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Bacon_Infinity
Canada212 Posts
![[image loading]](http://cdn.teamacer.com/media/uploads/2015/04/600/probedronescv.png) On Monday, Apr 27 1:00am GMT (GMT+00:00) Team Acer's Scarlett will face off against Yoe Flash Wolves PartinG in the name of research! The winner of this match will get $75 CAD with the loser taking home $25 CAD. Scarlett and PartinG will play a Bo7 showmatch using the Double Harvest economy mod suggested in this post Make sure to check out this epic clash of titans on http://www.twitch.tv/bacon_infinity! | ||
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
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Bacon_Infinity
Canada212 Posts
On April 25 2015 13:03 Circumstance wrote: If this doesn't get the view count that all the Archon Super Series matches deserved to get, it's proof that the community is all talk. <3<3<3 | ||
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ImPrOVE
Chile10 Posts
this really needs to get a lot of viewers if we want Blizz to consider the idea seriously | ||
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xtorn
4060 Posts
but, im hoping for VoDs here, because its not really CEST friendly for those who work on monday... | ||
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Torrefy
41 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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Splynn
United States225 Posts
I wonder how much the players will actually practice the DH method before playing; going into it cold might not demonstrate how it can really change up the game and how it looks. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
Too bad it's at 3 am, will watch vods though. | ||
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Bacon_Infinity
Canada212 Posts
On April 25 2015 16:09 KingAlphard wrote: So is it DH9 or DH10? Too bad it's at 3 am, will watch vods though. It is DH9, we will upload all of the vods to our youtube when it's done  | ||
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Arghmyliver
United States1077 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
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samurai80
Japan4225 Posts
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Bacon_Infinity
Canada212 Posts
On April 26 2015 00:46 samurai80 wrote: Sounds nice ! But the time chosen is pretty terrible though... Sorry the time doesn't work out, ideally we would do it in the afternoon EDT, but that would be asking PartinG to be up around 4 in the morning. All the VODs will be on YouTube asap though | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
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argonautdice
Canada2704 Posts
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On April 26 2015 03:49 OtherWorld wrote: Pretty cool initiative, but the matchup feels kinda onesided. Kinda. Not kinda, it just feels one-sided as hell... Scarlett just got back from the break and Parting has been winning tournaments left and right. If it was someone like Life vs. Parting it would've been great, but I won't be surprised if this series end up as major disappointment. Great initiative though, would like to see more of this with some players that have similar skill level. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On April 26 2015 03:49 OtherWorld wrote: Pretty cool initiative, but the matchup feels kinda onesided. Kinda. GSL runner-up who's ranked #1 in the world on aligulac vs someone who's played more Dota2 in the last 3 months and couldn't make WCS Challenger... fair.  | ||
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Bacon_Infinity
Canada212 Posts
On April 26 2015 04:03 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: GSL runner-up who's ranked #1 in the world on aligulac vs someone who's played more Dota2 in the last 3 months and couldn't make WCS Challenger... fair. We informed Scarlett before she accepted that it would be PartinG that she plays and she seemed legitimately excited by the idea, we have faith that she can bring out some really great matches Edit: plus this could help settle the "is wcs easier than code a" debate :p | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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robih
Austria1085 Posts
On April 25 2015 13:03 Circumstance wrote: If this doesn't get the view count that all the Archon Super Series matches deserved to get, it's proof that the community is all talk. at 3 am CET it will be a lot more difficult to get viewers | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On April 26 2015 07:18 robih wrote: at 3 am CET it will be a lot more difficult to get viewers Cause NA doesn't have any viewers ever... | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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HewTheTitan
Canada331 Posts
Still... very eager to see it | ||
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
I really like the idea though and would love to see a little 8 or 16 player tourney with that econ setting or Starbowesque worker AI. | ||
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MrFreeman
207 Posts
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misterxy1994
Germany53 Posts
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imre
France9263 Posts
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Bacon_Infinity
Canada212 Posts
On April 26 2015 17:45 MrFreeman wrote: Really cool, already saved the YT channel, too bad you can´t subscribe and chose not to get new videos in subscriber box, instead, youtube just chooses what to send you, when you subscribe to more channels, so I have at least saved a playlist. Don´t see much benefit in watching it live, but will be interesting to check out the VODs. We will get the youtube videos posted asap <3 On April 26 2015 18:34 misterxy1994 wrote: Let's see if scarlett can handle parting, still very interested to see how this will work. I feel like zerg should get an advantage with the this harvesting system so maybe scarlett has a chance. We think that the double harvest economy should give Scarlett a lot more of a fighting chance than people are giving her credit for On April 26 2015 18:43 sAsImre wrote: Holy shit you guys are awesome ! <3<3<3 | ||
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xtorn
4060 Posts
can't wait for the vod | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13961 Posts
<3<3<3 | ||
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Bacon_Infinity
Canada212 Posts
On April 26 2015 21:09 Cricketer12 wrote: Bacon! This is amazing! Please send the replays to the Gmail ZeromuS made for DH games! <3<3<3 Thanks for reminding us about this, totally forgot about that | ||
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Arkaim
United States63 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
On April 26 2015 23:56 Big J wrote: ah shit, this is in the middle of the night for me :S Poor you, gonna be so tired tomorrow. | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
PM if you want a co-caster. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
yeah, that's what I fear :D | ||
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kingjames01
Canada1603 Posts
Also, it's pretty funny but $75 CAD isn't worth a lot right now... hehe. + Show Spoiler + It's also sad.  Finally, GO SCARLETT! | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
On April 26 2015 08:17 Deathstar wrote: 9pm for me. deal with it europeans. You can always move to America for the best time zones Why is your sig that? Isn't supposed to be something akin to "I'm a moron who bet on Avilo"? | ||
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highsis
259 Posts
I'm surprised Parting would play for $75 prize money, though. He is a top-caliber SC2 player. Normally players of his level won't participate in tournaments with small prize pool. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On April 27 2015 05:19 royalroadweed wrote: Why is your sig that? Isn't supposed to be something akin to "I'm a moron who bet on Avilo"? that was only for a week, since me and templar didn't have enough faith in scarlett yet at that point. | ||
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Supersamu
Germany296 Posts
On April 27 2015 05:22 highsis wrote: This will be awfully lopsided in Paritng's favour. Expecting 4:0. I'm surprised Parting would play for $75 prize money, though. He is a top-caliber SC2 player. Normally players of his level won't participate in tournaments with small prize pool. Parting is very active on Twitter and with Showmatches, I think he wants to increase his popularity outside of Korea. He also isn't playing in Proleague at the moment. Still, a best of 7 for 75$/25$ is good money. Assuming Parting has a 80% chance of winning the Series, his expected return is 65$, and with a high likelihood of the Series not going the full 7 games, this would be a decent salary. If you think the most likely outcome is a 4:0, it makes this way more profitable for the Time investment, even. | ||
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ImPrOVE
Chile10 Posts
On April 27 2015 05:22 highsis wrote: This will be awfully lopsided in Paritng's favour. Expecting 4:0. I'm surprised Parting would play for $75 prize money, though. He is a top-caliber SC2 player. Normally players of his level won't participate in tournaments with small prize pool. PartinG isn't in a top KeSPA team though (not saying that yFW is bad whatsoever, just not under the same "level"), I don't think yoeFlash Wolves is as strict as SKT, KT, CJ, etc... with what the players do in their free time. They would even motivate PartinG to enter such tournaments to get more exposure in the western scene and probably try to get new sponsors. | ||
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Alucen-Will-
United States4054 Posts
On April 27 2015 07:54 Supersamu wrote: Parting is very active on Twitter and with Showmatches, I think he wants to increase his popularity outside of Korea. He also isn't playing in Proleague at the moment. Still, a best of 7 for 75$/25$ is good money. Assuming Parting has a 80% chance of winning the Series, his expected return is 65$, and with a high likelihood of the Series not going the full 7 games, this would be a decent salary. If you think the most likely outcome is a 4:0, it makes this way more profitable for the Time investment, even. Plus, its practice anyway. Indepedent of hiding builds, I see no reason why getting some money from what is effectively practice is a problem. | ||
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Supersamu
Germany296 Posts
On April 27 2015 09:59 Alucen-Will- wrote: Plus, its practice anyway. Indepedent of hiding builds, I see no reason why getting some money from what is effectively practice is a problem. I don't know, the DH9 change is supposed to be big, so experience here isn't really applicable to HOTS, but I guess it is still a mechanics exercise. I see that I can't change the quality of the stream, so I won't be able to watch it live without a delay every 10 seconds or so I hope the pregame interview and the postgame interview will be up at youtube as well. | ||
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FlyingSteaks
Brazil433 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:06 Supersamu wrote: I don't know, the DH9 change is supposed to be big, so experience here isn't really applicable to HOTS, but I guess it is still a mechanics exercise. This is going to be on DH9 or DH10? | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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Tictock
United States6051 Posts
I tune into a stream with worse audio issues than NASL... the hype died fast. | ||
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Alucen-Will-
United States4054 Posts
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nick00bot
326 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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Alucen-Will-
