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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 12 2013 20:50 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2013 15:25 AxionSteel wrote:
I love terran and it really hurts to see mech always getting crushed, but game 2 of Flash vs Curious was definitely really entertaining, enjoyed it a lot. Maybe its because I'm not a flash fan and think he's really overhyped, but I dunno. I read the 30+ pages of whine and expected to be horrified, but it was a really cool game with lots of action and both played well. The first 10 minutes of super weirdness also made it interesting :D I dunno, just a good break from the bio/mine parades.
It was only entertaining becasue Flash played exactly the way you shuoldn't play vs Vipers (aggressively). Vs Vipers (and Swarm hosts) you just need to turtle to uber Viking + Raven count. Its so badly designed that it blows my mind how Blizzard ever implemented stuff like Vipers/Swarm hosts in Sc2. David Kim is correct that mech is lame (when played optimally) in Sc2 and bio is more fun to watch. But what he doesn't understand is that the only reason mech is lame in Sc2 (when played optimally) is because blizzard made it this way. With correct design mech can actually be awesome and fun to watch.
Okay, here is the task: design the units that do stuff SHs and Vipers are supposed to do without killing mech play with it outright.
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On October 12 2013 20:50 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2013 15:25 AxionSteel wrote:
I love terran and it really hurts to see mech always getting crushed, but game 2 of Flash vs Curious was definitely really entertaining, enjoyed it a lot. Maybe its because I'm not a flash fan and think he's really overhyped, but I dunno. I read the 30+ pages of whine and expected to be horrified, but it was a really cool game with lots of action and both played well. The first 10 minutes of super weirdness also made it interesting :D I dunno, just a good break from the bio/mine parades.
It was only entertaining becasue Flash played exactly the way you shuoldn't play vs Vipers (aggressively). Vs Vipers (and Swarm hosts) you just need to turtle to uber Viking + Raven count. Its so badly designed that it blows my mind how Blizzard ever implemented stuff like Vipers/Swarm hosts in Sc2. David Kim is correct that mech is lame (when played optimally) in Sc2 and bio is more fun to watch. But what he doesn't understand is that the only reason mech is lame in Sc2 (when played optimally) is because blizzard made it this way. With correct design mech can actually be awesome and fun to watch.
Obviously Flash should have play like the lolturtlenoob he is and split the map with 100 turrets and bored everyone out of their minds.
On October 12 2013 20:56 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2013 20:50 Hider wrote:On October 12 2013 15:25 AxionSteel wrote:
I love terran and it really hurts to see mech always getting crushed, but game 2 of Flash vs Curious was definitely really entertaining, enjoyed it a lot. Maybe its because I'm not a flash fan and think he's really overhyped, but I dunno. I read the 30+ pages of whine and expected to be horrified, but it was a really cool game with lots of action and both played well. The first 10 minutes of super weirdness also made it interesting :D I dunno, just a good break from the bio/mine parades.
It was only entertaining becasue Flash played exactly the way you shuoldn't play vs Vipers (aggressively). Vs Vipers (and Swarm hosts) you just need to turtle to uber Viking + Raven count. Its so badly designed that it blows my mind how Blizzard ever implemented stuff like Vipers/Swarm hosts in Sc2. David Kim is correct that mech is lame (when played optimally) in Sc2 and bio is more fun to watch. But what he doesn't understand is that the only reason mech is lame in Sc2 (when played optimally) is because blizzard made it this way. With correct design mech can actually be awesome and fun to watch. Okay, here is the task: design the units that do stuff SHs and Vipers are supposed to do without killing mech play with it outright.
Defilers and lurkers ._. oh look, those bw unit counter parts.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Making vipers ground units might actually make mech viable. Of course it then makes them useless vs Protoss unless they can cast something while burrowed.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 12 2013 20:57 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2013 20:50 Hider wrote:On October 12 2013 15:25 AxionSteel wrote:
I love terran and it really hurts to see mech always getting crushed, but game 2 of Flash vs Curious was definitely really entertaining, enjoyed it a lot. Maybe its because I'm not a flash fan and think he's really overhyped, but I dunno. I read the 30+ pages of whine and expected to be horrified, but it was a really cool game with lots of action and both played well. The first 10 minutes of super weirdness also made it interesting :D I dunno, just a good break from the bio/mine parades.
