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On February 18 2016 21:49 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2016 21:46 dankobanana wrote:On February 18 2016 21:31 opisska wrote:
You probably don't understand that your are beating yourself by your argument. The scores against Life and Inno are surely impressive, but do the results against MMA and MC come from their GSL-winning periods, or from the time they were travelling Koreans taking the easy money from foreigners? And HyuN and HerO are "the best" only by the same metric as most people are trying to sell Taeja - by being good in foreign tourneys.
On one hand, I think this has been beaten to death, on the other I just can't stand when people are calling Taeja better than Innovation, when all he ever did in Korea was two Ro4 in GSL. Surely, it still makes him probably top 10 Terran, if not more, but compared to Innovation's two GSL trophies, their head-to-head is a little too weak of an argument for proclaiming Taeja "maybe the strongest".
I am beating myself by proving that he won against the best Korenas? Please tell me how? These results are all-time. CJ HerO isnt a top Protoss? :\ Since when does a 5 Premier Tournamet champion, a SSL champion and a Kespa Cup champion (came 2nd once also) isnt one of the best protoss? :\ Maru is 13–14 (48.15%) in games and 6–8 (42.86%) in matches against herO. Oh, sorry, that's CJ herO? Use the proper capitalisation, if you don't tag the heroes by teams  Yeah, that's much more impressive. However it's still cherrypicking data.
It's not CJ herO. TaeJa is 1-5/1-3 against CJ herO. Regardless, it's still cherrypicking data. TaeJa's biggest nemesis on Aligulac is Flash and they aren't even close in terms of Starcraft 2 success. It's not worthless data but it's also not everything.
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France12886 Posts
On February 18 2016 21:39 dankobanana wrote:Maru vs Koreans Under these filters, Maru is 571–420 (57.62%) in games and 300–188 (61.48%) in matches. Taeja vs Koreans Under these filters, TaeJa is 858–576 (59.83%) in games and 384–206 (65.08%) in matches Innovation vs Koreans Under these filters, INnoVation is 603–334 (64.35%) in games and 302–134 (69.27%) in matches. Who played agains more koreans? Taeja. Inno has a better winrate for circa 30% less games, but Taeja OWNS Inno in head to head and the number of Premier Tournaments. So the argument that Taeja hasnt played agains enough Koreans is mute. You can challenge the fact that he didnt perform good enough in preparation style tournaments, but at what point that arguments looses its merit? When a head to head is so decisive for one player 
Since when head-to-head means anything? :o
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Taeja will forever stay overhyped in the mind of the masses, nothing can be done about that at this point.
In the end it's just the question how you value foreign tournaments vs korean ones, there are people who are reasonable like me ( ) and then there are people who think the weekend competition was almost as fierce as the GSL/SSL/OSL one.
Whatever 
I will just add that i don't think Taeja is mediocre or anything, he surely is a very skilled player, still overvalued though.
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On February 18 2016 21:47 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2016 21:39 dankobanana wrote:Maru vs Koreans Under these filters, Maru is 571–420 (57.62%) in games and 300–188 (61.48%) in matches. Taeja vs Koreans Under these filters, TaeJa is 858–576 (59.83%) in games and 384–206 (65.08%) in matches Innovation vs Koreans Under these filters, INnoVation is 603–334 (64.35%) in games and 302–134 (69.27%) in matches. Who played agains more koreans? Taeja. Inno has a better winrate for circa 30% less games, but Taeja OWNS Inno in head to head and the number of Premier Tournaments. So the argument that Taeja hasnt played agains enough Koreans is mute. You can challenge the fact that he didnt perform good enough in preparation style tournaments, but at what point that arguments looses its merit? When a head to head is so decisive for one player But playing "against koreans" and "in korea" was a very different metric back then, because a group of koreans played a lot against each other in the foreign tourneys. Surely, some of the really good ones came once in a while too, but the competition was nowhere as fierce as in Korea proper. It's like having a premier football team voluntarily descend to a local league and then boasting their record. The worst thing on it is that I have never ever heard Taeja even suggesting anything else, it's all done by his fanboys. He surely was a great player in his prime (and maybe he can even do something noteworthy now), he was the best in what he did, miles ahead from all the foreigners, but that's about it.
lol. I'm not a taeja's fun boy.
