view the event as a part of the support structure for competitive SC2 and I think it's a justified way of looking at it. As for the idea of "why does X money go to Y and not Z?", we totally could make 2 Kings events a month, $5000 each. Or Kings and something else, but here's the thing, time and personnel resources are not unlimited things, especially not in my case. I do give up opportunities in order to run Kings, opportunities that would make me more than Kings does. I take no salary from Kings, but I do make money through Twitch and Youtube vods. Simply doubling my workload isnt actually a viable option, I've only got so many hours I can commit to Starcraft without unduly compromising the other stuff I do and sorry to say it, but give that $5000 to someone else and they aint getting even a fraction of the value out of it that I can. Blizzard know it, everyone who knows anything knows it. It's the right spend in the right place for maximum return within the bounds of what I'm realistically capable of committing to SC2 right now.
Despite which there's still more than just Kings coming this year from me tournament wise and warchest funding is making those new events happen. You'll know more soon.
Also thinking in terms of timing, increasing support for online tournaments is realistically the only way to spend the "excess" money from the war chest right now, quickly. For next Warchests and seasons, Blizzard should plan better though, and also communicate better those plans to the community.
Just to be clear, I am not critizising the increase of funding for Shoutcraft Kings. It makes all the sense. But it would be nice to know in advance that, after increasing the price pool at Blizzcon, the next 25 k$ will go to this event, the next 25k$ to X, next 50 k$ to Y, etc. Setting goals this way is usual in crowfounding, and for good reasons. I assume even Blizzard has been surprised by the sales of the war chest. Let's hope it won't happen next time.
To me, where the crux of the question lies is the method in which players are chosen to play. The volatile Bo1 format along with the seemingly random or fabricated matchmaking with an unknown pool of players are what I see as the vexing aspects of this tournament getting more money over other weekly, daily, etc. tournaments.
There's a sort of if-by-whiskey situation here. Blizzard using funds from War Chest sales to reinforce tournaments outside of Blizzcon and WCS seems like a very healthy idea. However, if only the best of the best players are taking that money home every month, then this tournament will no longer be a fun, challenging "pay players' rent tourney" and would become an unhealthy "rich get richer tourney" and defeat a lot of the purpose of the War Chest and ShoutCraft Kings.
I would love to know how players (of any and all 'tiers' and origins) feel about this tournament getting more support but I also think, as with many things, it's too early and there is too little information to say exactly what's "best" over other things that haven't been explored much, if at all. Personally, if I had to choose whether to reinforce an existing, successful event or to create something new or reinvigorate something else/something smaller, I would favor the latter options, as I believe (much more than some) that investing in smaller or newer things has a bigger impact in the long term than investing in something that is already successful and will thrive on its own. But, again, so far the tournament has been good, a good challenge and good opportunity for players of moderate-high skill level, it's fun for the community, and it's still unique within esports, so I'll still support Blizzard pumping this up more. For now, at least.
On August 09 2017 08:34 blunderfulguy wrote: To me, where the crux of the question lies is the method in which players are chosen to play. The volatile Bo1 format along with the seemingly random or fabricated matchmaking with an unknown pool of players are what I see as the vexing aspects of this tournament getting more money over other weekly, daily, etc. tournaments.
There's a sort of if-by-whiskey situation here. Blizzard using funds from War Chest sales to reinforce tournaments outside of Blizzcon and WCS seems like a very healthy idea. However, if only the best of the best players are taking that money home every month, then this tournament will no longer be a fun, challenging "pay players' rent tourney" and would become an unhealthy "rich get richer tourney" and defeat a lot of the purpose of the War Chest and ShoutCraft Kings.
I would love to know how players (of any and all 'tiers' and origins) feel about this tournament getting more support but I also think, as with many things, it's too early and there is too little information to say exactly what's "best" over other things that haven't been explored much, if at all. Personally, if I had to choose whether to reinforce an existing, successful event or to create something new or reinvigorate something else/something smaller, I would favor the latter options, as I believe (much more than some) that investing in smaller or newer things has a bigger impact in the long term than investing in something that is already successful and will thrive on its own. But, again, so far the tournament has been good, a good challenge and good opportunity for players of moderate-high skill level, it's fun for the community, and it's still unique within esports, so I'll still support Blizzard pumping this up more. For now, at least.
