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On June 18 2015 03:19 Spect8rCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 00:03 Hider wrote:On June 17 2015 23:54 Rehio wrote:On June 17 2015 23:17 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
I dont watch because I dislike the maps...
Can it be the same for the teams that dont want to partake?
Is it a TB thing?
also the line ups are generally weak ( from what I have watched).
the sandisk tourney he made last year was so epic. Its THE best online event I have ever seen. The Flash BByong series was so sick! Make another one of these instead plz TB! The teams knew about the different types of maps well before signing up as league participants. Having strange maps is a huge part of the very concept of this Shoutcraft iteration. But honestly its just not a good concept. Making drastic new maps creates a learning barrier, and that's only a good thing if it leads to significantly better gameplay. But too a large extent, many of these changes are merely changes for the sake of changes, and players just doesn't wanna bother learning that. Most of the games have been really lame as a result. I highly doubt that the maps or the learning barrier are that absurd. Looking at the more eccentric maps, the only difference on Engines of War are the cannons, which tends to whittle down gameplay to two bases, but generally plays out normally if both players are alert (and don't lose three overlords). Crazy Clash allows you to open standard, as the gimmicks don't really have a major impact on the early game (mid game, possibilities open up). 2v2s are always going to be a real toss-up, no matter how many gimmicks you add in. LotV has its hiccups, but it's LotV, there's plenty of interest in that. The only real game-changer is Peninsula, where the mining rates really differs from most other maps, and that plays a big role in build orders and other expectations. The other maps can be viewed as fairly close to standard maps, something that might be expected of future ladders, for instance.
Still, what is the point of these maps? Totalbiscuit definitely seems interested in wanting to see new stuff in Starcraft, but if neither the viewing quality is improved nor the players like to practice and play them, shouldn't the concept be reevaluated?
My proposal was to use the clan wars as a way to experiment with changes that the community wants to see but Blizzard for (unknown reasons) are hesistant to test/implement.
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United States97274 Posts
Crap I had to leave for a bit and missed the first 2 games. Who won between Hydra and Dayshi and the 2v2?
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On June 18 2015 04:18 Shellshock wrote:
Crap I had to leave for a bit and missed the first 2 games. Who won between Hydra and Dayshi and the 2v2?
2v2 was won by Baguette which means Hydra won his 1v1.
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Neat trick with the turret wall there by Kelazhur. Obviously not enough for how far behind he was but still
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On June 18 2015 03:58 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 03:19 Spect8rCraft wrote:On June 18 2015 00:03 Hider wrote:On June 17 2015 23:54 Rehio wrote:On June 17 2015 23:17 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
I dont watch because I dislike the maps...
Can it be the same for the teams that dont want to partake?
Is it a TB thing?
also the line ups are generally weak ( from what I have watched).
the sandisk tourney he made last year was so epic. Its THE best online event I have ever seen. The Flash BByong series was so sick! Make another one of these instead plz TB! The teams knew about the different types of maps well before signing up as league participants. Having strange maps is a huge part of the very concept of this Shoutcraft iteration. But honestly its just not a good concept. Making drastic new maps creates a learning barrier, and that's only a good thing if it leads to significantly better gameplay. But too a large extent, many of these changes are merely changes for the sake of changes, and players just doesn't wanna bother learning that. Most of the games have been really lame as a result. I highly doubt that the maps or the learning barrier are that absurd. Looking at the more eccentric maps, the only difference on Engines of War are the cannons, which tends to whittle down gameplay to two bases, but generally plays out normally if both players are alert (and don't lose three overlords). Crazy Clash allows you to open standard, as the gimmicks don't really have a major impact on the early game (mid game, possibilities open up). 2v2s are always going to be a real toss-up, no matter how many gimmicks you add in. LotV has its hiccups, but it's LotV, there's plenty of interest in that. The only real game-changer is Peninsula, where the mining rates really differs from most other maps, and that plays a big role in build orders and other expectations. The other maps can be viewed as fairly close to standard maps, something that might be expected of future ladders, for instance. Still, what is the point of these maps? Totalbiscuit definitely seems interested in wanting to see new stuff in Starcraft, but if neither the viewing quality is improved nor the players like to practice and play them, shouldn't the concept be reevaluated? My proposal was to use the clan wars as a way to experiment with changes that the community wants to see but Blizzard for (unknown reasons) are hesistant to test/implement.
the problem Hider is that this is purely your opinion and the teams have not expressed any desire to play on standard maps in this tournament, nor have the viewers expressed desire to see standard maps.