It was only entertaining becasue Flash played exactly the way you shuoldn't play vs Vipers (aggressively). Vs Vipers (and Swarm hosts) you just need to turtle to uber Viking + Raven count. Its so badly designed that it blows my mind how Blizzard ever implemented stuff like Vipers/Swarm hosts in Sc2. David Kim is correct that mech is lame (when played optimally) in Sc2 and bio is more fun to watch. But what he doesn't understand is that the only reason mech is lame in Sc2 (when played optimally) is because blizzard made it this way. With correct design mech can actually be awesome and fun to watch. Obviously Flash should have play like the lolturtlenoob he is and split the map with 100 turrets and bored everyone out of their minds. Show nested quote +On October 12 2013 20:56 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 12 2013 20:50 Hider wrote:On October 12 2013 15:25 AxionSteel wrote:
I love terran and it really hurts to see mech always getting crushed, but game 2 of Flash vs Curious was definitely really entertaining, enjoyed it a lot. Maybe its because I'm not a flash fan and think he's really overhyped, but I dunno. I read the 30+ pages of whine and expected to be horrified, but it was a really cool game with lots of action and both played well. The first 10 minutes of super weirdness also made it interesting :D I dunno, just a good break from the bio/mine parades.
It was only entertaining becasue Flash played exactly the way you shuoldn't play vs Vipers (aggressively). Vs Vipers (and Swarm hosts) you just need to turtle to uber Viking + Raven count. Its so badly designed that it blows my mind how Blizzard ever implemented stuff like Vipers/Swarm hosts in Sc2. David Kim is correct that mech is lame (when played optimally) in Sc2 and bio is more fun to watch. But what he doesn't understand is that the only reason mech is lame in Sc2 (when played optimally) is because blizzard made it this way. With correct design mech can actually be awesome and fun to watch. Okay, here is the task: design the units that do stuff SHs and Vipers are supposed to do without killing mech play with it outright. Defilers and lurkers ._. oh look, those bw unit counter parts.
Defiler? Perhaps, granted i do not see how it replaces yanking part of viper aka getting rid of important units that would win the fight for enemy otherwise.
Lurker? Fail.
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On October 12 2013 21:02 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2013 20:57 Caihead wrote:On October 12 2013 20:50 Hider wrote:On October 12 2013 15:25 AxionSteel wrote:
I love terran and it really hurts to see mech always getting crushed, but game 2 of Flash vs Curious was definitely really entertaining, enjoyed it a lot. Maybe its because I'm not a flash fan and think he's really overhyped, but I dunno. I read the 30+ pages of whine and expected to be horrified, but it was a really cool game with lots of action and both played well. The first 10 minutes of super weirdness also made it interesting :D I dunno, just a good break from the bio/mine parades.
It was only entertaining becasue Flash played exactly the way you shuoldn't play vs Vipers (aggressively). Vs Vipers (and Swarm hosts) you just need to turtle to uber Viking + Raven count. Its so badly designed that it blows my mind how Blizzard ever implemented stuff like Vipers/Swarm hosts in Sc2. David Kim is correct that mech is lame (when played optimally) in Sc2 and bio is more fun to watch. But what he doesn't understand is that the only reason mech is lame in Sc2 (when played optimally) is because blizzard made it this way. With correct design mech can actually be awesome and fun to watch. Obviously Flash should have play like the lolturtlenoob he is and split the map with 100 turrets and bored everyone out of their minds. On October 12 2013 20:56 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 12 2013 20:50 Hider wrote:On October 12 2013 15:25 AxionSteel wrote:
I love terran and it really hurts to see mech always getting crushed, but game 2 of Flash vs Curious was definitely really entertaining, enjoyed it a lot. Maybe its because I'm not a flash fan and think he's really overhyped, but I dunno. I read the 30+ pages of whine and expected to be horrified, but it was a really cool game with lots of action and both played well. The first 10 minutes of super weirdness also made it interesting :D I dunno, just a good break from the bio/mine parades.
