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On January 22 2014 07:11 Darkhoarse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 07:10 Xoronius wrote:On January 22 2014 07:05 Darkhoarse wrote:On January 22 2014 07:01 ssxsilver wrote:
Oh good. More Naniwa vs Scarlett discussions. I'm not actually arguing I'm just having a bit of fun  Since were already on the way to kill time until WCS AM, have you accepted the undeniable superiority of Round Robin by now? Round Robin is the Devil's work.
He must have crafted it to seduce people to his side then, since it is such a fine work.
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On January 22 2014 07:05 MavivaM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 06:57 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:52 Zealously wrote:On January 22 2014 06:50 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:49 Swiipii wrote:
Stakiman is playing really badly but maybe it's just the stress? What stress? He has absolutely no weight on his shoulders, no one expects him to win. No I'm sure he doesn't feel the pressure of either advancing to Premier or losing and having to go through a grueling set of qualifiers again next season, nor any pressure over the fact that he's playing (arguably) one of the biggest matches of his life against Europe's best player. Nah, why would he feel any stress? So you say when a little team from the 6th division plays a 1st divison team in a football cup, the little team has a lot of stress on them, because if they lose, they'll have to wait a whole year to compete again, and hell, it's a 1st divison star league! No, not at all. They are happy to play against said team, and utterly proud of themselves to make it this far (because a 6th division team needs to beat higher ones to meet a 1st division one), and if they lose it's expected, if they manage to get a draw (that's a close series if you translate my analogy to SC language) then their city will make a statue for the team, and if they win, well... you better avoid said city for the next few days. No pressure, and he failed, but he was already a winner getting through his bracket, so he shouldn't be ashamed or anything, but me, the viewer has the right to bash on him, because these games were awful to watch, and I have no idea why it had to be a BO3. No, on several levels. When a little team plays a professional squad they would give their absolute best and be on top level tension since it's their chance to show to someone more competent their ability. Mediocre people would get content and say "oh well, I made it that far now I can relax". Competitive people always want to do their best, and therefore feel tension. Also: money on the line, another season of Wcs on the line, viewers like you who want to criticize everything since they are behind a keyboard and maybe the fact that Stakiman probably wants to be a professional, so he cannot be content with this result. Unlike him you have no chance to qualify to Wcs afaik, so your "right to bash" looks conceited.
Since when does giving your best equals being under heavy pressure? Sure, make me race with an olympic runner, and I'll give my best for sure, but I won't faint from the stress or anything. It's not about giving up, it's about playing without any expectations from the public, and that's why you are relieved from the immense pressure.
And yes, I have the right to bash, because I did not expect a "Naniwa vs random gold guy"-play. I don't know why he played that way, but it made for a cringeworthy series. Whether my criticism is for Stakiman or Blizzard is up to debate, but someone messed up if such a series could happen.
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On January 22 2014 07:16 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 07:05 MavivaM wrote:On January 22 2014 06:57 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:52 Zealously wrote:On January 22 2014 06:50 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:49 Swiipii wrote:
Stakiman is playing really badly but maybe it's just the stress? What stress? He has absolutely no weight on his shoulders, no one expects him to win. No I'm sure he doesn't feel the pressure of either advancing to Premier or losing and having to go through a grueling set of qualifiers again next season, nor any pressure over the fact that he's playing (arguably) one of the biggest matches of his life against Europe's best player. Nah, why would he feel any stress? So you say when a little team from the 6th division plays a 1st divison team in a football cup, the little team has a lot of stress on them, because if they lose, they'll have to wait a whole year to compete again, and hell, it's a 1st divison star league! No, not at all. They are happy to play against said team, and utterly proud of themselves to make it this far (because a 6th division team needs to beat higher ones to meet a 1st division one), and if they lose it's expected, if they manage to get a draw (that's a close series if you translate my analogy to SC language) then their city will make a statue for the team, and if they win, well... you better avoid said city for the next few days. No pressure, and he failed, but he was already a winner getting through his bracket, so he shouldn't be ashamed or anything, but me, the viewer has the right to bash on him, because these games were awful to watch, and I have no idea why it had to be a BO3. No, on several levels. When a little team plays a professional squad they would give their absolute best and be on top level tension since it's their chance to show to someone more competent their ability. Mediocre people would get content and say "oh well, I made it that far now I can relax". Competitive people always want to do their best, and therefore feel tension. Also: money on the line, another season of Wcs on the line, viewers like you who want to criticize everything since they are behind a keyboard and maybe the fact that Stakiman probably wants to be a professional, so he cannot be content with this result. Unlike him you have no chance to qualify to Wcs afaik, so your "right to bash" looks conceited. Since when does giving your best equals being under heavy pressure? Sure, make me race with an olympic runner, and I'll give my best for sure, but I won't faint from the stress or anything. It's not about giving up, it's about playing without any expectations from the public, and that's why you are relieved from the immense pressure. And yes, I have the right to bash, because I did not expect a "Naniwa vs random gold guy"-play. I don't know why he played that way, but it made for a cringeworthy series. Whether my criticism is for Stakiman or Blizzard is up to debate, but someone messed up if such a series could happen.
Because you don't care about running apparently.
Or have never been in a competition that you cared about.
