With the next Blizzard map making contest on the horizon, what better time to test some new maps? On Tuesday 9th February from 5pm CET, we will be hosting a series of show-matches to show off some of the more recent maps from three community map makers: Avex, Albatross and Kantuva. Sponsored by mYinsanity, each match will be a Best of 5 for $45 (30 to the winner, 15 to the loser). Additionally, a prize of $25 will be awarded to the mapmaker whose map wins the community voting for best map!
I selected these maps pretty much just based on maps I've seen recently and liked / had a hand in testing. If I do this again I'll probably open it to submissions ^^
Thank you very much for doing this PengWin, this is what non-WCS tournament organizers need to do. Next step is doing a tournament with non-ladder maps.
On February 08 2016 23:01 neo0 wrote: Why do Avex and Alba have maps in this contest? Kantuva is on another level and I feel like this ruins his reputation.
I explained a bit above that I picked maps based on ones that I've seen recently and liked, and been involved in the testing of. Avex has done a great job marketing himself and his maps (something that many other mapmakers have been absolutely awful at doing), and so has had a lot of visibility around his (example: Purified Forge and Detox being used by BaseTrade). Albatross's maps have had signifitant testing by high level players including myself, Rayreign, Smile, Demilove and MCanning, and all of us have decided that we like the maps. As for Kantuva's reputation being "ruined," I asked him up front whether he would be interested in having his maps used, and gave him the list of maps I was going to be using and he was more than happy to have his take part.
I've already said that I will likely open this for submissions in the future, but given that I came up with this idea literally days ago and wanted to have it done before the deadline for the Blizzard Mapmaking Contest (10th), there wasn't really any time to have open submissions and for me to review them all, so I went with the ones I knew.
There is no reason to be a gigantic douchebag hiding behind a newly created account.
On February 08 2016 23:22 PengWin_SC wrote: (something that many other mapmakers have been absolutely awful at doing)
This is probaly because there isn't a way for a humble mapmaker to get populairity. The only way to get noticed for your mapmaking, without the pressence of a tournament or another community member promoting you, is by being very aggressive, which could easely make the public view you as a nuisance or obnoxious.
On February 08 2016 23:22 PengWin_SC wrote: (something that many other mapmakers have been absolutely awful at doing)
This is probaly because there isn't a way for a humble mapmaker to get populairity. The only way to get noticed for your mapmaking, without the pressence of a tournament or another community member promoting you, is by being very aggressive, which could easely make the public view you as a nuisance or obnoxious.
I don't really agree. It would be seen as obnoxious if you posted a map on Reddit like 6 times, but posting a new map that's just been completed shouldn't annoy anybody. That's the first step for sure. A lot can be learned from the way Avex does things, even if you think it's obnoxious to go around posting your stuff. At the end of the day, people know his work because he posts it on Reddit, and his maps have ended up being streamed by BaseTrade, Scarlett and State recently. I can't really say the same for anybody else except that I saw Antheia on Reddit as well, which prompted me to look more into Kantuva's recent stuff and include it.
On February 08 2016 23:22 PengWin_SC wrote: (something that many other mapmakers have been absolutely awful at doing)
This is probaly because there isn't a way for a humble mapmaker to get populairity. The only way to get noticed for your mapmaking, without the pressence of a tournament or another community member promoting you, is by being very aggressive, which could easely make the public view you as a nuisance or obnoxious.
if i was a map maker truly passionate about a map and not wanting to be obnoxious about spam and being a social media hero i'd do the following: A) save up money from work or find sponsors to throw a $100-125 tournament with bo1's/bo3 semis&finals where all games are set to be played on this ONE map. i think this is important because it's hard for players to learn a full map pool of 7 maps at once. putting your event on a quiet date with 3-4 days advance notice helps. EU events have the highest turnout and viewership so that's the best thing to aim for.
(yes i know money absolutely sucks, but that's how it works if you want to kickstart something without an existing follower base or major interest, think of it as drink money for a launch party i guess ... or an expensive frame and rental spot for your painting at the local gallery. if it is your dream to have people play your map at least once then this is a very real way to do it - we all know blizzard won't just randomly add good maps to their 3month ladderpools so might as well let having your map in the ladder be a lottery win type of dream and focus on small steps)
B) contact BaseTradeTV, SC2Improve, etc and see if one of them can cast the event C) Make a reddit thread and start posting there, even if it sux and even if you don't have an account, just DO iT D) TL thread and adding event to calendar asap E) post a tweet with a gfx including link to the map/tournament signup that people easily can RT ... etc etc ...
very few people are going to play custom maps without there being some special event to it i think, that's why custom maps have been limited to GSL, proleague and foreign showmatches mostly. sorry if this post offends anyone ala "lolol u want me to spend money after putting in 50 hours of mapmaking work" type of thing, i think it's constructive and a good idea to do something like this if you want maps played
@PengWin When I read the term marketing, I had a very different semantic in mind than just posting your map on reddit a few times. He is defintely not the only one who does that, which is why I find it so very strange you mention that other mapmakers aren't doing that. However, the past two weeks have been different with many mapmakers working behind closed doors, so I can see where the confusion stems from. Moreover, getting your maps streamed is different from marketing yourself. It's signifies having someone else market you. Well, the difference shouldn't be relevant. Unless those people ignore you on multiple occasions.
On February 09 2016 01:37 Sanglune wrote: @PengWin When I read the term marketing, I had a very different semantic in mind than just posting your map on reddit a few times. He is defintely not the only one who does that, which is why I find it so very strange you mention that other mapmakers aren't doing that. However, the past two weeks have been different with many mapmakers working behind closed doors, so I can see where the confusion stems from. Moreover, getting your maps streamed is different from marketing yourself. It's signifies having someone else market you. Well, the difference shouldn't be relevant. Unless those people ignore you on multiple occasions.