It was only entertaining becasue Flash played exactly the way you shuoldn't play vs Vipers (aggressively). Vs Vipers (and Swarm hosts) you just need to turtle to uber Viking + Raven count. Its so badly designed that it blows my mind how Blizzard ever implemented stuff like Vipers/Swarm hosts in Sc2. David Kim is correct that mech is lame (when played optimally) in Sc2 and bio is more fun to watch. But what he doesn't understand is that the only reason mech is lame in Sc2 (when played optimally) is because blizzard made it this way. With correct design mech can actually be awesome and fun to watch. Okay, here is the task: design the units that do stuff SHs and Vipers are supposed to do without killing mech play with it outright. Defilers and lurkers ._. oh look, those bw unit counter parts. Defiler? Perhaps, granted i do not see how it replaces yanking part of viper aka getting rid of important units that would win the fight for enemy otherwise. Lurker? Fail.
Do you understand the defiler + lurker mechanics from BW? I guess not because I don't think a single person thinks the lurker is a bad /fail / boring unit.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 12 2013 21:04 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2013 21:02 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 12 2013 20:57 Caihead wrote:On October 12 2013 20:50 Hider wrote:On October 12 2013 15:25 AxionSteel wrote:
I love terran and it really hurts to see mech always getting crushed, but game 2 of Flash vs Curious was definitely really entertaining, enjoyed it a lot. Maybe its because I'm not a flash fan and think he's really overhyped, but I dunno. I read the 30+ pages of whine and expected to be horrified, but it was a really cool game with lots of action and both played well. The first 10 minutes of super weirdness also made it interesting :D I dunno, just a good break from the bio/mine parades.
It was only entertaining becasue Flash played exactly the way you shuoldn't play vs Vipers (aggressively). Vs Vipers (and Swarm hosts) you just need to turtle to uber Viking + Raven count. Its so badly designed that it blows my mind how Blizzard ever implemented stuff like Vipers/Swarm hosts in Sc2. David Kim is correct that mech is lame (when played optimally) in Sc2 and bio is more fun to watch. But what he doesn't understand is that the only reason mech is lame in Sc2 (when played optimally) is because blizzard made it this way. With correct design mech can actually be awesome and fun to watch. Obviously Flash should have play like the lolturtlenoob he is and split the map with 100 turrets and bored everyone out of their minds. On October 12 2013 20:56 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 12 2013 20:50 Hider wrote:On October 12 2013 15:25 AxionSteel wrote:
I love terran and it really hurts to see mech always getting crushed, but game 2 of Flash vs Curious was definitely really entertaining, enjoyed it a lot. Maybe its because I'm not a flash fan and think he's really overhyped, but I dunno. I read the 30+ pages of whine and expected to be horrified, but it was a really cool game with lots of action and both played well. The first 10 minutes of super weirdness also made it interesting :D I dunno, just a good break from the bio/mine parades.
It was only entertaining becasue Flash played exactly the way you shuoldn't play vs Vipers (aggressively). Vs Vipers (and Swarm hosts) you just need to turtle to uber Viking + Raven count. Its so badly designed that it blows my mind how Blizzard ever implemented stuff like Vipers/Swarm hosts in Sc2. David Kim is correct that mech is lame (when played optimally) in Sc2 and bio is more fun to watch. But what he doesn't understand is that the only reason mech is lame in Sc2 (when played optimally) is because blizzard made it this way. With correct design mech can actually be awesome and fun to watch. Okay, here is the task: design the units that do stuff SHs and Vipers are supposed to do without killing mech play with it outright. Defilers and lurkers ._. oh look, those bw unit counter parts. Defiler? Perhaps, granted i do not see how it replaces yanking part of viper aka getting rid of important units that would win the fight for enemy otherwise. Lurker? Fail. Do you understand the defiler + lurker mechanics from BW? I guess not because I don't think a single person thinks the lurker is a bad /fail / boring unit.