Well thankfully we know for certain that the "Best of the best" are not the only ones taking home money from this event and thats been shown in previous breakdowns in this thread of where the prizemoney went.
On August 09 2017 15:53 digmouse wrote: People complain about this?
I guess, mostly seems like people don't really understand concepts like opportunity cost and efficient spending and only see dollar amounts being moved around in buckets. Not at all that easy. X money doesn't magically create Y tournament with Z viewers. They see money invested into something already successful and think 'that money could be spent to make another equally successful event instead!'. Well it can't. You can get more views than Kings but only with a much larger, offline event and you can't do that on this small of a budget. Or you can give that money to someone else and they'll make you an online event that about 1/10th of the people watch compared to ours. Lowko is the only person that still has enough of a YouTube presence to do a tournament like this and draw a casual crowd. I hope he considers doing one soon. He's taken over huskys position in the YouTube market and we could really use that kind of muscle.
What blizzard understand is that Shoutcraft is a strong brand that's been around since Wings beta and it has an audience, some of which are inaccessible to other tournaments. They're investing in a brand of strong, well-run, online events that get GSL level viewership for a fraction of the price and they know that we can do more if we're given a larger budget to play with and further expand our reach into the casual market that other tournaments have difficulty accessing. Slowly, we can bring those people into the ecosystem and create true Starcraft esports fans.
Back when I first launched Shoutcraft in wings beta, our tag line was 'your esports gateway drug'. That philosophy never really changed. We wanted to be accesssible to casuals and non-fans alike and we have achieved that through the use of unique formats, interesting concepts, viewer-friendly scheduling and our spoiler-free vod policy. That's why nobody else can make an online event that gets our levels of viewership, we spent 8 years building that brand and Blizzard wants us to grow bigger because it benefits everyone when we do.
I don't get it, how do people complain about it? Kings is probably the most compelling event out there out there simply because of the format, you don't know who's coming next, you don't know who's going to be "on" that day and who might have a great run?
Stephano, iAsonu, Bunny, The story is about the underdogs and the David vs Goliath battles, sure there's always going to be a great story as well when Innovation goes on one of his runs, or the excitement when Nerchio did it. Also there's the rivalries built up through the storytelling.
And yet some people still think that it shouldn't be funded? Weird.
I really feel the prize format could be made a lot more exciting. For example, I think that winner should get $400, with $100 pooled on the side until the king is defeated.
This would mean that if you beat someone on a 6 win streak, you'd get $400 + $600 from the pool, a decent bonus for knocking out a tough player.
Right now, if you manage to take down someone with 10 win streak, you get the same as taking down someone with 1 win. $400 for a single game is still a decent amount for one win.
What's the possibility of doing something like this? I tune into this all the time and have always had this idea, but now that Blizzard is sponsoring it for a good amount, it would make things more interesting when we've got someone on a really hot streak.
On August 09 2017 23:00 droppanda wrote: I really feel the prize format could be made a lot more exciting. For example, I think that winner should get $400, with $100 pooled on the side until the king is defeated.
This would mean that if you beat someone on a 6 win streak, you'd get $400 + $600 from the pool, a decent bonus for knocking out a tough player.
Right now, if you manage to take down someone with 10 win streak, you get the same as taking down someone with 1 win. $400 for a single game is still a decent amount for one win.
What's the possibility of doing something like this? I tune into this all the time and have always had this idea, but now that Blizzard is sponsoring it for a good amount, it would make things more interesting when we've got someone on a really hot streak.
They previously did something like that but stopped for whatever reason. (I assume the loss of the Ting sponsorship)
On August 09 2017 23:00 droppanda wrote: I really feel the prize format could be made a lot more exciting. For example, I think that winner should get $400, with $100 pooled on the side until the king is defeated.
