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On October 24 2013 14:23 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 14:19 ZeromuS wrote:On October 24 2013 14:14 Yhamm wrote:On October 24 2013 14:12 AxionSteel wrote:
Especially silly if they didn't let MajOr participate because he's Mexican...which is part of NA to begin with. it wasn't a NA qualifier but "America + Canada - Quebec" Stupid legalities in the Quebec and Mexico hurting tournament organization. Its pretty dumb tbh, I mean Apoc isn't a citizen and he is on a tourist Visa, he is basically on a long term vacation as far as contests are concerned. It sucks for him but honestly, he shouldnt have been playing in the first place. Wasn't that the problem Demuslim had that prevented him from playing in NA qualifiers for a long time? Or did he just choose not to play? Doesn't seem consistent
That was Shoutcraft America, I believe. They only allowed legal residents, so he was excluded.
They had rules and they followed them (unlike here)
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There's something more serious than it looks like. Inmigrants with tourist visa (B2 in the case of Apocalipse) are NOT allowed to work in the country. They do not have a social security number. Now, this guy is coming to play in the US. As far as I know, Apocalipse is really "working" by playing in the US. He is getting a retribution (WCS points, money etc) for doing a job (play). If we look at the context in sports, a football player is actually working when playing. He has that specify in his contract and is forced to pay TAXES. If e-Sports really want to big in NA, it has to set clear rules for all the foreigners that want to participate on their tournaments PERIOD
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Unfortunately one of the things about running a tournament is you get to make the rules. I hated not being able to have Demu in SHOUTcraft NA. ;(
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Extremely unprofessional by apocolypse and by the tournament admins.
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United States97277 Posts
On October 24 2013 14:40 Thrax wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 14:23 Shellshock wrote:On October 24 2013 14:19 ZeromuS wrote:On October 24 2013 14:14 Yhamm wrote:On October 24 2013 14:12 AxionSteel wrote:
Especially silly if they didn't let MajOr participate because he's Mexican...which is part of NA to begin with. it wasn't a NA qualifier but "America + Canada - Quebec" Stupid legalities in the Quebec and Mexico hurting tournament organization. Its pretty dumb tbh, I mean Apoc isn't a citizen and he is on a tourist Visa, he is basically on a long term vacation as far as contests are concerned. It sucks for him but honestly, he shouldnt have been playing in the first place. Wasn't that the problem Demuslim had that prevented him from playing in NA qualifiers for a long time? Or did he just choose not to play? Doesn't seem consistent That was Shoutcraft America, I believe. They only allowed legal residents, so he was excluded. They had rules and they followed them (unlike here)
I thought he also sat out for a bunch of IEM qualifiers, too, but maybe I just confused myself.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On October 24 2013 14:58 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 14:40 Thrax wrote:On October 24 2013 14:23 Shellshock wrote:On October 24 2013 14:19 ZeromuS wrote:On October 24 2013 14:14 Yhamm wrote:On October 24 2013 14:12 AxionSteel wrote:
Especially silly if they didn't let MajOr participate because he's Mexican...which is part of NA to begin with. it wasn't a NA qualifier but "America + Canada - Quebec" Stupid legalities in the Quebec and Mexico hurting tournament organization. Its pretty dumb tbh, I mean Apoc isn't a citizen and he is on a tourist Visa, he is basically on a long term vacation as far as contests are concerned. It sucks for him but honestly, he shouldnt have been playing in the first place. Wasn't that the problem Demuslim had that prevented him from playing in NA qualifiers for a long time? Or did he just choose not to play? Doesn't seem consistent That was Shoutcraft America, I believe. They only allowed legal residents, so he was excluded. They had rules and they followed them (unlike here) I thought he also sat out for a bunch of IEM qualifiers, too, but maybe I just confused myself.
do you need a reboot again
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On October 24 2013 13:59 ArTiFaKs wrote:
Why even have a locked American for legal residents if you are going to let a Korean on a tourist visa compete for that spot? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and is really disappointing. Especially considering all the American players that got knocked out of the qualifier because of this. And people wonder why hardly any NA pros are able to do anything because getting into any sort of tournament is a clusterfuck because of Koreans who can't compete in Korea coming here and taking up slots. Really upset about this and I hope they fix it, but I seriously doubt anything will happen. Sweet thanks Red Bull really organized tournament here.