Whatever the reasoning is, fact is that Avex's maps have been far more in the public eye recently. I also just did a quick search on Reddit, and with the exception of some by Meavis, there hasn't been a single post that wasn't made by Avex or Kantuva in 2016, unless for some reason people have been posting them without labelling them as a map. With LotV having come out relatively recently, I don't want to go way back and start taking maps that were made with Heart of the Swarm in mind.
On February 08 2016 23:22 PengWin_SC wrote: (something that many other mapmakers have been absolutely awful at doing)
This is probaly because there isn't a way for a humble mapmaker to get populairity. The only way to get noticed for your mapmaking, without the pressence of a tournament or another community member promoting you, is by being very aggressive, which could easely make the public view you as a nuisance or obnoxious.
if i was a map maker truly passionate about a map and not wanting to be obnoxious about spam and being a social media hero i'd do the following: A) save up money from work or find sponsors to throw a $100-125 tournament with bo1's/bo3 semis&finals where all games are set to be played on this ONE map. i think this is important because it's hard for players to learn a full map pool of 7 maps at once. putting your event on a quiet date with 3-4 days advance notice helps. EU events have the highest turnout and viewership so that's the best thing to aim for.
(yes i know money absolutely sucks, but that's how it works if you want to kickstart something without an existing follower base or major interest, think of it as drink money for a launch party i guess ... or an expensive frame and rental spot for your painting at the local gallery. if it is your dream to have people play your map at least once then this is a very real way to do it - we all know blizzard won't just randomly add good maps to their 3month ladderpools so might as well let having your map in the ladder be a lottery win type of dream and focus on small steps)
B) contact BaseTradeTV, SC2Improve, etc and see if one of them can cast the event C) Make a reddit thread and start posting there, even if it sux and even if you don't have an account, just DO iT D) TL thread and adding event to calendar asap E) post a tweet with a gfx including link to the map/tournament signup that people easily can RT ... etc etc ...
very few people are going to play custom maps without there being some special event to it i think, that's why custom maps have been limited to GSL, proleague and foreign showmatches mostly. sorry if this post offends anyone ala "lolol u want me to spend money after putting in 50 hours of mapmaking work" type of thing, i think it's constructive and a good idea to do something like this if you want maps played
This is one way of doing it, but the problem is that it is not a consistent solution. Most mapmakes do it as a hobby, so going all-out is a radical switch in angle of operating. Not everyone has money lying around either, so this solution is not for everyone. But even if it was, it is an extremely risky undertaking. There is no guarantee that the influence will transfer beyond the map to the mapmaker and his other maps or gets picked up by another tournament. Most people will see it as a one-off and nobody will play customs on it anyway (which is probaly one of the biggest factors).
On February 09 2016 01:37 Sanglune wrote: @PengWin When I read the term marketing, I had a very different semantic in mind than just posting your map on reddit a few times. He is defintely not the only one who does that, which is why I find it so very strange you mention that other mapmakers aren't doing that. However, the past two weeks have been different with many mapmakers working behind closed doors, so I can see where the confusion stems from. Moreover, getting your maps streamed is different from marketing yourself. It's signifies having someone else market you. Well, the difference shouldn't be relevant. Unless those people ignore you on multiple occasions.
Whatever the reasoning is, fact is that Avex's maps have been far more in the public eye recently. I also just did a quick search on Reddit, and with the exception of some by Meavis, there hasn't been a single post that wasn't made by Avex or Kantuva in 2016, unless for some reason people have been posting them without labelling them as a map. With LotV having come out relatively recently, I don't want to go way back and start taking maps that were made with Heart of the Swarm in mind.
One of the biggest problems is the scarsity of quality LotV maps right now. Many of the early LotV maps were made on the basis of techniques of HotS. It is only natural for there to be so few posts, because quality maps take time and a lot of frequent reviews with breaks inbetween. Moreover, posting my maps in literaly the last week of 2015 or streaming mapmaking seems not to have been the best course of action I suppose.
first of all I want to say that by throwing up this without any consideration of the mapmaking scene you have greatly disrespected me and other mapmakers.
then again, the mapmaking scene is in a very poor situation and I'll welcome any efforts to publicize maps
On February 08 2016 23:22 PengWin_SC wrote: (something that many other mapmakers have been absolutely awful at doing)
This is probaly because there isn't a way for a humble mapmaker to get populairity. The only way to get noticed for your mapmaking, without the pressence of a tournament or another community member promoting you, is by being very aggressive, which could easely make the public view you as a nuisance or obnoxious.
I don't really agree. It would be seen as obnoxious if you posted a map on Reddit like 6 times, but posting a new map that's just been completed shouldn't annoy anybody. That's the first step for sure. A lot can be learned from the way Avex does things, even if you think it's obnoxious to go around posting your stuff. At the end of the day, people know his work because he posts it on Reddit, and his maps have ended up being streamed by BaseTrade, Scarlett and State recently. I can't really say the same for anybody else except that I saw Antheia on Reddit as well, which prompted me to look more into Kantuva's recent stuff and include it.
except theres many out there that that have been posting their maps for YEARS and YEARS without ANY results at all, you are completely disconnected from the realities in the mapmaking scene, giving us advice on what to do is just arrogant.
