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On March 30 2015 02:32 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2015 02:31 Alchemik wrote:On March 30 2015 02:31 Heartland wrote:On March 30 2015 02:28 KeksX wrote:On March 30 2015 02:26 Heartland wrote:On March 30 2015 02:24 KeksX wrote:On March 30 2015 02:23 Heartland wrote:On March 30 2015 02:22 KeksX wrote:
I have never seen this gold base play work for zergs, anyone see a zerg winning with this...ever?
Protoss can reinforce right in your base, there's no such thing as a defender's advantage in ZvP, so why do this? of course there is a defenders advantage in ZvP, but gold bases have a lot less of those advantages because they should be harder to hold. Lack of ramps, more open space, etc What is that defender's advantage exactly? Protoss almost has a smaller reinforcement distance than zerg, so I find that hard to believe. On March 30 2015 02:23 sudete wrote:On March 30 2015 02:22 KeksX wrote:
I have never seen this gold base play work for zergs, anyone see a zerg winning with this...ever?
Protoss can reinforce right in your base, there's no such thing as a defender's advantage in ZvP, so why do this? You might want to check out CatZ's stream I'm inclined to say that CatZ faces much worse opponents on the ladder than those guys. I'm talking tournament games. when I say defenders advantage I mean stuff like ramps, chokes/open areas. Distance is part of it, and sure, warp in does negate that to some degree but you still often have to run up a ramp, or pass through places where OL:s can spot your advance Since when do ramps and chokes help Zerg in ZvP? Open areas maybe, but Protoss has a way to negate that as well. In ZvP there's just no defender's advantage that you can rely on. So a strategy that relies on you having it is stupid against Protoss imho. With that gold base you're putting yourself out there soo much, that any capable Protoss should be able to abuse it. I gave example of general things that I mean when I say defenders advantage. And ramps do help Zerg, Roach concaves, queen or spine fire down from it and no vision up it for toss in some situations. I think it's actually the one thing in sc2 that can be considered really imbalanced. Hydra is just way worse than Parting. ramps are imba? No, Zergs with golds are (more in the speedling expand into gold scenario)
14/14 into gold is my new favorite zvz build on Expedition
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On March 30 2015 02:32 Nesto wrote:
well, 2015 looks like a great year for finals so far ;>
hey life v parting and life v maru were pretty good
okay actually just life v parting
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What pool was this? 14 gas 14 pool?
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On March 30 2015 02:31 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2015 02:28 KeksX wrote:On March 30 2015 02:26 Heartland wrote:On March 30 2015 02:24 KeksX wrote:On March 30 2015 02:23 Heartland wrote:On March 30 2015 02:22 KeksX wrote:
I have never seen this gold base play work for zergs, anyone see a zerg winning with this...ever?
Protoss can reinforce right in your base, there's no such thing as a defender's advantage in ZvP, so why do this? of course there is a defenders advantage in ZvP, but gold bases have a lot less of those advantages because they should be harder to hold. Lack of ramps, more open space, etc What is that defender's advantage exactly? Protoss almost has a smaller reinforcement distance than zerg, so I find that hard to believe. On March 30 2015 02:23 sudete wrote:On March 30 2015 02:22 KeksX wrote:
I have never seen this gold base play work for zergs, anyone see a zerg winning with this...ever?
Protoss can reinforce right in your base, there's no such thing as a defender's advantage in ZvP, so why do this? You might want to check out CatZ's stream I'm inclined to say that CatZ faces much worse opponents on the ladder than those guys. I'm talking tournament games. when I say defenders advantage I mean stuff like ramps, chokes/open areas. Distance is part of it, and sure, warp in does negate that to some degree but you still often have to run up a ramp, or pass through places where OL:s can spot your advance Since when do ramps and chokes help Zerg in ZvP? Open areas maybe, but Protoss has a way to negate that as well. In ZvP there's just no defender's advantage that you can rely on. So a strategy that relies on you having it is stupid against Protoss imho. With that gold base you're putting yourself out there soo much, that any capable Protoss should be able to abuse it. I gave example of general things that I mean when I say defenders advantage. And ramps do help Zerg, Roach concaves, queen or spine fire down from it and no vision up it for toss in some situations. I think it's actually the one thing in sc2 that can be considered really imbalanced. Hydra is just way worse than Parting.