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United States97274 Posts
On June 18 2015 04:21 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 04:18 Shellshock wrote:
Crap I had to leave for a bit and missed the first 2 games. Who won between Hydra and Dayshi and the 2v2? 2v2 was won by Baguette which means Hydra won his 1v1.
Thanks!
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Wow that's actually really sad that Teamliquid and Acer haven't even participated yet. A bit shameful really
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On June 18 2015 04:24 ClanWars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 03:58 Hider wrote:On June 18 2015 03:19 Spect8rCraft wrote:On June 18 2015 00:03 Hider wrote:On June 17 2015 23:54 Rehio wrote:On June 17 2015 23:17 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
I dont watch because I dislike the maps...
Can it be the same for the teams that dont want to partake?
Is it a TB thing?
also the line ups are generally weak ( from what I have watched).
the sandisk tourney he made last year was so epic. Its THE best online event I have ever seen. The Flash BByong series was so sick! Make another one of these instead plz TB! The teams knew about the different types of maps well before signing up as league participants. Having strange maps is a huge part of the very concept of this Shoutcraft iteration. But honestly its just not a good concept. Making drastic new maps creates a learning barrier, and that's only a good thing if it leads to significantly better gameplay. But too a large extent, many of these changes are merely changes for the sake of changes, and players just doesn't wanna bother learning that. Most of the games have been really lame as a result. I highly doubt that the maps or the learning barrier are that absurd. Looking at the more eccentric maps, the only difference on Engines of War are the cannons, which tends to whittle down gameplay to two bases, but generally plays out normally if both players are alert (and don't lose three overlords). Crazy Clash allows you to open standard, as the gimmicks don't really have a major impact on the early game (mid game, possibilities open up). 2v2s are always going to be a real toss-up, no matter how many gimmicks you add in. LotV has its hiccups, but it's LotV, there's plenty of interest in that. The only real game-changer is Peninsula, where the mining rates really differs from most other maps, and that plays a big role in build orders and other expectations. The other maps can be viewed as fairly close to standard maps, something that might be expected of future ladders, for instance. Still, what is the point of these maps? Totalbiscuit definitely seems interested in wanting to see new stuff in Starcraft, but if neither the viewing quality is improved nor the players like to practice and play them, shouldn't the concept be reevaluated? My proposal was to use the clan wars as a way to experiment with changes that the community wants to see but Blizzard for (unknown reasons) are hesistant to test/implement. the problem Hider is that this is purely your opinion and the teams have not expressed any desire to play on standard maps in this tournament, nor have the viewers expressed desire to see standard maps.
Haven't you previosuly had problems with not enough players not being prepared for the maps? And now you don't have enough teams signing up. If all of the players loved practicing on these maps, wouldn't you see more activity, and wouldn't lots of casuals play on them as well? Wouldn't more people talk about it?
I get the feeling that the only reason anyone would practice on these maps is to improve their chances of earning money in the clan war. Do you have examples of the contrary being the case: E.g. multiple players playing on these maps out of pure passion?
nor have the viewers expressed desire to see standard maps.
Standard maps? I wrote that the maps should contain changes that intend to fix specific flaws in Starcraft.
Are the viewernumbers - giving the TB brand value/twitter following - impressive? From my perspective, it would make sense that you could increase viewer numbers if it was branded as having popular changes that the community want to see. I mean, this a story that can be sold to both casuals and hardcore fans right?
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God marine/tank/medivac vs LBM is so good to watch.
