On February 08 2014 04:29 BulletCL wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong please,
is GSL October 2011 Ro16 the worst in terms of massive representation from a single race in StarCraft II tournaments in Korea? (10 terrans)
Also, what about BW? I was checking Liquipedia and the worst cases were: - Freechol OSL 2000 (10 zergs) - Daum OSL 2007 (10 terrans) - Arena MSL 2008 (10 terrans)
Am I right or did I miss something?
(I just wanna keep record of this in case of a "10+ Protoss Ro16")
Dunno about BW but regarding GSL october 2011, this is correct afaik. Even worse, there were 6 terrans in RO8 and only T from RO4 (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_October/Code_S#Racial_Distribution) At the very least it's the only GSL where a race is represented by only one player in the RO16 (Killer representing protoss that is). The thing is these GOM TvT GSL seasons lasted for very long, wasn't like a single season but more like 4 or 5. At that time people considered that having more terrans was normal because they were simply better... Like wtf...
Hopefully balance has evolved and is dealt with faster these days so I don't think the longevity of the terran supremacy in SC2 has a chance to be ever beaten by any race imho. Neither do I want this to happen actually.
To be honnest they were a lot of very good teran at the time ! Not all were legit I guess but still : Mvp, Bomber, Ganzi, Supernova, Ryung, Cliiiiide, MMA in RO16 that was a sick line up.
There also is a lot of very good protosses now, no hate what so ever.
Truth is that 10 terran players who were in Code S at some time now play in WCS AM and WCS EU. Moreover all terrans who won GSL now play there + BW teams and last OSLs have lack of terrans Flash, FanTaSy were the ones who get finals but nobody else could make finals. So it is obvious that such thing was going to happen. Just analyse the scene before balance whining this is my advice.
Yeah Kespa's terran problems started already in late BW, and with Flash and Fantasy both adapting poorly to SC2, there's not many terrans left for them. To top it off, almost all non-kespa terran talent simply doesn't participate in GSL. This low terran count in GSL is probably a trend we'll see continue in the future simply because the old Code S players left for EU and NA.
Somehow I ended up re-iterating your post, but I just want to say I agree. :p
There are some potential GSL stars for the future though, like TY. But right now they're not quite there.
You know what happened to those non-Kespa terrans that are in WCS NA and EU that all the protoss claim are the TvP saviors(Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, Taeja)? They were outperformed by non-Kespa protosses that also play in WCS NA/EU (MC, San, Stardust) at IEM and ASUS. You could make the arguement that if we had all the Koreans back in GSL, we would have MORE protosses.
Certainly the fact that a lot of the good terrans are competing elsewhere is a factor in the fact that we have low terran representation in GSL, I don't see how you could argue otherwise. The fact that protoss is advantaged vs terran is another factor, obviously. We're not saying (at least I'm not saying) that it would be 11-11-10 perfect world.
I'd like you to make the argument you pretend you can make, cause that makes no sense to me.
On February 08 2014 04:29 BulletCL wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong please,
is GSL October 2011 Ro16 the worst in terms of massive representation from a single race in StarCraft II tournaments in Korea? (10 terrans)
Also, what about BW? I was checking Liquipedia and the worst cases were: - Freechol OSL 2000 (10 zergs) - Daum OSL 2007 (10 terrans) - Arena MSL 2008 (10 terrans)
Am I right or did I miss something?
(I just wanna keep record of this in case of a "10+ Protoss Ro16")
Dunno about BW but regarding GSL october 2011, this is correct afaik. Even worse, there were 6 terrans in RO8 and only T from RO4 (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_October/Code_S#Racial_Distribution) At the very least it's the only GSL where a race is represented by only one player in the RO16 (Killer representing protoss that is). The thing is these GOM TvT GSL seasons lasted for very long, wasn't like a single season but more like 4 or 5. At that time people considered that having more terrans was normal because they were simply better... Like wtf...
Hopefully balance has evolved and is dealt with faster these days so I don't think the longevity of the terran supremacy in SC2 has a chance to be ever beaten by any race imho. Neither do I want this to happen actually.