Was simply thinking to this period (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/460550-welcome-to-zparcraft-ii), just watch the tournament winners distribution in the article. Then you can still say that extra-korea tournaments are easier (and I agree), but being the only one who can win with a race is extremely impressive.
btw I don't wanna argue about stuff like these.
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United States23455 Posts
On February 18 2016 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:Taeja will forever stay overhyped in the mind of the masses, nothing can be done about that at this point. In the end it's just the question how you value foreign tournaments vs korean ones, there are people who are reasonable like me ( ) and then there are people who think the weekend competition was almost as fierce as the GSL/SSL/OSL one. Whatever I will just add that i don't think Taeja is mediocre or anything, he surely is a very skilled player, still overvalued though.
I don't know that anyone says weekend tournaments = GSL/SSL/OSL
I think there are some people that think if you win 11 OF THEM and finish top four at 13 MORE against some crazy competition you are really fucking good. One might say you have a more impressive pedigree than someone who has won say a single GSL
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On February 18 2016 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:Taeja will forever stay overhyped in the mind of the masses, nothing can be done about that at this point. In the end it's just the question how you value foreign tournaments vs korean ones, there are people who are reasonable like me ( ) and then there are people who think the weekend competition was almost as fierce as the GSL/SSL/OSL one. Whatever I will just add that i don't think Taeja is mediocre or anything, he surely is a very skilled player, still overvalued though.
But you need to take into account the fact that TaeJa simply didn't play those tournaments much if at all in the past few years so saying "oh he hasn't won a gsl" is a bit misleading because he just didn't play in those tournaments. Instead during his prime he chose to absolutely dominate the foreign tournament scene. What would his results of been like if he had been in Korea the whole time playing GSL/SSL/OSL? You can't reliably say just as I can't reliably say. And now in his first GSL in forever he's already made it to the round of 16. See what I'm saying? So your being "reasonable" isn't really all that reasonable when you think about it.
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On February 19 2016 01:31 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2016 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:Taeja will forever stay overhyped in the mind of the masses, nothing can be done about that at this point. In the end it's just the question how you value foreign tournaments vs korean ones, there are people who are reasonable like me ( ) and then there are people who think the weekend competition was almost as fierce as the GSL/SSL/OSL one. Whatever I will just add that i don't think Taeja is mediocre or anything, he surely is a very skilled player, still overvalued though. I don't know that anyone says weekend tournaments = GSL/SSL/OSL I think there are some people that think if you win 11 OF THEM and finish top four at 13 MORE against some crazy competition you are really fucking good. One might say you have a more impressive pedigree than someone who has won say a single GSL
And I meant just that.
This is a correct observation.
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On February 19 2016 01:36 Grizvok wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2016 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:Taeja will forever stay overhyped in the mind of the masses, nothing can be done about that at this point. In the end it's just the question how you value foreign tournaments vs korean ones, there are people who are reasonable like me ( ) and then there are people who think the weekend competition was almost as fierce as the GSL/SSL/OSL one. Whatever I will just add that i don't think Taeja is mediocre or anything, he surely is a very skilled player, still overvalued though. But you need to take into account the fact that TaeJa simply didn't play those tournaments much if at all in the past few years so saying "oh he hasn't won a gsl" is a bit misleading because he just didn't play in those tournaments. Instead during his prime he chose to absolutely dominate the foreign tournament scene. What would his results of been like if he had been in Korea the whole time playing GSL/SSL/OSL? You can't reliably say just as I can't reliably say. And now in his first GSL in forever he's already made it to the round of 16. See what I'm saying? So your being "reasonable" isn't really all the reasonable when you think about it.
Taeja at his peak was a 2 times GSL semifinalist vs BL/infestor. Both times eliminated by the tournament winner.