I did not say Lurker is bad unit. It is cool unit with cool attack animation. I am just saying that it does not do swarm host function. And defilers last time i checked could not get rid of important units, spawn broodling used to do that.
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On October 12 2013 20:56 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2013 20:50 Hider wrote:On October 12 2013 15:25 AxionSteel wrote:
I love terran and it really hurts to see mech always getting crushed, but game 2 of Flash vs Curious was definitely really entertaining, enjoyed it a lot. Maybe its because I'm not a flash fan and think he's really overhyped, but I dunno. I read the 30+ pages of whine and expected to be horrified, but it was a really cool game with lots of action and both played well. The first 10 minutes of super weirdness also made it interesting :D I dunno, just a good break from the bio/mine parades.
It was only entertaining becasue Flash played exactly the way you shuoldn't play vs Vipers (aggressively). Vs Vipers (and Swarm hosts) you just need to turtle to uber Viking + Raven count. Its so badly designed that it blows my mind how Blizzard ever implemented stuff like Vipers/Swarm hosts in Sc2. David Kim is correct that mech is lame (when played optimally) in Sc2 and bio is more fun to watch. But what he doesn't understand is that the only reason mech is lame in Sc2 (when played optimally) is because blizzard made it this way. With correct design mech can actually be awesome and fun to watch. Okay, here is the task: design the units that do stuff SHs and Vipers are supposed to do without killing mech play with it outright.
Lots of changes are needed, cus sc2 is currently build upon flaw after flaw in terms of its core deisgn. Below are some of the most neccesary changes in terms of design (not balance). All of them are related to each other.
- SH's removed. I don't see any solution here. Its not fun regardless of whether it is used "aggressively" or defensively.
- Viper --> Add remicro to abduct, aka make the "abduct-snore" targetable and it should take like 2 seconds or so before it can pull the unit away.
- Viking then needs to be changed, cus right now its probably the most overlooked poorly designed unit. It only serves to prevent fun stuff form happening. Instead, I suggest it should be a faster, stronger harass unit instead with much lower single-target damage. This way abduct can take a nerf as Vipers doesn't hardcounter it.
- Thors becomes more like Goliaths in terms of mobility and cost (abduct less of a hard counter + makes the thor more microable).
- Siege tanks same cost and supply as in BW --> Makes binding cloud less of a hard counter to tanks as you have more tanks in your army.
- Mules removed and replaced with a different macromechanic --> We can't have strong mules with strong mech due to the option of terrean sucidiing scv's and replacing it with OC's and siege tanks --> Makes turtle mech too strong.
- Spawn larva heavily nerfed --> So zerg dosn't have much more stuff than the terran mech player without mules. This means terran mech can actually attack in the midgame.
- Raven 3 supply up from 2 (makes turtle Raven+mech worse)
- Movement speed of raven increased/ Auto-turrets buffed --> Makes it better as a harass unit than a deathball unit.
- Economy redesigned to give a 5base player a stronger economy than a 4 base player (this economy incentiviizes more offensive plays than just turtling with mech).
- Roaches can't be 2 supply and this weak. I suggest a cost increase + slight buff to stats --> Makes zerg 200 supply army better --> Otherwise terran mech can just turtle cus zerg 200 supply army sucks.
- Other adjustments should ofc be made for balance purposes (collosus also needs a look).
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On October 12 2013 20:50 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2013 15:25 AxionSteel wrote:
I love terran and it really hurts to see mech always getting crushed, but game 2 of Flash vs Curious was definitely really entertaining, enjoyed it a lot. Maybe its because I'm not a flash fan and think he's really overhyped, but I dunno. I read the 30+ pages of whine and expected to be horrified, but it was a really cool game with lots of action and both played well. The first 10 minutes of super weirdness also made it interesting :D I dunno, just a good break from the bio/mine parades.