To be honnest they were a lot of very good teran at the time ! Not all were legit I guess but still : Mvp, Bomber, Ganzi, Supernova, Ryung, Cliiiiide, MMA in RO16 that was a sick line up.
There also is a lot of very good protosses now, no hate what so ever.
Truth is that 10 terran players who were in Code S at some time now play in WCS AM and WCS EU. Moreover all terrans who won GSL now play there + BW teams and last OSLs have lack of terrans Flash, FanTaSy were the ones who get finals but nobody else could make finals. So it is obvious that such thing was going to happen. Just analyse the scene before balance whining this is my advice.
Yeah Kespa's terran problems started already in late BW, and with Flash and Fantasy both adapting poorly to SC2, there's not many terrans left for them. To top it off, almost all non-kespa terran talent simply doesn't participate in GSL. This low terran count in GSL is probably a trend we'll see continue in the future simply because the old Code S players left for EU and NA.
Somehow I ended up re-iterating your post, but I just want to say I agree. :p
There are some potential GSL stars for the future though, like TY. But right now they're not quite there.
You know what happened to those non-Kespa terrans that are in WCS NA and EU that all the protoss claim are the TvP saviors(Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, Taeja)? They were outperformed by non-Kespa protosses that also play in WCS NA/EU (MC, San, Stardust) at IEM and ASUS. You could make the arguement that if we had all the Koreans back in GSL, we would have MORE protosses.
Certainly the fact that a lot of the good terrans are competing elsewhere is a factor in the fact that we have low terran representation in GSL, I don't see how you could argue otherwise. The fact that protoss is advantaged vs terran is another factor, obviously. We're not saying (at least I'm not saying) that it would be 11-11-10 perfect world.
I'd like you to make the argument you pretend you can make, cause that makes no sense to me.
I am saying that there are just as many good Protoss playing outside of GSL. When Code A was played and hardly any Terrans got in, a lot of the Protoss in forums suggested that if we had Polt, taeja, Bomber, MMA, Jjakji, they would be guaranteed to made code S. Sure Jjakji already had a spot. But as can see from ASUS and IEM, Polt, taeja, Bomber aren't really guarantees. MMA didn't play but I don't think he is guaranteed. And if San, MC , stardust were in GSL, could they have taken a spot from supernova, BByong?
All I am saying if the Protoss are overestimating the effect of Koreans moving abroad in terms of representation. The Terrans abroad might be bigger names because of their previous titles, but in the current meta and form, the Protoss playing abroad can definitely match up.
So while I am not saying we would have had just 3 Terrans if all Koreans only played GSL, but 4-5 is probably a realistic projection.
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
I was looking at the recommended games polls. This game was a 6 minute PvP where Ruin died to early pressure. You people are salty ^_-
On February 08 2014 04:29 BulletCL wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong please,
is GSL October 2011 Ro16 the worst in terms of massive representation from a single race in StarCraft II tournaments in Korea? (10 terrans)
Also, what about BW? I was checking Liquipedia and the worst cases were: - Freechol OSL 2000 (10 zergs) - Daum OSL 2007 (10 terrans) - Arena MSL 2008 (10 terrans)
Am I right or did I miss something?
(I just wanna keep record of this in case of a "10+ Protoss Ro16")
Dunno about BW but regarding GSL october 2011, this is correct afaik. Even worse, there were 6 terrans in RO8 and only T from RO4 (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_October/Code_S#Racial_Distribution) At the very least it's the only GSL where a race is represented by only one player in the RO16 (Killer representing protoss that is). The thing is these GOM TvT GSL seasons lasted for very long, wasn't like a single season but more like 4 or 5. At that time people considered that having more terrans was normal because they were simply better... Like wtf...
Hopefully balance has evolved and is dealt with faster these days so I don't think the longevity of the terran supremacy in SC2 has a chance to be ever beaten by any race imho. Neither do I want this to happen actually.