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On February 19 2016 01:51 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2016 01:36 Grizvok wrote:On February 18 2016 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:Taeja will forever stay overhyped in the mind of the masses, nothing can be done about that at this point. In the end it's just the question how you value foreign tournaments vs korean ones, there are people who are reasonable like me ( ) and then there are people who think the weekend competition was almost as fierce as the GSL/SSL/OSL one. Whatever I will just add that i don't think Taeja is mediocre or anything, he surely is a very skilled player, still overvalued though. But you need to take into account the fact that TaeJa simply didn't play those tournaments much if at all in the past few years so saying "oh he hasn't won a gsl" is a bit misleading because he just didn't play in those tournaments. Instead during his prime he chose to absolutely dominate the foreign tournament scene. What would his results of been like if he had been in Korea the whole time playing GSL/SSL/OSL? You can't reliably say just as I can't reliably say. And now in his first GSL in forever he's already made it to the round of 16. See what I'm saying? So your being "reasonable" isn't really all the reasonable when you think about it. Taeja at his peak was a 2 times GSL semifinalist vs BL/infestor. Both times eliminated by the tournament winner.
Yeah I wasn't really around then but I was speaking of his last 3~ish years where he simply didn't compete in GSL. Your point really just adds to what I was saying that calling TaeJa overhyped is nonsense when looking at the big picture.
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On February 19 2016 01:31 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2016 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:Taeja will forever stay overhyped in the mind of the masses, nothing can be done about that at this point. In the end it's just the question how you value foreign tournaments vs korean ones, there are people who are reasonable like me ( ) and then there are people who think the weekend competition was almost as fierce as the GSL/SSL/OSL one. Whatever I will just add that i don't think Taeja is mediocre or anything, he surely is a very skilled player, still overvalued though. I don't know that anyone says weekend tournaments = GSL/SSL/OSL I think there are some people that think if you win 11 OF THEM and finish top four at 13 MORE against some crazy competition you are really fucking good. One might say you have a more impressive pedigree than someone who has won say a single GSL
Which is why i said "almost"
Taeja is "really fucking good", i don't want to deny that, that doesn't mean that he isn't still overhyped though.
This "crazy competition" wasn't all that crazy if we compare it to korean tournaments. Yes he did beat a lot of great players on his runs, but there hardly were any tournaments where he had to play vs code s level opponents EVERY SINGLE ROUND iirc.
That's pretty much the sole reason why i simply cannot value his wins as much as constant good placement in code s for example.
Add to that that 'one of the greatest players' also should do well in both tournament formats (preparation based AND weekend) and you get to a point where it's imo at least arguable if taeja should be considered a top 5 player ever for example (i don't think so btw )
Feel free to tell me why i am wrong though, i enjoy discussing this topic,
On February 19 2016 01:36 Grizvok wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2016 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:Taeja will forever stay overhyped in the mind of the masses, nothing can be done about that at this point. In the end it's just the question how you value foreign tournaments vs korean ones, there are people who are reasonable like me ( ) and then there are people who think the weekend competition was almost as fierce as the GSL/SSL/OSL one. Whatever I will just add that i don't think Taeja is mediocre or anything, he surely is a very skilled player, still overvalued though. But you need to take into account the fact that TaeJa simply didn't play those tournaments much if at all in the past few years so saying "oh he hasn't won a gsl" is a bit misleading because he just didn't play in those tournaments. Instead during his prime he chose to absolutely dominate the foreign tournament scene. What would his results of been like if he had been in Korea the whole time playing GSL/SSL/OSL? You can't reliably say just as I can't reliably say. And now in his first GSL in forever he's already made it to the round of 16. See what I'm saying? So your being "reasonable" isn't really all that reasonable when you think about it.
So we should just assume that he would have done well in gsl/ssl/proleague? He did well at a very specific tournament structure (weekend) against lesser competition. He didn't win WCS either btw.
Again: I am not saying he is a bad or even mediocre player, he certainly is one of the better players in history. I simply don't think he is in the upper part of a top 10 list most likely
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Crazy competition at foreign tournaments? please. In some of them there was a very good lineup at the playoffs stages, but to get there was waaaay more easier than any korean tournament.
I think they key is that in Korean tournaments you face hard opponents since the beginning, thus you have to be consistently good in all stages. While in foreign tournaments you had to be really good only in the playoffs when the easier opponents have been bleed out, and just for a few days that those tournaments span.
