Snuuuuute fighting ! How are things determined if two players have the same map score? Because looking at the rankings and remaining matches it is pretty likely that we're going to have a tie for second place
On October 10 2014 18:48 OtherWorld wrote: Snuuuuute fighting ! How are things determined if two players have the same map score? Because looking at the rankings and remaining matches it is pretty likely that we're going to have a tie for second place
If same MATCH score - then maybe map score - if Same MAP score, then maybe tie breaker, or whoever beat the other. IDK THOUGH
On October 11 2014 02:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: What? DMC is already out in last place without winning a single set? That is completely surprising and upsetting news.
That reminds me of when I went with my grandmother to the eye doctor. They literally held up letters the size of a medium-sized dog a meter in front of her face, and she still thought an H was an F.
On October 11 2014 02:44 SlammerIV wrote: Actually bly has a realistic shot at getting second place, he is the only player who can still get a 4-1 score.
Yeah, especially because he beat Bunny. If he can topple Snute too, that'd be awesome.
On October 11 2014 02:44 SlammerIV wrote: Actually bly has a realistic shot at getting second place, he is the only player who can still get a 4-1 score.
Yeah, especially because he beat Bunny. If he can topple Snute too, that'd be awesome.
Yeah, because Bunny not getting to the finals would be "awesome".
After the series win score (3-2 ties for second place), does it come down to individual game scores?
If Bunny 2-0s DMC (as expected), then he has an 8-4 score in games. Even a 2-1 win puts Bunny at 8-5, which is the best game score after Scarlett.
Nerchio is done at 7-5. Bly is at 4-6, and can finish at 6-6 at best. Snute can get to 6-5 map score at best. DMC is out, and Scarlett is already in first place.
So if DMC doesn't eat rabbit stew, Bunny takes second... unless the individual games don't matter?
On October 11 2014 04:21 Zzzapper wrote: I love when group stages end this close. Every last match is going to matter here
Not if they break ties with number of individual games won (which is standard in most tourneys). If that's the case, then the Bunny vs. DMC series trumps the other two series, because if Bunny 2-0s DMC, then nothing else matters.
I don't know if they're doing that or some weird tiebreaker series thing though.
On October 11 2014 04:21 Squat wrote: What in the actual fuck are they talking about? Bunny just needs to beat DMC 2-0 and he goes through on map score?
I mean, they are using map score in case of a tie, right?
On October 11 2014 04:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: After the series win score (3-2 ties for second place), does it come down to individual game scores?
If Bunny 2-0s DMC (as expected), then he has an 8-4 score in games.
Nerchio is done at 7-5. Bly is at 4-6, and can finish at 6-6 at best. Snute can get to 6-5 map score at best. DMC is out, and Scarlett is already in first place.
So if DMC doesn't eat rabbit stew, Bunny takes second... unless the individual maps don't matter?
On October 11 2014 04:21 Zzzapper wrote: I love when group stages end this close. Every last match is going to matter here
Not if they break ties with number of individual games won (which is standard in most tourneys). If that's the case, then the Bunny vs. DMC series trumps the other two series, because if Bunny 2-0s DMC, then nothing else matters.
I don't know if they're doing that or some weird tiebreaker series thing though.
I hope Bunny gets 2nd don't really wanna see a ZvsZ final.
I'm muting the stream for a little while... if Madals clarifies how they break second place 3-2 series ties (tiebreaker series? round robin? individual game scores?), please post it in the thread. Thanks
On October 11 2014 04:35 Squat wrote: Maybe it's a surprise format, number 1 and number 6 advance, and it turns out DMC has just been sandbagging the whole time.
If there was actually a tournament where last place won the prize money, do you think we'd ever see anything besides the players worker rushing their own main?
It'd be a pretty sick metagame if you had the tournament on a super small map (like Steppes of War) and one player worker rushed the other players workers and killed them off so that the opponent couldn't kill his own base... and then the remaining workers ran back home and killed his own base to lose.
I guess insta-leaving/ insta-gging the game wouldn't be permitted.