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On January 22 2014 07:10 Darkhoarse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 07:07 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:59 stuchiu wrote:On January 22 2014 06:57 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:52 Zealously wrote:On January 22 2014 06:50 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:49 Swiipii wrote:
Stakiman is playing really badly but maybe it's just the stress? What stress? He has absolutely no weight on his shoulders, no one expects him to win. No I'm sure he doesn't feel the pressure of either advancing to Premier or losing and having to go through a grueling set of qualifiers again next season, nor any pressure over the fact that he's playing (arguably) one of the biggest matches of his life against Europe's best player. Nah, why would he feel any stress? So you say when a little team from the 6th division plays a 1st divison team in a football cup, the little team has a lot of stress on them, because if they lose, they'll have to wait a whole year to compete again, and hell, it's a 1st divison star league! No, not at all. They are happy to play against said team, and utterly proud of themselves to make it this far (because a 6th division team needs to beat higher ones to meet a 1st division one), and if they lose it's expected, if they manage to get a draw (that's a close series if you translate my analogy to SC language) then their city will make a statue for the team, and if they win, well... you better avoid said city for the next few days. No pressure, and he failed, but he was already a winner getting through his bracket, so he shouldn't be ashamed or anything, but me, the viewer has the right to bash on him, because these games were awful to watch, and I have no idea why it had to be a BO3. This isn't football. As Wolf often says, a loss here could be the same as the end of his career. Just look at Titan. He himself said that if he hadn't made it into premier, he would have stoped being a professional player and just turned it into a hobby on the side while studying. But he's not a professional player (yet?), and if he gives up on his goal (assuming he wants be a professional gamer) just because he lost to possibly the best foreigner in the world, then he wasn't serious about it in the first place. Sure, he wanted to win, but with a common sense, he had to know that it's not the time he's supposed to break through. If he wins that's an enormous boost, and if he doesn't... good job making it this far, next time you'll be more lucky with the draws. And I know everyone has some kind of pressure on them, but didn't he have pressure playing the qualifiers? Don't compare this pressure, with the pressure players feel in an ace match, or final, or in a game where they play versus their rivals, or when established pro players are trying to hang on the last straw. Those are the kind of pressures, that can break you hard, not this. I would argue that the pressure of having a career is worse. Think of it this way. If Naniwa loses the IEM finals to Life, what is the difference? Sure he makes less money, sure he doesn't get the title. That's a lot of pressure. But he still has his career and popularity to fall back on. He'll be invited to more tournaments, have the opportunity to make more money,and still have tons of fans. Stakiman on the other hand has nothing if he loses to Naniwa but a $600 dollar paycheck and a road ahead of him through another difficult qualifier filled with good Europeans and Koreans alike. He may never play another televised game of Starcraft because of this loss, and that sucks. So yeah, pressure.
On January 22 2014 07:11 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 07:07 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:59 stuchiu wrote:On January 22 2014 06:57 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:52 Zealously wrote:On January 22 2014 06:50 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:49 Swiipii wrote:
Stakiman is playing really badly but maybe it's just the stress? What stress? He has absolutely no weight on his shoulders, no one expects him to win. No I'm sure he doesn't feel the pressure of either advancing to Premier or losing and having to go through a grueling set of qualifiers again next season, nor any pressure over the fact that he's playing (arguably) one of the biggest matches of his life against Europe's best player. Nah, why would he feel any stress? So you say when a little team from the 6th division plays a 1st divison team in a football cup, the little team has a lot of stress on them, because if they lose, they'll have to wait a whole year to compete again, and hell, it's a 1st divison star league! No, not at all. They are happy to play against said team, and utterly proud of themselves to make it this far (because a 6th division team needs to beat higher ones to meet a 1st division one), and if they lose it's expected, if they manage to get a draw (that's a close series if you translate my analogy to SC language) then their city will make a statue for the team, and if they win, well... you better avoid said city for the next few days. No pressure, and he failed, but he was already a winner getting through his bracket, so he shouldn't be ashamed or anything, but me, the viewer has the right to bash on him, because these games were awful to watch, and I have no idea why it had to be a BO3. This isn't football. As Wolf often says, a loss here could be the same as the end of his career. Just look at Titan. He himself said that if he hadn't made it into premier, he would have stoped being a professional player and just turned it into a hobby on the side while studying. But he's not a professional player (yet?), and if he gives up on his goal (assuming he wants be a professional gamer) just because he lost to possibly the best foreigner in the world, then he wasn't serious about it in the first place. Sure, he wanted to win, but with a common sense, he had to know that it's not the time he's supposed to break through. If he wins that's an enormous boost, and if he doesn't... good job making it this far, next time you'll be more lucky with the draws. And I know everyone has some kind of pressure on them, but didn't he have pressure playing the qualifiers? Don't compare this pressure, with the pressure players feel in an ace match, or final, or in a game where they play versus their rivals, or when established pro players are trying to hang on the last straw. Those are the kind of pressures, that can break you hard, not this. Please refer to my previous post: + Show Spoiler +On January 22 2014 07:03 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 06:57 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:52 Zealously wrote:On January 22 2014 06:50 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:49 Swiipii wrote:
Stakiman is playing really badly but maybe it's just the stress? What stress? He has absolutely no weight on his shoulders, no one expects him to win. No I'm sure he doesn't feel the pressure of either advancing to Premier or losing and having to go through a grueling set of qualifiers again next season, nor any pressure over the fact that he's playing (arguably) one of the biggest matches of his life against Europe's best player. Nah, why would he feel any stress? So you say when a little team from the 6th division plays a 1st divison team in a football cup, the little team has a lot of stress on them, because if they lose, they'll have to wait a whole year to compete again, and hell, it's a 1st divison star league! No, not at all. They are happy to play against said team, and utterly proud of themselves to make it this far (because a 6th division team needs to beat higher ones to meet a 1st division one), and if they lose it's expected, if they manage to get a draw (that's a close series if you translate my analogy to SC language) then their city will make a statue for the team, and if they win, well... you better avoid said city for the next few days. No pressure, and he failed, but he was already a winner getting through his bracket, so he shouldn't be ashamed or anything, but me, the viewer has the right to bash on him, because these games were awful to watch, and I have no idea why it had to be a BO3. Do you compete at any significant level in anything? I read a whole lot of this "there's no pressure so why would he be nervous?"-crap and I think it's bullshit every time. Of course there's pressure. People think that because winning is unlikely that suddenly erases the nerves of competing in front of (tens of thousands of) people. In general, it doesn't. If someone put me in a race with an olympic medalist, you bet your life savings I'd be freaking terrified. I don't want to be embarrassed. Hell, I'm a competitor - I don't want to lose. Especially not when tons of people are watching. If you think Stakiman is happy to have played and lost against Naniwa because it was a "great oppurtunity" (which I suppose it was), I think you're very mistaken. He did not only just lose his chance at making Premier, he did it in disappointing and (to some) humiliating fashion. That doesn't feel good. At all.Even putting all this aside, there is the very real fact that sustaining oneself through Starcraft II is fucking hard. Stakiman needed this win, probably more than Naniwa. Only losers have the "I did my best"-attitude. People who really want to win that just doing your best isn't enough, and losing feels like shit.