It was only entertaining becasue Flash played exactly the way you shuoldn't play vs Vipers (aggressively). Vs Vipers (and Swarm hosts) you just need to turtle to uber Viking + Raven count. Its so badly designed that it blows my mind how Blizzard ever implemented stuff like Vipers/Swarm hosts in Sc2. David Kim is correct that mech is lame (when played optimally) in Sc2 and bio is more fun to watch. But what he doesn't understand is that the only reason mech is lame in Sc2 (when played optimally) is because blizzard made it this way. What if mech instead was designed in such a way that aggression was rewarded ...... Wouldn't that be awesome?
I don't really care if he played "wrongly" it was entertaining, and he came pretty close to winning anyways, even though the opponent played quite well. I am well aware that this is generally not how mech is played.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 12 2013 21:12 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2013 20:56 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 12 2013 20:50 Hider wrote:On October 12 2013 15:25 AxionSteel wrote:
I love terran and it really hurts to see mech always getting crushed, but game 2 of Flash vs Curious was definitely really entertaining, enjoyed it a lot. Maybe its because I'm not a flash fan and think he's really overhyped, but I dunno. I read the 30+ pages of whine and expected to be horrified, but it was a really cool game with lots of action and both played well. The first 10 minutes of super weirdness also made it interesting :D I dunno, just a good break from the bio/mine parades.
It was only entertaining becasue Flash played exactly the way you shuoldn't play vs Vipers (aggressively). Vs Vipers (and Swarm hosts) you just need to turtle to uber Viking + Raven count. Its so badly designed that it blows my mind how Blizzard ever implemented stuff like Vipers/Swarm hosts in Sc2. David Kim is correct that mech is lame (when played optimally) in Sc2 and bio is more fun to watch. But what he doesn't understand is that the only reason mech is lame in Sc2 (when played optimally) is because blizzard made it this way. With correct design mech can actually be awesome and fun to watch. Okay, here is the task: design the units that do stuff SHs and Vipers are supposed to do without killing mech play with it outright. Lots of changes are needed, cus sc2 is currently build upon flaw after flaw in terms of its core deisgn. Below are some of the most neccesary changes in terms of design (not balance). All of them are related to each other. - SH's removed. I don't see any solution here. Its not fun regardless of whether it is used "aggressively" or defensively. - Viper --> Add remicro to abduct, aka make the "abduct-snore" targetable and it should take like 2 seconds or so before it can pull the unit away. - Viking then needs to be changed, cus right now its probably the most overlooked poorly designed unit. It only serves to prevent fun stuff form happening. Instead, I suggest it should be a faster, stronger harass unit instead with much lower single-target damage. This way abduct can take a nerf as Vipers doesn't hardcounter it. - Thors becomes more like Goliaths in terms of mobility and cost (abduct less of a hard counter + makes the thor more microable). - Siege tanks same cost and supply as in BW --> Makes binding cloud less of a hard counter to tanks as you have more tanks in your army. - Mules removed and replaced with a different macromechanic --> We can't have strong mules with strong mech due to the option of terrean sucidiing scv's and replacing it with OC's and siege tanks --> Makes turtle mech too strong. - Spawn larva heavily nerfed --> So zerg dosn't have much more stuff than the terran mech player without mules. This means terran mech can actually attack in the midgame. - Raven 3 supply up from 2 (makes turtle Raven+mech worse) - Movement speed of raven increased/ Auto-turrets buffed --> Makes it better as a harass unit than a deathball unit. - Economy redesigned to give a 5base player a stronger economy than a 4 base player (this economy incentiviizes more offensive plays than just turtling with mech). - Roaches can't be 2 supply and this weak. I suggest a cost increase + slight buff to stats --> Makes zerg 200 supply army better --> Otherwise terran mech can just turtle cus zerg 200 supply army sucks. - Other adjustments should ofc be made for balance purposes (collosus also needs a look).
Uhem, i would prefer to not have viable mech then. Like seriously would not prefer.