One low-tier Korean cleans up NAs finest lol.
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On October 24 2013 15:25 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 14:58 Shellshock wrote:On October 24 2013 14:40 Thrax wrote:On October 24 2013 14:23 Shellshock wrote:On October 24 2013 14:19 ZeromuS wrote:On October 24 2013 14:14 Yhamm wrote:On October 24 2013 14:12 AxionSteel wrote:
Especially silly if they didn't let MajOr participate because he's Mexican...which is part of NA to begin with. it wasn't a NA qualifier but "America + Canada - Quebec" Stupid legalities in the Quebec and Mexico hurting tournament organization. Its pretty dumb tbh, I mean Apoc isn't a citizen and he is on a tourist Visa, he is basically on a long term vacation as far as contests are concerned. It sucks for him but honestly, he shouldnt have been playing in the first place. Wasn't that the problem Demuslim had that prevented him from playing in NA qualifiers for a long time? Or did he just choose not to play? Doesn't seem consistent That was Shoutcraft America, I believe. They only allowed legal residents, so he was excluded. They had rules and they followed them (unlike here) I thought he also sat out for a bunch of IEM qualifiers, too, but maybe I just confused myself. do you need a reboot again
LOL
Also these visa/work permit/ issues should really be tackled. Esports need to lobby more for their interests! Go Blizzard/Riot/Valve!
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On October 24 2013 15:29 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 15:25 lichter wrote:On October 24 2013 14:58 Shellshock wrote:On October 24 2013 14:40 Thrax wrote:On October 24 2013 14:23 Shellshock wrote:On October 24 2013 14:19 ZeromuS wrote:On October 24 2013 14:14 Yhamm wrote:On October 24 2013 14:12 AxionSteel wrote:
Especially silly if they didn't let MajOr participate because he's Mexican...which is part of NA to begin with. it wasn't a NA qualifier but "America + Canada - Quebec" Stupid legalities in the Quebec and Mexico hurting tournament organization. Its pretty dumb tbh, I mean Apoc isn't a citizen and he is on a tourist Visa, he is basically on a long term vacation as far as contests are concerned. It sucks for him but honestly, he shouldnt have been playing in the first place. Wasn't that the problem Demuslim had that prevented him from playing in NA qualifiers for a long time? Or did he just choose not to play? Doesn't seem consistent That was Shoutcraft America, I believe. They only allowed legal residents, so he was excluded. They had rules and they followed them (unlike here) I thought he also sat out for a bunch of IEM qualifiers, too, but maybe I just confused myself. do you need a reboot again LOL Also these visa/work permit/ issues should really be tackled. Esports need to lobby more for their interests! Go Blizzard/Riot/Valve!
I really, really would hate for ICE to actually decide to get interested in eSports. Because I have no idea how the visas work, and I guarantee you the ICE agents have no idea how eSports works. The idea of "on a tourist visa" and "taking part in a tournament" bothers me, because being in a tournament is work for the player. But unless it's an athlete visa, I have no idea what the specific restrictions and laws are regarding what type of visa vs. money making activity. (Example - Polt. I DO know what kind of Visas Polt would be on. I do not know how eSports would be classed as a money making enterprise.)
For the time being, and without getting competent immigration lawyers involved, I think I'd rather the current general state of ignorance remain. Because deep down, I'm deeply worried that the vast majority of players would find more onerous visa requirements if ICE and CBP thought about eSports. (Unless they go for the athlete visa, which I think is probably the best answer.)
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On October 24 2013 15:27 Bowzar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 13:59 ArTiFaKs wrote:
Why even have a locked American for legal residents if you are going to let a Korean on a tourist visa compete for that spot? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and is really disappointing. Especially considering all the American players that got knocked out of the qualifier because of this. And people wonder why hardly any NA pros are able to do anything because getting into any sort of tournament is a clusterfuck because of Koreans who can't compete in Korea coming here and taking up slots. Really upset about this and I hope they fix it, but I seriously doubt anything will happen. Sweet thanks Red Bull really organized tournament here. One low-tier Korean cleans up NAs finest lol.