This would mean that if you beat someone on a 6 win streak, you'd get $400 + $600 from the pool, a decent bonus for knocking out a tough player.
Right now, if you manage to take down someone with 10 win streak, you get the same as taking down someone with 1 win. $400 for a single game is still a decent amount for one win.
What's the possibility of doing something like this? I tune into this all the time and have always had this idea, but now that Blizzard is sponsoring it for a good amount, it would make things more interesting when we've got someone on a really hot streak.
They previously did something like that but stopped for whatever reason. (I assume the loss of the Ting sponsorship)
Yeah I think TB said very recently (maybe last night's podcast?) that the bounty system was scrapped because it was confusing for viewers.
On August 09 2017 08:34 blunderfulguy wrote: To me, where the crux of the question lies is the method in which players are chosen to play. The volatile Bo1 format along with the seemingly random or fabricated matchmaking with an unknown pool of players are what I see as the vexing aspects of this tournament getting more money over other weekly, daily, etc. tournaments.
There's a sort of if-by-whiskey situation here. Blizzard using funds from War Chest sales to reinforce tournaments outside of Blizzcon and WCS seems like a very healthy idea. However, if only the best of the best players are taking that money home every month, then this tournament will no longer be a fun, challenging "pay players' rent tourney" and would become an unhealthy "rich get richer tourney" and defeat a lot of the purpose of the War Chest and ShoutCraft Kings.
I would love to know how players (of any and all 'tiers' and origins) feel about this tournament getting more support but I also think, as with many things, it's too early and there is too little information to say exactly what's "best" over other things that haven't been explored much, if at all. Personally, if I had to choose whether to reinforce an existing, successful event or to create something new or reinvigorate something else/something smaller, I would favor the latter options, as I believe (much more than some) that investing in smaller or newer things has a bigger impact in the long term than investing in something that is already successful and will thrive on its own. But, again, so far the tournament has been good, a good challenge and good opportunity for players of moderate-high skill level, it's fun for the community, and it's still unique within esports, so I'll still support Blizzard pumping this up more. For now, at least.
Well thankfully we know for certain that the "Best of the best" are not the only ones taking home money from this event and thats been shown in previous breakdowns in this thread of where the prizemoney went.
regarding the guys winning money... where is the "previous breakdowns in this thread" ? i don't see it and Boggyb provided no source.
I think we all agree that Shoutcraft Kings provides exceptional value, it is a great tournament, a strong brand and a fun event. Should it be funded - yes of course it should. On the other hand it is already well funded, it probably has better funding than all other online tournaments globally combined with 5k $ in any given month - all Basetrade TV events, Wardi, OSC Go4Sc2, Olimoligue etc. It is a pity that Shoutcraft organizer cannot devote more time to Sc2 but that is fully understandable. It may not be a bad idea to increase the prizepool in Shoutcraft Kings to 10k, but I think the community should throw in a bunch of proposals for additional tournaments that could be organized with such funds - for example I think TakeTv + Dennis could think of some fun online event if they got there hands on 5k ;-)
I like incontrol, usually. The timeslot just seems terrible for him, always so low energy, killing the hype. I wish they'd move the timeslot or get another cocaster, sry geoff :<
For example, what would you think of an online tournament in DH format open to all, played over 1-2 months or standard 3-4 days. All players would have to provide live camera feed from how they are playing (not the game itself), be available for interviews etc. volunteers would provide live translations. Community casters would cast the games and lets say Basetrade and Taketv would coordinate streams and interviews. The community has a lot of power and 5.000$ prize pool can go a long way in terms of organizing an online party.
If anything i really want a well ran teamleague again. This wouldn't even need to be "official teams" (cause let's be real we lost some of those), it could also be simply 4-5 players forming one for the tournament (or maybe nationality based) Proleague format to see your favorite player each match, camera feed to make it more fun and for interviews, stuff like that.