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On February 19 2016 01:58 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2016 01:31 Darkhorse wrote:On February 18 2016 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:Taeja will forever stay overhyped in the mind of the masses, nothing can be done about that at this point. In the end it's just the question how you value foreign tournaments vs korean ones, there are people who are reasonable like me ( ) and then there are people who think the weekend competition was almost as fierce as the GSL/SSL/OSL one. Whatever I will just add that i don't think Taeja is mediocre or anything, he surely is a very skilled player, still overvalued though. I don't know that anyone says weekend tournaments = GSL/SSL/OSL I think there are some people that think if you win 11 OF THEM and finish top four at 13 MORE against some crazy competition you are really fucking good. One might say you have a more impressive pedigree than someone who has won say a single GSL Which is why i said "almost" Taeja is "really fucking good", i don't want to deny that, that doesn't mean that he isn't still overhyped though. This "crazy competition" wasn't all that crazy if we compare it to korean tournaments. Yes he did beat a lot of great players on his runs, but there hardly were any tournaments where he had to play vs code s level opponents EVERY SINGLE ROUND iirc. That's pretty much the sole reason why i simply cannot value his wins as much as constant good placement in code s for example. Add to that that 'one of the greatest players' also should do well in both tournament formats (preparation based AND weekend) and you get to a point where it's imo at least arguable if taeja should be considered a top 5 player ever for example (i don't think so btw ) Feel free to tell me why i am wrong though, i enjoy discussing this topic, Show nested quote +On February 19 2016 01:36 Grizvok wrote:On February 18 2016 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:Taeja will forever stay overhyped in the mind of the masses, nothing can be done about that at this point. In the end it's just the question how you value foreign tournaments vs korean ones, there are people who are reasonable like me ( ) and then there are people who think the weekend competition was almost as fierce as the GSL/SSL/OSL one. Whatever I will just add that i don't think Taeja is mediocre or anything, he surely is a very skilled player, still overvalued though. But you need to take into account the fact that TaeJa simply didn't play those tournaments much if at all in the past few years so saying "oh he hasn't won a gsl" is a bit misleading because he just didn't play in those tournaments. Instead during his prime he chose to absolutely dominate the foreign tournament scene. What would his results of been like if he had been in Korea the whole time playing GSL/SSL/OSL? You can't reliably say just as I can't reliably say. And now in his first GSL in forever he's already made it to the round of 16. See what I'm saying? So your being "reasonable" isn't really all that reasonable when you think about it. So we should just assume that he would have done well in gsl/ssl/proleague? He did well at a very specific tournament structure (weekend) against lesser competition. He didn't win WCS either btw. Again: I am not saying he is a bad or even mediocre player, he certainly is one of the better players in history. I simply don't think he is in the upper part of a top 10 list most likely
Except you just had someone say he was a two time GSL semi-finalist in WoL or are you conveniently forgetting that/not reading it?
You are just as much assuming he would have done poorly.
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United States23455 Posts
On February 19 2016 01:58 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2016 01:31 Darkhorse wrote:On February 18 2016 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:Taeja will forever stay overhyped in the mind of the masses, nothing can be done about that at this point. In the end it's just the question how you value foreign tournaments vs korean ones, there are people who are reasonable like me ( ) and then there are people who think the weekend competition was almost as fierce as the GSL/SSL/OSL one. Whatever I will just add that i don't think Taeja is mediocre or anything, he surely is a very skilled player, still overvalued though. I don't know that anyone says weekend tournaments = GSL/SSL/OSL I think there are some people that think if you win 11 OF THEM and finish top four at 13 MORE against some crazy competition you are really fucking good. One might say you have a more impressive pedigree than someone who has won say a single GSL Feel free to tell me why i am wrong though, i enjoy discussing this topic,
As do I. I think you are one of the better posters on these forums, and I enjoy discussing SC2 with you even though we fairly frequently disagree now then...
Which is why i said "almost" Taeja is "really fucking good", i don't want to deny that, that doesn't mean that he isn't still overhyped though.
I feel this. I really do. I get annoyed by certain players not because I dislike the players, but because I dislike the overhype provided by their fans (AND THE CASTERS/PERSONALITIES WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER cough cough jesus do people hype JD too much among other players). But when looking at it objectively, you have to put aside the fact that fans will be fans.
This "crazy competition" wasn't all that crazy if we compare it to korean tournaments. Yes he did beat a lot of great players on his runs, but there hardly were any tournaments where he had to play vs code s level opponents EVERY SINGLE ROUND iirc.
