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On November 09 2014 21:28 chatuka wrote:
Mma played the best this entire tournament but two factors.
1. Mma hasn't faced a zerg yet and life already battle tested a top terran
2. Mma wasn't ready to face an all inner like life. Kind of a cheap victory IMO by life
Actually this doesn't change my opinion of life at all while I continue to gain respect for mma except for a botched finals
You realize that MMA all-inned every game in the finals, right?
While Life all-inned... twice.
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On November 10 2014 00:18 Godwrath wrote:
"My favorite player lost, so i will make up a bunch of stuff to make it look like:
A) He was the better player anyways.
B) Tournament's at fault because it wasn't handled the right way.
C) His opponent was a cheeky cheeser.
D) Jetlag
E) JYP touched him.
F) ... others
Just pick one, and let's move on.
Haha, perfect.
On November 09 2014 21:28 chatuka wrote:
Mma played the best this entire tournament but two factors.
1. Mma hasn't faced a zerg yet and life already battle tested a top terran
2. Mma wasn't ready to face an all inner like life. Kind of a cheap victory IMO by life
Actually this doesn't change my opinion of life at all while I continue to gain respect for mma except for a botched finals
Hooooly hell. Not gonna even bother arguing.
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On November 10 2014 00:10 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 23:43 chatuka wrote:On November 09 2014 23:40 Godwrath wrote:On November 09 2014 23:36 chatuka wrote:On November 09 2014 22:52 Doublemint wrote:On November 09 2014 22:07 chatuka wrote:On November 09 2014 21:59 Willzzz wrote:
Having the most WCS points doesn't make Bomber the hardest opponent.
Zest and Taeja have better records than Bomber and Classic.
Both MMA and Life clearly deserved their spots in the final, but the outcome was clear. Bomber was the most feared player here. Their is a reason he is number and to say that he isn't a top 3 player at this moment is foolish to say. My point was that mma aced a tough draw as did life. Yet mma did Mich better . there was no doubt that mma proved he was better than bomber and classic. Life did not do that vs zest and taeja. Zest or taeja were one game away from defeating life. Therefore life was not demonstrating he was the better player due to the fact he played 3-2 twice already. And mma never did once. Some stellar reasoning right there. Beating the better players and winning in the finals 1:4 counts for nothing. Our Blizzcon Champion is MMA! Kind of perpendicular to my argument. It could be said that bomber is better than both zest and taeja. However I think we can agree that these three players plus classic are excellent players. Mma did show without a doubt he was superior in skill to his previous three opponents than life who was one game away from defeat by zest in the round of 16 or by taeja. It is logical to conclude that mma was playing better than life and was even favorite to win. Are you trying to troll ? If you disagree that's fine. In no way am I forcing you to believe my perspective. Mma never allowed a series to go 3-2 leading up to the finals did he. And life was one game away from ouster in two series. Of course life had a tough schedule. But so did mma. In no way am I denigrating or degrading the accomplishment of life. However there angles to this tourney which might be worth to point out It is not about the disagreement, but that you are taking the time to post stuff which is clearly arbitral, like if it was logical. How hard they dominate their opponents on their way to the finals can't be correlated with who is more likely to win the finals, because opponents are not robots, they don't have exactly the same skill, they have different playstyles that fit them more or less, neither they play the same match ups. Until the finals, we didn't really know how MMA would fare on a TvZ for example. It is only logical to not assume stuff just to suit our opinions and interpret the results between both players solely when we are trying to compare how they fare between each other.
Well then watching sc2 wouldnt be interesting if there was no disagreement or differences in thought. I am trying to be fair here but I see that perhaps I trying to defend mma a bit too much when the result spoke for themselves. Its true that styles make fights but we try to compare how good someone is by their strength of opponents. It happens in all sports. Comparing strength of schedules or opponents. So what I said was an extension of this commonly used practice in sports to evaluate individuals or teams.
I did state life won this fairly. And gave full congrats to him. It was surprising to me see lose mma lose this badly after beating soundly good players. And so went possible theories maybe reasoning.
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On November 09 2014 22:42 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 22:37 p14c wrote:
The game meta is too unstable to crown anyone as "The best player of 2014". Isn't Life in Code A?... Life is in Code B.
Isn't everyone in Code B now? I thought they were resetting everything for 2015 and everyone has to requalify, or did I misunderstand that?
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On November 10 2014 00:19 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 21:28 chatuka wrote:
Mma played the best this entire tournament but two factors.
1. Mma hasn't faced a zerg yet and life already battle tested a top terran
2. Mma wasn't ready to face an all inner like life. Kind of a cheap victory IMO by life
Actually this doesn't change my opinion of life at all while I continue to gain respect for mma except for a botched finals You realize that MMA all-inned every game in the finals, right? While Life all-inned... twice.