On October 11 2014 04:35 Squat wrote: Maybe it's a surprise format, number 1 and number 6 advance, and it turns out DMC has just been sandbagging the whole time.
If there was actually a tournament where last place won the prize money, do you think we'd ever see anything besides the players worker rushing their own main?
It'd be a pretty sick metagame if you had the tournament on a super small map (like Steppes of War) and one player worker rushed the other players workers and killed them off so that the opponent couldn't kill his own base... and then the remaining workers ran back home and killed his base to lose.
Zerg might be better off 6-pooling to get a spine, I don't know. Must investigate.
I wonder if Madals or Jorosar read the LR thread, as there's a lot of confusion regarding how ties are broken. It's not even posted in Liquipedia or the OP.
After the series win score (3-2 ties for second place), does it come down to individual game scores?
If Bunny 2-0s DMC (as expected), then he has an 8-4 score in games. Even a 2-1 win puts Bunny at 8-5, which is the best game score after Scarlett.
Nerchio is done at 7-5. Snute is at 4-5, and can get to 6-5 map score at best. Bly is at 4-6, and can finish at 6-6 at best. DMC is out, and Scarlett is already in first place.
So if Bunny beats DMC, this Bly vs. Snute game doesn't matter. But obviously Bly and Snute don't know what's going to happen with Bunny vs. DMC, so both of them want to win to possibly challenge a higher spot for more money. Bly and Snute both already have worse game scores than Nerchio though... so it would seem that either Bunny takes second (with a win over DMC) or Nerchio does (if DMC 2-0s Bunny, as Bunny will only have a 6-6 score), or Nerchio and Bunny tie at 7-5 if Bunny loses 1-2 to DMC.
Or is there some other tiebreaker format, which makes all this irrelevant ^^;;
EDIT: They're talking about some strange head-to-head format but they sound a bit confused on what's happening... so I guess ignore the game score breakdown lol. Whatever happens, happens... as long as the players understand, I guess. Apparently Bunny will still almost certainly get second anyway.
The lack of information is a little irritating, that kind of stuff should obviously have been hashed out before the tournament began, and posted in the thread.
Also, Bly's ZvZ looks very blunt, every opponent so far has read his aggressive style like a book.
Edit: Ok, so it doesn't really matter what happens here unless Bunny goes into cardiac arrest or something.
According to Madals, Snute gets second place if Bunny loses to DMC (because Snute beat Nerchio, which breaks their 3-2 series tie, and Bunny won't have a 3-2 score), and Bunny gets second place if Bunny beats DMC (because Bunny beat both Snute and Nerchio). Some head-to-head format thing. So Nerchio definitely can't make it to the grand finals.
Also, Madals just said that the grand finals will be played sometime next week.
Also, DMC is necessarily last place, even if he 2-0s Bunny.
On October 11 2014 05:14 Yhamm wrote: yeah just heard, its h2h before map scores
I'm a little worried that the players weren't aware of the format, because at the beginning of Snute vs. Bly, Madals said that both players insisted that they were playing for fourth place, which isn't actually true (and Madals didn't correct that misunderstanding)... Snute can still get 2nd or 3rd (and could have gotten 5th if he got 2-0ed by Bly).
After Snute beat Bly, things become a lot clearer with more results and Madals's clarification regarding head-to-head score. I just hope all the players understood the rules, because we certainly weren't aware of them.
On October 11 2014 06:05 SlammerIV wrote: Im pretty happy with a scarlett vs bunny finals. After wcs America Scarlett won't have to hold back at all and she probably wont drop a map this time.
On October 11 2014 06:05 SlammerIV wrote: Im pretty happy with a scarlett vs bunny finals. After wcs America Scarlett won't have to hold back at all and she probably wont drop a map this time.
After WCS AM Bunny will have 3 games of Heart beating Scarlett to figure out how to do it.
On October 11 2014 06:05 SlammerIV wrote: Im pretty happy with a scarlett vs bunny finals. After wcs America Scarlett won't have to hold back at all and she probably wont drop a map this time.
After WCS AM Bunny will have 3 games of Heart beating Scarlett to figure out how to do it.