United States4054 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:19 Deathstar wrote: I would be mad at the casters but the scarletparting chat too good That is the main reason I tuned in, lol | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On April 27 2015 09:47 ImPrOVE wrote: PartinG isn't in a top KeSPA team though (not saying that yFW is bad whatsoever, just not under the same "level"), I don't think yoeFlash Wolves is as strict as SKT, KT, CJ, etc... with what the players do in their free time. They would even motivate PartinG to enter such tournaments to get more exposure in the western scene and probably try to get new sponsors. In an interview Parting said YoeFW is almost as strict as the Kespa teams. I imagine the difference is the focus on PL since he can't play anyway. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:22 Big J wrote: 60workers on 3bases. I get the feeling they haven't played this before :S So how would they change to best take advantage of the new econ system? | ||
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Alucen-Will-
United States4054 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:28 Deathstar wrote: So how would they change to best take advantage of the new econ system? more bases, fewer workers per base | ||
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Ashent
Korea (South)109 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:28 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Well that looked like a perfectly normal game. Let's hope we can show off the economy a little more next time. I think Scarlett is going to use the income boost to pressure faster this game. It seemed like she wasn't used to being able to max as fast as you can in DH. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
Ah. Maybe it'll be easier to show it off in a 4p map like cactus valley | ||
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FlyingSteaks
Brazil433 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Yup, this. You can take a 4th very early as zerg for example. Having more than 10workers on minerals per base isn't all that good, 50workers on 3bases should be your maximum. Scarlett at some point had 77workers and her 4th unfinished. 77workers is 5base saturation. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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Alucen-Will-
United States4054 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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Alucen-Will-
United States4054 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:42 Deathstar wrote: so 12 mins, scarlett has 4 running bases with 53 workers. Is this better representation of optimal saturation? Optimal saturation is 8 workers per base | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:42 Alucen-Will- wrote: Optimal saturation is 8 workers per base daaaang 8????? Yeah they def don't know then lol | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
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TechNoTrance
Canada1007 Posts
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
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FlyingSteaks
Brazil433 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
70/3 ~ 23.33 So someone should tell the casters/admins to tell the players to play more in line with the new eco | ||
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ossavi09
Germany441 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:43 Deathstar wrote: daaaang 8????? Yeah they def don't know then lol tbh, noone knows, except some TL readers who spent days reading that super long explanation on that mode =P Atleast I don't know anyone who read that thread including myself, and noone ever tried to sum it up in a few words anywhere ( if I'm not mistaken) | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:43 Deathstar wrote: daaaang 8????? Yeah they def don't know then lol 8 work at 100% effciency in theory. But even the 9th should work at basically 100% efficiency. It's when you go beyond 10 that it would be really better to transfer. Basically the efficiency per worker gets worse with every worker after the 9th. 53workers on 4bases is quite a good representation. And the fact that she can keep up with "so few" drones showcases the power of the economy. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:46 ossavi09 wrote: tbh, noone knows, except some TL readers who spent days reading that super long explanation on that mode =P Atleast I don't know anyone who read that thread including myself, and noone ever tried to sum it up in a few words anywhere ( if I'm not mistaken) Your workers mine longer on a patch but return much more resources. Therefore low amounts of workers get you more income than low amount of workers in normal HotS. But the mining efficiency decreases with every worker past the first 8 or 9 because additional workers have to wait for free patches to mine from. --> Having more bases with low amounts of workers is better than having few bases with high amounts of workers. | ||
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Alucen-Will-
United States4054 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:47 Big J wrote: 8 work at 100% effciency in theory. But even the 9th should work at basically 100% efficiency. It's when you go beyond 10 that it would be really better to transfer. Basically the efficiency per worker gets worse with every worker after the 9th. 53workers on 4bases is quite a good representation. And the fact that she can keep up with "so few" drones showcases the power of the economy. Yeah. In many ways the effect of the DH mod is very similar to broodwars economic system. | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:51 Big J wrote: But the mining efficiency decreases with every worker past the first 8 or 9 because additional workers have to wait for free patches to mine from. What? I thought two workers can mine on a single patch at the same time, thats why it is called double harvesting?! | ||
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Alucen-Will-
United States4054 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:54 graNite wrote: What? I thought two workers can mine on a single patch at the same time, thats why it is called double harvesting?! No, double harvesting means each worker mines 2x the normal trip in HOTS (with more time on the patch). | ||
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ImPrOVE
Chile10 Posts
Your intention was good, but the execution on the other hand... | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:54 graNite wrote: What? I thought two workers can mine on a single patch at the same time, thats why it is called double harvesting?! No, it is called double harvest because a worker will literally mine twice. It takes 5minerals, puts it in its backpack and then mines another 4 or 5minerals. Only then it goes home and returns the 9-10minerals. (9 or 10 is the difference between DH10 or DH9, two different models. This match is being played on DH9) | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:57 Big J wrote: No, it is called double harvest because a worker will literally mine twice. It takes 5minerals, puts it in its backpack and then mines another 4 or 5minerals. Only then it goes home and returns the 9-10minerals. (9 or 10 is the difference between DH10 or DH9, two different models. This match is being played on DH9) Ah, so it's 5 first and then 4. That somehow feels more right. | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:57 Big J wrote: No, it is called double harvest because a worker will literally mine twice. It takes 5minerals, puts it in its backpack and then mines another 4 or 5minerals. Only then it goes home and returns the 9-10minerals. (9 or 10 is the difference between DH10 or DH9, two different models. This match is being played on DH9) Watching at the first game of this series, 2 workers can DEFINITELY mine from the same patch at the same time... Maybe it isn't intended but that's what I've seen couple of times when they were focusing camera on workers mining. I am off to bed, hopefully the rest of the games will be better and won't be slow-paced HOTS(it looked like it so far) but I seriously doubt it. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 27 2015 11:02 Pontius Pirate wrote: Ah, so it's 5 first and then 4. That somehow feels more right. To be quite honest, I have no clue how they implemented it and 5+4 is totally made up by me. I know it is 9overall in two trips of mining. And I know that it is impossible to do 4.5+4.5, it has to be integers. So 5+4 is just my guess how they implemented it. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 27 2015 11:03 Ramiz1989 wrote: Watching at the first game of this series, 2 workers can DEFINITELY mine from the same patch at the same time... Maybe it isn't intended but that's what I've seen couple of times when they were focusing camera on workers mining. I am off to bed, hopefully the rest of the games will be better and won't be slow-paced HOTS(it looked like it so far) but I seriously doubt it. The worker AI makes it so that after the first worker has finished his mining, if there is a second worker already waiting to mine, the second one will mine before the first one goes again. Only then the first one will mine his second time and return the minerals, and then the second one will mine its second time and return it home. That also answers the question from a few pages back why there is so little worker bouncing. The workers don't bounce, but they wait at the patches - unless there is really a free patch. Which with the longer mining time is rarely the case once you are past 10workers. | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17595 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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Roadog
Canada1670 Posts
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
On April 27 2015 11:08 Deathstar wrote: Bacon is on tilt or something lol. I would be too | ||
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On April 27 2015 11:04 Big J wrote: To be quite honest, I have no clue how they implemented it and 5+4 is totally made up by me. I know it is 9overall in two trips of mining. And I know that it is impossible to do 4.5+4.5, it has to be integers. So 5+4 is just my guess how they implemented it. I thought they responded saying 5+4 was not possible, and D9 instead was simply shortening the duration mining required at the patch ever so slightly to mimic what it would be? Or was the person who said that incorrect? | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
Scarlet going up to 4 base, parting 3 Oracle trying to do damage but not getying much. Sentry push kills scarletts 4th, even supply Scarlet relying on ling roach, getting ffd to death Parting pushing 3rd. blinks too much gg Bit of a 1 sided affair isn't it? | ||
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
On April 27 2015 11:15 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I'm on phone... Scarlet going up to 4 base, parting 3 Oracle trying to do damage but not getying much. Sentry push kills scarletts 4th, even supply Scarlet relying on ling roach, getting ffd to death Parting pushing 3rd. blinks too much gg Bit of a 1 sided affair isn't it? no no, I wanted an LR of the "stream" not the game | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
Also I think they're flirting with eachother | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On April 27 2015 11:29 Solar424 wrote: PartinG having flashbacks to GSL finals Also I think they're flirting with eachother Think? Parting couldn't be trying any harder lol. Anyway, about as 1 sided as expected, that last game especially should have gone better, but oh well. Probably not the best representation of the new mod, since it doesn't really nerf Parting's annoying as fuck style much, and Scarlett seemed really aprehensive to take the extra bases she really needed. Oh well though, data's data | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
now is the interview and it's hilarious haha | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