On February 09 2016 01:14 Liquid`Snute wrote: if i was a map maker truly passionate about a map and not wanting to be obnoxious about spam and being a social media hero i'd do the following: A) save up money from work or find sponsors to throw a $100-125 tournament with bo1's/bo3 semis&finals where all games are set to be played on this ONE map. i think this is important because it's hard for players to learn a full map pool of 7 maps at once. putting your event on a quiet date with 3-4 days advance notice helps. EU events have the highest turnout and viewership so that's the best thing to aim for.
(yes i know money absolutely sucks, but that's how it works if you want to kickstart something without an existing follower base or major interest, think of it as drink money for a launch party i guess ... or an expensive frame and rental spot for your painting at the local gallery. if it is your dream to have people play your map at least once then this is a very real way to do it - we all know blizzard won't just randomly add good maps to their 3month ladderpools so might as well let having your map in the ladder be a lottery win type of dream and focus on small steps)
B) contact BaseTradeTV, SC2Improve, etc and see if one of them can cast the event C) Make a reddit thread and start posting there, even if it sux and even if you don't have an account, just DO iT D) TL thread and adding event to calendar asap E) post a tweet with a gfx including link to the map/tournament signup that people easily can RT ... etc etc ...
very few people are going to play custom maps without there being some special event to it i think, that's why custom maps have been limited to GSL, proleague and foreign showmatches mostly. sorry if this post offends anyone ala "lolol u want me to spend money after putting in 50 hours of mapmaking work" type of thing, i think it's constructive and a good idea to do something like this if you want maps played
there are few mapmakers who have that wealth at their disposal, keep in mind that making a good map is also very time intensive, to also pay for and organize a cup for your maps, which unless you're already famous, which none of the mapmakers are, will just end up with no publicity.
basetradeTV are not interested in working with any mapmaker but avex for some odd reason, they don't even want to as much as talk to us.
and just to repeat, posting your maps on forums for publicity does NOTHING.
Very pleased this event is happening, happy for Avex who's been working hard for visibility, and it shows.
I don't think there's anything wrong with SC2Improve using maps from just people they know. Plus there's the benefit of seeing Albatross's maps, as I didn't even know they existed.
Next time, build some hype by putting up a poll for your viewers to pick maps!
I like the thought, but some of these maps are no better than this season's ladder maps. I don't think it would have been very difficult or time-consuming to communicate with more mapmakers to get a better pool for this.
thanks for doing this and please don't let a cabal of self styled mapping elites bring you down. certain people will find any excuse they can to take offense that the world isn't validating their efforts and declaring them the creative kings of the scene
i respect mappers for what they do and understand their desire for exposure and recognition, but you are creating the event you want to create and honestly absolutely nothing entitles any one user to be included. if mappers want to be involved by you they should show respect and show interest in working together rather than trying to create a psychotic narrative that makes you morally wrong for organizing it
if you organized a paid showmatch between low GM ladder players, would you be morally wrong for not including players who are closer to pro level and "need" the money more? no. you can put on any kind of show you choose with your personal time and efforts, and people can agree or disagree with their viewership and with comments that aren't belligerent and arrogant
imo Templar has been quite respectful and constructive in disagreeing here and there's no reason for others not to follow suit
But anyways, I'm looking forward to some nice games! I'm actually particularly interested on Avex island map, players will dislike it and Liberator builds will probably reign supreme, but I'm very looking forward to seeing some games there!
On February 09 2016 03:17 Xenotolerance wrote: Next time, build some hype by putting up a poll for your viewers to pick maps!
Also, I think this could be a very nice solution to all the drama, even when a sizeable chunk of the population vote on visuals alone it is a very nice way to build expectations for the tournament and maps!
Excited for any future tourneys that will consider submissions from all mapmakers.
And yes as someone said it is his tourney / money and he can do w/e he wants, so you can't really be bitter or anything. Just like there was some guy named Incubus a few years ago that held a tourney for his own maps. They weren't good at all but he had a little cash so there you go. I wish I could do the same but it's hard to justify that kind of thing when you're supporting other ppl besides yourself financially.
Truth is while he may not be the absolute very best mapmaker yet (although some of his maps are very good), Avex has been making more effort than the rest of us lately to gain visibility and that is our faults for not also trying similarly. (Then again it can be tiresome and you feel like you're annoying everyone if you post for visibility all the time so I guess I can see the other argument a little.)
On February 09 2016 04:33 Fatam wrote: Excited for any future tourneys that will consider submissions from all mapmakers.
And yes as someone said it is his tourney / money and he can do w/e he wants, so you can't really be bitter or anything. Just like there was some guy named Incubus a few years ago that held a tourney for his own maps. They weren't good at all but he had a little cash so there you go. I wish I could do the same but it's hard to justify that kind of thing when you're supporting other ppl besides yourself financially.
Truth is while he may not be the absolute very best mapmaker yet (although some of his maps are very good), Avex has been making more effort than the rest of us lately to gain visibility and that is our faults for not also trying similarly. (Then again it can be tiresome and you feel like you're annoying everyone if you post for visibility all the time so I guess I can see the other argument a little.)
Yep, the visibility I'm fortunate to have is something I take very seriously and carefully. I frequent certain channels, and always make sure I'm not flooding their chats or anything, fortunately they enjoy my work and are okay with me posting those links. I've been figuring out when and where to post pretty quickly and if that's abused, or figured out by others, it would hurt all mapmakers instead of help them. I can think of plenty of ways on how to advertise maps and they all require a bit of work to put in.
On February 09 2016 03:17 Xenotolerance wrote: Very pleased this event is happening, happy for Avex who's been working hard for visibility, and it shows.