But he won't have any of Scarlett beating Heart. That could be important.
On October 11 2014 06:05 SlammerIV wrote: Im pretty happy with a scarlett vs bunny finals. After wcs America Scarlett won't have to hold back at all and she probably wont drop a map this time.
After WCS AM Bunny will have 3 games of Heart beating Scarlett to figure out how to do it.
But he won't have any of Scarlett beating Heart. That could be important.
True, but he's already got a few of himself losing so this should be easy for Bunny. He's got all the time to figure it out. Are the finals Bo5 or 7?
Scarlett-Bunny? Couldn't ask for a better finals! They already played one close and entertaining series, now Scarlett has the chance to correct a popular myth that she is only the 3rd best foreigner around
On October 11 2014 15:12 Evil_Sheep wrote: Scarlett-Bunny? Couldn't ask for a better finals! They already played one close and entertaining series, now Scarlett has the chance to correct a popular myth that she is only the 3rd best foreigner around
Now she gets the opportunity to prove that she's second behind my Hunny Bunny :p
Interesting style from Scarlett. 2 base muta into roach/hydra and then vipers and broodlords. I wonder if infestors would've worked better than vipers early on though. Bunny didn't really have a lot of tanks, just a ton of bio.
On October 16 2014 02:37 SC2Towelie wrote: Interesting style from Scarlett. 2 base muta into roach/hydra and then vipers and broodlords. I wonder if infestors would've worked better than vipers early on though. Bunny didn't really have a lot of tanks, just a ton of bio.
I was thinking that too. If she had some fungals to lock down the bio in the blinding clouds in the first engagement when she lost her 4th I think that would have changed a lot
On October 16 2014 02:37 SC2Towelie wrote: Interesting style from Scarlett. 2 base muta into roach/hydra and then vipers and broodlords. I wonder if infestors would've worked better than vipers early on though. Bunny didn't really have a lot of tanks, just a ton of bio.
If by interesting you mean "kind of crap", then it was interesting. Bunny also seems to really know that denying the 4th and 5th is the most important thing in dealing with her.
On October 16 2014 02:37 SC2Towelie wrote: Interesting style from Scarlett. 2 base muta into roach/hydra and then vipers and broodlords. I wonder if infestors would've worked better than vipers early on though. Bunny didn't really have a lot of tanks, just a ton of bio.
If by interesting you mean "kind of crap", then it was interesting. Bunny also seems to really know that denying the 4th and 5th is the most important thing in dealing with her.
Because something doesn't work in one game, it becomes "kind of crap?" I promise you Scarlett wouldn't have used that strategy if it wasn't working in her practice games. Bunny just happened to be completely prepared for it and IMMEDIATELY threw down the starports and started viking production and then went for an attack once his first few vikings were out. I think if Scarlett went for infestors early on instead of vipers she would've been in a great spot. Roach/hydra/infestor is really nice against bio when the terran has no tanks. Then she adds on the broodlords as tanks are coming out and pushes. I have a feeling the game would've looked a lot different if she played it out like that, but obviously it's easy for me to say that being able to see everything that's going on in the game.
On October 16 2014 02:44 stuchiu wrote: Uh guys. Scarlett was watching Soulkey stream, saw him do it and decided to try. Then she realized it was the wrong map to use it.
I think Nimbus is probably one of the better maps in the pool for a strategy like that, no?
On October 16 2014 02:37 SC2Towelie wrote: Interesting style from Scarlett. 2 base muta into roach/hydra and then vipers and broodlords. I wonder if infestors would've worked better than vipers early on though. Bunny didn't really have a lot of tanks, just a ton of bio.
If by interesting you mean "kind of crap", then it was interesting. Bunny also seems to really know that denying the 4th and 5th is the most important thing in dealing with her.
