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On October 04 2013 01:38 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 01:34 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 01:28 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 01:18 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote:
Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles. You're focusing too much on the current and present. Think about if you were to look back 10 years from now, and look at the entire picture, year by year, as opposed to month by month. Who was the best Terran in 2010 in Starcraft 2? It's hard to say, because few people can remember and there was no Terran champion back then (though plenty of Terran GSL finalists). We are talking about who is the best player, not the most accomplished. Nada was the most accomplished brood war player ever, together with flash. He is far from the best. The present is what matter when we are talking about best. Most accomplished is another matter. Scarlett is better than Jinro/Idra/Huk/etc ever were, even if she has less accomplishments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis)Read this article, it is quite insightful and pretty relevant to looking at Esports in the long run. Basically, we don't judge players by the standards (IE metagame in this case) of today, but of the standards (metagame) that they were active in.
Please don't insult me by linking wiki articles, I've read all that junk. It's nonsense, raw ability is not different because of meta game shifts. Every sports great from 30 years ago would be hopelessly inadequate today, even if they could adapt to modern playstyles(meta) because players are just better. I consider myself intelligent enough to distinguish when a player is clearly superior skill wise.
I simply disagree with you on to measure performance. I actually do judge players by modern standards. I don't think titles, especially old ones, are a good way, and I stand by that.
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On October 04 2013 01:48 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 01:38 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 01:34 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 01:28 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 01:18 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote:
[quote]
He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles. You're focusing too much on the current and present. Think about if you were to look back 10 years from now, and look at the entire picture, year by year, as opposed to month by month. Who was the best Terran in 2010 in Starcraft 2? It's hard to say, because few people can remember and there was no Terran champion back then (though plenty of Terran GSL finalists). We are talking about who is the best player, not the most accomplished. Nada was the most accomplished brood war player ever, together with flash. He is far from the best. The present is what matter when we are talking about best. Most accomplished is another matter. Scarlett is better than Jinro/Idra/Huk/etc ever were, even if she has less accomplishments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis)Read this article, it is quite insightful and pretty relevant to looking at Esports in the long run. Basically, we don't judge players by the standards (IE metagame in this case) of today, but of the standards (metagame) that they were active in. Please don't insult me by linking wiki articles, I've read all that junk. It's nonsense, raw ability is not different because of meta game shifts. Every sports great from 30 years ago would be hopelessly inadequate today, even if they could adapt to modern playstyles(meta) because players are just better. I consider myself intelligent enough to distinguish when a player is clearly superior skill wise. I simply disagree with you on to measure performance. I actually do judge players by modern standards. I don't think titles, especially old ones, are a good way, and I stand by that.
Sorry for insulting you with Wikipedia. That was really offensive of me 
Also, check this article out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronological_snobbery
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On October 04 2013 01:48 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 01:38 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 01:34 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 01:28 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 01:18 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote:
[quote]
He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles. You're focusing too much on the current and present. Think about if you were to look back 10 years from now, and look at the entire picture, year by year, as opposed to month by month. Who was the best Terran in 2010 in Starcraft 2? It's hard to say, because few people can remember and there was no Terran champion back then (though plenty of Terran GSL finalists). We are talking about who is the best player, not the most accomplished. Nada was the most accomplished brood war player ever, together with flash. He is far from the best. The present is what matter when we are talking about best. Most accomplished is another matter. Scarlett is better than Jinro/Idra/Huk/etc ever were, even if she has less accomplishments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis)Read this article, it is quite insightful and pretty relevant to looking at Esports in the long run. Basically, we don't judge players by the standards (IE metagame in this case) of today, but of the standards (metagame) that they were active in. Please don't insult me by linking wiki articles, I've read all that junk. It's nonsense, raw ability is not different because of meta game shifts. Every sports great from 30 years ago would be hopelessly inadequate today, even if they could adapt to modern playstyles(meta) because players are just better. I consider myself intelligent enough to distinguish when a player is clearly superior skill wise. I simply disagree with you on to measure performance. I actually do judge players by modern standards. I don't think titles, especially old ones, are a good way, and I stand by that.
Going by logic everyone with an 2600+Elo is a better chess player than Philidor or Steinitz. Going by your logic every Code S zerg now (hyvaa, TRUE, etc.) is better than Fruitdealer.
Ofc. sports evolve, but that is just one more reason, to see stuff in relation. If you could sent Wladimir Klitschko back in time in his current state, he would destroy Joe Louis or George Foreman, but that does not change anything about their deserved legendary status.