Scarlett's the only NA player who really qualifies for the term "finest", and she's pretty severely on tilt at the moment, thanks to her sickness and her recent habit of not sleeping for multiple days in a row.
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On October 24 2013 16:44 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 15:27 Bowzar wrote:On October 24 2013 13:59 ArTiFaKs wrote:
Why even have a locked American for legal residents if you are going to let a Korean on a tourist visa compete for that spot? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and is really disappointing. Especially considering all the American players that got knocked out of the qualifier because of this. And people wonder why hardly any NA pros are able to do anything because getting into any sort of tournament is a clusterfuck because of Koreans who can't compete in Korea coming here and taking up slots. Really upset about this and I hope they fix it, but I seriously doubt anything will happen. Sweet thanks Red Bull really organized tournament here. One low-tier Korean cleans up NAs finest lol. Scarlett's the only NA player who really qualifies for the term "finest", and she's pretty severely on tilt at the moment, thanks to her sickness and her recent habit of not sleeping for multiple days in a row.
Thats exactly what im saying. The fact that one low-tier Korean can do so much damage is pathetic. Its not like he has any advantage over the other NA players.
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On October 24 2013 16:23 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 15:29 Doublemint wrote:On October 24 2013 15:25 lichter wrote:On October 24 2013 14:58 Shellshock wrote:On October 24 2013 14:40 Thrax wrote:On October 24 2013 14:23 Shellshock wrote:On October 24 2013 14:19 ZeromuS wrote:On October 24 2013 14:14 Yhamm wrote:On October 24 2013 14:12 AxionSteel wrote:
Especially silly if they didn't let MajOr participate because he's Mexican...which is part of NA to begin with. it wasn't a NA qualifier but "America + Canada - Quebec" Stupid legalities in the Quebec and Mexico hurting tournament organization. Its pretty dumb tbh, I mean Apoc isn't a citizen and he is on a tourist Visa, he is basically on a long term vacation as far as contests are concerned. It sucks for him but honestly, he shouldnt have been playing in the first place. Wasn't that the problem Demuslim had that prevented him from playing in NA qualifiers for a long time? Or did he just choose not to play? Doesn't seem consistent That was Shoutcraft America, I believe. They only allowed legal residents, so he was excluded. They had rules and they followed them (unlike here) I thought he also sat out for a bunch of IEM qualifiers, too, but maybe I just confused myself. do you need a reboot again LOL Also these visa/work permit/ issues should really be tackled. Esports need to lobby more for their interests! Go Blizzard/Riot/Valve! I really, really would hate for ICE to actually decide to get interested in eSports. Because I have no idea how the visas work, and I guarantee you the ICE agents have no idea how eSports works. The idea of "on a tourist visa" and "taking part in a tournament" bothers me, because being in a tournament is work for the player. But unless it's an athlete visa, I have no idea what the specific restrictions and laws are regarding what type of visa vs. money making activity. (Example - Polt. I DO know what kind of Visas Polt would be on. I do not know how eSports would be classed as a money making enterprise.) For the time being, and without getting competent immigration lawyers involved, I think I'd rather the current general state of ignorance remain. Because deep down, I'm deeply worried that the vast majority of players would find more onerous visa requirements if ICE and CBP thought about eSports. (Unless they go for the athlete visa, which I think is probably the best answer.)
Well of course I mean that on a highly abstract level - DO SOMETHING GOOD FOR ESPORTS REGARDING VISAS!
No question that in reality it won't be that easy, change hardly ever is easy. But if electronic sports want to be established and accepted, there also need to be clear rules regarding a player's legal requirement and under which status he is staying abroad to play for team x in region y.
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major got good tvt. i think he could of beat him if they allowed mexico! (an NA country!)
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On October 24 2013 13:12 Dr.Sin wrote:
She's right that according to the rules, Apocalypse should be DQ.
On October 24 2013 14:27 jonich0n wrote:
But can you really blame him for entering the tournament? He IS currently in the country, and do the official rules state that "Competitors with xxxx visa are not eligible" or something to that effect? Admins/organizers need to take care of this. Can we really blame the player here?