In general i think team events in general are more fun, maybe one day we will get another great one
All casters would do interviews on their own twitch channels. Say Incontrol, Tod, Apollo, Ravi, Wardi, Rotterdam could interview players winners/losers on their own or jointly. Lets say Nerchio wins a game they could all interview him separately and we could rate the interviews. We would just have to jump between channels.
On August 10 2017 07:01 The_Red_Viper wrote: If anything i really want a well ran teamleague again. This wouldn't even need to be "official teams" (cause let's be real we lost some of those), it could also be simply 4-5 players forming one for the tournament (or maybe nationality based) Proleague format to see your favorite player each match, camera feed to make it more fun and for interviews, stuff like that.
In general i think team events in general are more fun, maybe one day we will get another great one
Team-leagues have kinda crashed and burned a lot in the past due to scheduling concerns, how time consuming they are, no-shows and so on, so it's not surprising that tournament organizers have mostly steered clear of them and held tournaments with easier to run formats. Wardi's teamleague is the only recent example I can think of (VSL doesn't really count). And since team-leagues take so long they often fall under the radar for most of the audience. There is a small sector of the audience that really likes team-leagues a lot, but a lot of that has to do with being a fan of specific teams, which there aren't a ton of around. Impromptu teams wouldn't garner the same attention. Unfortunately I just don't see it being a smart decision for a tournament organizer to organize a team league over other events the way things are now.
On August 10 2017 01:29 Kafka777 wrote: I think we all agree that Shoutcraft Kings provides exceptional value, it is a great tournament, a strong brand and a fun event. Should it be funded - yes of course it should. On the other hand it is already well funded, it probably has better funding than all other online tournaments globally combined with 5k $ in any given month - all Basetrade TV events, Wardi, OSC Go4Sc2, Olimoligue etc. It is a pity that Shoutcraft organizer cannot devote more time to Sc2 but that is fully understandable. It may not be a bad idea to increase the prizepool in Shoutcraft Kings to 10k, but I think the community should throw in a bunch of proposals for additional tournaments that could be organized with such funds - for example I think TakeTv + Dennis could think of some fun online event if they got there hands on 5k ;-)
We also get more viewers than all the events you just listed combined, so.
The community has no say in what events get made. If an organizer wants to make an event and get it funded they should submit a convincing proposal to a sponsor or Blizzard to get it done. That's how everything we've done up until now, including the Blizzcon event, the voicepack, the upcoming unaccounced events and everything else happened.
Show some initiative and convince someone with the money to fund your thing because you're worth it. Nobody ever accomplished anything by complaining on a forum about it, go out and do it.
I remember when the community organized and made events happen. I remember when Reddit made a great tournament because they organized it and made it happen. If you want something, do like they did. Show initiative and put in the work. Go to Blizzard or another sponsor and convince them you are worth the money, that's how things happen.
If Take wants 5k, he can get 5k. No problem at all. He crowdfunds a lot of HSC these days and sponsors pay the rest. He is more than capable of that, one of the Best in SC2 at it. He gets things done. Be like Take, be the change you wanna see, don't post passive aggressive crap like 'ooooh this other person should get money'. If they want money, they can ask for it and they will.
If we pave the way for that by taking that initiative first that's good. The only reason there are caster voice packs right now is because I proposed the first one and hammered out the contract and agreement for it. It wasn't going to happen otherwise. If it sounds like I'm bragging I'm not I'm trying to encourage all of you to go out and DO, not just post
Some people will complain about anything. I bought the full warchest and I am absolutely delighted to know that some of my money will go to Shoutcraft, because it is the best online tournament there is and nobody else deserves it more, plain and simple. People insinuating that money would be better used going to Basetrade TV, Wardi etc should get a reality check, no disrespect to those guys and their valuable work for the scene, but entertainement wise, they are The Big Bang Theory reruns when Shoutcraft Kings is fucking prime time season 7 Game Of Thrones, and that's why everyone is tuning in.
I can't wait for the August event and the other projects, and I'm sure the silent majority does.