On February 09 2016 02:17 Meavis wrote: first of all I want to say that by throwing up this without any consideration of the mapmaking scene you have greatly disrespected me and other mapmakers.
stop taking things so personally, sure i'm a bit annoyed i didn't get to submit maps, but implying that pengwin is intentionally trying to screw over mapmakers is ridiculous.
for the record: making a map takes a significant amount of time and work, so a lot of mapmakers (myself included) often only finish a map's texturing/decorating process if there's a chance that it will actually be used, even if we have a lot of layouts/ideas lying around. so yes, it can be frustrating if there's an opportunity like this, but with no "preparation time" to finish things up and publish.
however that isn't a valid reason to criticize pengwin, who has no obligation to the mapmaking community and doesn't even follow it closely or know how it operates, or those people (uvantak/avexyli) who have put in the extra effort to consistently post maps (although i have absolutely no clue how albatross's maps even got found in the first place lol, honestly i don't think they're tournament ready).
it would be great if future showmatches have open map submissions, but pengwin already said that's probably happening, so again, no reason to complain.
On February 08 2016 23:22 PengWin_SC wrote: (something that many other mapmakers have been absolutely awful at doing)
This is probaly because there isn't a way for a humble mapmaker to get populairity. The only way to get noticed for your mapmaking, without the pressence of a tournament or another community member promoting you, is by being very aggressive, which could easely make the public view you as a nuisance or obnoxious.
if i was a map maker truly passionate about a map and not wanting to be obnoxious about spam and being a social media hero i'd do the following: A) save up money from work or find sponsors to throw a $100-125 tournament with bo1's/bo3 semis&finals where all games are set to be played on this ONE map. i think this is important because it's hard for players to learn a full map pool of 7 maps at once. putting your event on a quiet date with 3-4 days advance notice helps. EU events have the highest turnout and viewership so that's the best thing to aim for.
(yes i know money absolutely sucks, but that's how it works if you want to kickstart something without an existing follower base or major interest, think of it as drink money for a launch party i guess ... or an expensive frame and rental spot for your painting at the local gallery. if it is your dream to have people play your map at least once then this is a very real way to do it - we all know blizzard won't just randomly add good maps to their 3month ladderpools so might as well let having your map in the ladder be a lottery win type of dream and focus on small steps)
B) contact BaseTradeTV, SC2Improve, etc and see if one of them can cast the event C) Make a reddit thread and start posting there, even if it sux and even if you don't have an account, just DO iT D) TL thread and adding event to calendar asap E) post a tweet with a gfx including link to the map/tournament signup that people easily can RT ... etc etc ...
very few people are going to play custom maps without there being some special event to it i think, that's why custom maps have been limited to GSL, proleague and foreign showmatches mostly. sorry if this post offends anyone ala "lolol u want me to spend money after putting in 50 hours of mapmaking work" type of thing, i think it's constructive and a good idea to do something like this if you want maps played
ilu snute but this isn't a solution.
(A) Hedging your bets on a single map is a poor strategy to get your map on the ladder. This is because of the randomness of map contests which are the vehicle for getting maps on the ladder. Investing that amount of money/effort only for it to be knocked back really really sucks. See: Emerald Plaza as an example of this strategy failing (well, at least IeZaeL has more than one map but the point is that map got played quite a bit and was showered with praise from the community).
(B) The created:accepted ratio of maps is massively skewed towards the created side. And that's okay, maps are difficult to get right and some concepts should never make far. But at the same time it takes experience to just let a concept/map go and move onto something else. It's very common to see people pushing to see a particular map get played when realistically the map has no place in a competitive ladder pool.
(C) Even if we assume that we have a good candidate map and we're happy going all in on the candidate map, it's questionable whether one tournament would be sufficient to get the data required to make a map good. During TLMC revision periods we have to extensively iterate on possible solutions and make best guesses as to which direction leads to the best play. One tournament can show that an existing problem exists, it takes a second tournament to know if that's been fixed and possibly more to iterate. It's unfortunately a poor way of developing maps.
Having been involved in the map revision process for a while now, I think TL does a pretty good job ironing out obvious problems with maps and getting them to a tournament-ready state. Blizzard get the final say and sometimes those changes jeopardize the map (e.g. the LoS blockers being misplaced on Bridgehead empowering a particular all in necessitating a fix). I'd love for us to work closer with Blizzard to enable mappers to produce their best work while staying true to Blizzard design goals, I can only hope that we move this way over the next few months and move away from relying on the crapshoot this is map contests.
On February 08 2016 23:22 PengWin_SC wrote: (something that many other mapmakers have been absolutely awful at doing)
This is probaly because there isn't a way for a humble mapmaker to get populairity. The only way to get noticed for your mapmaking, without the pressence of a tournament or another community member promoting you, is by being very aggressive, which could easely make the public view you as a nuisance or obnoxious.
if i was a map maker truly passionate about a map and not wanting to be obnoxious about spam and being a social media hero i'd do the following: A) save up money from work or find sponsors to throw a $100-125 tournament with bo1's/bo3 semis&finals where all games are set to be played on this ONE map. i think this is important because it's hard for players to learn a full map pool of 7 maps at once. putting your event on a quiet date with 3-4 days advance notice helps. EU events have the highest turnout and viewership so that's the best thing to aim for.
On February 09 2016 02:17 Meavis wrote: first of all I want to say that by throwing up this without any consideration of the mapmaking scene you have greatly disrespected me and other mapmakers.
then again, the mapmaking scene is in a very poor situation and I'll welcome any efforts to publicize maps + Show Spoiler +
On February 08 2016 23:22 PengWin_SC wrote: (something that many other mapmakers have been absolutely awful at doing)
This is probaly because there isn't a way for a humble mapmaker to get populairity. The only way to get noticed for your mapmaking, without the pressence of a tournament or another community member promoting you, is by being very aggressive, which could easely make the public view you as a nuisance or obnoxious.
