EPT[The Foreign Hope] Day 3 - Page 11
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Yonnua
United Kingdom2331 Posts
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swag_bro
Japan782 Posts
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The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On October 16 2014 14:43 swag_bro wrote: So was this a premier tournament or...? You wish  It was a minor tournament | ||
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Superbanana
2369 Posts
#1 - To be a foreign hope you must beat some famous koreans, kespa or not. #2 - To be a foreign hope you must beat Scarlett, or show repeatedly that you are the best player at any given time. #3 - Foreign hopes retire or are overshadowed by Scarlett eventually, never fulfilling our hopes. You know what that means *runs away | ||
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The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On October 16 2014 15:25 Superbanana wrote: Foreign hopes rules: #1 - To be a foreign hope you must beat some famous koreans, kespa or not. #2 - To be a foreign hope you must beat Scarlett, or show repeatedly that you are the best player at any given time. #3 - Foreign hopes retire or are overshadowed by Scarlett eventually, never fulfilling our hopes. You know what that means *runs away Scarlett is preventing anyone from being a foreign hope? Darn | ||
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TelecoM
United States10695 Posts
but the real foreign hope is Draco. Maybe one day he will grace us with his presence again in LotV. | ||
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Xoronius
Germany6362 Posts
On October 16 2014 14:43 swag_bro wrote: So was this a premier tournament or...? Premier tournaments have certain requirements: Being offline(with very few exceptions), koreans (with a few exceptions in the early days) and a prize-pool much bigger than this. It had a good LU for an online tournament, but it was no premier. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26270 Posts
Bunny is damn impressive too of course. | ||
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HEADD
Czech Republic611 Posts
On October 16 2014 20:35 Wombat_NI wrote: It's not just her style being more figured out , Scarlett seems to have 100% lost confidence in her ZvT and she's throwing out all sorts of builds and hoping one sticks. Bunny is damn impressive too of course. Well after i re-watched vods vs bunny he went 2base ALL-in on two maps. On overgrowth and on king sejong. Bunny just copy heart style. On other 2 maps he made no mistake at all so he still win because TvZ. When they played in group stage he made big mistakes so scarlett was abble win.But it was pretty close. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On October 16 2014 20:35 Wombat_NI wrote: It's not just her style being more figured out , Scarlett seems to have 100% lost confidence in her ZvT and she's throwing out all sorts of builds and hoping one sticks. Bunny is damn impressive too of course. Very true. I'm not exactly sure why she's doing it though. While a lot of zergs are struggling in ZvT lately, no one else seems even half as lost as Scarlett. I really don't know if she needs to straight up copy someone else's style or if just a long time by herself figuring shit out but this trend is worrying to say the least. When multiple players have you this figured out... Scarlett may just go the way of Huk when his allins stopped working. | ||
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HEADD
Czech Republic611 Posts
On October 16 2014 22:05 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Very true. I'm not exactly sure why she's doing it though. While a lot of zergs are struggling in ZvT lately, no one else seems even half as lost as Scarlett. I really don't know if she needs to straight up copy someone else's style or if just a long time by herself figuring shit out but this trend is worrying to say the least. When multiple players have you this figured out... Scarlett may just go the way of Huk when his allins stopped working. When bunny go 2base all-in with no scouting from zerg you cant defend that. And on other 2 maps he made no mistake and if terran made no mistake its pretty much win in current TvZ. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On October 16 2014 22:20 HEADD wrote: When bunny go 2base all-in with no scouting from zerg you cant defend that. And on other 2 maps he made no mistake and if terran made no mistake its pretty much win in current TvZ. Obviously the lack of scouting and blind macro is a huge issue, but if that were it Scarlett would fix that pretty quick. She's not dumb, and that kind of mistake should be sorted out no problem. But it seems to be more than that. I'm both very tired and not a pro though so I'm not going to try to comment anymore on what someone who does this for a living should do to fix this problem | ||
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HEADD
Czech Republic611 Posts
Real question is if its even possible scout that for zerg.Because nathanias says its not possible when there are marines watching for that overlord. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On October 16 2014 22:30 HEADD wrote: its not only scarlett heart rekt hyun with same playstyle.He also didnt scout that 2base all-ins in game 1 and 3. Real question is if its even possible scout that for zerg.Because nathanias says its not possible when there are marines watching for that overlord. early marines are a tell though and zerg can just go bane nest or roach warren before upgrades for safety and still play out a normal game with drone production if there's no allin. i find it quite easy to scout terrans because their buildings are almost always together for addon switching and if they aren't together and/or marines are pushing overlords then it's a pretty big sign something weird is going on. macro terran style with perfect engagements at the edge of creep is a LOT harder to deal with than 2base attacks. which ironically is how heart ACTUALLY won. | ||