Replying to both. So giving your best is loser mentality, but assuming you'll never ever ever have the chance to break into the pro scene if you fail here vs the best possible opponent you could've been paired with is fine?
And dude, assuming you are right, this guy broke down at 0-0? Like what the hell, if he was in a 2-0 lead I'd say you are right, but it wasn't the case.
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United States23455 Posts
On January 22 2014 07:16 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 07:11 Darkhoarse wrote:On January 22 2014 07:10 Xoronius wrote:On January 22 2014 07:05 Darkhoarse wrote:On January 22 2014 07:01 ssxsilver wrote:
Oh good. More Naniwa vs Scarlett discussions. I'm not actually arguing I'm just having a bit of fun Since were already on the way to kill time until WCS AM, have you accepted the undeniable superiority of Round Robin by now? Round Robin is the Devil's work. He must have crafted it to seduce people to his side then, since it is such a fine work.
I refused to be ensnared by this fiendish group design!
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United States23455 Posts
On January 22 2014 07:20 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 07:10 Darkhoarse wrote:On January 22 2014 07:07 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:59 stuchiu wrote:On January 22 2014 06:57 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:52 Zealously wrote:On January 22 2014 06:50 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:49 Swiipii wrote:
Stakiman is playing really badly but maybe it's just the stress? What stress? He has absolutely no weight on his shoulders, no one expects him to win. No I'm sure he doesn't feel the pressure of either advancing to Premier or losing and having to go through a grueling set of qualifiers again next season, nor any pressure over the fact that he's playing (arguably) one of the biggest matches of his life against Europe's best player. Nah, why would he feel any stress? So you say when a little team from the 6th division plays a 1st divison team in a football cup, the little team has a lot of stress on them, because if they lose, they'll have to wait a whole year to compete again, and hell, it's a 1st divison star league! No, not at all. They are happy to play against said team, and utterly proud of themselves to make it this far (because a 6th division team needs to beat higher ones to meet a 1st division one), and if they lose it's expected, if they manage to get a draw (that's a close series if you translate my analogy to SC language) then their city will make a statue for the team, and if they win, well... you better avoid said city for the next few days. No pressure, and he failed, but he was already a winner getting through his bracket, so he shouldn't be ashamed or anything, but me, the viewer has the right to bash on him, because these games were awful to watch, and I have no idea why it had to be a BO3. This isn't football. As Wolf often says, a loss here could be the same as the end of his career. Just look at Titan. He himself said that if he hadn't made it into premier, he would have stoped being a professional player and just turned it into a hobby on the side while studying. But he's not a professional player (yet?), and if he gives up on his goal (assuming he wants be a professional gamer) just because he lost to possibly the best foreigner in the world, then he wasn't serious about it in the first place. Sure, he wanted to win, but with a common sense, he had to know that it's not the time he's supposed to break through. If he wins that's an enormous boost, and if he doesn't... good job making it this far, next time you'll be more lucky with the draws. And I know everyone has some kind of pressure on them, but didn't he have pressure playing the qualifiers? Don't compare this pressure, with the pressure players feel in an ace match, or final, or in a game where they play versus their rivals, or when established pro players are trying to hang on the last straw. Those are the kind of pressures, that can break you hard, not this. I would argue that the pressure of having a career is worse. Think of it this way. If Naniwa loses the IEM finals to Life, what is the difference? Sure he makes less money, sure he doesn't get the title. That's a lot of pressure. But he still has his career and popularity to fall back on. He'll be invited to more tournaments, have the opportunity to make more money,and still have tons of fans. Stakiman on the other hand has nothing if he loses to Naniwa but a $600 dollar paycheck and a road ahead of him through another difficult qualifier filled with good Europeans and Koreans alike. He may never play another televised game of Starcraft because of this loss, and that sucks. So yeah, pressure. Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 07:11 Zealously wrote:On January 22 2014 07:07 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:59 stuchiu wrote:On January 22 2014 06:57 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:52 Zealously wrote:On January 22 2014 06:50 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:49 Swiipii wrote:
Stakiman is playing really badly but maybe it's just the stress? What stress? He has absolutely no weight on his shoulders, no one expects him to win. No I'm sure he doesn't feel the pressure of either advancing to Premier or losing and having to go through a grueling set of qualifiers again next season, nor any pressure over the fact that he's playing (arguably) one of the biggest matches of his life against Europe's best player. Nah, why would he feel any stress? So you say when a little team from the 6th division plays a 1st divison team in a football cup, the little team has a lot of stress on them, because if they lose, they'll have to wait a whole year to compete again, and hell, it's a 1st divison star league! No, not at all. They are happy to play against said team, and utterly proud of themselves to make it this far (because a 6th division team needs to beat higher ones to meet a 1st division one), and if they lose it's expected, if they manage to get a draw (that's a close series if you translate my analogy to SC language) then their city will make a statue for the team, and if they win, well... you better avoid said city for the next few days. No pressure, and he failed, but he was already a winner getting through his bracket, so he shouldn't be ashamed or anything, but me, the viewer has the right to bash on him, because these games were awful to watch, and I have no idea why it had to be a BO3. This isn't football. As Wolf often says, a loss here could be the same as the end of his career. Just look at Titan. He himself said that if he hadn't made it into premier, he would have stoped being a professional player and just turned it into a hobby on the side while studying. But he's not a professional player (yet?), and if he gives up on his goal (assuming he wants be a professional gamer) just because he lost to possibly the best foreigner in the world, then he wasn't serious about it in the first place. Sure, he wanted to win, but with a common sense, he had to know that it's not the time he's supposed to break through. If he wins that's an enormous boost, and if he doesn't... good job making it this far, next time you'll be more lucky with the draws. And I know everyone has some kind of pressure on them, but didn't he have pressure playing the qualifiers? Don't compare this pressure, with the pressure players feel in an ace match, or final, or in a game where they play versus their rivals, or when established pro players are trying to hang on the last straw. Those are the kind of pressures, that can break you hard, not this. Please refer to my previous post: + Show Spoiler +On January 22 2014 07:03 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 06:57 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:52 Zealously wrote:On January 22 2014 06:50 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:49 Swiipii wrote:
Stakiman is playing really badly but maybe it's just the stress? What stress? He has absolutely no weight on his shoulders, no one expects him to win. No I'm sure he doesn't feel the pressure of either advancing to Premier or losing and having to go through a grueling set of qualifiers again next season, nor any pressure over the fact that he's playing (arguably) one of the biggest matches of his life against Europe's best player. Nah, why would he feel any stress? So you say when a little team from the 6th division plays a 1st divison team in a football cup, the little team has a lot of stress on them, because if they lose, they'll have to wait a whole year to compete again, and hell, it's a 1st divison star league! No, not at all. They are happy to play against said team, and utterly proud of themselves to make it this far (because a 6th division team needs to beat higher ones to meet a 1st division one), and if they lose it's expected, if they manage to get a draw (that's a close series if you translate my analogy to SC language) then their city will make a statue for the team, and if they win, well... you better avoid said city for the next few days. No pressure, and he failed, but he was already a winner getting through his bracket, so he shouldn't be ashamed or anything, but me, the viewer has the right to bash on him, because these games were awful to watch, and I have no idea why it had to be a BO3. Do you compete at any significant level in anything? I read a whole lot of this "there's no pressure so why would he be nervous?"-crap and I think it's bullshit every time. Of course there's pressure. People think that because winning is unlikely that suddenly erases the nerves of competing in front of (tens of thousands of) people. In general, it doesn't. If someone put me in a race with an olympic medalist, you bet your life savings I'd be freaking terrified. I don't want to be embarrassed. Hell, I'm a competitor - I don't want to lose. Especially not when tons of people are watching. If you think Stakiman is happy to have played and lost against Naniwa because it was a "great oppurtunity" (which I suppose it was), I think you're very mistaken. He did not only just lose his chance at making Premier, he did it in disappointing and (to some) humiliating fashion. That doesn't feel good. At all.Even putting all this aside, there is the very real fact that sustaining oneself through Starcraft II is fucking hard. Stakiman needed this win, probably more than Naniwa. Only losers have the "I did my best"-attitude. People who really want to win that just doing your best isn't enough, and losing feels like shit. Replying to both. So giving your best is loser mentality, but assuming you'll never ever ever have the chance to break into the pro scene if you fail here vs the best possible opponent you could've been paired with is fine? And dude, assuming you are right, this guy broke down at 0-0? Like what the hell, if he was in a 2-0 lead I'd say you are right, but it wasn't the case.
I'm not saying he is going to give up on his pro career or anything, but what are the odds he makes it through the qualifiers again. Not great all things considered. So this was his best opportunity to make something of a pro gaming career. He may get another one, but losing this one must hurt.
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On January 22 2014 07:19 MavivaM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 07:16 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 07:05 MavivaM wrote:On January 22 2014 06:57 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:52 Zealously wrote:On January 22 2014 06:50 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:49 Swiipii wrote:
Stakiman is playing really badly but maybe it's just the stress? What stress? He has absolutely no weight on his shoulders, no one expects him to win. No I'm sure he doesn't feel the pressure of either advancing to Premier or losing and having to go through a grueling set of qualifiers again next season, nor any pressure over the fact that he's playing (arguably) one of the biggest matches of his life against Europe's best player. Nah, why would he feel any stress? So you say when a little team from the 6th division plays a 1st divison team in a football cup, the little team has a lot of stress on them, because if they lose, they'll have to wait a whole year to compete again, and hell, it's a 1st divison star league! No, not at all. They are happy to play against said team, and utterly proud of themselves to make it this far (because a 6th division team needs to beat higher ones to meet a 1st division one), and if they lose it's expected, if they manage to get a draw (that's a close series if you translate my analogy to SC language) then their city will make a statue for the team, and if they win, well... you better avoid said city for the next few days. No pressure, and he failed, but he was already a winner getting through his bracket, so he shouldn't be ashamed or anything, but me, the viewer has the right to bash on him, because these games were awful to watch, and I have no idea why it had to be a BO3. No, on several levels. When a little team plays a professional squad they would give their absolute best and be on top level tension since it's their chance to show to someone more competent their ability. Mediocre people would get content and say "oh well, I made it that far now I can relax". Competitive people always want to do their best, and therefore feel tension. Also: money on the line, another season of Wcs on the line, viewers like you who want to criticize everything since they are behind a keyboard and maybe the fact that Stakiman probably wants to be a professional, so he cannot be content with this result. Unlike him you have no chance to qualify to Wcs afaik, so your "right to bash" looks conceited. Since when does giving your best equals being under heavy pressure? Sure, make me race with an olympic runner, and I'll give my best for sure, but I won't faint from the stress or anything. It's not about giving up, it's about playing without any expectations from the public, and that's why you are relieved from the immense pressure. And yes, I have the right to bash, because I did not expect a "Naniwa vs random gold guy"-play. I don't know why he played that way, but it made for a cringeworthy series. Whether my criticism is for Stakiman or Blizzard is up to debate, but someone messed up if such a series could happen. Because you don't care about running apparently. Or have never been in a competition that you cared about.