I don't really agree. It would be seen as obnoxious if you posted a map on Reddit like 6 times, but posting a new map that's just been completed shouldn't annoy anybody. That's the first step for sure. A lot can be learned from the way Avex does things, even if you think it's obnoxious to go around posting your stuff. At the end of the day, people know his work because he posts it on Reddit, and his maps have ended up being streamed by BaseTrade, Scarlett and State recently. I can't really say the same for anybody else except that I saw Antheia on Reddit as well, which prompted me to look more into Kantuva's recent stuff and include it.
except theres many out there that that have been posting their maps for YEARS and YEARS without ANY results at all, you are completely disconnected from the realities in the mapmaking scene, giving us advice on what to do is just arrogant.
On February 09 2016 01:14 Liquid`Snute wrote: if i was a map maker truly passionate about a map and not wanting to be obnoxious about spam and being a social media hero i'd do the following: A) save up money from work or find sponsors to throw a $100-125 tournament with bo1's/bo3 semis&finals where all games are set to be played on this ONE map. i think this is important because it's hard for players to learn a full map pool of 7 maps at once. putting your event on a quiet date with 3-4 days advance notice helps. EU events have the highest turnout and viewership so that's the best thing to aim for.
(yes i know money absolutely sucks, but that's how it works if you want to kickstart something without an existing follower base or major interest, think of it as drink money for a launch party i guess ... or an expensive frame and rental spot for your painting at the local gallery. if it is your dream to have people play your map at least once then this is a very real way to do it - we all know blizzard won't just randomly add good maps to their 3month ladderpools so might as well let having your map in the ladder be a lottery win type of dream and focus on small steps)
B) contact BaseTradeTV, SC2Improve, etc and see if one of them can cast the event C) Make a reddit thread and start posting there, even if it sux and even if you don't have an account, just DO iT D) TL thread and adding event to calendar asap E) post a tweet with a gfx including link to the map/tournament signup that people easily can RT ... etc etc ...
very few people are going to play custom maps without there being some special event to it i think, that's why custom maps have been limited to GSL, proleague and foreign showmatches mostly. sorry if this post offends anyone ala "lolol u want me to spend money after putting in 50 hours of mapmaking work" type of thing, i think it's constructive and a good idea to do something like this if you want maps played
there are few mapmakers who have that wealth at their disposal, keep in mind that making a good map is also very time intensive, to also pay for and organize a cup for your maps, which unless you're already famous, which none of the mapmakers are, will just end up with no publicity.
basetradeTV are not interested in working with any mapmaker but avex for some odd reason, they don't even want to as much as talk to us.
and just to repeat, posting your maps on forums for publicity does NOTHING.
sorry to say so but your approach seems very counter-productive to my uninformed eye
you say you like the initiative but spend most of the post complaining about it
obviously some mapmakers have had magic success through some kind of promotion. is it networking?? having a positive image??? any other kind of occult trickery? we don't know, and you as a self-proclaimed spokesperson for the mapmakers should probably be interested, but you just spit contempt and insult people instead of absorbing wisdom from the (real, cold, hard, unfair) outside world
holy shit albatross' korpulu sector 3. reminds me of the sick BW 1v1 maps where the map was elongated and you fought upawrds or downwards. Sc2 needs more of that shit. I thought avex was good but albatross' maps are even sicker
Unfortunately, being a well known mapper isn't really going to do much since the game completely revolves around blizzard. A lot of us who have been mapping since BW just don't really give a shit anymore until a TLMC or Blizzard contest comes around. I mean, at least before there were MLG, IPL, Proleague specific maps so there were more chances but now a day it pretty much revolves around blizzard. I'm not bashing blizzard or anything but when the whole goal of most mappers is to get into a high level tournament and/or ladder it's very slim pickings.
@Plexa yeah i didn't even consider the idea that mapmakers would be making maps exclusively for the sake of getting it to the ladder/wcs/gsl or having it played on a regular basis for months or creating a legendary map. My approach to it was more like my previous painting example: putting a lot of work into creating it, wanting to share it with people and be happy to pay a rent fee to the gallery so ppl could watch and enjoy. Maybe my standards are insanely low but i'd be happy with just a few hours of showcased gameplay on basetrade and a replay pack, doesn't have to be 3 months on the ladder :p like in these showmatches: a bit of sponsorship, showcasing new maps, good players, maybe some good games, maybe some bad, but far better than nothing at all and fun for the mapmakers, players and viewers
On February 09 2016 18:39 LongShot27 wrote: This community sickens me.
"We're going to have a small showmatch day with some maps we saw and liked
"OMG HOW COULD YOU NOT CONSULT THE MAPMAKING COMMUNITY!?"
Fucking A
I think you're being very unfair here ; literally only one person reacted as you describe it. Everyone else agrees that it is a very nice initiative ; and then, for future tournaments/showmatches of the same kind, the community divides between those who think PengWin, as the tournament organizer, can chose whichever maps he pleases, and those who think that it is necessary for the greater good to consult the mapmaking community.
On February 09 2016 18:39 LongShot27 wrote: This community sickens me.
"We're going to have a small showmatch day with some maps we saw and liked
"OMG HOW COULD YOU NOT CONSULT THE MAPMAKING COMMUNITY!?"