To be honnest they were a lot of very good teran at the time ! Not all were legit I guess but still : Mvp, Bomber, Ganzi, Supernova, Ryung, Cliiiiide, MMA in RO16 that was a sick line up.
There also is a lot of very good protosses now, no hate what so ever.
Truth is that 10 terran players who were in Code S at some time now play in WCS AM and WCS EU. Moreover all terrans who won GSL now play there + BW teams and last OSLs have lack of terrans Flash, FanTaSy were the ones who get finals but nobody else could make finals. So it is obvious that such thing was going to happen. Just analyse the scene before balance whining this is my advice.
Yeah Kespa's terran problems started already in late BW, and with Flash and Fantasy both adapting poorly to SC2, there's not many terrans left for them. To top it off, almost all non-kespa terran talent simply doesn't participate in GSL. This low terran count in GSL is probably a trend we'll see continue in the future simply because the old Code S players left for EU and NA.
Somehow I ended up re-iterating your post, but I just want to say I agree. :p
There are some potential GSL stars for the future though, like TY. But right now they're not quite there.
You know what happened to those non-Kespa terrans that are in WCS NA and EU that all the protoss claim are the TvP saviors(Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, Taeja)? They were outperformed by non-Kespa protosses that also play in WCS NA/EU (MC, San, Stardust) at IEM and ASUS. You could make the arguement that if we had all the Koreans back in GSL, we would have MORE protosses.
Certainly the fact that a lot of the good terrans are competing elsewhere is a factor in the fact that we have low terran representation in GSL, I don't see how you could argue otherwise. The fact that protoss is advantaged vs terran is another factor, obviously. We're not saying (at least I'm not saying) that it would be 11-11-10 perfect world.
I'd like you to make the argument you pretend you can make, cause that makes no sense to me.
But as can see from ASUS and IEM, Polt, taeja, Bomber aren't really guarantees. MMA didn't play but I don't think he is guaranteed. And if San, MC , stardust were in GSL, could they have taken a spot from supernova, BByong?
"as can see from Asus and IEM"? Polt won against herO who is Ro16, then lost a TvT. Taeja underperformed against all races so he was just having a bad day. Bomber barely played PvT and won the one he did. You're not doing a very good job of convincing me^^ I think ~7 terrans would be expected (still not enough obv).
Where are the VODs? Why does GOM take so long to put them up. They could learn a thing from Proleague. I paid $5.00 for Proleague and get instant VODs. I paid $80 for GOMTV and the VODs take forever...
On February 13 2014 04:39 SoFrOsTy wrote: Where are the VODs? Why does GOM take so long to put them up. They could learn a thing from Proleague. I paid $5.00 for Proleague and get instant VODs. I paid $80 for GOMTV and the VODs take forever...
They used to be very quick with VODs when they had their own VOD system, but now they use twitch.
When you think of the best Terran's in the world right now, there are almost none playing in Korea besides Maru. Innovation could be considered but I think we know he's not the best terran in the world right now. They are all playing outside of Korea. Yes there are other races abroad, but nowhere near the % of top, top level players from Protoss or Zerg playing abroad. MC, Stardust aren't the best Protoss in the world, Zerg nowhere close to the top level players abroad. So in terms of the % of the best of the best, Terran has by far the most abroad at the moment when considering the best of their race. Maru (Flash? maybe) is the only one really still in Korea right now. Basically all the Terran's besides Maru have been underperforming for a while now. In no way is that the whole story, but it is definitely contributing to the extremely low % of Terrans in ProLeague and Code S.
On February 13 2014 05:06 ArTiFaKs wrote: When you think of the best Terran's in the world right now, there are almost none playing in Korea besides Maru. Innovation could be considered but I think we know he's not the best terran in the world right now. They are all playing outside of Korea. Yes there are other races abroad, but nowhere near the % of top, top level players from Protoss or Zerg playing abroad. MC, Stardust aren't the best Protoss in the world, Zerg nowhere close to the top level players abroad. So in terms of the % of the best of the best, Terran has by far the most abroad at the moment when considering the best of their race. Maru (Flash? maybe) is the only one really still in Korea right now. Basically all the Terran's besides Maru have been underperforming for a while now. In no way is that the whole story, but it is definitely contributing to the extremely low % of Terrans in ProLeague and Code S.
