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SHOUTcraft Clan Wars - Official thread - Page 83
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Ferisii
Denmark199 Posts
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2vs2 FrozenImpact
Estonia25 Posts
This is why Team games suck in Starcraft 2 and why noone plays them And one newer post from 2 days ago: Idea to fix team maps Basically the map that you fellas used was off the charts gimmicky. Players just didn't know how to "complain" about it since they never played 2v2; and most actually think that team games ARE that gmmicky, with steppes of war like maps and features; Also it painted the team game scene/strategies in a pretty bad light to the "casuals" | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On December 23 2014 23:53 2vs2 FrozenImpact wrote: Hey TotalBisquit. I loved that you put team games into your format, but one problem. Don't put gimmicky maps into the team game map pool. It was everything we, the team game community, have been trying to combat in Starcraft 2 team games for the better of team game scene. Here are some references: This is why Team games suck in Starcraft 2 and why noone plays them And one newer post from 2 days ago: Idea to fix team maps Basically the map that you fellas used was off the charts gimmicky. Players just didn't know how to "complain" about it since they never played 2v2; and most actually think that team games ARE that gmmicky, with steppes of war like maps and features; Also it painted the team game scene/strategies in a pretty bad light to the "casuals" This is a bunch of reactionary bollocks and I'd rather consult the actual players on it before making any changes. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
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HoZBlooddrop
Italy324 Posts
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reximus
United States3 Posts
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MarcusRife
343 Posts
On December 23 2014 22:10 Liquid`Ret wrote: Would it be worth considering turning this into a serious team league like ATC with a regular league season and then palyoffs? and a real map pool? :O What you mean by "serious" and "real" are ambiguous here. But, market realities make this not worth considering. "Serious" leagues already exist and there is probably little room for more. If you are going to brand it as "serious" you need premier talent otherwise viewership won't be there. Assume the premier talent is amenable to the format. If you are going to do a full league and playoffs your schedule has to work around all the other "serious" tournaments. It would be very challenging for a full staff of people that are well funded to pull it off and TB was doing this by himself for free. A "real" map pool consisting of WCS-esque maps is not differentiated in this market. You already have WCS, Dreamhack, ESL, Homestory, Redbull, etc. that use these maps and have premier talent play on them. The point of this tournament is that it is fun, different, flexible, and low cost. It is looking for interesting games. Players know the map and opponent in advance. They are able (if they choose) to prepare a specific strategy for the map. If a month goes by and a map does nothing interesting it can be dropped. We will never find the interesting if we don't experiment. In a few matches you saw "lesser" players taking down "bigger" players because they were better prepared for the map. Sacred path had an awesome meta game going on episode to episode where teams would try new things to adjust for strategies in previous matches. Suppy and Xeno were very successful on that map because they practiced. I know because they streamed their practices and they talked extensively about how to approach it. Looking at Suppy's post on reddit he is excited for the return of Clan Wars. He seems to get it. If enough players accepted this for what it is and embraced it could be something special. BTW I am a mapmaker. | ||
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Hoofit
United Kingdom128 Posts
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2vs2 FrozenImpact
Estonia25 Posts
On December 24 2014 01:05 TotalBiscuit wrote: This is a bunch of reactionary bollocks and I'd rather consult the actual players on it before making any changes. Well, if you had checked out the first link in my post, then you'd know that i'm not talking out of my ass. Also, the 2vs2 map, me and my 2vs2 friends actually helped progamers prepare for them. Proof. If you'd like and have time, I would be happy to discuss with you the situation of team games in Starcraft 2. Best regards!  | ||
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-Kyo-
Japan1926 Posts
On December 24 2014 01:05 TotalBiscuit wrote: This is a bunch of reactionary bollocks and I'd rather consult the actual players on it before making any changes. As a person who directly helped some of the players with their 2v2 builds, along with some of the other very good 2v2 players, we definitely think at one point the 2v2 map that was used was incredibly ZT favored (for example) and only certain builds could be used in order to counter things like Hel/Ling timings and so on. It's not "reactionary bollocks" there are literally just things like split maps and spawn positions that make 2v2 very imbalanced with certain builds or MUs. That's just how it is. You can ask the players, but do keep in mind that they probably rarely ever "practice" 2v2. In any case, I am happy you're being awesome enough to sponsor another set of these matches. You do a lot for these guys. Keep up the great work. | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
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Priidrik
Estonia33 Posts
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xtorn
4060 Posts
So much quality Starcraft in 2015 :D Suppy in 2v2 matches again plz!! | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