Fucking A
I think you're being very unfair here ; literally only one person reacted as you describe it. Everyone else agrees that it is a very nice initiative ; and then, for future tournaments/showmatches of the same kind, the community divides between those who think PengWin, as the tournament organizer, can chose whichever maps he pleases, and those who think that it is necessary for the greater good to consult the mapmaking community.
Quoted for greatness. I think this is a case of where the community is positive about pengwin's iniative and is behind him, bar one person. Looking forward to it
Pengwin only wrote 'what better time to test some new maps?' and 'pretty much just based on maps I've seen recently and liked / had a hand in testing.' The goal has never be set to 'find the best map or map style ever.', not even 'one of the best'.
Sure this initiative can give other great ideas, but this does not remove anything from it.
On February 09 2016 23:06 AbouSV wrote: Pengwin only wrote 'what better time to test some new maps?' and 'pretty much just based on maps I've seen recently and liked / had a hand in testing.' The goal has never be set to 'find the best map or map style ever.', not even 'one of the best'.
Sure this initiative can give other great ideas, but this does not remove anything from it.
Good move Pengwin!
I never said the goal was to find the best map ever, nor did I say it was to find the best map style ever. This will be a first test in competitive play for all but Detox in this pool. It is also showcasing some community maps. I'm sick of explaining over and over. The drama that people from the mapmaking community are trying to create is seriously ridiculous. I've also explained (this will be the fourth time) that I have plans to open submissions if I do another one, but I came up with this idea three days ago which is obviously not enough time to vett a bunch of submissions.
I'm actually astonished by how negative the reaction has been from the mapmaking community. Nobody is doing anything for the mapmaking community. I decide to test a new format with maps that I know have had a generally favorable response from some high level players, talk about opening it in the future for submissions and still the salt pours in from all sides. No wonder people don't want to work with the community mapmakers if this is how they act.
It's more of the offhand comment from pengwin that apparently all it takes for a mapmaker to get noticed is to just post your map on reddit and it is easy to get noticed. Obviously, that isn't true and rather insulting when you think about it.
Anyways, I love the idea behind the tourney, just don't rub salt into wounds by essentially marketing other mapmakers maps and proclaiming to other mapmakers that it's easy to market maps, when you are the person who have chosen which maps to publicise.
On February 09 2016 23:21 Dangermousecatdog wrote: It's more of the offhand comment from pengwin that apparently all it takes for a mapmaker to get noticed is to just post your map on reddit and it is easy to get noticed. Obviously, that isn't true and rather insulting when you think about it.
Literally the only reason I noticed Avex and Kantuva's maps were because they were on reddit. Rifkin told me the exact same thing. Rifkin also mentioned that he has only ever been approached by the mapping community outside Avex one time to use a map, which he turned down. He also turned down numerous maps of Avex's before he liked one enough to use it. Persistence works. I searched for map posts on reddit made in 2016, and the only person not on this list that I found was Meavis, whose maps got buried and not particualarly upvoted.
Maybe it's hard to get your work noticed, but you know what makes it a hell of a lot harder? Not trying. Nobody I've spoken to has been approached by mapmakers trying to get them used. Nobody has been approached by them looking for testers. Nobody has seen them being posted outside TL. People simply aren't trying. If a map is good, post it somewhere and it will get a positive reception. Maybe you get unlucky and it doesn't get used anyway, but a surefire way for your maps to not get used is to not push them at all.
On February 09 2016 23:06 AbouSV wrote: Pengwin only wrote 'what better time to test some new maps?' and 'pretty much just based on maps I've seen recently and liked / had a hand in testing.' The goal has never be set to 'find the best map or map style ever.', not even 'one of the best'.
Sure this initiative can give other great ideas, but this does not remove anything from it.
Good move Pengwin!
I never said the goal was to find the best map ever, nor did I say it was to find the best map style ever. This will be a first test in competitive play for all but Detox in this pool. It is also showcasing some community maps. I'm sick of explaining over and over. The drama that people from the mapmaking community are trying to create is seriously ridiculous. I've also explained (this will be the fourth time) that I have plans to open submissions if I do another one, but I came up with this idea three days ago which is obviously not enough time to vett a bunch of submissions.
I'm actually astonished by how negative the reaction has been from the mapmaking community. Nobody is doing anything for the mapmaking community. I decide to test a new format with maps that I know have had a generally favorable response from some high level players, talk about opening it in the future for submissions and still the salt pours in from all sides. No wonder people don't want to work with the community mapmakers if this is how they act.
I believe my post was not clear, but I do take your point 100% on this and greatly support it!
On February 09 2016 23:06 AbouSV wrote: Pengwin only wrote 'what better time to test some new maps?' and 'pretty much just based on maps I've seen recently and liked / had a hand in testing.' The goal has never be set to 'find the best map or map style ever.', not even 'one of the best'.
Sure this initiative can give other great ideas, but this does not remove anything from it.
Good move Pengwin!
I never said the goal was to find the best map ever, nor did I say it was to find the best map style ever. This will be a first test in competitive play for all but Detox in this pool. It is also showcasing some community maps. I'm sick of explaining over and over. The drama that people from the mapmaking community are trying to create is seriously ridiculous. I've also explained (this will be the fourth time) that I have plans to open submissions if I do another one, but I came up with this idea three days ago which is obviously not enough time to vett a bunch of submissions.
I'm actually astonished by how negative the reaction has been from the mapmaking community. Nobody is doing anything for the mapmaking community. I decide to test a new format with maps that I know have had a generally favorable response from some high level players, talk about opening it in the future for submissions and still the salt pours in from all sides. No wonder people don't want to work with the community mapmakers if this is how they act.