Because something doesn't work in one game, it becomes "kind of crap?" I promise you Scarlett wouldn't have used that strategy if it wasn't working in her practice games. Bunny just happened to be completely prepared for it and IMMEDIATELY threw down the starports and started viking production and then went for an attack once his first few vikings were out. I think if Scarlett went for infestors early on instead of vipers she would've been in a great spot. Roach/hydra/infestor is really nice against bio when the terran has no tanks. Then she adds on the broodlords as tanks are coming out and pushes. I have a feeling the game would've looked a lot different if she played it out like that, but obviously it's easy for me to say that being able to see everything that's going on in the game.
Yes, but the fact that she went for vipers early made it not very good. Infestors, or if she could afford it a combination of vipers and infestors would have been better and not rushing to broodlords would have made it pretty decent.
On October 16 2014 02:44 stuchiu wrote: Uh guys. Scarlett was watching Soulkey stream, saw him do it and decided to try. Then she realized it was the wrong map to use it.
I think Nimbus is probably one of the better maps in the pool for a strategy like that, no?
Thats what Scarlett said in chat. Either that or what Rotti analyzed it as.
On October 16 2014 02:51 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Bunny is just too damn strong.
On October 16 2014 02:51 royalroadweed wrote: Isn't this the same build heart killed her with?
Bunny's been learning. Scarlett I guess hasn't
She just used a completely new cutting edge Soulkey build in g1.
She used the build on a poor map for it. Honestly it sounds like she just saw it and decided to use it without refining it. She tried the same with snute's build vs flash. That also went about as well as soulkey's build vs bunny.
On October 16 2014 03:21 stuchiu wrote: It isn't an innovation build though. It's one of the oldest WoL builds like ever. Hell in HotS, the first player to use it was Ryung.
Innovation just so charismatic though that we name it after him
Scarlett blows up 40SCVs with banelings. Two minutes later she loses the game because she doesn't have banelings at home to defend. Who would have thought? I should be a coach
On October 16 2014 03:33 Big J wrote: Scarlett blows up 40SCVs with banelings. Two minutes later she loses the game because she doesn't have banelings at home to defend. Who would have thought? I should be a coach
I am really interested if blizzcon zergs can defeat terran.At least one zerg. I think not. What i see in last few weeks(top level) in TVZ i have no words. Maybe charwoman start balancing game in blizzard?
Foreign hopes rules: #1 - To be a foreign hope you must beat some famous koreans, kespa or not. #2 - To be a foreign hope you must beat Scarlett, or show repeatedly that you are the best player at any given time. #3 - Foreign hopes retire or are overshadowed by Scarlett eventually, never fulfilling our hopes. You know what that means *runs away
On October 16 2014 15:25 Superbanana wrote: Foreign hopes rules: #1 - To be a foreign hope you must beat some famous koreans, kespa or not. #2 - To be a foreign hope you must beat Scarlett, or show repeatedly that you are the best player at any given time. #3 - Foreign hopes retire or are overshadowed by Scarlett eventually, never fulfilling our hopes. You know what that means *runs away
Scarlett is preventing anyone from being a foreign hope? Darn
On October 16 2014 14:43 swag_bro wrote: So was this a premier tournament or...?
Premier tournaments have certain requirements: Being offline(with very few exceptions), koreans (with a few exceptions in the early days) and a prize-pool much bigger than this. It had a good LU for an online tournament, but it was no premier.
It's not just her style being more figured out , Scarlett seems to have 100% lost confidence in her ZvT and she's throwing out all sorts of builds and hoping one sticks.
On October 16 2014 20:35 Wombat_NI wrote: It's not just her style being more figured out , Scarlett seems to have 100% lost confidence in her ZvT and she's throwing out all sorts of builds and hoping one sticks.
Bunny is damn impressive too of course.
Well after i re-watched vods vs bunny he went 2base ALL-in on two maps. On overgrowth and on king sejong. Bunny just copy heart style. On other 2 maps he made no mistake at all so he still win because TvZ.
When they played in group stage he made big mistakes so scarlett was abble win.But it was pretty close.
On October 16 2014 20:35 Wombat_NI wrote: It's not just her style being more figured out , Scarlett seems to have 100% lost confidence in her ZvT and she's throwing out all sorts of builds and hoping one sticks.