Parting literally made moaning sounds AAAAH (imagine the kreygasm face) Talked about how hungry he was Scarlett says we're ready for the interview and bacon just turns stream off rofl | ||
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BroskiDerpman
58 Posts
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woopr
United States110 Posts
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Scarlett`
China2374 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:46 Deathstar wrote: rofl Parting has 70 workers in 3 bases, where his main is almost dry 70/3 ~ 23.33 So someone should tell the casters/admins to tell the players to play more in line with the new eco You know honestly if we could have more bases safely and for free then yea we could 'play more in line with the new eco' Unfortunately thats not the case in sc2 | ||
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iMrising
United States1099 Posts
On April 27 2015 12:21 Acer.Scarlett` wrote: You know honestly if we could have more bases safely and for free then yea we could 'play more in line with the new eco' Unfortunately thats not the case in sc2 Do you have any thoughts on the Eco? I didn't see the interview but if mentioned them there then I'll just go watch the vod | ||
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Bacon_Infinity
Canada212 Posts
On April 27 2015 12:21 Acer.Scarlett` wrote: You know honestly if we could have more bases safely and for free then yea we could 'play more in line with the new eco' Unfortunately thats not the case in sc2 yeah it seems like we would need maps designed specifically with this system in mind for it to work, bases past your third are too difficult to defend on many in the current pool on another note: Sorry for the atrocious production of this event. It is just about right that the biggest and most hyped thing we have ever done for the sc2 scene went crashing and burning into the ground Thanks to everyone who came out, we really appreciate your support and feedback <3<3<3 | ||
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
On April 27 2015 12:31 Bacon_Infinity wrote: yeah it seems like we would need maps designed specifically with this system in mind for it to work, bases past your third are too difficult to defend on many in the current pool on another note: Sorry for the atrocious production of this event. It is just about right that the biggest and most hyped thing we have ever done for the sc2 scene went crashing and burning into the ground Thanks to everyone who came out, we really appreciate your support and feedback <3<3<3 Thanks for doing this and better luck next time! | ||
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bypLy
757 Posts
On April 27 2015 12:31 Bacon_Infinity wrote: Sorry for the atrocious production of this event. It is just about right that the biggest and most hyped thing we have ever done for the sc2 scene went crashing and burning into the ground Thanks to everyone who came out, we really appreciate your support and feedback <3<3<3 hope you put more effort into this next time, but you already lost some supports i guess. Try to make these events good production in the future | ||
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Bacon_Infinity
Canada212 Posts
On April 27 2015 12:57 bypLy wrote: hope you put more effort into this next time, but you already lost some supports i guess. Try to make these events good production in the future the funny thing is most of the problems were things that we literally JUST tested before going live. but somewhere between soundcheck and launching everything went to shit. oh well, always next time | ||
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Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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Arkaim
United States63 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On April 27 2015 14:38 Arkaim wrote: So we had our show match. What did it teach us about Double Harvest? It's useless. There's still very little reason to ever go above 3-4 bases | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On April 27 2015 14:41 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: It's useless. There's still very little reason to ever go above 3-4 bases It's really hard to defend 5 mining bases as P >_> | ||
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Bacon_Infinity
Canada212 Posts
Changes are more subtle than a lot of people expected but if the maps made it slightly easier to defend the 4th-6th bases then it would be worth it to play for more greed. As of right now it looked like a giant investment to keep your additional bases able to mine but it did create some very cool scrappy games where both sides were bouncing between 100 supply and max quite often by harrassing and defending | ||
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Ashent
Korea (South)109 Posts
I honestly feel like mid-masters players with a week of practice in it could give us some really entertaining games. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
On April 27 2015 14:38 Arkaim wrote: So we had our show match. What did it teach us about Double Harvest? I learned that force fields. | ||
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annedeman
Netherlands350 Posts
On April 27 2015 11:13 FabledIntegral wrote: To be quite honest, I have no clue how they implemented it and 5+4 is totally made up by me. I know it is 9overall in two trips of mining. And I know that it is impossible to do 4.5+4.5, it has to be integers. So 5+4 is just my guess how they implemented it. zeromus commented its actually triple harvesting in the how to play thread, if i remember correctly | ||
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zerge
Germany162 Posts
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BlackLilium
Poland426 Posts
On April 27 2015 16:13 annedeman wrote: zeromus commented its actually triple harvesting in the how to play thread, if i remember correctly It is now DH 3x3, that is: - each worker harvest 3 times per trip - each harvest gives 3 minerals Workers do not bounce that much before 16, but second worker on mineral patch loses some time because of the first worker. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On April 27 2015 13:41 Lunareste wrote: if I learned anything from this showmatch, it's that I really want to read some Parting/Scarlett fanfiction Done. What in gods name have I done. + Show Spoiler [Partings Wild Night] + Parting felt on top of the world. After a gruelling day of play, he was walking out of Dreamhack Tours with another championship under his belt. It wasn't easy, he had to use all 3 builds in his arsenal, he even had to take a 4th base in one game! But that was behind him now, and he was looking to unwind. There was to be an after party at the hotel, and Parting new he wouldn't want to miss it. A few pictures with fans that he didn't want to take, a few autographs none of these French people would be able to read, and he was out the door. As he was about to hop into a cab to head back to the hotel, a unique and recognizable voice called out behind him. "Parting! You aren't just gonna leave so soon are you?" Sasha said as she pushed pushed Parting into the cab as she followed. "I told you we were gonna party after Dreamhack, I know a cool club, let's go!" The said a name the the driver, and off they went. Parting was taken aback a little. He hadn't expected this at all. As they started on their way, Scarlett leaned in and pit her head in his shoulder. If he was aback before, he was now thoroughly confused. Then he remembered the showmatch. He recalled joking with Scarlett a few weeks prior during some random dumb showmatch, but he never thought that his over the top silly flirting would actually maybe start working. He tried to remember all he said, about his shyness and the partying, but it wasn't coming back to him in full. He didn't really care anymore though, this was turning into an interesting night! The club came into view, and Scarlett had the driver stop by the front door. Unbelievably, Scarlett herself payed for the cab! "A pretty girl taking me out and paying for everything after I just won? This is a dream come true!" The club was busy, but when you have a girl with you, you get in surprisingly quick. The place was banging, you couldn't hear yourself think. Scarlett motioned over to the bar and Parting followed. Again, even after he had insisted again and again, she was paying. A few shots each, and Scarlett took him by the hand and led him to the floor. Parting wasnt much of a drinker, he recalled the time he had run into his teammates room after a different tournament shouting "I WANT SEX!", and the few drinks had already made him quite tipsy and disoriented. But when you find yourself in this situation, you can't stop or slow down. So they danced, by themselves and with each other and with others. Parting had no idea how to dance and felt awkward, but the body language of Sasha implied that she didn't mind, or didn't even notice. A few times they went from the bar to the floor and back again, and everytime Sasha danced with him a little more. Never had a girl seemed so into him... This was unreal. Finally his years allining were getting him somewhere. He had money enough, but this is the kind of action he'd been missing. The night went on, but Parting had lost track of time. Scarlett had gone off to the washroom and he was drinking by himself. This was when he decided.He was pushing wasted and he didn't care anymore, he wanted this night to end perfect. His nerves had gone, and he finally was able to say to her when she returned "Want to go back to the hotel for a little fun, honey?" "I thought you'd never ask", she replied with a wink. This was it. It was on like Donkey Kong. They swiftly left the club and hopped in a cab back to the hotel. Parting was getting restless, and didn't know exactly what to do. He tried to make a move, but she politely blocked his first advance with a "I have a surprise for you back at the hotel" and that was all Parting needed to hear. When they arrived, the swiftly moved up to her hotel room. She pushed open the door and drug him in so quickly he almost fell over. "How about one more drink?" She said, and she already had a drink prepared for him. He wasn't sure where she'd gotten it from, but he was too far gone to care. He took the whole thing in one gulp and was ready to pounce. Scarlett said she had to go to the washroom first, and then he'd be in for his surprise. He laid on the bed and waiting. He was never so excited. He waited... and waited... and waited. He wondered what was taking so long. He started to think about how the night had led up to here, and he started to notice something. The way she was overly flirtatious, the way she had denied his advances despite seeming so interested, the hotel room not being locked, the drink that appeared out of nowhere. Something wasn't adding up. And then it hit him. He felt dizzy, and not in a drunk way. He tried to stand but he fell as he rose. He laid there for a second, and as he looked up Scarlett was now standing over him. "It's finally kicking in..." Her voice trailed off as Parting began to lose consciousness. The set up had worked Parting awoke in a panic. He tried to move, but his hands and feet were restrained. He was tried to the bed, and his pounding head darted across the room looking for answers. His vision was blurry, but he could make out Scarlett... and two more figures. After a moment, the trio realized the their captive had awoke. They approached and Parting saw who the other two were and knew he was in trouble. The two before him were none other than Jaedong and Life. Jaedong was a player he had always done well against, his 2 base all ins had been unstoppable against him. And Scarlett was always a whiner, she hated his style and herself had gotten crushed time and time again. But Life didn't make sense. "LIFE YOI WERE NOT EVEN AT THIS TOURNAMENT!" he screamed. "I wouldn't miss this for the world. With you out of the picture, I'll be #1 on Aligulac. HAHA". "Your reign of bullshit has gone on for long enough, Parting. We, and by extension the zergs of the world, have had enough" Scarlett spoke in a serious and ominous tone. From behind Jaedongs back came a knife, and Partings heart sank. He was done for. The knife was held above him. It was hopeless... Suddenly a loud BANG and the door came flying inwards. Scarlett and Life were knocked off their feet. The 3 Zergs looked in awe. At the door was A FUCKING IMMORTAL, and it looked pissed. In a moment of quick thinking, Jaedong rushed the Protoss with the knife, but just before he could get in range a forcefield appeared out of nowhere. The Immortal walked in and blasted the place up, and behind it was a group of zealots and sentries. The zealots untied Parting and said to him "En Taro, Parting" and they all warped back to Aiur and had a great big Protoss party with many beautiful Protoss ladies. THE END | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