Well idk mang. "Code S level" is pretty much a moving target. Very frequently mediocre players make Code S while others are relegated based on bad luck in Code A (this season Seed/Forte in Code S, Inno, sOs, Maru in Code A, etc. ) Anyway that is not really on topic. Back to Taeja!
At IEM Shenzhen he did consecutively beat MMA, Life, Zest, JD, and then Solar in the final. At DH Winter he beat, in order, Inno, sOs, Sjow (lol), ForGG (who's TvT has always been very good), HerO, MMA, and Life twice. DH Bucharest saw him beat Avenge and Symbol in groups (Code S in that year), then Yugioh, sOs, Life, and Inno in bracket. Yeah I'm not gonna say his HSC's are GSL caliber but it's not like he has played foreigners into winning a bunch of DHs. Also he dd make Ro4 in Code S twice (during brood lord infestor) and lost to Life and Roro respectively (who both eventually won).
That's pretty much the sole reason why i simply cannot value his wins as much as constant good placement in code s for example.
Almost no one has constant good placement in Code S. The roller coaster that is Code S is pretty punishing. Taeja actually has a pretty reasonable Code S streak to his name (six in a row) but honestly Code S streaks are a pretty bad metric for measuring good players. Gumiho, Symbol, Curious, and CLIDE all have longer Code S streaks than Taeja, but certainly even you wouldn't say they are better than Taeja overall
That's pretty much the sole reason why i simply cannot value his wins as much as constant good placement in code s for example.
Add to that that 'one of the greatest players' also should do well in both tournament formats (preparation based AND weekend)
Seemingly the only player to truly look great in both was Mvp (who coincidentally is considered the best of all time). Nestea only ever won his GSL's then did nothing for years. MC had a TWO YEAR tournament drought despite the fact that he went to sooooooo many tournaments. Most other players simply didn't win a high enough volume of tournaments (players like DRG/Leenock/Parting) or haven't had a long enough career (Soulkey/Inno/Zest/sOs/etc).
and you get to a point where it's imo at least arguable if taeja should be considered a top 5 player ever for example (i don't think so btw )
I'd love to hear your top 10! I think Taeja belongs in the top 5 myself but I am open to other opinions.
Also I didn't mention team leagues but my god IPL TAC 3. I was losing my mind the whole time I was watching and I'm not even a Taeja superfan.
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Of course winning foreign tournaments isn't the same as winning korean tournaments which is the reason TaeJa is not on the level of Mvp/Life but he didn't only beat the best players in the world at some weekend tournaments, the most impressive thing was HOW he won. I have never in the history of sc2 seen a player as dominant as TaeJa in his peak imo he was the most skilled player of all time.
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France12886 Posts
Reading this history of TaeJa I realize that the player who is (was?) actually overhyped is Life, how could have he been beaten so many times by a terran during those eras x).
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The right people advanced from this group. For me at least.
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On February 19 2016 06:49 Poopi wrote:
Reading this history of TaeJa I realize that the player who is (was?) actually overhyped is Life, how could have he been beaten so many times by a terran during those eras x).
Excuse me, to which story do you refer?
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France12886 Posts
On February 19 2016 07:25 mammuluk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2016 06:49 Poopi wrote:
Reading this history of TaeJa I realize that the player who is (was?) actually overhyped is Life, how could have he been beaten so many times by a terran during those eras x).
Excuse me, to which story do you refer?
Darkobanana and Darkhorse, mainly
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On February 19 2016 03:06 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2016 01:58 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 19 2016 01:31 Darkhorse wrote:On February 18 2016 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:Taeja will forever stay overhyped in the mind of the masses, nothing can be done about that at this point. In the end it's just the question how you value foreign tournaments vs korean ones, there are people who are reasonable like me ( ) and then there are people who think the weekend competition was almost as fierce as the GSL/SSL/OSL one. Whatever I will just add that i don't think Taeja is mediocre or anything, he surely is a very skilled player, still overvalued though. I don't know that anyone says weekend tournaments = GSL/SSL/OSL I think there are some people that think if you win 11 OF THEM and finish top four at 13 MORE against some crazy competition you are really fucking good. One might say you have a more impressive pedigree than someone who has won say a single GSL Feel free to tell me why i am wrong though, i enjoy discussing this topic, As do I. I think you are one of the better posters on these forums, and I enjoy discussing SC2 with you even though we fairly frequently disagree now then...