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On October 04 2013 01:57 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 01:48 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 01:38 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 01:34 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 01:28 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 01:18 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote:
[quote]
Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles. You're focusing too much on the current and present. Think about if you were to look back 10 years from now, and look at the entire picture, year by year, as opposed to month by month. Who was the best Terran in 2010 in Starcraft 2? It's hard to say, because few people can remember and there was no Terran champion back then (though plenty of Terran GSL finalists). We are talking about who is the best player, not the most accomplished. Nada was the most accomplished brood war player ever, together with flash. He is far from the best. The present is what matter when we are talking about best. Most accomplished is another matter. Scarlett is better than Jinro/Idra/Huk/etc ever were, even if she has less accomplishments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis)Read this article, it is quite insightful and pretty relevant to looking at Esports in the long run. Basically, we don't judge players by the standards (IE metagame in this case) of today, but of the standards (metagame) that they were active in. Please don't insult me by linking wiki articles, I've read all that junk. It's nonsense, raw ability is not different because of meta game shifts. Every sports great from 30 years ago would be hopelessly inadequate today, even if they could adapt to modern playstyles(meta) because players are just better. I consider myself intelligent enough to distinguish when a player is clearly superior skill wise. I simply disagree with you on to measure performance. I actually do judge players by modern standards. I don't think titles, especially old ones, are a good way, and I stand by that. Sorry for insulting you with Wikipedia. That was really offensive of me Also, check this article out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronological_snobbery
It's pleasantly surprising, though humbling as well, to read about the ancient Greeks and find out they were just as smart as us. You could give Plato or Aristotle a primer on the 21st century and they'd be great men in this day.
More importantly, I hope Nerchio enjoyed his after dinner snack of Hero and Taeja before getting indigestion from TLO.
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On October 04 2013 02:37 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 01:48 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 01:38 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 01:34 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 01:28 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 01:18 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote:
[quote]
Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles. You're focusing too much on the current and present. Think about if you were to look back 10 years from now, and look at the entire picture, year by year, as opposed to month by month. Who was the best Terran in 2010 in Starcraft 2? It's hard to say, because few people can remember and there was no Terran champion back then (though plenty of Terran GSL finalists). We are talking about who is the best player, not the most accomplished. Nada was the most accomplished brood war player ever, together with flash. He is far from the best. The present is what matter when we are talking about best. Most accomplished is another matter. Scarlett is better than Jinro/Idra/Huk/etc ever were, even if she has less accomplishments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis)Read this article, it is quite insightful and pretty relevant to looking at Esports in the long run. Basically, we don't judge players by the standards (IE metagame in this case) of today, but of the standards (metagame) that they were active in. Please don't insult me by linking wiki articles, I've read all that junk. It's nonsense, raw ability is not different because of meta game shifts. Every sports great from 30 years ago would be hopelessly inadequate today, even if they could adapt to modern playstyles(meta) because players are just better. I consider myself intelligent enough to distinguish when a player is clearly superior skill wise. I simply disagree with you on to measure performance. I actually do judge players by modern standards. I don't think titles, especially old ones, are a good way, and I stand by that. Going by logic everyone with an 2600+Elo is a better chess player than Philidor or Steinitz. Going by your logic every Code S zerg now (hyvaa, TRUE, etc.) is better than Fruitdealer.Ofc. sports evolve, but that is just one more reason, to see stuff in relation. If you could sent Wladimir Klitschko back in time in his current state, he would destroy Joe Louis or George Foreman, but that does not change anything about their deserved legendary status.
Uh, they are? Kind of the point
Never said anything about legacy, I was talking only about pure ability. I agree about that point, never disputed it to begin with. Nada is a legend and a hero. He would still have gotten murked by any top 10 player in 2010.
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On October 04 2013 02:41 Ansinjunger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 01:57 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 01:48 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 01:38 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 01:34 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 01:28 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 01:18 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote:
[quote]
Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles. You're focusing too much on the current and present. Think about if you were to look back 10 years from now, and look at the entire picture, year by year, as opposed to month by month. Who was the best Terran in 2010 in Starcraft 2? It's hard to say, because few people can remember and there was no Terran champion back then (though plenty of Terran GSL finalists). We are talking about who is the best player, not the most accomplished. Nada was the most accomplished brood war player ever, together with flash. He is far from the best. The present is what matter when we are talking about best. Most accomplished is another matter. Scarlett is better than Jinro/Idra/Huk/etc ever were, even if she has less accomplishments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis)Read this article, it is quite insightful and pretty relevant to looking at Esports in the long run. Basically, we don't judge players by the standards (IE metagame in this case) of today, but of the standards (metagame) that they were active in. Please don't insult me by linking wiki articles, I've read all that junk. It's nonsense, raw ability is not different because of meta game shifts. Every sports great from 30 years ago would be hopelessly inadequate today, even if they could adapt to modern playstyles(meta) because players are just better. I consider myself intelligent enough to distinguish when a player is clearly superior skill wise. I simply disagree with you on to measure performance. I actually do judge players by modern standards. I don't think titles, especially old ones, are a good way, and I stand by that. Sorry for insulting you with Wikipedia. That was really offensive of me Also, check this article out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronological_snobbery It's pleasantly surprising, though humbling as well, to read about the ancient Greeks and find out they were just as smart as us. You could give Plato or Aristotle a primer on the 21st century and they'd be great men in this day. More importantly, I hope Nerchio enjoyed his after dinner snack of Hero and Taeja before getting indigestion from TLO.
Nerchio really put on his big boy pants for this one! Way to go Nerch!
Really impressive that Acer was able to win this without Innovation or Scarlett - really scary for a teamleague when they use everyone.
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EPT