Four bannelng busts are considered all ins according to the live report? But I will watch the replay after work.
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On November 10 2014 00:18 Godwrath wrote:
"My favorite player lost, so i will make up a bunch of stuff to make it look like:
A) He was the better player anyways.
B) Tournament's at fault because it wasn't handled the right way.
C) His opponent was a cheeky cheeser.
D) Jetlag
E) JYP touched him.
F) ... others
Just pick one, and let's move on.
Maybe I did that perhaps. I was trying to use reason which I thought were reasonable truths to explain the surprise.
And if you look at the numbers and the concept of timing perhaps there is a small case to be made.
I did reiterate that life won this fair and square. So there is no controversy is that is what you are insinuating I am speaking of.
Yes I was not impressed with four baneling all ins. It makes me more disappointed in mma than life.
The grand finals should have been played on Sunday. There is a case to be made there.
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On November 10 2014 00:29 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 00:18 Godwrath wrote:
"My favorite player lost, so i will make up a bunch of stuff to make it look like:
A) He was the better player anyways.
B) Tournament's at fault because it wasn't handled the right way.
C) His opponent was a cheeky cheeser.
D) Jetlag
E) JYP touched him.
F) ... others
Just pick one, and let's move on. Maybe I did that perhaps. I was trying to use reason which I thought were reasonable truths to explain the surprise. And if you look at the numbers and the concept of timing perhaps there is a small case to be made. I did reiterate that life won this fair and square. So there is no controversy is that is what you are insinuating I am speaking of. Yes I was not impressed with four baneling all ins. It makes me more disappointed in mma than life. The grand finals should have been played on Sunday. There is a case to be made there.
That is simply not true.
Stop with the excuses.
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Everyone who implies in any way that Life didn't deserve this win or was not the best player on that day is just wrong. He played an amazing tournament and fully deserves the victory. I'm still a bit bitter that TaeJa couldn't pull through, but that has more to do with the fact that this was probably his last WCS event before his retirement. Can't he just announce that he doesn't retire... please?
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On November 10 2014 00:24 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 00:19 Swisslink wrote:On November 09 2014 21:28 chatuka wrote:
Mma played the best this entire tournament but two factors.
1. Mma hasn't faced a zerg yet and life already battle tested a top terran
2. Mma wasn't ready to face an all inner like life. Kind of a cheap victory IMO by life
Actually this doesn't change my opinion of life at all while I continue to gain respect for mma except for a botched finals You realize that MMA all-inned every game in the finals, right? While Life all-inned... twice. Four bannelng busts are considered all ins according to the live report? But I will watch the replay after work.
I'll put into the spoilers what happened in case someone doesn't know yet xD
+ Show Spoiler +Game 1:
MMA: 2-Base all-in (Hellbat+Marines)
Life: Standard
Game 2:
MMA: 2-Base all-in (Siege Tank + Marines)
Life: Catches MMA off guard with his Zerglings -> Baneling Bust to end it
Game 3:
MMA: 2-Base all in (Hellbat+Marines)
Life: Standard
Game 4:
MMA: 2-Base all-in (Siege Tank + Marines)
Life: Standard, deflects the all-in and wins
Game 5:
MMA: Standard
Life: 3 Base Baneling Bust
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On November 09 2014 22:07 chatuka wrote:
Life did not demonstrate he was better by pulling 4 all inner baneling busts.
Well, since everyone else has taken the bait, why not me also...
This statement is a ridiculous exaggeration, strictly not true.
Grand Finals:
Game 1: MMA goes for 8-9 minute Hellbat/Medivac push, which Life holds while losing almost no workers. MMA delayed infantry upgrades to do this push, Life has good 3 base economy immediately afterwards and macros his way to a convincing win off multiple bases.
Game 2: Baneling bust off 3 bases.
Game 3: Life goes for macro build, 4 bases etc. and loses to a strong 2 base push from MMA including drop abuse of the skinny ledge (blocked by marauder) on Foxtrot Labs.
Game 4: Life again goes for macro build, 4 bases and scouts and holds against MMA's strong two base push. I think MMA was a tiny bit too passive and late with his push, if he even hit 30 seconds earlier with what he had at the time (much fewer Zerg units, no baneling speed or 1/1 complete for Life) he might have won easily.
Game 5: Life goes pool first (insurance against 2rax), but still gets 3d base out fairly fast. Scouts a quick 3d CC from MMA and baneling busts.
So out of 4 wins for Life, two of them were "relatively high economy" baneling busts, and two of them were macro games where he held the other player's two base aggression, and the game he lost was also one where he was going for a macro game and lost to a hard, early to midgame push.