The competitions I've been in were for my own league. In training sessions I was paired against practice partners from higher weight-category, and while it was much more frustrating to play against them, I didn't feel like "omg, if I can't beat him i'm a no one!". When I was playing against guys from my own league I was sick as hell.
Really now, why would I mess up when I fight vs a guy with 25 kgs on me? What part of my brain should make me feel pressured into messing up, and making a technical error? I really don't know.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
No, giving your best is bare minimum. When you're in the tip top in any (e-)sport in any region, you start to demand more of yourself than just "doing your best". I don't give shit about doing my best at the Nationals, I want to win. If I end up fourth because I wasn't good enough, do you think I'm satisfied? No, I'm not - it doesn't work like that. Stakiman probably isn't (and shouldn't be) happy with how he performed either, valuable experience or not.
As for the idea that you should assume anything - you don't have to assume that you're toast if you don't make it, but you're certainly going to entertain the thought at one time or another. In a scene where you have to win a lot to sustain yourself if you want to play full time (usually a requirement for becoming an international top player), it's only natural that the do-or-die situation will get to you. He's facing the qualifiers again next season - better players than him have failed to make it through those. Knowing that you'll have to do that again if you lose is a very real concern. Even the elite Korean players tell us how much they fear the GSL qualifiers.
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On January 22 2014 07:22 Darkhoarse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 07:16 Xoronius wrote:On January 22 2014 07:11 Darkhoarse wrote:On January 22 2014 07:10 Xoronius wrote:On January 22 2014 07:05 Darkhoarse wrote:On January 22 2014 07:01 ssxsilver wrote:
Oh good. More Naniwa vs Scarlett discussions. I'm not actually arguing I'm just having a bit of fun Since were already on the way to kill time until WCS AM, have you accepted the undeniable superiority of Round Robin by now? Round Robin is the Devil's work. He must have crafted it to seduce people to his side then, since it is such a fine work. I refused to be ensnared by this fiendish group design!
I refuse to answer to arguments, in which I have to google translate more than one word!
Seriously though, I´m going to take at least a nap now, have fun in the NA thread, maybe I´ll come by again in a few hours.
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On January 22 2014 07:23 Darkhoarse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 07:20 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 07:10 Darkhoarse wrote:On January 22 2014 07:07 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:59 stuchiu wrote:On January 22 2014 06:57 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:52 Zealously wrote:On January 22 2014 06:50 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:49 Swiipii wrote:
Stakiman is playing really badly but maybe it's just the stress? What stress? He has absolutely no weight on his shoulders, no one expects him to win. No I'm sure he doesn't feel the pressure of either advancing to Premier or losing and having to go through a grueling set of qualifiers again next season, nor any pressure over the fact that he's playing (arguably) one of the biggest matches of his life against Europe's best player. Nah, why would he feel any stress? So you say when a little team from the 6th division plays a 1st divison team in a football cup, the little team has a lot of stress on them, because if they lose, they'll have to wait a whole year to compete again, and hell, it's a 1st divison star league! No, not at all. They are happy to play against said team, and utterly proud of themselves to make it this far (because a 6th division team needs to beat higher ones to meet a 1st division one), and if they lose it's expected, if they manage to get a draw (that's a close series if you translate my analogy to SC language) then their city will make a statue for the team, and if they win, well... you better avoid said city for the next few days. No pressure, and he failed, but he was already a winner getting through his bracket, so he shouldn't be ashamed or anything, but me, the viewer has the right to bash on him, because these games were awful to watch, and I have no idea why it had to be a BO3. This isn't football. As Wolf often says, a loss here could be the same as the end of his career. Just look at Titan. He himself said that if he hadn't made it into premier, he would have stoped being a professional player and just turned it into a hobby on the side while studying. But he's not a professional player (yet?), and if he gives up on his goal (assuming he wants be a professional gamer) just because he lost to possibly the best foreigner in the world, then he wasn't serious about it in the first place. Sure, he wanted to win, but with a common sense, he had to know that it's not the time he's supposed to break through. If he wins that's an enormous boost, and if he doesn't... good job making it this far, next time you'll be more lucky with the draws. And I know everyone has some kind of pressure on them, but didn't he have pressure playing the qualifiers? Don't compare this pressure, with the pressure players feel in an ace match, or final, or in a game where they play versus their rivals, or when established pro players are trying to hang on the last straw. Those are the kind of pressures, that can break you hard, not this. I would argue that the pressure of having a career is worse. Think of it this way. If Naniwa loses the IEM finals to Life, what is the difference? Sure he makes less money, sure he doesn't get the title. That's a lot of pressure. But he still has his career and popularity to fall back on. He'll be invited to more tournaments, have the opportunity to make more money,and still have tons of fans. Stakiman on the other hand has nothing if he loses to Naniwa but a $600 dollar paycheck and a road ahead of him through another difficult qualifier filled with good Europeans and Koreans alike. He may never play another televised game of Starcraft because of this loss, and that sucks. So yeah, pressure. On January 22 2014 07:11 Zealously wrote:On January 22 2014 07:07 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:59 stuchiu wrote:On January 22 2014 06:57 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:52 Zealously wrote:On January 22 2014 06:50 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:49 Swiipii wrote:
Stakiman is playing really badly but maybe it's just the stress? What stress? He has absolutely no weight on his shoulders, no one expects him to win. No I'm sure he doesn't feel the pressure of either advancing to Premier or losing and having to go through a grueling set of qualifiers again next season, nor any pressure over the fact that he's playing (arguably) one of the biggest matches of his life against Europe's best player. Nah, why would he feel any stress? So you say when a little team from the 6th division plays a 1st divison team in a football cup, the little team has a lot of stress on them, because if they lose, they'll have to wait a whole year to compete again, and hell, it's a 1st divison star league! No, not at all. They are happy to play against said team, and utterly proud of themselves to make it this far (because a 6th division team needs to beat higher ones to meet a 1st division one), and if they lose it's expected, if they manage to get a draw (that's a close series if you translate my analogy to SC language) then their city will make a statue for the team, and if they win, well... you better avoid said city for the next few days. No pressure, and he failed, but he was already a winner getting through his bracket, so he shouldn't be ashamed or anything, but me, the viewer has the right to bash on him, because these games were awful to watch, and I have no idea why it had to be a BO3. This isn't football. As Wolf often says, a loss here could be the same as the end of his career. Just look at Titan. He himself said that if he hadn't made it into premier, he would have stoped being a professional player and just turned it into a hobby on the side while studying. But he's not a professional player (yet?), and if he gives up on his goal (assuming he wants be a professional gamer) just because he lost to possibly the best foreigner in the world, then he wasn't serious about it in the first place. Sure, he wanted to win, but with a common sense, he had to know that it's not the time he's supposed to break through. If he wins that's an enormous boost, and if he doesn't... good job making it this far, next time you'll be more lucky with the draws. And I know everyone has some kind of pressure on them, but didn't he have pressure playing the qualifiers? Don't compare this pressure, with the pressure players feel in an ace match, or final, or in a game where they play versus their rivals, or when established pro players are trying to hang on the last straw. Those are the kind of pressures, that can break you hard, not this. Please refer to my previous post: + Show Spoiler +On January 22 2014 07:03 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 06:57 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:52 Zealously wrote:On January 22 2014 06:50 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:49 Swiipii wrote:
Stakiman is playing really badly but maybe it's just the stress? What stress? He has absolutely no weight on his shoulders, no one expects him to win. No I'm sure he doesn't feel the pressure of either advancing to Premier or losing and having to go through a grueling set of qualifiers again next season, nor any pressure over the fact that he's playing (arguably) one of the biggest matches of his life against Europe's best player. Nah, why would he feel any stress? So you say when a little team from the 6th division plays a 1st divison team in a football cup, the little team has a lot of stress on them, because if they lose, they'll have to wait a whole year to compete again, and hell, it's a 1st divison star league! No, not at all. They are happy to play against said team, and utterly proud of themselves to make it this far (because a 6th division team needs to beat higher ones to meet a 1st division one), and if they lose it's expected, if they manage to get a draw (that's a close series if you translate my analogy to SC language) then their city will make a statue for the team, and if they win, well... you better avoid said city for the next few days. No pressure, and he failed, but he was already a winner getting through his bracket, so he shouldn't be ashamed or anything, but me, the viewer has the right to bash on him, because these games were awful to watch, and I have no idea why it had to be a BO3. Do you compete at any significant level in anything? I read a whole lot of this "there's no pressure so why would he be nervous?"-crap and I think it's bullshit every time. Of course there's pressure. People think that because winning is unlikely that suddenly erases the nerves of competing in front of (tens of thousands of) people. In general, it doesn't. If someone put me in a race with an olympic medalist, you bet your life savings I'd be freaking terrified. I don't want to be embarrassed. Hell, I'm a competitor - I don't want to lose. Especially not when tons of people are watching. If you think Stakiman is happy to have played and lost against Naniwa because it was a "great oppurtunity" (which I suppose it was), I think you're very mistaken. He did not only just lose his chance at making Premier, he did it in disappointing and (to some) humiliating fashion. That doesn't feel good. At all.Even putting all this aside, there is the very real fact that sustaining oneself through Starcraft II is fucking hard. Stakiman needed this win, probably more than Naniwa. Only losers have the "I did my best"-attitude. People who really want to win that just doing your best isn't enough, and losing feels like shit. Replying to both. So giving your best is loser mentality, but assuming you'll never ever ever have the chance to break into the pro scene if you fail here vs the best possible opponent you could've been paired with is fine? And dude, assuming you are right, this guy broke down at 0-0? Like what the hell, if he was in a 2-0 lead I'd say you are right, but it wasn't the case. I'm not saying he is going to give up on his pro career or anything, but what are the odds he makes it through the qualifiers again. Not great all things considered. So this was his best opportunity to make something of a pro gaming career. He may get another one, but losing this one must hurt.
There are other tournaments, starting from the small prized weeklys to WCS. If he's good, he's bound to show results, right? Or is there something in WCS, where if you qualify you get to spend 10 Attribute points, which will suddenly make you a better player?