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Bacon_Infinity
Canada212 Posts
On April 27 2015 17:46 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Done. What in gods name have I done. + Show Spoiler [Partings Wild Night] + Parting felt on top of the world. After a gruelling day of play, he was walking out of Dreamhack Tours with another championship under his belt. It wasn't easy, he had to use all 3 builds in his arsenal, he even had to take a 4th base in one game! But that was behind him now, and he was looking to unwind. There was to be an after party at the hotel, and Parting new he wouldn't want to miss it. A few pictures with fans that he didn't want to take, a few autographs none of these French people would be able to read, and he was out the door. As he was about to hop into a cab to head back to the hotel, a unique and recognizable voice called out behind him. "Parting! You aren't just gonna leave so soon are you?" Sasha said as she pushed pushed Parting into the cab as she followed. "I told you we were gonna party after Dreamhack, I know a cool club, let's go!" The said a name the the driver, and off they went. Parting was taken aback a little. He hadn't expected this at all. As they started on their way, Scarlett leaned in and pit her head in his shoulder. If he was aback before, he was now thoroughly confused. Then he remembered the showmatch. He recalled joking with Scarlett a few weeks prior during some random dumb showmatch, but he never thought that his over the top silly flirting would actually maybe start working. He tried to remember all he said, about his shyness and the partying, but it wasn't coming back to him in full. He didn't really care anymore though, this was turning into an interesting night! The club came into view, and Scarlett had the driver stop by the front door. Unbelievably, Scarlett herself payed for the cab! "A pretty girl taking me out and paying for everything after I just won? This is a dream come true!" The club was busy, but when you have a girl with you, you get in surprisingly quick. The place was banging, you couldn't hear yourself think. Scarlett motioned over to the bar and Parting followed. Again, even after he had insisted again and again, she was paying. A few shots each, and Scarlett took him by the hand and led him to the floor. Parting wasnt much of a drinker, he recalled the time he had run into his teammates room after a different tournament shouting "I WANT SEX!", and the few drinks had already made him quite tipsy and disoriented. But when you find yourself in this situation, you can't stop or slow down. So they danced, by themselves and with each other and with others. Parting had no idea how to dance and felt awkward, but the body language of Sasha implied that she didn't mind, or didn't even notice. A few times they went from the bar to the floor and back again, and everytime Sasha danced with him a little more. Never had a girl seemed so into him... This was unreal. Finally his years allining were getting him somewhere. He had money enough, but this is the kind of action he'd been missing. The night went on, but Parting had lost track of time. Scarlett had gone off to the washroom and he was drinking by himself. This was when he decided.He was pushing wasted and he didn't care anymore, he wanted this night to end perfect. His nerves had gone, and he finally was able to say to her when she returned "Want to go back to the hotel for a little fun, honey?" "I thought you'd never ask", she replied with a wink. This was it. It was on like Donkey Kong. They swiftly left the club and hopped in a cab back to the hotel. Parting was getting restless, and didn't know exactly what to do. He tried to make a move, but she politely blocked his first advance with a "I have a surprise for you back at the hotel" and that was all Parting needed to hear. When they arrived, the swiftly moved up to her hotel room. She pushed open the door and drug him in so quickly he almost fell over. "How about one more drink?" She said, and she already had a drink prepared for him. He wasn't sure where she'd gotten it from, but he was too far gone to care. He took the whole thing in one gulp and was ready to pounce. Scarlett said she had to go to the washroom first, and then he'd be in for his surprise. He laid on the bed and waiting. He was never so excited. He waited... and waited... and waited. He wondered what was taking so long. He started to think about how the night had led up to here, and he started to notice something. The way she was overly flirtatious, the way she had denied his advances despite seeming so interested, the hotel room not being locked, the drink that appeared out of nowhere. Something wasn't adding up. And then it hit him. He felt dizzy, and not in a drunk way. He tried to stand but he fell as he rose. He laid there for a second, and as he looked up Scarlett was now standing over him. "It's finally kicking in..." Her voice trailed off as Parting began to lose consciousness. The set up had worked Parting awoke in a panic. He tried to move, but his hands and feet were restrained. He was tried to the bed, and his pounding head darted across the room looking for answers. His vision was blurry, but he could make out Scarlett... and two more figures. After a moment, the trio realized the their captive had awoke. They approached and Parting saw who the other two were and knew he was in trouble. The two before him were none other than Jaedong and Life. Jaedong was a player he had always done well against, his 2 base all ins had been unstoppable against him. And Scarlett was always a whiner, she hated his style and herself had gotten crushed time and time again. But Life didn't make sense. "LIFE YOI WERE NOT EVEN AT THIS TOURNAMENT!" he screamed. "I wouldn't miss this for the world. With you out of the picture, I'll be #1 on Aligulac. HAHA". "Your reign of bullshit has gone on for long enough, Parting. We, and by extension the zergs of the world, have had enough" Scarlett spoke in a serious and ominous tone. From behind Jaedongs back came a knife, and Partings heart sank. He was done for. The knife was held above him. It was hopeless... Suddenly a loud BANG and the door came flying inwards. Scarlett and Life were knocked off their feet. The 3 Zergs looked in awe. At the door was A FUCKING IMMORTAL, and it looked pissed. In a moment of quick thinking, Jaedong rushed the Protoss with the knife, but just before he could get in range a forcefield appeared out of nowhere. The Immortal walked in and blasted the place up, and behind it was a group of zealots and sentries. The zealots untied Parting and said to him "En Taro, Parting" and they all warped back to Aiur and had a great big Protoss party with many beautiful Protoss ladies. THE END That was so beautiful | ||
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BlackLilium
Poland426 Posts
How long does it usually take till they are published? Hours? Days? Weeks? Update: I see the VOD... but seems the audio is muted due to copyright stuff.... (what!?!?) | ||
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Bacon_Infinity
Canada212 Posts
On April 27 2015 18:57 BlackLilium wrote: Still hoping for those VODs or replays.... How long does it usually take till they are published? Hours? Days? Weeks? Update: I see the VOD... but seems the audio is muted due to copyright stuff.... (what!?!?) That was another one of our many screwups (we usually locally record a copy and upload that to youtube) but honestly it would have been better if the entire video got muted. We suggest listening without sound because its like...............................bad | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2181 Posts
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Bacon_Infinity
Canada212 Posts
On April 27 2015 19:17 SharkStarcraft wrote: If i may be honest here the casting quality was really lackluster. The casters just clearly lacked game knowledge and the audio quality was way off too. Still nice games though and i'm sure you guys will improve Glad you see some potential :p the technical difficulties kind of threw us off our game | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On April 27 2015 14:41 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: It's useless. There's still very little reason to ever go above 3-4 bases Did they even try something different than usual? If you play standard then obviously you won't see the changes because your build orders/timings are all based on the fact that you saturate (16) your mineral lines as soon as possible. Maybe it's useless to invite progamers for these kind of showmatches. You should rather find players who have tested it consistently. | ||
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dangthatsright
1158 Posts
On April 27 2015 17:46 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Done. What in gods name have I done. + Show Spoiler [Partings Wild Night] + Parting felt on top of the world. After a gruelling day of play, he was walking out of Dreamhack Tours with another championship under his belt. It wasn't easy, he had to use all 3 builds in his arsenal, he even had to take a 4th base in one game! But that was behind him now, and he was looking to unwind. There was to be an after party at the hotel, and Parting new he wouldn't want to miss it. A few pictures with fans that he didn't want to take, a few autographs none of these French people would be able to read, and he was out the door. As he was about to hop into a cab to head back to the hotel, a unique and recognizable voice called out behind him. "Parting! You aren't just gonna leave so soon are you?" Sasha said as she pushed pushed Parting into the cab as she followed. "I told you we were gonna party after Dreamhack, I know a cool club, let's go!" The said a name the the driver, and off they went. Parting was taken aback a little. He hadn't expected this at all. As they started on their way, Scarlett leaned in and pit her head in his shoulder. If he was aback before, he was now thoroughly confused. Then he remembered the showmatch. He recalled joking with Scarlett a few weeks prior during some random dumb showmatch, but he never thought that his over the top silly flirting would actually maybe start working. He tried to remember all he said, about his shyness and the partying, but it wasn't coming back to him in full. He didn't really care anymore though, this was turning into an interesting night! The club came into view, and Scarlett had the driver stop by the front door. Unbelievably, Scarlett herself payed for the cab! "A pretty girl taking me out and paying for everything after I just won? This is a dream come true!" The club was busy, but when you have a girl with you, you get in surprisingly quick. The place was banging, you couldn't hear yourself think. Scarlett motioned over to the bar and Parting followed. Again, even after he had insisted again and again, she was paying. A few shots each, and Scarlett took him by the hand and led him to the floor. Parting wasnt much of a drinker, he recalled the time he had run into his teammates room after a different tournament shouting "I WANT SEX!", and the few drinks had already made him quite tipsy and disoriented. But when you find yourself in this situation, you can't stop or slow down. So they danced, by