You do realise that Flash and TY are very, very highly regarded? Albeit they didn't make it to Code S - it really wouldn't have surprised anybody if they had, and even gone onto win the entire tournament - equally the same for Maru.
The other top terrans today would probs be Taeja, Bomber, Polt and Innovation. Jjakji isn't as stronk
On February 13 2014 05:06 ArTiFaKs wrote: When you think of the best Terran's in the world right now, there are almost none playing in Korea besides Maru. Innovation could be considered but I think we know he's not the best terran in the world right now. They are all playing outside of Korea. Yes there are other races abroad, but nowhere near the % of top, top level players from Protoss or Zerg playing abroad. MC, Stardust aren't the best Protoss in the world, Zerg nowhere close to the top level players abroad. So in terms of the % of the best of the best, Terran has by far the most abroad at the moment when considering the best of their race. Maru (Flash? maybe) is the only one really still in Korea right now. Basically all the Terran's besides Maru have been underperforming for a while now. In no way is that the whole story, but it is definitely contributing to the extremely low % of Terrans in ProLeague and Code S.
You do realise that Flash and TY are very, very highly regarded? Albeit they didn't make it to Code S - it really wouldn't have surprised anybody if they had, and even gone onto win the entire tournament - equally the same for Maru.
The other top terrans today would probs be Taeja, Bomber, Polt and Innovation. Jjakji isn't as stronk
There are enough top-Terrans, just not enough place for everyone. At least this season. It's not Protoss's fail or Zerg's fail or Terran's fail. It's just conjucture, not problem of balance or other stuff. I won't be surprised if in the end of season it will be perfect distribution in World Finals. 6/5/5. Imagine what could happen with total regionlock now though
Glad for soO and sOs <3 Ro16 is going to be fierce.
On February 13 2014 05:06 ArTiFaKs wrote: When you think of the best Terran's in the world right now, there are almost none playing in Korea besides Maru. Innovation could be considered but I think we know he's not the best terran in the world right now. They are all playing outside of Korea. Yes there are other races abroad, but nowhere near the % of top, top level players from Protoss or Zerg playing abroad. MC, Stardust aren't the best Protoss in the world, Zerg nowhere close to the top level players abroad. So in terms of the % of the best of the best, Terran has by far the most abroad at the moment when considering the best of their race. Maru (Flash? maybe) is the only one really still in Korea right now. Basically all the Terran's besides Maru have been underperforming for a while now. In no way is that the whole story, but it is definitely contributing to the extremely low % of Terrans in ProLeague and Code S.
You do realise that Flash and TY are very, very highly regarded? Albeit they didn't make it to Code S - it really wouldn't have surprised anybody if they had, and even gone onto win the entire tournament - equally the same for Maru.
The other top terrans today would probs be Taeja, Bomber, Polt and Innovation. Jjakji isn't as stronk
actually, Flash winning a GSL would surprise quite a few people :p
On February 13 2014 05:06 ArTiFaKs wrote: When you think of the best Terran's in the world right now, there are almost none playing in Korea besides Maru. Innovation could be considered but I think we know he's not the best terran in the world right now. They are all playing outside of Korea. Yes there are other races abroad, but nowhere near the % of top, top level players from Protoss or Zerg playing abroad. MC, Stardust aren't the best Protoss in the world, Zerg nowhere close to the top level players abroad. So in terms of the % of the best of the best, Terran has by far the most abroad at the moment when considering the best of their race. Maru (Flash? maybe) is the only one really still in Korea right now. Basically all the Terran's besides Maru have been underperforming for a while now. In no way is that the whole story, but it is definitely contributing to the extremely low % of Terrans in ProLeague and Code S.
You do realise that Flash and TY are very, very highly regarded? Albeit they didn't make it to Code S - it really wouldn't have surprised anybody if they had, and even gone onto win the entire tournament - equally the same for Maru.