I believe my post was not clear, but I do take your point 100% on this and greatly support it!
Sorry, there's just been so much salt that I assumed the "good move PengWin" was sarcastic hah... I appreciate the support <3
Literally the only reason I noticed Avex and Kantuva's maps were because they were on reddit. Rifkin told me the exact same thing. Rifkin also mentioned that he has only ever been approached by the mapping community outside Avex one time to use a map, which he turned down. He also turned down numerous maps of Avex's before he liked one enough to use it. Persistence works. I searched for map posts on reddit made in 2016, and the only person not on this list that I found was Meavis, whose maps got buried and not particualarly upvoted.
Maybe it's hard to get your work noticed, but you know what makes it a hell of a lot harder? Not trying. Nobody I've spoken to has been approached by mapmakers trying to get them used. Nobody has been approached by them looking for testers. Nobody has seen them being posted outside TL. People simply aren't trying. If a map is good, post it somewhere and it will get a positive reception. Maybe you get unlucky and it doesn't get used anyway, but a surefire way for your maps to not get used is to not push them at all.
I'd say ignore some of these guys as there are plenty of mapmakers that honestly do expect to have things handed to them. I for one, am happy to see more tournaments use community maps because as a mapper that's really all you want, to have other people play your maps so you can get more feedback so you can hopefully edit those maps to make them better and hopefully repeat the process.
Avex especially is one of the "newer" (although not technically new here) bloods so I'm glad he's getting some publicity because he does try hard and does post a lot of his work. As for me, I use to post my maps on reddit quite a bit, but I've also been doing it since sc2 came out, so ~ 6 years ago and in those 6 years my four most successful maps have come from map contests I've entered on TL/Reddit, not because I've posted maps here or there or anywhere. So, now a day, I pretty much just sit around quietly, waiting for that Blizzard map contest / TLMC that happens pretty rarely and then I'll start mapping something new.
Hope to see multiple more tournaments in the future, I'd love to submit something next time but /shrug, either way I'm happy to see something new and somebody who actually gives a shit and is trying something different. Thanks Pengwin!
On February 09 2016 23:06 AbouSV wrote: Pengwin only wrote 'what better time to test some new maps?' and 'pretty much just based on maps I've seen recently and liked / had a hand in testing.' The goal has never be set to 'find the best map or map style ever.', not even 'one of the best'.
Sure this initiative can give other great ideas, but this does not remove anything from it.
Good move Pengwin!
I never said the goal was to find the best map ever, nor did I say it was to find the best map style ever. This will be a first test in competitive play for all but Detox in this pool. It is also showcasing some community maps. I'm sick of explaining over and over. The drama that people from the mapmaking community are trying to create is seriously ridiculous. I've also explained (this will be the fourth time) that I have plans to open submissions if I do another one, but I came up with this idea three days ago which is obviously not enough time to vett a bunch of submissions.
I'm actually astonished by how negative the reaction has been from the mapmaking community. Nobody is doing anything for the mapmaking community. I decide to test a new format with maps that I know have had a generally favorable response from some high level players, talk about opening it in the future for submissions and still the salt pours in from all sides. No wonder people don't want to work with the community mapmakers if this is how they act.
I believe my post was not clear, but I do take your point 100% on this and greatly support it!
Sorry, there's just been so much salt that I assumed the "good move PengWin" was sarcastic hah... I appreciate the support <3
No worry, that's quite understandable with the general tone indeed
PengWin is right to say we're not trying, even though we think we are. We're not. Or at least, I'm not, and I don't really see other people trying, except for Avex.
Last year I posted Cassiopeia on reddit, got on the frontpage of r/starcraft for a day or two. It was pretty cool, but it didn't get noticed by tournament organizers because I didn't follow up at all. I also sent one PM once to BTTV about maps with no response, but again I did not follow up. I figure they get a shitload of messages and mine got lost in the noise.
That's one reddit post, and one PM on teamliquid. If I were looking for a job, and I had posted one resume and sent one email, I would be unemployed. Incidentally, I have no recognition and no maps being used anywhere. If I had done this ten times over, maybe I could say I was trying.
That's just to say, it's about networking and being aggressive, following up, taking action. Avex has done with basically every map he's come out with, and chanman and PengWin and BTTV know him by name. I did not do that, and I'm only known in the TL map forum, and then as a rarely appearing unknown. Just making a good map and putting up a thread on reddit is not enough, and saying 'put it on reddit' is missing the key element of shoving it in people's faces, but in an attractive way. You don't put a resume on the boss's desk, you put in their hands. You don't call a potential client once and leave a message, you call every day until they answer. And just like in real life, it's not about being the best, it's about who knows you. If you want recognition for your maps, you have to work for it outside the editor just as hard as you do inside of it.
If you're thinking that the best maps win TLMC and go to ladder, therefore it is actually about being the best, I would like to remind you about all the excellent maps that were not chosen as finalists, and also about CJ Biome.
That PengWin is putting on an event with no ladder maps is great for everyone, as it's creating any visibility at all for non-ladder maps, and hopefully creating interest in making more events like it that use only non-ladder maps. That's good for me, it's good for Avex, it's good for Meavis. Let's move forward.
This yellow map Dulcimir looks pretty creative™ without being super trash. Hope blizzard considers putting it in (although they'll probably not with the mineral on the ramp)
Koma prepared very well for these maps. Didn't expect it considering he didn't know when he was playing. Reminds me of those urban legend about people acing exams but forgetting to write on their names.
On February 09 2016 23:21 Dangermousecatdog wrote: It's more of the offhand comment from pengwin that apparently all it takes for a mapmaker to get noticed is to just post your map on reddit and it is easy to get noticed. Obviously, that isn't true and rather insulting when you think about it.