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HEADD
Czech Republic611 Posts
But first push start at 12min with so little army.I must just laugh at that. That games are only few months old, but TvZ is just different match up.Splits in todays format like bronze league complete crap. Bunny start push in: 11min with 80army suply on king sejong And in 9min with 16marines with stim + 6helions on overgrowth Zergs have tough time today. I see scarlett playing same good like she played in IEM singapore, but today terrans have like 10x better splits and are far more aggressive.There is no way she can hold those attacks if terrans use them in IEM singapore. Edit:even bomber vs scarlett in same event.Bomber played like complete noob compared to today terrans lol. Only 125 suply in game2 in 12:00 time. Bunny have in all maps far better macro than bomber lol. TvZ changed so much i cant believe it. | ||
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Evil_Sheep
Canada902 Posts
On October 16 2014 20:35 Wombat_NI wrote: It's not just her style being more figured out , Scarlett seems to have 100% lost confidence in her ZvT and she's throwing out all sorts of builds and hoping one sticks. Bunny is damn impressive too of course. I don't think the finals were very reflective of Scarlett's true zvt level. She was probably feeling a bit of a hangover after the deflating loss to Heart when she played Bunny, because the last series with Bunny she played and won was much better. I thought she deserved to win the Foreign Hope after dominating the round-robin as well as leaving her main rivals Bunny and Snute well-beaten, it's too bad she didn't but in the end it was basically bragging rights so it's not the biggest loss. So that's part of it, another part is that all zergs are struggling in the matchup, not just scarlett, and they're having a hard time finding a way into the macro game they want to play and it's upset the applecart, especially at the highest levels because while zergs are still winning zvt's, now they are doing it with high-risk, high-variance strats like roach all-ins, and that's punishing high-level macro players like scarlett most, who are really at their best playing and winning macro games. So it's up to zergs to make the adjustments to try and get back into the macro game they need to play, and I don't expect Scarlett to solve that puzzle on her own. And the final part of the reason for her zvt struggles is that Scarlett herself makes a lot of mistakes in her play, in the past Scarlett could just comfortably sit back, defend, spread creep, drone up, take all the bases and win, now it's not so comfortable and mistakes you could get away with before now get punished. In the end it can be a good thing to lose and to struggle, it forces you to learn, adapt and get better, and I've seen Scarlett doing that, she used to just do the same macro builds every match but now she tries all sorts of weird timings, build orders, and unit compositions. She might be losing right now but I think she's actually a better, more complete player than she was in the past and she's still progressing. So for Scarlett I think it's just a question of getting back to the gym, finding her mistakes and fixing them, and waiting for the wind to blow the other way. Her day will come again. | ||
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HEADD
Czech Republic611 Posts
I dont think so.New maps 100% help but it is enough?New strategy?But what strategy?Banelings are pretty much useless now becouse terrans learn how split marines+widow mine revert and zerg dont have any other unit to trade vs marines. Just look at those videos i post it looks like from another world.No early aggression,Bad macro a bad splits compared to today terran. Todays terrans have far better macro and far better splits making baneling useless and are crazy aggressive early in game. How you stop 16marines with stim + 6helions in 9:00 attack? | ||
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Evil_Sheep
Canada902 Posts
On October 18 2014 00:37 HEADD wrote: We will see if TvZ is resolved by time. I dont think so.New maps 100% help but it is enough?New strategy?But what strategy?Banelings are pretty much useless now becouse terrans learn how split marines+widow mine revert and zerg dont have any other unit to trade vs marines. Just look at those videos i post it looks like from another world.No early aggression,Bad macro a bad splits compared to today terran. Todays terrans have far better macro and far better splits making baneling useless and are crazy aggressive early in game. How you stop 16marines with stim + 6helions in 9:00 attack? -Stim timings have been around since WoL, they have nothing to do with the patch and zergs already know how to hold. Just scout, build units and wall off if you feel you need. Stim timings aren't even very good compared to other terran options IMO, it's mostly about the surprise factor. -Marine splitting has also been around since the dawn of time, terrans I don't think suddenly got 10x better at splitting post-patch. Zergs already are used to dealing with splitting. -Thors didn't even get stronger, they just got an AI change which saves terran 1APM. The main difference is that terran is now doing something they should have already been doing: adding thors to their comp. -And zergs already had months playing with full-strength mines and they could macro before, so there's not a lot new here. It's just a confluence of all these little things, changes in the metagame, as well as the map pool. And frankly I think there's a psychological factor at play too. So it's just a question I think of zergs making small adjustments to their play rather than throwing out the playbook. Zerg are rather the reactive race in the matchup so once the metagame becomes more established and zergs perfect holding the various terran timings, zvt will get better and maybe even swing back in their favour. | ||
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