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United States23455 Posts
On January 22 2014 07:24 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 07:19 MavivaM wrote:On January 22 2014 07:16 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 07:05 MavivaM wrote:On January 22 2014 06:57 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:52 Zealously wrote:On January 22 2014 06:50 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:49 Swiipii wrote:
Stakiman is playing really badly but maybe it's just the stress? What stress? He has absolutely no weight on his shoulders, no one expects him to win. No I'm sure he doesn't feel the pressure of either advancing to Premier or losing and having to go through a grueling set of qualifiers again next season, nor any pressure over the fact that he's playing (arguably) one of the biggest matches of his life against Europe's best player. Nah, why would he feel any stress? So you say when a little team from the 6th division plays a 1st divison team in a football cup, the little team has a lot of stress on them, because if they lose, they'll have to wait a whole year to compete again, and hell, it's a 1st divison star league! No, not at all. They are happy to play against said team, and utterly proud of themselves to make it this far (because a 6th division team needs to beat higher ones to meet a 1st division one), and if they lose it's expected, if they manage to get a draw (that's a close series if you translate my analogy to SC language) then their city will make a statue for the team, and if they win, well... you better avoid said city for the next few days. No pressure, and he failed, but he was already a winner getting through his bracket, so he shouldn't be ashamed or anything, but me, the viewer has the right to bash on him, because these games were awful to watch, and I have no idea why it had to be a BO3. No, on several levels. When a little team plays a professional squad they would give their absolute best and be on top level tension since it's their chance to show to someone more competent their ability. Mediocre people would get content and say "oh well, I made it that far now I can relax". Competitive people always want to do their best, and therefore feel tension. Also: money on the line, another season of Wcs on the line, viewers like you who want to criticize everything since they are behind a keyboard and maybe the fact that Stakiman probably wants to be a professional, so he cannot be content with this result. Unlike him you have no chance to qualify to Wcs afaik, so your "right to bash" looks conceited. Since when does giving your best equals being under heavy pressure? Sure, make me race with an olympic runner, and I'll give my best for sure, but I won't faint from the stress or anything. It's not about giving up, it's about playing without any expectations from the public, and that's why you are relieved from the immense pressure. And yes, I have the right to bash, because I did not expect a "Naniwa vs random gold guy"-play. I don't know why he played that way, but it made for a cringeworthy series. Whether my criticism is for Stakiman or Blizzard is up to debate, but someone messed up if such a series could happen. Because you don't care about running apparently. Or have never been in a competition that you cared about. The competitions I've been in were for my own league. In training sessions I was paired against practice partners from higher weight-category, and while it was much more frustrating to play against them, I didn't feel like "omg, if I can't beat him i'm a no one!". When I was playing against guys from my own league I was sick as hell. Really now, why would I mess up when I fight vs a guy with 25 kgs on me? What part of my brain should make me feel pressured into messing up, and making a technical error? I really don't know.
I mean if we're going to give personal anecdotes...
I rowed in high school for a public school. Honestly the sport of rowing at the high school level is DOMINATED by private schools. Basically if you make a finals of a major event and your school name doesn't end in "Prepatory Academy" or something similar, you're supposed to pat yourself on the back. My boat made the Stotesbury regatta (a huge race idk how to describe it) twice, but I never grabbed a medal. For a public school, that's great. But I was never happy with that, and on every starting line I would tremble uncontrollably waiting for the starter's gun. When we crossed the line fourth in my junior year, missing the podium by 1.4 seconds, I wasn't satisfied. I wasn't happy. And I had put a monumental amount of pressure upon myself to win.
Swimming was much the same. I wasn't a state record holder or anything, I was just okay. But on the starting blocks even against people I knew would beat me, I was always nervous. It just happens. It's unexplainable. I'm sure that Stakiman had a considerable amount of similar nerves.
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On January 22 2014 07:26 Zealously wrote:
No, giving your best is bare minimum. When you're in the tip top in any (e-)sport in any region, you start to demand more of yourself than just "doing your best". I don't give shit about doing my best at the Nationals, I want to win. If I end up fourth because I wasn't good enough, do you think I'm satisfied? No, I'm not - it doesn't work like that. Stakiman probably isn't (and shouldn't be) happy with how he performed either, valuable experience or not.
I didn't say he should be satisfied, I'm saying "breaking down from the pressure" is not an excuse, when you are just trying your wings in the pro scene, and face the best possible opponent you could get, and the score is 0-0/0-1/0-2. Nani is expected to win the whole thing, every game he plays on his way there is labeled as a "must win".
Stakiman on the other hand? No one even knew about him before this, and he managed to take down Ret - as much as it counts for these days ... -, from an expectation standpoint, he already overdid himself. Sure, he wanted to win, but he only had to deal with himself, the ten thousands of viewers were not expecting anything from him.
On January 22 2014 07:26 Zealously wrote:
As for the idea that you should assume anything - you don't have to assume that you're toast if you don't make it, but you're certainly going to entertain the thought at one time or another. In a scene where you have to win a lot to sustain yourself if you want to play full time (usually a requirement for becoming an international top player), it's only natural that the do-or-die situation will get to you. He's facing the qualifiers again next season - better players than him have failed to make it through those. Knowing that you'll have to do that again if you lose is a very real concern. Even the elite Korean players tell us how much they fear the GSL qualifiers.
Korea is different, it's truly a ruthless scene.