On August 10 2017 18:54 fastr wrote:People insinuating that money would be better used going to Basetrade TV, Wardi etc should get a reality check,
how do you know that $0 is getting directed in places other than Shoutcraft? maybe it is and the orgs receiving the cash are not talking about it. BTTV rarely posts here.
We also get more viewers than all the events you just listed combined, so.
The community has no say in what events get made. If an organizer wants to make an event and get it funded they should submit a convincing proposal to a sponsor or Blizzard to get it done. That's how everything we've done up until now, including the Blizzcon event, the voicepack, the upcoming unaccounced events and everything else happened.
Show some initiative and convince someone with the money to fund your thing because you're worth it. Nobody ever accomplished anything by complaining on a forum about it, go out and do it.
I remember when the community organized and made events happen. I remember when Reddit made a great tournament because they organized it and made it happen. If you want something, do like they did. Show initiative and put in the work. Go to Blizzard or another sponsor and convince them you are worth the money, that's how things happen.
If Take wants 5k, he can get 5k. No problem at all. He crowdfunds a lot of HSC these days and sponsors pay the rest. He is more than capable of that, one of the SC2 at it. He gets things done. Be like Take, be the change you wanna see, don't post passive aggressive crap like 'ooooh this other person should get money'. If they want money, they can ask for it and they will.
If we pave the way for that by taking that initiative first that's good. The only reason there are faster voice packs right now is because I proposed the first one and hammered out the contract and agreement for it. It wasn't going to happen otherwise. If it sounds like I'm bragging I'm not I'm trying to encourage all of you to go out and DO, not just post
Do not take this personally, I am not saying funds assigned to your project has to be used for anything else. There are probably more funds available. I am just asking people for opinions and suggestions. I truly appreciate your work and input and the funds you managed to organize are well deserved.
I am just asking people for opinions and suggestions.
Why though? That does nothing.
If people want to make a tournament, they should go and make a tournament. Posting about it is useless. Go do it. We weren't soliciting suggestions for this event and no sponsor is soliciting suggestions for things. It's just a pointless waste of time.
On August 11 2017 08:53 Phredxor wrote: Blizz should have given 175k to that guy who made a thread about some Phillipines tourney instead ofc.
The notorious scammer Gus Ledesma? Yeah, no.
That guy's a 'notorious scammer' and not just some clown? Because asking for a $225K handout from some strangers on the internet doesn't sound like a productive strategy.
On August 11 2017 08:53 Phredxor wrote: Blizz should have given 175k to that guy who made a thread about some Phillipines tourney instead ofc.
The notorious scammer Gus Ledesma? Yeah, no.
That guy's a 'notorious scammer' and not just some clown? Because asking for a $225K handout from some strangers on the internet doesn't sound like a productive strategy.
He's a notorious scammer in that he disappeared with a shit ton of money that was supposed to be used for an event, yes.
On August 11 2017 08:53 Phredxor wrote: Blizz should have given 175k to that guy who made a thread about some Phillipines tourney instead ofc.
The notorious scammer Gus Ledesma? Yeah, no.
That guy's a 'notorious scammer' and not just some clown? Because asking for a $225K handout from some strangers on the internet doesn't sound like a productive strategy.
There was a giant shitshow way back in 2011, where he tried to run some event called PPSL but actually stole lots of sponsorship money ($10k+ USD iirc) and screwed over a bunch of well-meaning people who tried to help him before taking off and leaving everyone else to clean up the mess.
TL;DR: What seemed to be the main problem with Ledesma as far as the partners are concerned is his inability to present a concrete breakdown of expenses and the promised marketing mileage was not attained. Where were the team jackets and lanyards that the partners paid for? What happened to the big posters in the venue as well as the TV coverage? What happened to all the money? It made the partners feel that they were duped by a single entity the same way the rest of the international and local gaming communities. Truly, no single person has made such an impact in the gaming industry that it be making waves around the whole Philippines and international scene. Sadly, instead of putting the Philippines in the international map in a positive way, one man was able to turn the world disgusted at the Philippines on how this international competition happened.