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On June 18 2015 04:47 royalroadweed wrote:
I love marine tank.
All it needs to be viable is a giant friggin cannon in the middle of the map.
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I can't believe TB put in gowser and left out nerchio when talking about top foreign wol zergs.
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On June 18 2015 05:00 royalroadweed wrote:
I can't believe TB put in gowser and left out nerchio when talking about top foreign wol zergs.
Well at least Goswser still believes in a thing called roach.
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GG Baguette. ROOT just having no luck in these Clan Wars.
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GG. That was a good show !
I rejoin the opinion that with a standard map pool (that could be different from the ladder, just pick the best maps) Shoutcraft clan war would look like a proleague for foreigners, and THAT would be crazy !
That could happen only if the teams have actually real interest in it, of course.
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On June 18 2015 04:37 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 04:24 ClanWars wrote:On June 18 2015 03:58 Hider wrote:On June 18 2015 03:19 Spect8rCraft wrote:On June 18 2015 00:03 Hider wrote:On June 17 2015 23:54 Rehio wrote:On June 17 2015 23:17 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
I dont watch because I dislike the maps...
Can it be the same for the teams that dont want to partake?
Is it a TB thing?
also the line ups are generally weak ( from what I have watched).
the sandisk tourney he made last year was so epic. Its THE best online event I have ever seen. The Flash BByong series was so sick! Make another one of these instead plz TB! The teams knew about the different types of maps well before signing up as league participants. Having strange maps is a huge part of the very concept of this Shoutcraft iteration. But honestly its just not a good concept. Making drastic new maps creates a learning barrier, and that's only a good thing if it leads to significantly better gameplay. But too a large extent, many of these changes are merely changes for the sake of changes, and players just doesn't wanna bother learning that. Most of the games have been really lame as a result. I highly doubt that the maps or the learning barrier are that absurd. Looking at the more eccentric maps, the only difference on Engines of War are the cannons, which tends to whittle down gameplay to two bases, but generally plays out normally if both players are alert (and don't lose three overlords). Crazy Clash allows you to open standard, as the gimmicks don't really have a major impact on the early game (mid game, possibilities open up). 2v2s are always going to be a real toss-up, no matter how many gimmicks you add in. LotV has its hiccups, but it's LotV, there's plenty of interest in that. The only real game-changer is Peninsula, where the mining rates really differs from most other maps, and that plays a big role in build orders and other expectations. The other maps can be viewed as fairly close to standard maps, something that might be expected of future ladders, for instance. Still, what is the point of these maps? Totalbiscuit definitely seems interested in wanting to see new stuff in Starcraft, but if neither the viewing quality is improved nor the players like to practice and play them, shouldn't the concept be reevaluated? My proposal was to use the clan wars as a way to experiment with changes that the community wants to see but Blizzard for (unknown reasons) are hesistant to test/implement. the problem Hider is that this is purely your opinion and the teams have not expressed any desire to play on standard maps in this tournament, nor have the viewers expressed desire to see standard maps. Haven't you previosuly had problems with not enough players not being prepared for the maps? And now you don't have enough teams signing up. If all of the players loved practicing on these maps, wouldn't you see more activity, and wouldn't lots of casuals play on them as well? Wouldn't more people talk about it? I get the feeling that the only reason anyone would practice on these maps is to improve their chances of earning money in the clan war. Do you have examples of the contrary being the case: E.g. multiple players playing on these maps out of pure passion? Standard maps? That clearly wasn't what I wrote. I wrote that the maps should contain changes that intend to fix specific flaws in Starcraft. Are the viewernumbers - giving the TB brand value/twitter following - impressive? From my perspective, it would make sense that you could increase viewer numbers if it was branded as having popular changes that the community want to see. I mean, this a story that can be sold to both casuals and hardcore fans right?
Not really sure what you're getting at at this point. Are you asking for TB to use clan wars to test out balance changes? Are you asking him to include maps that have design changes? And if so, what exactly are you proposing? Grandstanding aspirations are great, but concrete maps with clear designs are better. After all, if you're asking to test out balance changes, wouldn't that create the same disincentivization that would be associated with practicing a different map? Perhaps even more so considering that they're more liable to tear up foundations?