Bunny is damn impressive too of course.
Very true. I'm not exactly sure why she's doing it though. While a lot of zergs are struggling in ZvT lately, no one else seems even half as lost as Scarlett. I really don't know if she needs to straight up copy someone else's style or if just a long time by herself figuring shit out but this trend is worrying to say the least. When multiple players have you this figured out... Scarlett may just go the way of Huk when his allins stopped working.
On October 16 2014 20:35 Wombat_NI wrote: It's not just her style being more figured out , Scarlett seems to have 100% lost confidence in her ZvT and she's throwing out all sorts of builds and hoping one sticks.
Bunny is damn impressive too of course.
Very true. I'm not exactly sure why she's doing it though. While a lot of zergs are struggling in ZvT lately, no one else seems even half as lost as Scarlett. I really don't know if she needs to straight up copy someone else's style or if just a long time by herself figuring shit out but this trend is worrying to say the least. When multiple players have you this figured out... Scarlett may just go the way of Huk when his allins stopped working.
When bunny go 2base all-in with no scouting from zerg you cant defend that. And on other 2 maps he made no mistake and if terran made no mistake its pretty much win in current TvZ.
On October 16 2014 20:35 Wombat_NI wrote: It's not just her style being more figured out , Scarlett seems to have 100% lost confidence in her ZvT and she's throwing out all sorts of builds and hoping one sticks.
Bunny is damn impressive too of course.
Very true. I'm not exactly sure why she's doing it though. While a lot of zergs are struggling in ZvT lately, no one else seems even half as lost as Scarlett. I really don't know if she needs to straight up copy someone else's style or if just a long time by herself figuring shit out but this trend is worrying to say the least. When multiple players have you this figured out... Scarlett may just go the way of Huk when his allins stopped working.
When bunny go 2base all-in with no scouting from zerg you cant defend that. And on other 2 maps he made no mistake and if terran made no mistake its pretty much win in current TvZ.
Obviously the lack of scouting and blind macro is a huge issue, but if that were it Scarlett would fix that pretty quick. She's not dumb, and that kind of mistake should be sorted out no problem. But it seems to be more than that. I'm both very tired and not a pro though so I'm not going to try to comment anymore on what someone who does this for a living should do to fix this problem
its not only scarlett heart rekt hyun with same playstyle.He also didnt scout that 2base all-ins in game 1 and 3. Real question is if its even possible scout that for zerg.Because nathanias says its not possible when there are marines watching for that overlord.
On October 16 2014 22:30 HEADD wrote: its not only scarlett heart rekt hyun with same playstyle.He also didnt scout that 2base all-ins in game 1 and 3. Real question is if its even possible scout that for zerg.Because nathanias says its not possible when there are marines watching for that overlord.
early marines are a tell though and zerg can just go bane nest or roach warren before upgrades for safety and still play out a normal game with drone production if there's no allin. i find it quite easy to scout terrans because their buildings are almost always together for addon switching and if they aren't together and/or marines are pushing overlords then it's a pretty big sign something weird is going on. macro terran style with perfect engagements at the edge of creep is a LOT harder to deal with than 2base attacks. which ironically is how heart ACTUALLY won.
I dont know but i just watched IEM singapore scarlett vs dream and they sayng he is extremly agresive and have god like macro. But first push start at 12min with so little army.I must just laugh at that.
That games are only few months old, but TvZ is just different match up.Splits in todays format like bronze league complete crap. Bunny start push in: 11min with 80army suply on king sejong And in 9min with 16marines with stim + 6helions on overgrowth Zergs have tough time today. I see scarlett playing same good like she played in IEM singapore, but today terrans have like 10x better splits and are far more aggressive.There is no way she can hold those attacks if terrans use them in IEM singapore.
Edit:even bomber vs scarlett in same event.Bomber played like complete noob compared to today terrans lol. Only 125 suply in game2 in 12:00 time. Bunny have in all maps far better macro than bomber lol. TvZ changed so much i cant believe it.