themselves and with each other and with others. Parting had no idea how to dance and felt awkward, but the body language of Sasha implied that she didn't mind, or didn't even notice. A few times they went from the bar to the floor and back again, and everytime Sasha danced with him a little more. Never had a girl seemed so into him... This was unreal. Finally his years allining were getting him somewhere. He had money enough, but this is the kind of action he'd been missing. The night went on, but Parting had lost track of time. Scarlett had gone off to the washroom and he was drinking by himself. This was when he decided.He was pushing wasted and he didn't care anymore, he wanted this night to end perfect. His nerves had gone, and he finally was able to say to her when she returned "Want to go back to the hotel for a little fun, honey?" "I thought you'd never ask", she replied with a wink. This was it. It was on like Donkey Kong. They swiftly left the club and hopped in a cab back to the hotel. Parting was getting restless, and didn't know exactly what to do. He tried to make a move, but she politely blocked his first advance with a "I have a surprise for you back at the hotel" and that was all Parting needed to hear. When they arrived, the swiftly moved up to her hotel room. She pushed open the door and drug him in so quickly he almost fell over. "How about one more drink?" She said, and she already had a drink prepared for him. He wasn't sure where she'd gotten it from, but he was too far gone to care. He took the whole thing in one gulp and was ready to pounce. Scarlett said she had to go to the washroom first, and then he'd be in for his surprise. He laid on the bed and waiting. He was never so excited. He waited... and waited... and waited. He wondered what was taking so long. He started to think about how the night had led up to here, and he started to notice something. The way she was overly flirtatious, the way she had denied his advances despite seeming so interested, the hotel room not being locked, the drink that appeared out of nowhere. Something wasn't adding up. And then it hit him. He felt dizzy, and not in a drunk way. He tried to stand but he fell as he rose. He laid there for a second, and as he looked up Scarlett was now standing over him. "It's finally kicking in..." Her voice trailed off as Parting began to lose consciousness. The set up had worked Parting awoke in a panic. He tried to move, but his hands and feet were restrained. He was tried to the bed, and his pounding head darted across the room looking for answers. His vision was blurry, but he could make out Scarlett... and two more figures. After a moment, the trio realized the their captive had awoke. They approached and Parting saw who the other two were and knew he was in trouble. The two before him were none other than Jaedong and Life. Jaedong was a player he had always done well against, his 2 base all ins had been unstoppable against him. And Scarlett was always a whiner, she hated his style and herself had gotten crushed time and time again. But Life didn't make sense. "LIFE YOI WERE NOT EVEN AT THIS TOURNAMENT!" he screamed. "I wouldn't miss this for the world. With you out of the picture, I'll be #1 on Aligulac. HAHA". "Your reign of bullshit has gone on for long enough, Parting. We, and by extension the zergs of the world, have had enough" Scarlett spoke in a serious and ominous tone. From behind Jaedongs back came a knife, and Partings heart sank. He was done for. The knife was held above him. It was hopeless... Suddenly a loud BANG and the door came flying inwards. Scarlett and Life were knocked off their feet. The 3 Zergs looked in awe. At the door was A FUCKING IMMORTAL, and it looked pissed. In a moment of quick thinking, Jaedong rushed the Protoss with the knife, but just before he could get in range a forcefield appeared out of nowhere. The Immortal walked in and blasted the place up, and behind it was a group of zealots and sentries. The zealots untied Parting and said to him "En Taro, Parting" and they all warped back to Aiur and had a great big Protoss party with many beautiful Protoss ladies. THE END Um. Okay then. | ||
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Bacon_Infinity
Canada212 Posts
On April 27 2015 20:01 KingAlphard wrote: Did they even try something different than usual? If you play standard then obviously you won't see the changes because your build orders/timings are all based on the fact that you saturate (16) your mineral lines as soon as possible. Maybe it's useless to invite progamers for these kind of showmatches. You should rather find players who have tested it consistently. It's a tough situation because the best people to base balance around are the top level professional players but because they are professionals in the current system they have very little motivation to actually try changes. For example, we let Parting know exactly what was going to be different and how his play would be affected, he did a bit of his own research but we can't expect him to have made up special build orders or anything considering that he has to be practicing for his Code S match this week | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 27 2015 20:01 KingAlphard wrote: Did they even try something different than usual? If you play standard then obviously you won't see the changes because your build orders/timings are all based on the fact that you saturate (16) your mineral lines as soon as possible. Maybe it's useless to invite progamers for these kind of showmatches. You should rather find players who have tested it consistently. This. Top5 world players are not needed to test such changes, especially as they have their own tight schedule! | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
In order to find a new economy, saturation has to drop heavily while going for the 2nd line of workers. Simply because that makes maxing processes slower, and the effect when expanding is more noticeable. DH model is very low on real advantage, see Lalush' graphs: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/483640-economy-data-collection-thread-hots-dh10-dh8 ZeromuS has been really reluctant and negative to try BW/ SBow econ models, but the naked truth is that they achieve more effect than DH, since there is a lot of actual bouncing. Maps are also quite important. It's time to go back to SC roots. I hope that the Dev team is able to rework the income curve at their will by worker AI. | ||
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BlackLilium
Poland426 Posts
Watching the game number 1. Seems at least Scarlett adapted to the DH mode, maybe even too much, expanding more than it is safe and necessary. However, notice when the natural expansion is taken, numerous drones are immediately transferred, so that both main and natural are closer to 8:8 and not 16:0. In standard that would not be required. Few moments later we read "wow, so rich" - suggesting that she feels the slight income benefit already. She then transferred 6 workers again to 3rd, while keeping 8 at natural - which would again not be that useful in Standard. Those are still small differences, but probably noticeable on the high level of play. Probably she was able to take the 3rd a bit earlier than expected. At the same time PartinG didn't transfer, and was on 12:4 distribution. He was a bit lower on minerals (again: small difference, but noticeable). Watching the game number 2 - I think the resources was not the main problem. Scarlett maxed up many times, floating at 2000+ minerals and gas. At least until she was hit really hard, losing expos and drones - at which time the game was practically lost. Watching the game number 3 - thank you for the income tab. For the brief moment when 4th base was available - you can see that Scarlett's income is at 1600 MpM, while PartinG only at 1300. Sadly she was not strong enough to defend the 4th against a straightforward attack to capitalize on it. Watching the game number 4 - so much cheese Game number 5 - during the Scarlett's cheese we see that 12 workers give about 85% income compared to 18 workers of PartinG. In normal game it would be closer to 67%. This gives her a bit more zerglings to play with... Thank you for brining up the income tab. 3 vs 2 bases with ~50 workers (some were on gas) showed a solid 30% benefit. Unfortunately it didn't translate into enough forces on the field Some additional notes: I am hearing more and more of this "8 worker saturation", which is misleading! It is true that first 8 workers have maximum efficiency, but it is hardly a saturation point. 9-16 workers still give major income boost at about 70-80% efficiency! The "worker pairing" is misleading as well Seems you got confused yourself: you probably saw that workers do pair and thought that this is not DH9, leaving the game... DH9 achieves a decreased income curve in range 8-16 just by having one worker wait for another at the mineral patch. Only at 17+ workers start to bounce a lot. You don't lose that much when you pull workers away from the mineral patch, because when it harvested 1/3 or 2/3, this is remembered with the unit. However, with worker sitting more at the mineral patch, it is easier to catch them with harassment. On April 27 2015 20:22 JCoto wrote: ZeromuS has been really reluctant and negative to try BW/ SBow econ models, but the naked truth is that they achieve more effect than DH, since there is a lot of actual bouncing. Maps are also quite important. It's time to go back to SC roots Bouncing is not the only way to reduce income in 8-16 range. Personally, I felt that Starbow was actually hitting the 16 workers too much and was looking for specifically weaker solutions. You can compare Starbow to DH 3x3 (old version, from 2014) here: http://imgur.com/9YbRFTm | ||
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bypLy
757 Posts
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Daeracon
Sweden198 Posts
On April 27 2015 12:31 Bacon_Infinity wrote: yeah it seems like we would need maps designed specifically with this system in mind for it to work, bases past your third are too difficult to defend on many in the current pool on another note: Sorry for the atrocious production of this event. It is just about right that the biggest and most hyped thing we have ever done for the sc2 scene went crashing and burning into the ground Thanks to everyone who came out, we really appreciate your support and feedback <3<3<3 Really happy you did it, it was interesting to see the games. Hope you get your broadcasting sorted a bit more for next time! Hope you will do more! | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
I'm glad one person liked it at least. I wrote that whole thing on my phone it wasn't easy | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On April 27 2015 20:39 BlackLilium wrote: The "worker pairing" is misleading as well Seems you got confused yourself: you probably saw that workers do pair and thought that this is not DH9, leaving the game... DH9 achieves a decreased income curve in range 8-16 just by having one worker wait for another at the mineral patch. Only at 17+ workers start to bounce a lot. You don't lose that much when you pull workers away from the mineral patch, because when it harvested 1/3 or 2/3, this is remembered with the unit. However, with worker sitting more at the mineral patch, it is easier to catch them with harassment. Bouncing is not the only way to reduce income in 8-16 range. Personally, I felt that Starbow was actually hitting the 16 workers too much and was looking for specifically weaker solutions. You can compare Starbow to DH 3x3 (old version, from 2014) here: http://imgur.com/9YbRFTm Not, I'm not confused. I know that in DH workers don't bounce much, but the antipairing effect is applied by wait times on mineral nodes. I know how it works, I messed a lot with econ mods since Kantuva's first article about worker pairing (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/479750-lotv-economy-worker-pairing). I said about BW/Starbow econ since there, the economy effect is far more accusated, since the 16 worker cap is less efficient than on DH/HotS and the econ effect on lower worker count is higher, with a higher expander advantage (moving up to a 30%). Simply, the SBow econ optimizes 8-10 worker setups while makes 16 workers less efficient than on HotS, emphasizing the targeted effect, while DH keeps a more uniform and flatter income curve, keeping higher worker counts relatively efficient. Maybe we need drastic changes to the econ to really notice the effect. So far, DH9 has been an improvement, but I think that we have to give an opportunity to SBow/BW econ models, which have been extensively tested by SBow mod for more than a year. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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BlackLilium