The last time we disagreed was a while ago, no? I already saw you made some good points, i will try to adress them :D
I feel this. I really do. I get annoyed by certain players not because I dislike the players, but because I dislike the overhype provided by their fans (AND THE CASTERS/PERSONALITIES WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER cough cough jesus do people hype JD too much among other players). But when looking at it objectively, you have to put aside the fact that fans will be fans.
I mean i am a big JD fan () but i also know that he isn't really anywhere near the level of the top koreans. That's definitely not true for Taeja, he surely is up there. I simply feel that in general people value his achievements too much. Yes he won eleven premier tournaments, but at the end of the day quite a lot of them were not even close to high competition tbh.
HSC comes to mind. Others too.
Well idk mang. "Code S level" is pretty much a moving target. Very frequently mediocre players make Code S while others are relegated based on bad luck in Code A (this season Seed/Forte in Code S, Inno, sOs, Maru in Code A, etc. ) Anyway that is not really on topic. Back to Taeja!
At IEM Shenzhen he did consecutively beat MMA, Life, Zest, JD, and then Solar in the final. At DH Winter he beat, in order, Inno, sOs, Sjow (lol), ForGG (who's TvT has always been very good), HerO, MMA, and Life twice. DH Bucharest saw him beat Avenge and Symbol in groups (Code S in that year), then Yugioh, sOs, Life, and Inno in bracket. Yeah I'm not gonna say his HSC's are GSL caliber but it's not like he has played foreigners into winning a bunch of DHs. Also he dd make Ro4 in Code S twice (during brood lord infestor) and lost to Life and Roro respectively (who both eventually won).
I don't mean the current code s at any time, more like the players who pretty much everybody defines as s class.
Maru isn't in code s this season, but i am sure we can agree that he is an s class player nonetheless overall.
"form is temporary, class is permanent"
I am sure that Taeja won tournaments which are close to the quality of korean starleagues (but you also have to keep in mind that it isn't only about the players he actually had to beat, it's about the quality of the whole field. Example: Take the code s players of some 'stable season' and let them play 100 code s tournaments, i am sure there will be quite a lot of variance in outcomes because they quite closely matched. Now do the same with the weekend tournaments (even the ones who are somewhat close to starleagues) and there probably won't be that much variance because there are always only a handful of the code s level players there (on average, there surely are exceptions))
Almost no one has constant good placement in Code S. The roller coaster that is Code S is pretty punishing. Taeja actually has a pretty reasonable Code S streak to his name (six in a row) but honestly Code S streaks are a pretty bad metric for measuring good players. Gumiho, Symbol, Curious, and CLIDE all have longer Code S streaks than Taeja, but certainly even you wouldn't say they are better than Taeja overall
That's pretty much the sole reason why i simply cannot value his wins as much as constant good placement in code s for example.
I am more talking about code s results over the career. taeja has eleven premier wins and semis in code s.
What about players who stayed in korea and made ro8 several times, maybe semis here and there? (in a much more competetive era, kespa switch, etc) Sure they didn't win (or maybe they even did), but the accomplishment is imo fairly similar tbh. What about doing well in proleague?
Seemingly the only player to truly look great in both was Mvp (who coincidentally is considered the best of all time). Nestea only ever won his GSL's then did nothing for years. MC had a TWO YEAR tournament drought despite the fact that he went to sooooooo many tournaments. Most other players simply didn't win a high enough volume of tournaments (players like DRG/Leenock/Parting) or haven't had a long enough career (Soulkey/Inno/Zest/sOs/etc).
Life comes to mind as well. I agree that the likes of Zest, etc obviously didn't win many weekend tournaments, but that's also due to the fact that most kespa players don't travel to every single one of them^^ Zest played in 6 weekend tournaments (if we include blizzcon) in the span of two years, he won one and got second in another.
The point is that these s class players didn't really have the same chances to win these weekend tournaments, but yeah that's obviously not the fault of taeja :D I still think the argument of "lesser competetion" is true though.