On October 16 2014 20:35 Wombat_NI wrote: It's not just her style being more figured out , Scarlett seems to have 100% lost confidence in her ZvT and she's throwing out all sorts of builds and hoping one sticks.
Bunny is damn impressive too of course.
I don't think the finals were very reflective of Scarlett's true zvt level. She was probably feeling a bit of a hangover after the deflating loss to Heart when she played Bunny, because the last series with Bunny she played and won was much better. I thought she deserved to win the Foreign Hope after dominating the round-robin as well as leaving her main rivals Bunny and Snute well-beaten, it's too bad she didn't but in the end it was basically bragging rights so it's not the biggest loss. So that's part of it, another part is that all zergs are struggling in the matchup, not just scarlett, and they're having a hard time finding a way into the macro game they want to play and it's upset the applecart, especially at the highest levels because while zergs are still winning zvt's, now they are doing it with high-risk, high-variance strats like roach all-ins, and that's punishing high-level macro players like scarlett most, who are really at their best playing and winning macro games. So it's up to zergs to make the adjustments to try and get back into the macro game they need to play, and I don't expect Scarlett to solve that puzzle on her own.
And the final part of the reason for her zvt struggles is that Scarlett herself makes a lot of mistakes in her play, in the past Scarlett could just comfortably sit back, defend, spread creep, drone up, take all the bases and win, now it's not so comfortable and mistakes you could get away with before now get punished. In the end it can be a good thing to lose and to struggle, it forces you to learn, adapt and get better, and I've seen Scarlett doing that, she used to just do the same macro builds every match but now she tries all sorts of weird timings, build orders, and unit compositions. She might be losing right now but I think she's actually a better, more complete player than she was in the past and she's still progressing. So for Scarlett I think it's just a question of getting back to the gym, finding her mistakes and fixing them, and waiting for the wind to blow the other way. Her day will come again.
We will see if TvZ is resolved by time. I dont think so.New maps 100% help but it is enough?New strategy?But what strategy?Banelings are pretty much useless now becouse terrans learn how split marines+widow mine revert and zerg dont have any other unit to trade vs marines. Just look at those videos i post it looks like from another world.No early aggression,Bad macro a bad splits compared to today terran. Todays terrans have far better macro and far better splits making baneling useless and are crazy aggressive early in game. How you stop 16marines with stim + 6helions in 9:00 attack?
On October 18 2014 00:37 HEADD wrote: We will see if TvZ is resolved by time. I dont think so.New maps 100% help but it is enough?New strategy?But what strategy?Banelings are pretty much useless now becouse terrans learn how split marines+widow mine revert and zerg dont have any other unit to trade vs marines. Just look at those videos i post it looks like from another world.No early aggression,Bad macro a bad splits compared to today terran. Todays terrans have far better macro and far better splits making baneling useless and are crazy aggressive early in game. How you stop 16marines with stim + 6helions in 9:00 attack?
-Stim timings have been around since WoL, they have nothing to do with the patch and zergs already know how to hold. Just scout, build units and wall off if you feel you need. Stim timings aren't even very good compared to other terran options IMO, it's mostly about the surprise factor. -Marine splitting has also been around since the dawn of time, terrans I don't think suddenly got 10x better at splitting post-patch. Zergs already are used to dealing with splitting. -Thors didn't even get stronger, they just got an AI change which saves terran 1APM. The main difference is that terran is now doing something they should have already been doing: adding thors to their comp. -And zergs already had months playing with full-strength mines and they could macro before, so there's not a lot new here. It's just a confluence of all these little things, changes in the metagame, as well as the map pool. And frankly I think there's a psychological factor at play too.
So it's just a question I think of zergs making small adjustments to their play rather than throwing out the playbook. Zerg are rather the reactive race in the matchup so once the metagame becomes more established and zergs perfect holding the various terran timings, zvt will get better and maybe even swing back in their favour.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CRgcO8m.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/r9ZH0.png)
Madals![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xYABn.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1771.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/2834.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1i2MpYV.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/2013.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/4571.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/4369.jpg)
Scarlett vs 
Bunny![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bv8Kw.png)
DMC![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WdLE8.png)