If people want to make a tournament, they should go and make a tournament. Posting about it is useless. Go do it. We weren't soliciting suggestions for this event and no sponsor is soliciting suggestions for things. It's just a pointless waste of time.
Possibly you are right. The point is there are very few people who have the capacity and authority to provide good organization, receive sponsorship, secure player participation and a satisfactory audience etc. If I was to make a short list it would be You, Basetrade, Take and O'gaming. If a good idea pops up, that you guys find attractive you have the capacity to turn it into reality. If there are no good ideas its very difficult indeed. It would be great to have some new sc2 events.
Yep, I was actually one of the people involved in the whole PPSL debacle. Everything they said about Gus is true. He scammed us, stole all sponsorship money and basically single-handedly ruined IPL and the career of David Ting (Head of IPL) among other things. I.e. Put us in debt, debt, and even more debt.
The budget that we had was enough to run the tournament and give out a decent prize pool to the top players, and this was all before IGN even came into the equation. The only reason that IGN contacted us (and they did contact us first) was because we had planned to hold the event on a weekend they had marked for one of their own gigs. And with SC2 and esports booming the way it was in those early days, they didn't want to fracture the viewership and compete for views. This led them to call us, pledge a bigger amount for prize pool and offer to make our tournament a qualifier for the next big IPL event they were going to throw. This was how the tournament became known as the Pacific Qualifiers.
Now, the original tournament was my brainchild that I brought up to a friend (the one who introduced me to SC2 and even gave me a beta key for WoL). We had worked on the concept for months leading up to the event, but the only logistical problem that we had was lack of knowledge of the local scene. You see, back then I was more focused on NA ladder and the international scene. I had seen the slow decline of the SEA region in terms of players and started playing more in NA and even bought another account to play in TW/KR region. (This was before they opened every server to each account.) This was part of the reason my friend and I were unfamiliar with the local scene. The initial idea I had was to make the Philippines something of a middle ground when it came to competitive play. Close enough proximity to KR that we could bring top players in, but also with a strong English backbone so getting stuff done wouldn't be an issue, especially when it came to selling the idea to an international audience.
Now, the first step in becoming familiar with the local scene was to sponsor one of the local tournaments. We didn't give much other than a few hundred bucks ($) and a Razer peripheral or two. So while I was working on logistical issues for our upcoming event (which was still just a concept I was working on, which I shared with my friend), my friend had aligned himself (and our event, by proxy) to AZK and more specifically Gus, who I was told was familiar with the local scene—supposedly our "in" to getting the local community to help us run the event.
But I can tell you that the first time I met him, I suspected him of being shady af. Basically could see the dollar signs blinking in his eyes. But I was assured by my friend that we needed this guy to rally the community—and we really did need the local community to help out—to gather all the resources and resolve any issues we might have when running a tournament. I had to agree, because I had come to see that two people couldn't run the tournament that I envisioned. I mean it wasn't some online tournament that we wanted to throw. I wanted to create a brand. Wanted top players. Basically wanted to create a legitimate tournament that would someday be able to rival the other brands like MLG and IEM, etc. And mind you, at this point, IGN wasn't involved yet.
I had told my friend about the uncertainty and doubt I had regarding Gus, but my friend told me that he would handle Gus and all I had to do was take care of the rest of the stuff. Now, I trusted this friend immensely, so when he told me he would handle everything Gus-related, I trusted that to be true. I had worked on getting the sponsors onboard. I had written so much print and contracts that we had gotten enough pledges to have amounted to something a little over $20,000. And I had budgeted everything well enough that we were sure to be able to get at least 16 of the top players, as well as Tastosis to cast the event. Now, I knew that when we got Tastosis on board that would give the tournament the legitimacy it needed. And while their fee was quite costly, they were most definitely worth it.