And I don't understand what you mean by playing for passion. Why would progamers play this for passion when most of these maps are played almost exclusively in this tournament? That seems like asking someone to go back to play Daybreak a hundred times because it was a great map. I mean, yes, players will practice when incentivized with money; isn't that the entire point of the prize pool?
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After all, if you're asking to test out balance changes, wouldn't that create the same disincentivization that would be associated with practicing a different map?
(design changes not balance).
Sure that has a learning curve too (perhaps higher), but it has clear advantages: To inspire Blizzard! Or to satisfy the need of the communtiy to see what the game could like look if all of the stuff we are theoretizing about was implemented.
I honestly have a difficult time seeing the purpose of "crazy" map mechanics. If it is something that could generate a lot more viewers than design changes, sure, okay that would make sense, but I am not convinced that's actually the case.
And I think Totalbiscuit - from having listened to his opinions over the years - would be interested in testing the design changes. I guess that was probably the reason Starbow was implemented in the first place. But obviously Starbow was a misfit as it wasn't intended to inspire Blizzard or test improvements to Starcraft 2.
Why would progamers play this for passion when most of these maps are played almost exclusively in this tournament?
Passion in this context = You play it because its fun even if it doesn't grant you any "career" advantages. So if the maps were made for the players, then you would still see some players play this when not practicising for the tournament. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
So what is the advantage of having a clan war with weird map mechanics over a clan war that tests design changes.
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On June 18 2015 04:24 ClanWars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 03:58 Hider wrote:On June 18 2015 03:19 Spect8rCraft wrote:On June 18 2015 00:03 Hider wrote:On June 17 2015 23:54 Rehio wrote:On June 17 2015 23:17 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
I dont watch because I dislike the maps...
Can it be the same for the teams that dont want to partake?
Is it a TB thing?
also the line ups are generally weak ( from what I have watched).
the sandisk tourney he made last year was so epic. Its THE best online event I have ever seen. The Flash BByong series was so sick! Make another one of these instead plz TB! The teams knew about the different types of maps well before signing up as league participants. Having strange maps is a huge part of the very concept of this Shoutcraft iteration. But honestly its just not a good concept. Making drastic new maps creates a learning barrier, and that's only a good thing if it leads to significantly better gameplay. But too a large extent, many of these changes are merely changes for the sake of changes, and players just doesn't wanna bother learning that. Most of the games have been really lame as a result. I highly doubt that the maps or the learning barrier are that absurd. Looking at the more eccentric maps, the only difference on Engines of War are the cannons, which tends to whittle down gameplay to two bases, but generally plays out normally if both players are alert (and don't lose three overlords). Crazy Clash allows you to open standard, as the gimmicks don't really have a major impact on the early game (mid game, possibilities open up). 2v2s are always going to be a real toss-up, no matter how many gimmicks you add in. LotV has its hiccups, but it's LotV, there's plenty of interest in that. The only real game-changer is Peninsula, where the mining rates really differs from most other maps, and that plays a big role in build orders and other expectations. The other maps can be viewed as fairly close to standard maps, something that might be expected of future ladders, for instance. Still, what is the point of these maps? Totalbiscuit definitely seems interested in wanting to see new stuff in Starcraft, but if neither the viewing quality is improved nor the players like to practice and play them, shouldn't the concept be reevaluated? My proposal was to use the clan wars as a way to experiment with changes that the community wants to see but Blizzard for (unknown reasons) are hesistant to test/implement. the problem Hider is that this is purely your opinion and the teams have not expressed any desire to play on standard maps in this tournament, nor have the viewers expressed desire to see standard maps.
Would you be open to having secondary teams? I would love to make Team Canada and compete vs other teams a bit like what we had last summer with nationwars. If not, maybe one day, team baguette will recruit me in their bakery.
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EPT
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