When i talked to admins there was a few special permissions from rob simpson... That was what I was told when I asked the admins about apocalypse in the first qualifier when I had to face him. Then i had to face him in the round of 8 again in this qualifier. which he atleast won the rest of the qualifier.
also the rules do say "Legal" residents, and the term legal implies some form of documentation to be a resident. A visa, or just being in the country, does NOT make you a legal resident. A green card for example is the most common way one could become a legal resident, which he does not have. Also a student visa is also another common way. Which he then has to be full time. Ala Polts case. For those saying its not clearly defined, it really is by legal doctrine. However see my first paragraph....
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in some peoples minds by going on to play the game she would be legitimizing the move (by apoc). if she really believed in her position they wouldnt play the game.
another reason they cant just play on and sort is later is because the more games that get played with 'rule breakers' in, the more work that needs to go in to fix it if scarlett is correct. so its in everyones best interest to just stop the bracket as soon as the complaint is made and resolve that asap rather than use resources to run a bracket that might be worthless.
and the precedent for this in esports is that the tournament will just say fuck you to the people who lost to the rule breaker and continue from where they are. both MLG and WCS have had cheaters play and when they removed them they refused to replay the bracket, even though it was completely affected. so if scarlett wants to do right by the people who could lose to apoc, or anyone, then she needs to put her foot down, because history isnt on the players side.
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Can anyone explain the difference between General Admission and Floor Seating? Will I be doomed to stand the whole time if I get GA, or are there benefits to pay the extra money for Floor tickets ?
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On October 24 2013 23:28 turdburgler wrote:
in some peoples minds by going on to play the game she would be legitimizing the move (by apoc). if she really believed in her position they wouldnt play the game.
another reason they cant just play on and sort is later is because the more games that get played with 'rule breakers' in, the more work that needs to go in to fix it if scarlett is correct. so its in everyones best interest to just stop the bracket as soon as the complaint is made and resolve that asap rather than use resources to run a bracket that might be worthless.
and the precedent for this in esports is that the tournament will just say fuck you to the people who lost to the rule breaker and continue from where they are. both MLG and WCS have had cheaters play and when they removed them they refused to replay the bracket, even though it was completely affected. so if scarlett wants to do right by the people who could lose to apoc, or anyone, then she needs to put her foot down, because history isnt on the players side.
so true thats why I asked specifically about this in the first qualifier. And i was told he was eligible. I look forward to technically not being knocked out of qualifier #1 or #2, but they probably wont fix it if they decide to go back and reverse what I was told.
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On October 24 2013 23:28 turdburgler wrote:
in some peoples minds by going on to play the game she would be legitimizing the move (by apoc). if she really believed in her position they wouldnt play the game.
another reason they cant just play on and sort is later is because the more games that get played with 'rule breakers' in, the more work that needs to go in to fix it if scarlett is correct. so its in everyones best interest to just stop the bracket as soon as the complaint is made and resolve that asap rather than use resources to run a bracket that might be worthless.
and the precedent for this in esports is that the tournament will just say fuck you to the people who lost to the rule breaker and continue from where they are. both MLG and WCS have had cheaters play and when they removed them they refused to replay the bracket, even though it was completely affected. so if scarlett wants to do right by the people who could lose to apoc, or anyone, then she needs to put her foot down, because history isnt on the players side.
In summary, the entire top part of the bracket is invalidated by Apocalypse' participation if he is DQ'd (as he should be). Ideally the tournament organizers should've stopped this from happening and they did not.
For all the flames that have raged as a result of WCS not region locking, people are surprisingly quiet about an attempted region lock being circumvented.
It is disappointing that team managers aren't more vocal about this because it affects a lot more players than Scarlett.
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Grab your pitchforks! Unfortunately, I can't find my "made in china" pitchfork.
On a more serious note... If they allowed Apoc to play and did not disqualify him, I don't see what's the problem. Redbull may have made a mistake, but once you make the mistake, you should honor it. It's not fair to Apoc to disqualify him now... Scarlett shouldn't go apeshit either. She might be mad, but it is not HER tournament, it's up to Redbull to make a decision before she decides to take matters into her own hands. I think both them should be disqualified.
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France7248 Posts
you guys realize Apocalypse also played the first qualifier last Saturday? He only lost in the Ro16. 51 round before playing Scarlett if he had win)
he was already in the qualifier #2 the day before the Finals.
complaining about his participation before the finals was a bit late :/
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EPT