Personally I thought this was about the right ratio of cheese to macro given my views on the current state of balance in ZvT, i.e. widow mines and hellbats. I was pretty certain based on balance issues that one of the RO8 Terrans would win, but I felt that Life would give himself the best chance of winning by winning at least one or possibly two games per series with a roach timing or baneling bust and that it was the smart way to play to give himself the best chance of advancing to the title, and I'm glad he obviously felt the same way.
In the latest patch, what Zerg has demonstrated the ability to win games with any consistency or take a title once they are playing a series against one of the top 5 or so Terrans (Taeja, Polt, Bomber, Innovation etc.)? My feeling is in the current situation, to just try and play standard macro versus the top bio/mine Terrans for an entire series means that even the best Zerg players will lose a best of 7 winning one or two games versus 4 for the opponent.
Far better, in my view, to take a chance with aggression in one or two games in a series to improve your odds, and it worked. Even better if you've scouted something (quick 3d CC) that shows an early bust is likely to succeed. I don't think most fans of the top Terrans are too critical of them when they take an easy win with 2rax in a critical game in a series (first game or deciding game), that seems to usually be a "genius move" or "balls of steel" etc. but somehow it's different if a Zerg does it.
Of course in the current patch and metagame most of the top Terrans would play standard in virtually every game, the odds favor them winning most games that way right now. It's the Zergs that are forced to take longer chances if they want to have the best chance to win a series.
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On November 10 2014 00:33 Keeemy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 00:29 chatuka wrote:On November 10 2014 00:18 Godwrath wrote:
"My favorite player lost, so i will make up a bunch of stuff to make it look like:
A) He was the better player anyways.
B) Tournament's at fault because it wasn't handled the right way.
C) His opponent was a cheeky cheeser.
D) Jetlag
E) JYP touched him.
F) ... others
Just pick one, and let's move on. Maybe I did that perhaps. I was trying to use reason which I thought were reasonable truths to explain the surprise. And if you look at the numbers and the concept of timing perhaps there is a small case to be made. I did reiterate that life won this fair and square. So there is no controversy is that is what you are insinuating I am speaking of. Yes I was not impressed with four baneling all ins. It makes me more disappointed in mma than life. The grand finals should have been played on Sunday. There is a case to be made there. That is simply not true.
This is what I've read on the live report.
So let me watch the replays since the live report seems to have been misinterpreted by myself. #perplexed.
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Wow if the four baneling busts weren't true big apologies to everyone. Gonna watch the replays instead of reading the live report
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On November 10 2014 00:37 chatuka wrote:
This is what I've read on the live report.
So let me watch the replays since the live report seems to have been misinterpreted by myself. #perplexed.
Whoa, so you are judging the performance of MMA and Life without even having watched the match?
http://www.twitch.tv/wcs/b/586616971
Grand Finals starts at 8:45
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On November 10 2014 00:44 LordYama wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 00:37 chatuka wrote:
This is what I've read on the live report.
So let me watch the replays since the live report seems to have been misinterpreted by myself. #perplexed.
Whoa, so you are judging the performance of MMA and Life without even having watched the match? http://www.twitch.tv/wcs/b/586616971Grand Finals starts at 8:45
Just reading the live reports. I work so that's my excuse.
Sorry about that if i said something untrue.
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On November 10 2014 00:44 LordYama wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 00:37 chatuka wrote:
This is what I've read on the live report.
So let me watch the replays since the live report seems to have been misinterpreted by myself. #perplexed.
Whoa, so you are judging the performance of MMA and Life without even having watched the match? http://www.twitch.tv/wcs/b/586616971Grand Finals starts at 8:45
Yes. My excuse is work related though. Sorry if I said this untruth. Foolish me. My other points still stand in my own belief though it is very debatable at this point.
And congrats of course to life. Never questioned his integrity life just his playstyle which i got wrong.
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Was there a FP stream like there was for last year's event? They did a little first person stuff early on but I don't remember any further into the tournament.
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On November 10 2014 00:53 sparklyresidue wrote:
Was there a FP stream like there was for last year's event? They did a little first person stuff early on but I don't remember any further into the tournament.
Sadly no.
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I didn't like how the brief "First Person View" shots had that greenish yellow washed out color. Were they literally filming the player's screen instead of using observer functions?
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Are people seriously arguing about Life not deserving his title? Lmao people, Life won, and there is no current imbalance in favor of Z atm, so it means Life was the best player yesterday. That's it. End of the story.
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Life beat down Zest 3-2, San 3-0, TaeJa 3-2, and MMA 4-1.
If you look at it, that's one of the toughest brackets we've seen in a while.
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EPT