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On January 22 2014 07:33 Darkhoarse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 07:24 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 07:19 MavivaM wrote:On January 22 2014 07:16 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 07:05 MavivaM wrote:On January 22 2014 06:57 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:52 Zealously wrote:On January 22 2014 06:50 Volband wrote:On January 22 2014 06:49 Swiipii wrote:
Stakiman is playing really badly but maybe it's just the stress? What stress? He has absolutely no weight on his shoulders, no one expects him to win. No I'm sure he doesn't feel the pressure of either advancing to Premier or losing and having to go through a grueling set of qualifiers again next season, nor any pressure over the fact that he's playing (arguably) one of the biggest matches of his life against Europe's best player. Nah, why would he feel any stress? So you say when a little team from the 6th division plays a 1st divison team in a football cup, the little team has a lot of stress on them, because if they lose, they'll have to wait a whole year to compete again, and hell, it's a 1st divison star league! No, not at all. They are happy to play against said team, and utterly proud of themselves to make it this far (because a 6th division team needs to beat higher ones to meet a 1st division one), and if they lose it's expected, if they manage to get a draw (that's a close series if you translate my analogy to SC language) then their city will make a statue for the team, and if they win, well... you better avoid said city for the next few days. No pressure, and he failed, but he was already a winner getting through his bracket, so he shouldn't be ashamed or anything, but me, the viewer has the right to bash on him, because these games were awful to watch, and I have no idea why it had to be a BO3. No, on several levels. When a little team plays a professional squad they would give their absolute best and be on top level tension since it's their chance to show to someone more competent their ability. Mediocre people would get content and say "oh well, I made it that far now I can relax". Competitive people always want to do their best, and therefore feel tension. Also: money on the line, another season of Wcs on the line, viewers like you who want to criticize everything since they are behind a keyboard and maybe the fact that Stakiman probably wants to be a professional, so he cannot be content with this result. Unlike him you have no chance to qualify to Wcs afaik, so your "right to bash" looks conceited. Since when does giving your best equals being under heavy pressure? Sure, make me race with an olympic runner, and I'll give my best for sure, but I won't faint from the stress or anything. It's not about giving up, it's about playing without any expectations from the public, and that's why you are relieved from the immense pressure. And yes, I have the right to bash, because I did not expect a "Naniwa vs random gold guy"-play. I don't know why he played that way, but it made for a cringeworthy series. Whether my criticism is for Stakiman or Blizzard is up to debate, but someone messed up if such a series could happen. Because you don't care about running apparently. Or have never been in a competition that you cared about. The competitions I've been in were for my own league. In training sessions I was paired against practice partners from higher weight-category, and while it was much more frustrating to play against them, I didn't feel like "omg, if I can't beat him i'm a no one!". When I was playing against guys from my own league I was sick as hell. Really now, why would I mess up when I fight vs a guy with 25 kgs on me? What part of my brain should make me feel pressured into messing up, and making a technical error? I really don't know. I mean if we're going to give personal anecdotes... I rowed in high school for a public school. Honestly the sport of rowing at the high school level is DOMINATED by private schools. Basically if you make a finals of a major event and your school name doesn't end in "Prepatory Academy" or something similar, you're supposed to pat yourself on the back. My boat made the Stotesbury regatta (a huge race idk how to describe it) twice, but I never grabbed a medal. For a public school, that's great. But I was never happy with that, and on every starting line I would tremble uncontrollably waiting for the starter's gun. When we crossed the line fourth in my junior year, missing the podium by 1.4 seconds, I wasn't satisfied. I wasn't happy. And I had put a monumental amount of pressure upon myself to win. Swimming was much the same. I wasn't a state record holder or anything, I was just okay. But on the starting blocks even against people I knew would beat me, I was always nervous. It just happens. It's unexplainable. I'm sure that Stakiman had a considerable amount of similar nerves.
You do know that there's a certain level of pressure every time you compete, and there's that pressure that just makes you fall apart. Being the underdog is much easier, because there is one person who holds you accountable, and that is you.
You example is great, because it's another scenario where an underdog competitor has no eyes on him. If you win it's huge, but if not, no one will tell you that you are a shame and a big disgrace to your school and city, hell, you might've got the opposite reaction just by making it so far! Yes, it shouldn't have satisfied you or anything, but aside from the healthy pressure everyone gets, I don't think you sailed backwards or something like that.
And from my experience, when you are in the act of competing, this pressure can even help you. It fucking sucks in the previous days, hours, minutes (well, I guess it might differ for each person), but when you are there, it can even boost your performance.
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On January 22 2014 07:57 Volband wrote:
And from my experience, when you are in the act of competing, this pressure can even help you. It fucking sucks in the previous days, hours, minutes (well, I guess it might differ for each person), but when you are there, it can even boost your performance.
And different people react to pressure differently.
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On January 22 2014 08:01 Ljas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 07:57 Volband wrote:
And from my experience, when you are in the act of competing, this pressure can even help you. It fucking sucks in the previous days, hours, minutes (well, I guess it might differ for each person), but when you are there, it can even boost your performance. And different people react to pressure differently.
...which is a statement that should finally conclude this discussion. Seriously, it just boils down to this. Some people break under stress, others love it and need it to perform their best. For some people being the underdog is cool as they don't feel the pressure from other people's expectations, for others the pressure comes from their own ambitions and other people have nothing to do with it. What's more to say?
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This was on the WCS Europe twitch channel right?
Broadcast wasn't saved? Are there going to be vods for this? Cause I really want to watch Streloks games!
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Extremely dissapointing to miss game 1 of Naniwa vs Stakiman and the casters almost acted as though it didn't happen.. 30 second synopsis of an "epic game" we missed.
Floored by this honestly.
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
On January 22 2014 08:52 [Erasmus] wrote:
This was on the WCS Europe twitch channel right?
Broadcast wasn't saved? Are there going to be vods for this? Cause I really want to watch Streloks games!
Saved and uncut: http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_europe2/b/497048404
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EPT