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On October 12 2013 21:30 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2013 21:12 Hider wrote:On October 12 2013 20:56 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 12 2013 20:50 Hider wrote:On October 12 2013 15:25 AxionSteel wrote:
I love terran and it really hurts to see mech always getting crushed, but game 2 of Flash vs Curious was definitely really entertaining, enjoyed it a lot. Maybe its because I'm not a flash fan and think he's really overhyped, but I dunno. I read the 30+ pages of whine and expected to be horrified, but it was a really cool game with lots of action and both played well. The first 10 minutes of super weirdness also made it interesting :D I dunno, just a good break from the bio/mine parades.
It was only entertaining becasue Flash played exactly the way you shuoldn't play vs Vipers (aggressively). Vs Vipers (and Swarm hosts) you just need to turtle to uber Viking + Raven count. Its so badly designed that it blows my mind how Blizzard ever implemented stuff like Vipers/Swarm hosts in Sc2. David Kim is correct that mech is lame (when played optimally) in Sc2 and bio is more fun to watch. But what he doesn't understand is that the only reason mech is lame in Sc2 (when played optimally) is because blizzard made it this way. With correct design mech can actually be awesome and fun to watch. Okay, here is the task: design the units that do stuff SHs and Vipers are supposed to do without killing mech play with it outright. Lots of changes are needed, cus sc2 is currently build upon flaw after flaw in terms of its core deisgn. Below are some of the most neccesary changes in terms of design (not balance). All of them are related to each other. - SH's removed. I don't see any solution here. Its not fun regardless of whether it is used "aggressively" or defensively. - Viper --> Add remicro to abduct, aka make the "abduct-snore" targetable and it should take like 2 seconds or so before it can pull the unit away. - Viking then needs to be changed, cus right now its probably the most overlooked poorly designed unit. It only serves to prevent fun stuff form happening. Instead, I suggest it should be a faster, stronger harass unit instead with much lower single-target damage. This way abduct can take a nerf as Vipers doesn't hardcounter it. - Thors becomes more like Goliaths in terms of mobility and cost (abduct less of a hard counter + makes the thor more microable). - Siege tanks same cost and supply as in BW --> Makes binding cloud less of a hard counter to tanks as you have more tanks in your army. - Mules removed and replaced with a different macromechanic --> We can't have strong mules with strong mech due to the option of terrean sucidiing scv's and replacing it with OC's and siege tanks --> Makes turtle mech too strong. - Spawn larva heavily nerfed --> So zerg dosn't have much more stuff than the terran mech player without mules. This means terran mech can actually attack in the midgame. - Raven 3 supply up from 2 (makes turtle Raven+mech worse) - Movement speed of raven increased/ Auto-turrets buffed --> Makes it better as a harass unit than a deathball unit. - Economy redesigned to give a 5base player a stronger economy than a 4 base player (this economy incentiviizes more offensive plays than just turtling with mech). - Roaches can't be 2 supply and this weak. I suggest a cost increase + slight buff to stats --> Makes zerg 200 supply army better --> Otherwise terran mech can just turtle cus zerg 200 supply army sucks. - Other adjustments should ofc be made for balance purposes (collosus also needs a look). Uhem, i would prefer to not have viable mech then. Like seriously would not prefer.
Why? it would be too many changes? Obviously I am not suggesting this for HOTS, but for LOTV, you would need to seriously change the fundamentals of how Sc2 works to reward stuff like 1) Aggression, B) more multitasking, C) Less deathballing and D) mech viable, at the same time.
Also be aware that making these core changes are also neccesary to fix protoss (which works awfully in Sc2 I believe). Making protoss econ more similar to that of terarn and zerg is one step in the right direction. (more changes needed ofc).
TvT mech vs mech which is kinda lame now will be fucking awesome with drops all over the place as there are no VIkings to prevent fun stuff from happening. Thus, despite its reputation, mech won't be stale at all as long as we just redesign the Viking.
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Terran tears, skipping this IEM.
Blizz, pleas make terran OP in the next patch, we need it!
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Such a terrible feeling losing to mass unscouted lings in zvz. It just feels so lame.
oops wrong thread 
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EPT
