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I wonder when the offline finals will be, with HSC being announced to be November 14-17.
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On October 04 2013 00:57 Musicus wrote:
I wonder when the offline finals will be, with HSC being announced to be November 14-17.
wow did they announce HSC VIII ? awesome! (totally missed that)
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On October 04 2013 00:56 ratbert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 00:51 Aunvilgod wrote:On October 04 2013 00:35 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote:
Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Maybe, but she has yet to match his achievements. Achievements during BL-Infestor can be disregarded. because there weren't other zergs in these tournaments who had the same tools to win, right? -.-
Because how good you are at Roach vs Roach ZvZ doesn't say a lot about your overall skill. ZvZ was not a very diverse matchup.
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On October 04 2013 00:56 liberate71 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote:
Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. Jim(bo Jones)!
Jim yes(took me a while to figure that out). He is very good, the best in China probably, but I haven't seen him make the same splash yet. His visa issues aren't helping though.
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On October 04 2013 00:57 AlternativeEgo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 00:53 739 wrote:
lol Nerchio won both TaeJa and HerO, woot. Yeah. He came home from school, put his backpack on the bed, started up his sc2 client, slayed two fierce Koreans and proceeded to take care of his homework. Just another day for the Nerchio.
Actually that's exactly what happened, I came and didn't want to play right away so we used ParanOid and then me while I was eating dinner. ezpz.
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On October 04 2013 01:00 Aunvilgod wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 00:56 ratbert wrote:On October 04 2013 00:51 Aunvilgod wrote:On October 04 2013 00:35 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote:
Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Maybe, but she has yet to match his achievements. Achievements during BL-Infestor can be disregarded. because there weren't other zergs in these tournaments who had the same tools to win, right? -.- Because how good you are at Roach vs Roach ZvZ doesn't say a lot about your overall skill. ZvZ was not a very diverse matchup.
achievements during BL-infestor can't be disregarded. all i'm saying 
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
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On October 04 2013 00:57 Musicus wrote:
I wonder when the offline finals will be, with HSC being announced to be November 14-17.
Hmm, looks like a combined event. Maybe a week short of that but one could work on that.
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Who needs Innovation or Scarlett anyway
GG Acer, important match to win! The rivalry continues
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On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote:
Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime.
"Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg".
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Wow, didn't think they could take Team Liquid down but they actually did it! And without Scarlett or Innovation!
Gogo Acer! Gotta love that MMA clinch. Kinda surprised Nerchio took out Taeja though.
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I'd like to give a props to MLG for streaming this,since they don't do big LANs anymore it would be very cool if they kept streaming all of those online events since i know a lot of time they lack of english casters.
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On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote:
Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg".
Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong.
I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles.
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The MLG stream was very cool indeed. ATC is a fun tournament but last season they were really hurting for English broadcasters. Hope MLG and ATC keep this up.
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Wowowowow, Nerchio and MMA! Too bad I missed the series. 
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On October 04 2013 01:18 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote:
Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles.
You're focusing too much on the current and present. Think about if you were to look back 10 years from now, and look at the entire picture, year by year, as opposed to month by month. Who was the best Terran in 2010 in Starcraft 2? It's hard to say, because few people can remember and there was no Terran champion back then (though plenty of Terran GSL finalists).
That's why getting those big tournament wins are so important. They cement the legacy. Nerchio has done that to a certain extent, and is highly accomplished in this way among foreign Zergs. Scarlett still has a way to go in terms of getting those big wins.
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On October 04 2013 01:28 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 01:18 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote:
Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles. You're focusing too much on the current and present. Think about if you were to look back 10 years from now, and look at the entire picture, year by year, as opposed to month by month. Who was the best Terran in 2010 in Starcraft 2? It's hard to say, because few people can remember and there was no Terran champion back then (though plenty of Terran GSL finalists).
We are talking about who is the best player, not the most accomplished. Nada was the most accomplished brood war player ever, together with flash. He is far from the best.
The present is what matter when we are talking about best. Most accomplished is another matter. Scarlett is better than Jinro/Idra/Huk/etc ever were, even if she has less accomplishments.
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Damn, Nerchio sure pulled some insane amount of weight. Taking out TaeJa and HerO.
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On October 04 2013 01:34 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 01:28 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 01:18 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote:On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote:On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote:On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote:
Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles. You're focusing too much on the current and present. Think about if you were to look back 10 years from now, and look at the entire picture, year by year, as opposed to month by month. Who was the best Terran in 2010 in Starcraft 2? It's hard to say, because few people can remember and there was no Terran champion back then (though plenty of Terran GSL finalists). We are talking about who is the best player, not the most accomplished. Nada was the most accomplished brood war player ever, together with flash. He is far from the best. The present is what matter when we are talking about best. Most accomplished is another matter. Scarlett is better than Jinro/Idra/Huk/etc ever were, even if she has less accomplishments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis)
Read this article, it is quite insightful and pretty relevant to looking at Esports in the long run. Basically, we don't judge players by the standards (IE metagame in this case) of today, but of the standards (metagame) that they were active in.
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EPT