Poland426 Posts
Your name, in a quotation, appears only later of my post, and the only reason all this is together was because I wanted to avoid double-posting. I am not in favor of Starbow for the reasons stated before, as well as my original thread. I don't think such a drastic change as you proposed is the right way to go. But all this is a personal opinion that we don't have to agree on What we do agree - I hope - is that we need more testing, more games. I thank Bacon_Infinity and everyone behind it for making this game happen, despite all the problems that occurred. I am sure next take on it will be better! | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13961 Posts
On April 27 2015 17:46 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Done. What in gods name have I done. + Show Spoiler [Partings Wild Night] + Parting felt on top of the world. After a gruelling day of play, he was walking out of Dreamhack Tours with another championship under his belt. It wasn't easy, he had to use all 3 builds in his arsenal, he even had to take a 4th base in one game! But that was behind him now, and he was looking to unwind. There was to be an after party at the hotel, and Parting new he wouldn't want to miss it. A few pictures with fans that he didn't want to take, a few autographs none of these French people would be able to read, and he was out the door. As he was about to hop into a cab to head back to the hotel, a unique and recognizable voice called out behind him. "Parting! You aren't just gonna leave so soon are you?" Sasha said as she pushed pushed Parting into the cab as she followed. "I told you we were gonna party after Dreamhack, I know a cool club, let's go!" The said a name the the driver, and off they went. Parting was taken aback a little. He hadn't expected this at all. As they started on their way, Scarlett leaned in and pit her head in his shoulder. If he was aback before, he was now thoroughly confused. Then he remembered the showmatch. He recalled joking with Scarlett a few weeks prior during some random dumb showmatch, but he never thought that his over the top silly flirting would actually maybe start working. He tried to remember all he said, about his shyness and the partying, but it wasn't coming back to him in full. He didn't really care anymore though, this was turning into an interesting night! The club came into view, and Scarlett had the driver stop by the front door. Unbelievably, Scarlett herself payed for the cab! "A pretty girl taking me out and paying for everything after I just won? This is a dream come true!" The club was busy, but when you have a girl with you, you get in surprisingly quick. The place was banging, you couldn't hear yourself think. Scarlett motioned over to the bar and Parting followed. Again, even after he had insisted again and again, she was paying. A few shots each, and Scarlett took him by the hand and led him to the floor. Parting wasnt much of a drinker, he recalled the time he had run into his teammates room after a different tournament shouting "I WANT SEX!", and the few drinks had already made him quite tipsy and disoriented. But when you find yourself in this situation, you can't stop or slow down. So they danced, by themselves and with each other and with others. Parting had no idea how to dance and felt awkward, but the body language of Sasha implied that she didn't mind, or didn't even notice. A few times they went from the bar to the floor and back again, and everytime Sasha danced with him a little more. Never had a girl seemed so into him... This was unreal. Finally his years allining were getting him somewhere. He had money enough, but this is the kind of action he'd been missing. The night went on, but Parting had lost track of time. Scarlett had gone off to the washroom and he was drinking by himself. This was when he decided.He was pushing wasted and he didn't care anymore, he wanted this night to end perfect. His nerves had gone, and he finally was able to say to her when she returned "Want to go back to the hotel for a little fun, honey?" "I thought you'd never ask", she replied with a wink. This was it. It was on like Donkey Kong. They swiftly left the club and hopped in a cab back to the hotel. Parting was getting restless, and didn't know exactly what to do. He tried to make a move, but she politely blocked his first advance with a "I have a surprise for you back at the hotel" and that was all Parting needed to hear. When they arrived, the swiftly moved up to her hotel room. She pushed open the door and drug him in so quickly he almost fell over. "How about one more drink?" She said, and she already had a drink prepared for him. He wasn't sure where she'd gotten it from, but he was too far gone to care. He took the whole thing in one gulp and was ready to pounce. Scarlett said she had to go to the washroom first, and then he'd be in for his surprise. He laid on the bed and waiting. He was never so excited. He waited... and waited... and waited. He wondered what was taking so long. He started to think about how the night had led up to here, and he started to notice something. The way she was overly flirtatious, the way she had denied his advances despite seeming so interested, the hotel room not being locked, the drink that appeared out of nowhere. Something wasn't adding up. And then it hit him. He felt dizzy, and not in a drunk way. He tried to stand but he fell as he rose. He laid there for a second, and as he looked up Scarlett was now standing over him. "It's finally kicking in..." Her voice trailed off as Parting began to lose consciousness. The set up had worked Parting awoke in a panic. He tried to move, but his hands and feet were restrained. He was tried to the bed, and his pounding head darted across the room looking for answers. His vision was blurry, but he could make out Scarlett... and two more figures. After a moment, the trio realized the their captive had awoke. They approached and Parting saw who the other two were and knew he was in trouble. The two before him were none other than Jaedong and Life. Jaedong was a player he had always done well against, his 2 base all ins had been unstoppable against him. And Scarlett was always a whiner, she hated his style and herself had gotten crushed time and time again. But Life didn't make sense. "LIFE YOI WERE NOT EVEN AT THIS TOURNAMENT!" he screamed. "I wouldn't miss this for the world. With you out of the picture, I'll be #1 on Aligulac. HAHA". "Your reign of bullshit has gone on for long enough, Parting. We, and by extension the zergs of the world, have had enough" Scarlett spoke in a serious and ominous tone. From behind Jaedongs back came a knife, and Partings heart sank. He was done for. The knife was held above him. It was hopeless... Suddenly a loud BANG and the door came flying inwards. Scarlett and Life were knocked off their feet. The 3 Zergs looked in awe. At the door was A FUCKING IMMORTAL, and it looked pissed. In a moment of quick thinking, Jaedong rushed the Protoss with the knife, but just before he could get in range a forcefield appeared out of nowhere. The Immortal walked in and blasted the place up, and behind it was a group of zealots and sentries. The zealots untied Parting and said to him "En Taro, Parting" and they all warped back to Aiur and had a great big Protoss party with many beautiful Protoss ladies. THE END replace scarlett with harstem and show this to parting | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On April 28 2015 00:03 Cricketer12 wrote: replace scarlett with harstem and show this to parting But then it's not all zergs and it doesn't work as well... i might still show it to Parting though. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On April 27 2015 17:46 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Done. What in gods name have I done. + Show Spoiler [Partings Wild Night] + Parting felt on top of the world. After a gruelling day of play, he was walking out of Dreamhack Tours with another championship under his belt. It wasn't easy, he had to use all 3 builds in his arsenal, he even had to take a 4th base in one game! But that was behind him now, and he was looking to unwind. There was to be an after party at the hotel, and Parting new he wouldn't want to miss it. A few pictures with fans that he didn't want to take, a few autographs none of these French people would be able to read, and he was out the door. As he was about to hop into a cab to head back to the hotel, a unique and recognizable voice called out behind him. "Parting! You aren't just gonna leave so soon are you?" Sasha said as she pushed pushed Parting into the cab as she followed. "I told you we were gonna party after Dreamhack, I know a cool club, let's go!" The said a name the the driver, and off they went. Parting was taken aback a little. He hadn't expected this at all. As they started on their way, Scarlett leaned in and pit her head in his shoulder. If he was aback before, he was now thoroughly confused. Then he remembered the showmatch. He recalled joking with Scarlett a few weeks prior during some random dumb showmatch, but he never thought that his over the top silly flirting would actually maybe start working. He tried to remember all he said, about his shyness and the partying, but it wasn't coming back to him in full. He didn't really care anymore though, this was turning into an interesting night! The club came into view, and Scarlett had the driver stop by the front door. Unbelievably, Scarlett herself payed for the cab! "A pretty girl taking me out and paying for everything after I just won? This is a dream come true!" The club was busy, but when you have a girl with you, you get in surprisingly quick. The place was banging, you couldn't hear yourself think. Scarlett motioned over to the bar and Parting followed. Again, even after he had insisted again and again, she was paying. A few shots each, and Scarlett took him by the hand and led him to the floor. Parting wasnt much of a drinker, he recalled the time he had run into his teammates room after a different tournament shouting "I WANT SEX!", and the few drinks had already made him quite tipsy and disoriented. But when you find yourself in this situation, you can't stop or slow down. So they danced, by themselves and with each other and with others. Parting had no idea how to dance and felt awkward, but the body language of Sasha implied that she didn't mind, or didn't even notice. A few times they went from the bar to the floor and back again, and everytime Sasha danced with him a little more. Never had a girl seemed so into him... This was unreal. Finally his years allining were getting him somewhere. He had money enough, but this is the kind of action he'd been missing. The night went on, but Parting had lost track of time. Scarlett had gone off to the washroom and he was drinking by himself. This was when he decided.He was pushing wasted and he didn't care anymore, he wanted this night to end perfect. His nerves had gone, and he finally was able to say to her when she returned "Want to go back to the hotel for a little fun, honey?" "I thought you'd never ask", she replied with a wink. This was it. It was on like Donkey Kong. They swiftly left the club and hopped in a cab back to the hotel. Parting was getting restless, and didn't know exactly what to do. He tried to make a move, but she politely blocked his first advance with a "I