So I had done my part. Then word reached IGN (IPL) that we had managed to secure Tastosis for the event, and not only that but our event actually fell on a weekend that they had planned one of their own events. This led to IGN contacting my friend and I, where we worked out details regarding the event, their tie-in, accrediting us as basically IPL-Pacific and also their offer to up the prize pool by pledging their own amount. Which was around the same amount that we had already managed to secure for ourselves.
So now we had managed to basically get something close to $40,000 for our budget, and considering that we were already able to budget out an event from our initial amount, IGN's promise of doubling that amount basically solved all our extraneous logistical issues. We wouldn't have to skimp out on anything anymore. We'd be able to get completely soundproof booths, set stage and lighting, rent the location that we had hoped to get, spec out all the player computers and even the one we had for our own streaming purposes. We wouldn't need volunteers anymore since we could afford to pay everyone that put their time and effort into the event. With the extra funds, we would be able to surely bring the top players of the time over from KR and even put up a pretty substantial prize pool. Basically run a legitimate tournament that would be worthy of being part of the IPL roster.
IGN even offered to fly my friend and I to the IPL 3 (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IGN_ProLeague_Season_3) event in Atlantic City. But because I didn't have my visa for the US ready in time, Gus went in my place.
Like I mentioned earlier, I wasn't a fan of Gus, but my friend was right when he said that Gus was connected to the local scene. His team AZK was one of the only two known teams in the country, and there were quite a few top ranked players from the region on the team. His connections to the local scene brought about people who were passionate about SC2 and who were willing to help us out in running the event. While I had set up all the logistics to run a proper tournament, my friend who promised to handle everything on the Gus front, including the local community, had to go back to the States because of college duties. Then everything went wrong.
It started with the initial sponsorship money, which was handed out to secure the location as well as all the extras. This included lighting and stage expenses, all of which we ordered to have built from scratch. But none of that money went to pay for the things it was marked for. Gus started blowing it by inviting Tastosis over from KR a week earlier than we needed. He blew the money by splurging on unnecessary things, like lavish dinners, $3,000 jackets, going out drinking every night and taking care of the bills (which amounted to over a few thousand $), as well as other things. He basically used the money as his own personal fund. Spending it as he wished. And I didn't know about any of it until a week before the event.
The only reason I found out was because I got calls from people I didn't know. These were local community people who were hired to provide the services we needed for the event. I had heard back from the soundbooth people saying they had never gotten paid, neither did the lights and sound guys. I heard from the location that we supposedly booked saying that we weren't booked for the whole weekend. This and other issues that we had money bookmarked for started to implode, causing a logistical nightmare for me, and more importantly for the event. And this was a week before the event.
So I called my friend, who was now back in the States at college, and told him about everything that was going wrong. And also, I have yet to mention this, but my friend and I put in at least several thousand $ of our own money in securing the stuff we needed for our event. He couldn't believe what was happening, didn't want to believe that Gus had spent all of the initial sponsorship money we had gathered and asked me to basically take charge of the community side of the event. But it was far too late by then.
The only thing I could do at that point was use the money that we hadn't given yet to Gus to pay for all the expenses. I contacted the other local sponsors that had yet to hand over the money and told them to hold their money until the day of the event. My friend contacted IGN to tell them that there were problems and asked them to hold off sending their pledge until we were able to resolve all the overlying issues.
When I tried to contact the people in charge of the different aspects of the event, my calls weren't being taken. I had later found out that as I tried to salvage the situation, Gus told the rest of the local scene to cut me off. They were even trying to charge me entrance to the event.
Luckily since I was able to secure all the local sponsors, they all took my calls. One of the local sponsors (Nissin Cup Noodles) that hadn't yet given their pledge had agreed to give the full amount (around $2k) to the winner of the event. And I made sure they personally handed the money to the winner themselves.