Literally the only reason I noticed Avex and Kantuva's maps were because they were on reddit. Rifkin told me the exact same thing. Rifkin also mentioned that he has only ever been approached by the mapping community outside Avex one time to use a map, which he turned down. He also turned down numerous maps of Avex's before he liked one enough to use it. Persistence works. I searched for map posts on reddit made in 2016, and the only person not on this list that I found was Meavis, whose maps got buried and not particualarly upvoted.
Maybe it's hard to get your work noticed, but you know what makes it a hell of a lot harder? Not trying. Nobody I've spoken to has been approached by mapmakers trying to get them used. Nobody has been approached by them looking for testers. Nobody has seen them being posted outside TL. People simply aren't trying. If a map is good, post it somewhere and it will get a positive reception. Maybe you get unlucky and it doesn't get used anyway, but a surefire way for your maps to not get used is to not push them at all.
I did. Last year, in the dreaded era of the Catellena/Inferno Pools map pool, I contacted a dozen tournament/showmatches organizers to get them to use community maps - not my own maps, but community maps I liked (for the record, one would end up on the ladder later). Half of them never even cared to answer, the other half was interested but ultimately answered negatively, arguing that pro players didn't like to play on non-ladder maps. That's why what you're doing is great, no matter what some people might say, and no matter which maps you choose, and how you choose them. I don't know if you realize, but afaik you're only the fourth person/org to organize a tournament/showmatches featuring community maps in 2014/15/16 (the other 3 I know of being O'Gaming, TB and Rifkin). Thus rejecting the fault on the mapmakers only is not exactly exact. Thus any change in this domain must be encouraged and received positively.
Problem with many maps in general: random low and highgrounds that are way too abuseable, weird airspace / air blockers, they dont feel smooth. some of the ideas are really good though
Final tally for the "best map" ranking is in! First of all, the maps selected by the players. As a reminder, each player picked their two favorite maps, their favorite getting 2 points and second favorite getting one:
Blysk: Fall of Zasz, Cupid MCanning: Cupid, Fall of Zasz RayReign: Dulcimer, Gamble KoMa: Fall of Zasz, Detox PtitDrogo: Koprulu Sector 3, Antheia Bly: Abstained Kelazhur: Koprulu Sector 3, Rain City Serral: Abstained Elroye: Koprulu Sector 3, Dulcimer Teebul: Detox, Rain City
So, including the main strawpoll the results are as follows!
All of the maps were AWESOME and made for really sick games. This event was so much more fun than I envisioned, so a massive shoutout to Wardi for casting and streaming the event and a huge shoutout to all 3 of the mapmakers, Albatross, Avex and Kantuva! Can't wait for the next one, already lots of cool ideas
But seriously, jokes aside congrats to Albatoss for taking it! I had a blast watching the games, and loved talking with all the chat people, my only gripe is that we didn't get to see a proxy hatch on Dulcimer! That would have been kickass (specially because I'm actually worried that proxy hatch on the map might be a tad more powerful than Id like!)
On February 09 2016 23:21 Dangermousecatdog wrote: It's more of the offhand comment from pengwin that apparently all it takes for a mapmaker to get noticed is to just post your map on reddit and it is easy to get noticed. Obviously, that isn't true and rather insulting when you think about it.
Literally the only reason I noticed Avex and Kantuva's maps were because they were on reddit. Rifkin told me the exact same thing. Rifkin also mentioned that he has only ever been approached by the mapping community outside Avex one time to use a map, which he turned down. He also turned down numerous maps of Avex's before he liked one enough to use it. Persistence works. I searched for map posts on reddit made in 2016, and the only person not on this list that I found was Meavis, whose maps got buried and not particualarly upvoted.
Maybe it's hard to get your work noticed, but you know what makes it a hell of a lot harder? Not trying. Nobody I've spoken to has been approached by mapmakers trying to get them used. Nobody has been approached by them looking for testers. Nobody has seen them being posted outside TL. People simply aren't trying. If a map is good, post it somewhere and it will get a positive reception. Maybe you get unlucky and it doesn't get used anyway, but a surefire way for your maps to not get used is to not push them at all.
Edit: Clarification
Firstly, I will say as a mapmaker I had a good time watching what little I could of the show matches last night and I am glad this is happening. I also hope it keeps happening and that the vocal minority doesn't dissuade you from continuing to do these. Keep up the good efforts, thanks!
Also, I don't know how to post to reddit am I'm doomed to fail?
And the ugly part (and I apologize if I have misinterpreted something): Without getting too far into drama and salt I'll say a couple things about it: A lot of what you said about the map making community and their being "motivated to help themselves" in the past couple pages is just not true and kind of hurts to read.
For example I've been in contact with Rifkin a multitude of times discussing exactly what your doing with these show matches and even contacted various progamers to test my maps. A while later I stopped doing this because the progamers never showed interest as their time and preparation for upcoming tournaments is understandably important, and Rifkin got very busy. I have even done what Snute said in a previous post and attempted to put $500AUD of my own money forward as a prize pool. There are other countless examples similar to this situation for other mapmakers that I don't think its fair to say that we aren't trying to help ourselves.
TLDR: Good work and I'm happy to see this happening, I just don't agree with you about some ideas about us
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gSDACjb.png)
SC2Improve 
mYi.Blysk vs 
F3.MCanning
dPix.Elroye
mYi.PtitDrogo vs 
Acer.Bly
mYi.Serral vs 
ROOT.Kelazhur
F3.KoMa