have a surprise for you back at the hotel" and that was all Parting needed to hear. When they arrived, the swiftly moved up to her hotel room. She pushed open the door and drug him in so quickly he almost fell over. "How about one more drink?" She said, and she already had a drink prepared for him. He wasn't sure where she'd gotten it from, but he was too far gone to care. He took the whole thing in one gulp and was ready to pounce. Scarlett said she had to go to the washroom first, and then he'd be in for his surprise. He laid on the bed and waiting. He was never so excited. He waited... and waited... and waited. He wondered what was taking so long. He started to think about how the night had led up to here, and he started to notice something. The way she was overly flirtatious, the way she had denied his advances despite seeming so interested, the hotel room not being locked, the drink that appeared out of nowhere. Something wasn't adding up. And then it hit him. He felt dizzy, and not in a drunk way. He tried to stand but he fell as he rose. He laid there for a second, and as he looked up Scarlett was now standing over him. "It's finally kicking in..." Her voice trailed off as Parting began to lose consciousness. The set up had worked Parting awoke in a panic. He tried to move, but his hands and feet were restrained. He was tried to the bed, and his pounding head darted across the room looking for answers. His vision was blurry, but he could make out Scarlett... and two more figures. After a moment, the trio realized the their captive had awoke. They approached and Parting saw who the other two were and knew he was in trouble. The two before him were none other than Jaedong and Life. Jaedong was a player he had always done well against, his 2 base all ins had been unstoppable against him. And Scarlett was always a whiner, she hated his style and herself had gotten crushed time and time again. But Life didn't make sense. "LIFE YOI WERE NOT EVEN AT THIS TOURNAMENT!" he screamed. "I wouldn't miss this for the world. With you out of the picture, I'll be #1 on Aligulac. HAHA". "Your reign of bullshit has gone on for long enough, Parting. We, and by extension the zergs of the world, have had enough" Scarlett spoke in a serious and ominous tone. From behind Jaedongs back came a knife, and Partings heart sank. He was done for. The knife was held above him. It was hopeless... Suddenly a loud BANG and the door came flying inwards. Scarlett and Life were knocked off their feet. The 3 Zergs looked in awe. At the door was A FUCKING IMMORTAL, and it looked pissed. In a moment of quick thinking, Jaedong rushed the Protoss with the knife, but just before he could get in range a forcefield appeared out of nowhere. The Immortal walked in and blasted the place up, and behind it was a group of zealots and sentries. The zealots untied Parting and said to him "En Taro, Parting" and they all warped back to Aiur and had a great big Protoss party with many beautiful Protoss ladies. THE END The writing was amateur, but the twists and turns had me at the edge of my seat, thinking, "what's going to happen next?" I rate this somewhere between Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet and Twilight  | ||
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highsis
259 Posts
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nick00bot
326 Posts
On April 27 2015 17:46 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Done. What in gods name have I done. + Show Spoiler [Partings Wild Night] + Parting felt on top of the world. After a gruelling day of play, he was walking out of Dreamhack Tours with another championship under his belt. It wasn't easy, he had to use all 3 builds in his arsenal, he even had to take a 4th base in one game! But that was behind him now, and he was looking to unwind. There was to be an after party at the hotel, and Parting new he wouldn't want to miss it. A few pictures with fans that he didn't want to take, a few autographs none of these French people would be able to read, and he was out the door. As he was about to hop into a cab to head back to the hotel, a unique and recognizable voice called out behind him. "Parting! You aren't just gonna leave so soon are you?" Sasha said as she pushed pushed Parting into the cab as she followed. "I told you we were gonna party after Dreamhack, I know a cool club, let's go!" The said a name the the driver, and off they went. Parting was taken aback a little. He hadn't expected this at all. As they started on their way, Scarlett leaned in and pit her head in his shoulder. If he was aback before, he was now thoroughly confused. Then he remembered the showmatch. He recalled joking with Scarlett a few weeks prior during some random dumb showmatch, but he never thought that his over the top silly flirting would actually maybe start working. He tried to remember all he said, about his shyness and the partying, but it wasn't coming back to him in full. He didn't really care anymore though, this was turning into an interesting night! The club came into view, and Scarlett had the driver stop by the front door. Unbelievably, Scarlett herself payed for the cab! "A pretty girl taking me out and paying for everything after I just won? This is a dream come true!" The club was busy, but when you have a girl with you, you get in surprisingly quick. The place was banging, you couldn't hear yourself think. Scarlett motioned over to the bar and Parting followed. Again, even after he had insisted again and again, she was paying. A few shots each, and Scarlett took him by the hand and led him to the floor. Parting wasnt much of a drinker, he recalled the time he had run into his teammates room after a different tournament shouting "I WANT SEX!", and the few drinks had already made him quite tipsy and disoriented. But when you find yourself in this situation, you can't stop or slow down. So they danced, by themselves and with each other and with others. Parting had no idea how to dance and felt awkward, but the body language of Sasha implied that she didn't mind, or didn't even notice. A few times they went from the bar to the floor and back again, and everytime Sasha danced with him a little more. Never had a girl seemed so into him... This was unreal. Finally his years allining were getting him somewhere. He had money enough, but this is the kind of action he'd been missing. The night went on, but Parting had lost track of time. Scarlett had gone off to the washroom and he was drinking by himself. This was when he decided.He was pushing wasted and he didn't care anymore, he wanted this night to end perfect. His nerves had gone, and he finally was able to say to her when she returned "Want to go back to the hotel for a little fun, honey?" "I thought you'd never ask", she replied with a wink. This was it. It was on like Donkey Kong. They swiftly left the club and hopped in a cab back to the hotel. Parting was getting restless, and didn't know exactly what to do. He tried to make a move, but she politely blocked his first advance with a "I have a surprise for you back at the hotel" and that was all Parting needed to hear. When they arrived, the swiftly moved up to her hotel room. She pushed open the door and drug him in so quickly he almost fell over. "How about one more drink?" She said, and she already had a drink prepared for him. He wasn't sure where she'd gotten it from, but he was too far gone to care. He took the whole thing in one gulp and was ready to pounce. Scarlett said she had to go to the washroom first, and then he'd be in for his surprise. He laid on the bed and waiting. He was never so excited. He waited... and waited... and waited. He wondered what was taking so long. He started to think about how the night had led up to here, and he started to notice something. The way she was overly flirtatious, the way she had denied his advances despite seeming so interested, the hotel room not being locked, the drink that appeared out of nowhere. Something wasn't adding up. And then it hit him. He felt dizzy, and not in a drunk way. He tried to stand but he fell as he rose. He laid there for a second, and as he looked up Scarlett was now standing over him. "It's finally kicking in..." Her voice trailed off as Parting began to lose consciousness. The set up had worked Parting awoke in a panic. He tried to move, but his hands and feet were restrained. He was tried to the bed, and his pounding head darted across the room looking for answers. His vision was blurry, but he could make out Scarlett... and two more figures. After a moment, the trio realized the their captive had awoke. They approached and Parting saw who the other two were and knew he was in trouble. The two before him were none other than Jaedong and Life. Jaedong was a player he had always done well against, his 2 base all ins had been unstoppable against him. And Scarlett was always a whiner, she hated his style and herself had gotten crushed time and time again. But Life didn't make sense. "LIFE YOI WERE NOT EVEN AT THIS TOURNAMENT!" he screamed. "I wouldn't miss this for the world. With you out of the picture, I'll be #1 on Aligulac. HAHA". "Your reign of bullshit has gone on for long enough, Parting. We, and by extension the zergs of the world, have had enough" Scarlett spoke in a serious and ominous tone. From behind Jaedongs back came a knife, and Partings heart sank. He was done for. The knife was held above him. It was hopeless... Suddenly a loud BANG and the door came flying inwards. Scarlett and Life were knocked off their feet. The 3 Zergs looked in awe. At the door was A FUCKING IMMORTAL, and it looked pissed. In a moment of quick thinking, Jaedong rushed the Protoss with the knife, but just before he could get in range a forcefield appeared out of nowhere. The Immortal walked in and blasted the place up, and behind it was a group of zealots and sentries. The zealots untied Parting and said to him "En Taro, Parting" and they all warped back to Aiur and had a great big Protoss party with many beautiful Protoss ladies. THE END Sitting in the library reading this is really making me question what I'm doing with my life | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On April 28 2015 01:29 nick00bot wrote: Sitting in the library reading this is really making me question what I'm doing with my life How do you think I felt writing it at 2am on my phone cause I couldn't sleep? | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On April 27 2015 23:22 BlackLilium wrote: JCoto, I never doubted that you understand DH and Starbow. I wrote it as a comment to the VODs. Your name, in a quotation, appears only later of my post, and the only reason all this is together was because I wanted to avoid double-posting. I am not in favor of Starbow for the reasons stated before, as well as my original thread. I don't think such a drastic change as you proposed is the right way to go. But all this is a personal opinion that we don't have to agree on What we do agree - I hope - is that we need more testing, more games. I thank Bacon_Infinity and everyone behind it for making this game happen, despite all the problems that occurred. I am sure next take on it will be better! Sorry, I misread that a bit. I also think that we need a lot of testing, and what's more, testing on HotS and on LotV once the "balance" gets a bit more equal and defined for all three races. HotS and LotV are really different since in LotV, with the faster game start, "build order wins" have less impact than on HotS (consider a theoreticall balanced situation, even if LotV is broken right now in many aspects) However, I think that in HotS meta, DH9 is insufficient, as the income rates move too similar to HotS econ when on 16 workers, meaning that the effect is very very subtle. For example, 2 base Toss vs 3 base Zerg from what we saw in the dedicated matchup is almost the same. Numerical advantage from spreading workers on 4 bases from Scarlett was very very subtle, as Lalush' graphs predicted. To produce a change, we'd need to optimize the income around a lower worker count (f.e. 12 workers) and reduce the maximum income per base. If the 16 worker "soft cap" doesn't change, the meta is not going to promote very noticeable changes, since we will be still playing around the 3-base cap. However, DH9 would be very interesting to see in ZvT vs mech. Also, I valorate a lot your effort and dedication in the model Simply, I'm pro-change to test more drastic options. I also think that a BW econ and decreased income at high number of workers promotes more expansions and early aggression with limited production, something that is very interesting strategically. LotV econ model also experiments with reduced econ, and the results are IMAO quite satisfying in that aspect. Probably LotV econ is interesting in that single aspect only XD. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On April 27 2015 23:17 Barrin wrote: They already have the staff in place, and it would take 1 of them less than an hour to implement such a change. Still watching games now. Change seems subtle, but I'm still convinced an efficiency curve is better (though maybe DH9 implementation is not ideal). Do keep in mind this is a very small sample set. That's not how funding from upper management works in a large company. Everything they do must be approve and charged to a specific team for specific reasons. It's not a question of "does blizzard have the money" it's a question of is this example convincing to number-crunchers in suits who have final say on what products get funded, by how much, for what reasons. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz5RrInxbPBbX9zfTscLvcw/videos replays haven't been posted | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