I'd love to hear your top 10! I think Taeja belongs in the top 5 myself but I am open to other opinions.
Also I didn't mention team leagues but my god IPL TAC 3. I was losing my mind the whole time I was watching and I'm not even a Taeja superfan.
I actually don't know. Mvp, Life, probably Maru somewhere in the top 5 too. Would need to think about it.
IPL TAC 3 is a pretty good result, but what about proleague or gstl? Taeja had a pretty bad record in the egtl season iirc.
Again, i absolutely don't want to say that Taeja's titles aren't worth anything or something similar absurd, but yes i think his record breaking success in premier tournaments was only possible because the competition there typically wasn't even close to korean starleagues. Which makes it harder for me to swallow his appearance in the upper parts of any "greatest of all time lists"
Maybe this code s season can change my opinion , i doubt he will make it far though. (or even through next group stage)
On February 19 2016 02:08 Grizvok wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2016 01:58 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 19 2016 01:31 Darkhorse wrote:On February 18 2016 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:Taeja will forever stay overhyped in the mind of the masses, nothing can be done about that at this point. In the end it's just the question how you value foreign tournaments vs korean ones, there are people who are reasonable like me ( ) and then there are people who think the weekend competition was almost as fierce as the GSL/SSL/OSL one. Whatever I will just add that i don't think Taeja is mediocre or anything, he surely is a very skilled player, still overvalued though. I don't know that anyone says weekend tournaments = GSL/SSL/OSL I think there are some people that think if you win 11 OF THEM and finish top four at 13 MORE against some crazy competition you are really fucking good. One might say you have a more impressive pedigree than someone who has won say a single GSL Which is why i said "almost" Taeja is "really fucking good", i don't want to deny that, that doesn't mean that he isn't still overhyped though. This "crazy competition" wasn't all that crazy if we compare it to korean tournaments. Yes he did beat a lot of great players on his runs, but there hardly were any tournaments where he had to play vs code s level opponents EVERY SINGLE ROUND iirc. That's pretty much the sole reason why i simply cannot value his wins as much as constant good placement in code s for example. Add to that that 'one of the greatest players' also should do well in both tournament formats (preparation based AND weekend) and you get to a point where it's imo at least arguable if taeja should be considered a top 5 player ever for example (i don't think so btw ) Feel free to tell me why i am wrong though, i enjoy discussing this topic, On February 19 2016 01:36 Grizvok wrote:On February 18 2016 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:Taeja will forever stay overhyped in the mind of the masses, nothing can be done about that at this point. In the end it's just the question how you value foreign tournaments vs korean ones, there are people who are reasonable like me ( ) and then there are people who think the weekend competition was almost as fierce as the GSL/SSL/OSL one. Whatever I will just add that i don't think Taeja is mediocre or anything, he surely is a very skilled player, still overvalued though. But you need to take into account the fact that TaeJa simply didn't play those tournaments much if at all in the past few years so saying "oh he hasn't won a gsl" is a bit misleading because he just didn't play in those tournaments. Instead during his prime he chose to absolutely dominate the foreign tournament scene. What would his results of been like if he had been in Korea the whole time playing GSL/SSL/OSL? You can't reliably say just as I can't reliably say. And now in his first GSL in forever he's already made it to the round of 16. See what I'm saying? So your being "reasonable" isn't really all that reasonable when you think about it. So we should just assume that he would have done well in gsl/ssl/proleague? He did well at a very specific tournament structure (weekend) against lesser competition. He didn't win WCS either btw. Again: I am not saying he is a bad or even mediocre player, he certainly is one of the better players in history. I simply don't think he is in the upper part of a top 10 list most likely Except you just had someone say he was a two time GSL semi-finalist in WoL or are you conveniently forgetting that/not reading it? You are just as much assuming he would have done poorly.
Ok he made it to the semis in less competetive times. Great, i will give him that. I don't value these the same as the last x starleagues though, for imo obvious reasons.
I don't assume anything, the simple fact is that he didn't do well because he didn't even compete. He didn't even perform well against way easier opponents in wcs america.
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What I get from reading your posts Viper is that Preparation >>>>>>> Off the Cuss Execution. You devalue the skill needed to be able to win on the fly against varying styles and builds rather than practice for 3-4 from one player.
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EPT