The situation you gave is not a defender's advantage it's a vision advantage, if you're a Protoss running up a ramp you have no vision of you're stupid. But once you have vision that ramp is not really doing anything especially since you can cut off the army with forcefields etc, and setting up a concave inside a base is really tough if not impossible depending on the size of the base.
Maybe we're having a definition issue but Defender's Advantage is something you get by the enemy being "out there" instead of his home, resulting shorter reinforcement times for you and the ability to pick better engagements in your favor and then being in an advantage once the fight is over. In ZvP thats not the case, he reinforces next to the fight and due to Forcefields etc he can dictate when the fight happens and he can also warp out should the fight not go in his favor.
I'm not even talking about imbalances or something like that, thats just how the matchup works.
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Hydra can do whatever he likes now that there won't be wg for so long
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Turned out OK for Hydra I guess ?
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On March 30 2015 02:35 Heartland wrote:
Hydra can do whatever he likes now that there won't be wg for so long
no balls to take a gold like a man
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*scribbling on clipboard*
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Any zerg who isn't Life will 100% lose to parting.
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This resets protoss to stone age in terms of tech, but income wise hydra is behind
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On March 30 2015 02:34 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2015 02:31 Heartland wrote:On March 30 2015 02:28 KeksX wrote:On March 30 2015 02:26 Heartland wrote:On March 30 2015 02:24 KeksX wrote:On March 30 2015 02:23 Heartland wrote:On March 30 2015 02:22 KeksX wrote:
I have never seen this gold base play work for zergs, anyone see a zerg winning with this...ever?
Protoss can reinforce right in your base, there's no such thing as a defender's advantage in ZvP, so why do this? of course there is a defenders advantage in ZvP, but gold bases have a lot less of those advantages because they should be harder to hold. Lack of ramps, more open space, etc What is that defender's advantage exactly? Protoss almost has a smaller reinforcement distance than zerg, so I find that hard to believe. On March 30 2015 02:23 sudete wrote:On March 30 2015 02:22 KeksX wrote:
I have never seen this gold base play work for zergs, anyone see a zerg winning with this...ever?
Protoss can reinforce right in your base, there's no such thing as a defender's advantage in ZvP, so why do this? You might want to check out CatZ's stream I'm inclined to say that CatZ faces much worse opponents on the ladder than those guys. I'm talking tournament games. when I say defenders advantage I mean stuff like ramps, chokes/open areas. Distance is part of it, and sure, warp in does negate that to some degree but you still often have to run up a ramp, or pass through places where OL:s can spot your advance Since when do ramps and chokes help Zerg in ZvP? Open areas maybe, but Protoss has a way to negate that as well. In ZvP there's just no defender's advantage that you can rely on. So a strategy that relies on you having it is stupid against Protoss imho. With that gold base you're putting yourself out there soo much, that any capable Protoss should be able to abuse it. I gave example of general things that I mean when I say defenders advantage. And ramps do help Zerg, Roach concaves, queen or spine fire down from it and no vision up it for toss in some situations. I think it's actually the one thing in sc2 that can be considered really imbalanced. Hydra is just way worse than Parting. The situation you gave is not a defender's advantage it's a vision advantage, if you're a Protoss running up a ramp you have no vision of you're stupid. But once you have vision that ramp is not really doing anything especially since you can cut off the army with forcefields etc. Maybe we're having a definition issue but Defender's Advantage is something you get by the enemy being "out there" instead of his home, resulting shorter reinforcement times for you and the ability to pick better engagements in your favor and then being in an advantage once the fight is over. In ZvP thats not the case, he reinforces next to the fight and due to Forcefields etc he can dictate when the fight happens and he can also warp out should the fight not go in his favor. I'm not even talking about imbalances or something like that, thats just how the matchup works.
Yeah, but why are there ramps in maps on mains and sometimes naturals and thirds? To give that advantage. Anyway, you're right, we just don't agree with what the term means and we can probably just leave this discussion : )
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I feel like 14/14 is a lot better than what casters usually give it credit for. I remember Artosis shitting on it often in GSL, but really the build doesn't set you behind THAT much, especially vs gateway expands.