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coolman123123
146 Posts
On April 27 2015 23:17 Barrin wrote: They already have the staff in place, and it would take 1 of them less than an hour to implement such a change. Ha, if only it were that simple. Yes, they could make the change, but do they have time to, as DK said, "iterate and polish" it? Do we even know it's better than the current model? This is why there has been no chance from the start that this change will be implemented, and worse yet public opinion seems to have turned quite a bit on this as the bandwagoners have left. DH is dead, move on please. | ||
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Bacon_Infinity
Canada212 Posts
On April 28 2015 04:57 Deathstar wrote: They said they'd upload the stream at least on their YT page, but it's not up yet (are they doing a lot of editing or something LOL) https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz5RrInxbPBbX9zfTscLvcw/videos replays haven't been posted Sorry, we have been trying but YouTube keeps rejecting the uploads. Instead we made highlights and they will be saved on our twitch page | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On April 28 2015 06:17 coolman123123 wrote: Ha, if only it were that simple. Yes, they could make the change, but do they have time to, as DK said, "iterate and polish" it? Do we even know it's better than the current model? This is why there has been no chance from the start that this change will be implemented, and worse yet public opinion seems to have turned quite a bit on this as the bandwagoners have left. DH is dead, move on please. Please, that isn't helpful. We all know that it isn't a problem with staffing or not having the skills to staff but more appropriately--can we get the guys who signs the developers paychecks to agree. I'm sure the team is talented enough to scrap the code to nothing, start from scratch, and have a better RTS than anything else on the market--but will they still be payed by blizzards or will they have to leave and start up a new company since they can't get approval. The DH system definitely had potential, but since I didn't see the games I was asking if it was good enough to at least maintain the conversation or would David Kim be all "see, this is why it wouldn't have done much at all to do this." | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On April 28 2015 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote: Please, that isn't helpful. We all know that it isn't a problem with staffing or not having the skills to staff but more appropriately--can we get the guys who signs the developers paychecks to agree. I'm sure the team is talented enough to scrap the code to nothing, start from scratch, and have a better RTS than anything else on the market--but will they still be payed by blizzards or will they have to leave and start up a new company since they can't get approval. The DH system definitely had potential, but since I didn't see the games I was asking if it was good enough to at least maintain the conversation or would David Kim be all "see, this is why it wouldn't have done much at all to do this." It's hard to say. David Kim said the system might be too harsh in his official post but the show match showed that it may be too mild. The community bandwagon is starting to shift away from DH because it doesn't turn everything upside down (it was never meant to). I think it's important at this point to more deeply analyse the matches and explain some of the subtle changes that may not be so apparent to win back some community favor. | ||
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Bacon_Infinity
Canada212 Posts
http://drop.sc/398189 http://drop.sc/398190 http://drop.sc/398191 http://drop.sc/398192 http://drop.sc/398193 | ||
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xtorn
4060 Posts
On April 28 2015 12:10 Bacon_Infinity wrote: Here are the replays from yesterday's games for anyone who wants to do some economy analysis! I know the showmatch was done in the name of science, but did both pros agree to have them shared like this? Especially with them having upcoming tournaments | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
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MaximilianKohler
122 Posts
On April 28 2015 08:34 knyttym wrote:David Kim said the system might be too harsh in his official post but the show match showed that it may be too mild. Where did he post that? | ||
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BlackLilium
Poland426 Posts
The infamous resourcing thread: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/17085919227 | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On April 29 2015 14:49 BlackLilium wrote: The infamous resourcing thread: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/17085919227 The problem was that this test does not prove enough difference to convince Kim's side to change stance. He had fears it was too strong. But it turns out it's about the same. If it's about the same--then he has nothing to bring up the chain of command to prove to them it's worth changing their minds. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Bacon_Infinity
Canada212 Posts
On April 30 2015 02:44 The_Red_Viper wrote: It was about the same cause nobody had actual builds for this economy. We can vouch that Scarlett had at the very least spent a good amount of time theorycrafting what would work best and was adjusting her builds accordingly. We were talking to her before the show started about what she thought. The changes also seem to be a lot more subtle than people were expecting, it's nowhere near as radical as the 12 worker start and all the other changes that were made in LotV | ||
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MaximilianKohler
122 Posts
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BlackLilium
Poland426 Posts
On May 01 2015 07:13 MaximilianKohler wrote: Are there any negative outcomes from a more drastic change that would make 1 drone on each mineral vs 2 drones, equal to the current comparison between 2 & 3? If I understand correctly - you are asking how it would be if 8 was an optimal point and at 16 we would achieve full saturation? It would turn Starcraft upside down. Either 8-worker income would be way too high, or 16-worker income too low. If saturating was so easy, it would probably also reduce the tactic of "cutting of workers". The difference between cutting off or not would be smaller, since everyone would be above 8 worker anyway. 8-worker too high overbufs early game: all-in one-base play. By the time you have your expo up, enemy is hitting you with something worse than a 4-gate we know so well from WoL... 16-worker too low would slow down overall game. We would see smaller battles, and slower progression. This would be a deflation of minerals: everything would feel more expensive for the same nominal cost. It would make raising another base more difficult, because 400 minerals would mean much more to you. It would also debalance mineral-to-gas ration. Mining gas would have to be nerfed as well, or all prices rebalanced. I don't say that this is not doable. It would require much serious balancing though. Double Harvest tries to introduce the concept of diminishing returns, without putting other aspects of the game completely off balance. | ||
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MaximilianKohler
122 Posts
What I mean is that currently 2 workers per mineral is optimal, and 3 per is full saturation. So what if we buffed the TL proposal so that 1 per mineral is optimal, and 2 per is full saturation. You could do it simply by increasing the time they spend on each mineral and increasing the amount of minerals they bring back. | ||
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BlackLilium
Poland426 Posts
On May 02 2015 01:10 MaximilianKohler wrote: Maybe you misunderstood me, because I don't see any of those being real possibilities. What I mean is that currently 2 workers per mineral is optimal, and 3 per is full saturation. So what if we buffed the TL proposal so that 1 per mineral is optimal, and 2 per is full saturation. You could do it simply by increasing the time they spend on each mineral and increasing the amount of minerals they bring back. That's how I understood. The problems I see are not on the technical side: yes we can do it. The question is what would be the outcome? I think the list I gave in previous point may be problematic. Getting workers to saturate base would be way too easy and the only limiting factor would be the number of bases. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 03 2015 02:01 BlackLilium wrote: That's how I understood. The problems I see are not on the technical side: yes we can do it. The question is what would be the outcome? I think the list I gave in previous point may be problematic. Getting workers to saturate base would be way too easy and the only limiting factor would be the number of bases. This is why I keep reiterating that the expansion model is arbitrary. All models have their drawbacks and gains, but for the most part, so long as maps fit whatever model is present, players will figure out how to play in that economic model. What tools they have to play in that economic model will determine style of game play much more than how much minerals are picked up in X seconds over Y trips. EDIT: A great example of this is WoL's economic model in WoL's early map designs. WoL's economic model had 3base saturation as the optimal number. So the map design made it so that getting more than one base was extremely difficult with lots of openings for aggression. This made the games very 1-2 base focused, with "late game armies" being very 3 base focused. They then made maps easier to defend and 3base play became standard. Suddenly people are complaining that extra bases don't matter. Well of course they don't matter--the econ was made with 1 base map designs as the norm. When that economic model was forced into maps it was not designed for, it broke. | ||
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MaximilianKohler
122 Posts
IE: smaller, constant battles. | ||
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Vexon
United States23 Posts
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Bacon_Infinity
Canada212 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/bacon_infinity/c/6607584 http://www.twitch.tv/bacon_infinity/c/6607600 | ||
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