-Then I find out that Gus never paid for any of the plane tickets of the players, he basically put it on credit and told this woman he knew at a travel agency that he would pay her for it. He never did. So she was held liable for another several thousand $ worth of plane tickets. -Also none of the hotels that were booked were paid for, other than the rooms of Tastosis. Even the GunRun who came all the way to the Philippines from Twitch to help with the production of the event had to pay for his own stuff. -There were players who had to bunk with some random local Korean guys who were part of the community, because they didn't have anywhere to stay. -The computers that we had agreed to get for the event were never rented, so players had to play their matches in a nearby pc cafe. -The (full spec'd out, top of the line) computer that we were promised for production and streaming (which was one of the requirements that IPL made us ensure) was actually picked up by Gus and never brought to the venue. I believe he still has it with him right now.
Then, the night before the event, Gus calls me. He tells me how everything is falling apart and he wants me to take charge of the event. I wish him good luck, tell him to go fuck himself, and I don't show up to the event that I had been planning for half a year.
Luckily, because IPL withheld their pledge after we informed them of the messed up situation, Gus wasn't able to get that money. And it was divided up and sent to some of the people that were owed. I had heard that the travel agent woman was able to pay off the tickets, and there was still some left that went to pay for the location and internet connection and a few other things.
Sadly, none of the people that worked hard to make the event come to life got paid. There's still a lot more fucked up things that happened but that's the pretty much the most important details about the story and what happened.
In the end, IPL eventually died out. David Ting (who was an absolute pleasure to work with and a great human being) left IGN (got fired or quit?) Our PPSL event was a disaster where the prize pool was effectively halved. The whole Philippine scene was shamefaced. My friend and I lost over $6,000 of our own money and had nothing to show for it.
The only silver lining of the event was that it was the first LAN that MarineKing won. So at least we had that going for us. /rant
TL;DR Gus stole close to $10,000 of sponsorship cash, equipment and prizes. And put around 10 other people in debt of over another $10,000. He is scum. And if he's reading this now. You, Gus, deserve every bit of karma that has come back to bite you in the ass. Good riddance.
If people want to make a tournament, they should go and make a tournament. Posting about it is useless. Go do it. We weren't soliciting suggestions for this event and no sponsor is soliciting suggestions for things. It's just a pointless waste of time.
Possibly you are right. The point is there are very few people who have the capacity and authority to provide good organization, receive sponsorship, secure player participation and a satisfactory audience etc. If I was to make a short list it would be You, Basetrade, Take and O'gaming. If a good idea pops up, that you guys find attractive you have the capacity to turn it into reality. If there are no good ideas its very difficult indeed. It would be great to have some new sc2 events.
Most of them got to that point because they have the capacity to come up with and execute good ideas for new SC2 events.
There's really no such thing as an "ideas man" in Starcraft 2, just as there isn't in game development. We've got no shortage of ideas, what we have a shortage of funds, staff, time, resources and people willing and able to put those ideas into action. If more people in whats left of the community stepped up and did, we'd have a better community. As it stands though most people just grandstand to the benefit of no-one.
Most of them got to that point because they have the capacity to come up with and execute good ideas for new SC2 events.
There's really no such thing as an "ideas man" in Starcraft 2, just as there isn't in game development. We've got no shortage of ideas, what we have a shortage of funds, staff, time, resources and people willing and able to put those ideas into action. If more people in whats left of the community stepped up and did, we'd have a better community. As it stands though most people just grandstand to the benefit of no-one.
I get your point. Blizzard just spent 260k $ on increasing prize pools of the most important online event and offline event. This is very cool. To some extent justified. But if the next 200 k goes only to increasing prize pools of say DH, then I will feel a certain discomfort and suspect lack of imagination. I believe you have a bag of ideas, but never underestimate the power of community ideas, some things always may be improved. Copyrights and patents do not have to be a problem as if they are presented in public domain they become freely available or easily secured if necessary.
[QUOTE]On August 12 2017 08:46 Kafka777 wrote: [quote]Copyrights and patents do not have to be a problem as if they are presented in public domain they become freely available or easily secured if necessary.[/QUOTE]
Patents....
yeah ok just, no, just stop. These are pretty clearly not things you understand
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/d6YR2xT.png)
Maru
Bly
Thanks!