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On March 30 2015 02:35 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2015 02:35 Heartland wrote:
Hydra can do whatever he likes now that there won't be wg for so long no balls to take a gold like a man
if this was leenock he woulda taken both
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On March 30 2015 02:36 KingofdaHipHop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2015 02:35 Ej_ wrote:On March 30 2015 02:35 Heartland wrote:
Hydra can do whatever he likes now that there won't be wg for so long no balls to take a gold like a man if this was leenock he woulda taken both
firecake would have taken 4 hatches before pool
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On March 30 2015 02:36 Ej_ wrote:
I feel like 14/14 is a lot better than what casters usually give it credit for. I remember Artosis shitting on it often in GSL, but really the build doesn't set you behind THAT much, especially vs gateway expands.
if Protoss doesn't take much damage with gate expand, he can just deny Zerg's 3rd easily for a long time
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On March 30 2015 02:37 theBALLS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2015 02:36 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On March 30 2015 02:35 Ej_ wrote:On March 30 2015 02:35 Heartland wrote:
Hydra can do whatever he likes now that there won't be wg for so long no balls to take a gold like a man if this was leenock he woulda taken both firecake would have taken 4 hatches before pool
Parting would just cannon rush vs a foreigner
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On March 30 2015 02:36 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2015 02:34 KeksX wrote:On March 30 2015 02:31 Heartland wrote:On March 30 2015 02:28 KeksX wrote:On March 30 2015 02:26 Heartland wrote:On March 30 2015 02:24 KeksX wrote:On March 30 2015 02:23 Heartland wrote:On March 30 2015 02:22 KeksX wrote:
I have never seen this gold base play work for zergs, anyone see a zerg winning with this...ever?
Protoss can reinforce right in your base, there's no such thing as a defender's advantage in ZvP, so why do this? of course there is a defenders advantage in ZvP, but gold bases have a lot less of those advantages because they should be harder to hold. Lack of ramps, more open space, etc What is that defender's advantage exactly? Protoss almost has a smaller reinforcement distance than zerg, so I find that hard to believe. On March 30 2015 02:23 sudete wrote:On March 30 2015 02:22 KeksX wrote:
I have never seen this gold base play work for zergs, anyone see a zerg winning with this...ever?
Protoss can reinforce right in your base, there's no such thing as a defender's advantage in ZvP, so why do this? You might want to check out CatZ's stream I'm inclined to say that CatZ faces much worse opponents on the ladder than those guys. I'm talking tournament games. when I say defenders advantage I mean stuff like ramps, chokes/open areas. Distance is part of it, and sure, warp in does negate that to some degree but you still often have to run up a ramp, or pass through places where OL:s can spot your advance Since when do ramps and chokes help Zerg in ZvP? Open areas maybe, but Protoss has a way to negate that as well. In ZvP there's just no defender's advantage that you can rely on. So a strategy that relies on you having it is stupid against Protoss imho. With that gold base you're putting yourself out there soo much, that any capable Protoss should be able to abuse it. I gave example of general things that I mean when I say defenders advantage. And ramps do help Zerg, Roach concaves, queen or spine fire down from it and no vision up it for toss in some situations. I think it's actually the one thing in sc2 that can be considered really imbalanced. Hydra is just way worse than Parting. The situation you gave is not a defender's advantage it's a vision advantage, if you're a Protoss running up a ramp you have no vision of you're stupid. But once you have vision that ramp is not really doing anything especially since you can cut off the army with forcefields etc. Maybe we're having a definition issue but Defender's Advantage is something you get by the enemy being "out there" instead of his home, resulting shorter reinforcement times for you and the ability to pick better engagements in your favor and then being in an advantage once the fight is over. In ZvP thats not the case, he reinforces next to the fight and due to Forcefields etc he can dictate when the fight happens and he can also warp out should the fight not go in his favor. I'm not even talking about imbalances or something like that, thats just how the matchup works. Yeah, but why are there ramps in maps on mains and sometimes naturals and thirds? To give that advantage. Anyway, you're right, we just don't agree with what the term means and we can probably just leave this discussion : )
You actually answered that question yourself, they're giving other advantages in many situations and also for other races in general, I'm specifically saying that it's only the case in ZvP because TvP/TvT/PvP are completely different in that regard.
But you're right, let's focus on the game and hope it won't turn out a stomp now!
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i miss Scarlets creep spread 
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Parting needs to bring his best control now
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EPT