The other top terrans today would probs be Taeja, Bomber, Polt and Innovation. Jjakji isn't as stronk
On February 13 2014 05:06 ArTiFaKs wrote: When you think of the best Terran's in the world right now, there are almost none playing in Korea besides Maru. Innovation could be considered but I think we know he's not the best terran in the world right now. They are all playing outside of Korea. Yes there are other races abroad, but nowhere near the % of top, top level players from Protoss or Zerg playing abroad. MC, Stardust aren't the best Protoss in the world, Zerg nowhere close to the top level players abroad. So in terms of the % of the best of the best, Terran has by far the most abroad at the moment when considering the best of their race. Maru (Flash? maybe) is the only one really still in Korea right now. Basically all the Terran's besides Maru have been underperforming for a while now. In no way is that the whole story, but it is definitely contributing to the extremely low % of Terrans in ProLeague and Code S.
You do realise that Flash and TY are very, very highly regarded? Albeit they didn't make it to Code S - it really wouldn't have surprised anybody if they had, and even gone onto win the entire tournament - equally the same for Maru.
The other top terrans today would probs be Taeja, Bomber, Polt and Innovation. Jjakji isn't as stronk
While I say it is true that jjakji is a strong player and is definitely playing well, it is pretty well known that players that participate in a lot of foreigner tournaments do show inflation in their rating. jjakji is playing in a ton of tournaments in europe so his score is rising very quickly. I think he still would have done ok in Code S this season but he wouldn't have been a favorite to win it all imo. His IEM qualifier run was pretty good though
On February 13 2014 05:06 ArTiFaKs wrote: When you think of the best Terran's in the world right now, there are almost none playing in Korea besides Maru. Innovation could be considered but I think we know he's not the best terran in the world right now. They are all playing outside of Korea. Yes there are other races abroad, but nowhere near the % of top, top level players from Protoss or Zerg playing abroad. MC, Stardust aren't the best Protoss in the world, Zerg nowhere close to the top level players abroad. So in terms of the % of the best of the best, Terran has by far the most abroad at the moment when considering the best of their race. Maru (Flash? maybe) is the only one really still in Korea right now. Basically all the Terran's besides Maru have been underperforming for a while now. In no way is that the whole story, but it is definitely contributing to the extremely low % of Terrans in ProLeague and Code S.
Explanation after the fact. The terrans in Korea are not top players because they got raped so hard by protoss. I would rate TY a lot higher than the players you mentioned but he was 0-x repeatedly by mid-level/code B protosses.
On February 13 2014 05:06 ArTiFaKs wrote: When you think of the best Terran's in the world right now, there are almost none playing in Korea besides Maru. Innovation could be considered but I think we know he's not the best terran in the world right now. They are all playing outside of Korea. Yes there are other races abroad, but nowhere near the % of top, top level players from Protoss or Zerg playing abroad. MC, Stardust aren't the best Protoss in the world, Zerg nowhere close to the top level players abroad. So in terms of the % of the best of the best, Terran has by far the most abroad at the moment when considering the best of their race. Maru (Flash? maybe) is the only one really still in Korea right now. Basically all the Terran's besides Maru have been underperforming for a while now. In no way is that the whole story, but it is definitely contributing to the extremely low % of Terrans in ProLeague and Code S.
That's my point, even though a lot of the top terrans are not playing in KR, those terrans are still getting outperformed by supposedly 'mid tier' protosses that play in EU. So even if those top terrans were playing in KR, it is no sure thing they would have made Code S. Would there be more terrans representation, sure. Will the effect be as big as most protosses on TL thinks, judging by IEM and ASUS, I don't think so.
It is similar to the GOMTvT days. You could say Puzzle, Killer, MC, Genius were top protoss. But you could probably name 15-20 terrans that are on par with them. There are simply many more top protosses compare to terrans currently.
We will see once the new changes come through, the top protosses will still remain on top but some will fall off. Just like how it was for terrans and zergs previously.
EPT