I often watch games because of the player. But I watch Shoutcraft because of the tournament itself. The production, the cast, the story lines ... and on top of that, many high-quality games. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On December 26 2014 09:18 Pontius Pirate wrote: I really loved the wonky map pool, but I wasn't thrilled with the 2v2 map that was chosen. I could really go for something that encourages longer games, and I felt like the map that was chosen ended up exaggerating the 2v2 stereotype of zergling-hellion supremacy and banshee committal. Maybe if it was like 1 of 3 different 2v2 maps that got rotated through, but by itself, it wasn't terribly satisfying. I think rotation might work, though my big concern with doing so is that the players have so little time to commit to practicing 2v2, that expanding the pool to 3 would make it even harder to learn. That said, if we put out a pool of 3 and then just run the season with it, it could work. I would like to see a longer 2v2 game, which will most likely only happen with shared bases. I'm committed to both the nonstandard map pool and the 2v2s. Mapmakers deserve continued support and it remains a selling point to players and teams participating in other tournaments, since they dont have to show their builds on official maps. | ||
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
Clan Wars is really awesome for doing that, so thanks TB | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On December 27 2014 23:50 TotalBiscuit wrote: I think rotation might work, though my big concern with doing so is that the players have so little time to commit to practicing 2v2, that expanding the pool to 3 would make it even harder to learn. That said, if we put out a pool of 3 and then just run the season with it, it could work. I would like to see a longer 2v2 game, which will most likely only happen with shared bases. I'm committed to both the nonstandard map pool and the 2v2s. Mapmakers deserve continued support and it remains a selling point to players and teams participating in other tournaments, since they dont have to show their builds on official maps. There were 3 reasons for me, why I enjoyed shoutcraft clanwars so much: 1: The maps. Unike mappool with cool maps you did not find alot elsewhere. 2: 2v2. Nobody plays it anymore, you brought us top tier 2v2. The map was quite bad for it, because the split bases where so far away, that fast 2v1 rushes where they key to win and protoss sucked on it really hard. Maybe make a mapmaking contest for a fresh and better 2v2 map, which suites you and your viewers better. 3: The Teams. While other teamleagues with 2v2s and unique (cool/better) maps played mostly out of clans and very small teams, you had the big ones. | ||
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
Will you keep the same format (fixed map, fixed players, Bo7) or will you do some change in the formula? I'd like to see some wackiness like an all-kill by one player or the ace match being forced into random race. And also will it still be streamed on MLG? Their player is so terrible often I couldn't watch the games and had to wait the youtube upload.  I'll hope for a Canadian team this time, to kick those Aussies. :D EDIT: And continue with strong color mode, loved those orange or pink banelings and archons. :D | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On December 28 2014 19:42 varsovie wrote: I agree with people for the 2v2 map, sure the one you had was good, but kinda gimmicky and always the same. Of course you didn't had a lot of 2v2s during shoutcraft, so it was never boring per say. Will you keep the same format (fixed map, fixed players, Bo7) or will you do some change in the formula? I'd like to see some wackiness like an all-kill by one player or the ace match being forced into random race. And also will it still be streamed on MLG? Their player is so terrible often I couldn't watch the games and had to wait the youtube upload. I'll hope for a Canadian team this time, to kick those Aussies. :D EDIT: And continue with strong color mode, loved those orange or pink banelings and archons. :D I don't like all-kill formats. They don't reward team-play as much as proleagues format does. I dislike the notion that a team can hire a super-star and have them carry the team on their back in all-kills. Thats not teamplay, that's Superstar and Backing Band. All-kill format does not reward roster depth. I like to see the full range of players a team has to offer, I like it when they send out people that usually dont get the spotlight and then that guy puills a great game because he had 2 weeks to prepare for that match. I think proleague format is the superior teamleague format and that it should be the way things are done in future. It'll be streamed on MLG because they provide the prize money. MLGs player has improved a lot over the past 6 months and I have no problems continuing to use their platform. Their financial support is the only reason the event even existed to begin with and they're great to work with. We'll try to make sure our Youtube videos are prompt for those who are having streaming issues. Oh yeah we'll stick wtih strong colour mode. I'll probably stick with the classic Gameheart as well, I don't like the WCS style one, too much wasted space, inefficient way of delivering information to the end user. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
I plan on bringing back Clan Wars in late March. We will roll with the remaining teams we have and will consider inviting new teams/unofficial clan affiliations to the event to pad out the roster. We'll also make a few changes to the format. Starbow/SC2BW is cut - Teams dont take it seriously, the games end up being poor quality. It will be replaced with the LOTV Fan Alpha, since this serves some actual purpose and has generated fun games already in our LOTV Alpha tournament. Different 2v2 maps - We'll include a couple of 2v2 maps this time around, with shared base setup. Some maps will be removed and swapped out - Most of the maps performed well but we had issues with a few of them and they will be cut and replaced with something else. We'll stick with our theme of surprises on the maps and unusual design. | ||
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