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+ Show Spoiler [Overall Results] +
* = ace. Last player on team can be chosen from the entire lineup, even if the player was eliminated before.
Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments |
Aeromi
France14446 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [Spoiler-Free] + + Show Spoiler [Overall Results] + * = ace. Last player on team can be chosen from the entire lineup, even if the player was eliminated before. | ||
Aeromi
France14446 Posts
Poll: Head Acer (20) Team Liquid (12) 32 total votes Your vote: Head | ||
Popkiller
3415 Posts
Go Acer! | ||
Aeromi
France14446 Posts
On October 03 2013 03:57 Popkiller wrote: Date says Sunday, March 10th. Go Acer! Thanks, I forget how to read. | ||
JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
Anyways, rooting for Acer, hope they manage to take it! | ||
GumBa
United Kingdom31934 Posts
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Olli
Austria24413 Posts
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SinCitta
Germany2127 Posts
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Nomzter
Sweden2802 Posts
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
Stream link for OP: http://www.twitch.tv/mlgsc2 | ||
Aeromi
France14446 Posts
On October 03 2013 21:08 NovemberstOrm wrote: MLG/Axslav will be casting this Stream link for OP: http://www.twitch.tv/mlgsc2 Thanks. | ||
NovaMB
Germany9534 Posts
Should be a great match, I guess Acer has to try to beat TaeJa twice with their Zergs or maybe MMA, while TL has to save TaeJa to snipe Innovation. And I hope Scarlett is playing today | ||
ETisME
12072 Posts
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TAMinator
Australia2706 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40169 Posts
On October 03 2013 21:16 ETisME wrote: so it's basically innovation all kill vs taeja all kill Innovation + MMA all kill vs TaeJa all kill, do not fool yourself. Granted, if Inno and MMA still suck at TvT, it is TaeJa all kill for sure. | ||
SinCitta
Germany2127 Posts
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Aeromi
France14446 Posts
On October 03 2013 22:06 SinCitta wrote: Just tuned in, did TaKe just say that it's Axiom vs Millenium next? Not Axiom vs WW? TakeTV's facebook said it will be Axiom vs Millenium but MilleniumTv's schedule said Axiom vs WW. | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
On October 03 2013 21:16 ETisME wrote: so it's basically innovation all kill vs taeja all kill HerO can definitely beat both in a Bo1 | ||
Aeromi
France14446 Posts
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On October 03 2013 21:16 ETisME wrote: so it's basically innovation all kill vs taeja all kill Scarlett has beaten Taeja before and has sick TvZ. Rustiness is an issue but still. | ||
MavivaM
1535 Posts
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Ketch
Netherlands7285 Posts
On October 03 2013 22:18 MavivaM wrote: Ret defense looks so refined. Yeah? Why is he not walling of? Or am I romanian here? | ||
Undead1993
Germany17651 Posts
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On October 03 2013 22:20 Ketch wrote: Yeah? Why is he not walling of? Or am I romanian here? No dude you're from the Netherlands. Ret on sub 30 drones, needs to win here basically. | ||
MavivaM
1535 Posts
On October 03 2013 22:20 Ketch wrote: Yeah? Why is he not walling of? Or am I romanian here? I was refering to his natural, when dealing with ling bane: just the right amount of roaches, even between the spots on the mineral line. After the muta switch, it doesn't look like that anymore. But before of that... I feel like I learnt something when going roaches in ZvZ! | ||
Ketch
Netherlands7285 Posts
On October 03 2013 22:23 MavivaM wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 22:20 Ketch wrote: On October 03 2013 22:18 MavivaM wrote: Ret defense looks so refined. Yeah? Why is he not walling of? Or am I romanian here? I was refering to his natural, when dealing with ling bane: just the right amount of roaches, even between the spots on the mineral line. After the muta switch, it doesn't look like that anymore. But before of that... I feel like I learnt something when going roaches in ZvZ! mmm ok ^^, the defense was ok, but with some buildings to wall, he could have threatened a move out, now everything was way too open, and he gave away map control completely | ||
MavivaM
1535 Posts
Still, a good game imo. | ||
Undead1993
Germany17651 Posts
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shid0x
Korea (South)5014 Posts
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CrazyBirdman
Germany3509 Posts
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NateTron
United States31 Posts
He needed to get something done with them other than sit in his base waiting around. | ||
Aeromi
France14446 Posts
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Ketch
Netherlands7285 Posts
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ClairvoyanceSC2
United States758 Posts
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Aeromi
France14446 Posts
On October 03 2013 22:36 ClairvoyanceSC2 wrote: inb4 all in You have a great name. | ||
MavivaM
1535 Posts
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
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CrazyBirdman
Germany3509 Posts
On October 03 2013 22:42 MavivaM wrote: It has been a while since I had he opportunity to see my favourite terran... I hope I don't curse him Looking good so far! | ||
MavivaM
1535 Posts
On October 03 2013 22:43 CrazyBirdman wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 22:42 MavivaM wrote: It has been a while since I had he opportunity to see my favourite terran... I hope I don't curse him Looking good so far! Fuck yeah. | ||
Aeromi
France14446 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40169 Posts
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Olli
Austria24413 Posts
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NateTron
United States31 Posts
On October 03 2013 22:58 DarkLordOlli wrote: Taeja's TvZ is supposedly his weakest matchup... although I guess he said he's regained a lot of his confidence in it so there may not be a real weakness in his game atm Taeja's weakest matchup is over 2000 on Aligulac :p | ||
lolfail9001
Russian Federation40169 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40169 Posts
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Olli
Austria24413 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40169 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:05 DarkLordOlli wrote: Preparing for new patch Pfft, he would have went widow mines into tanks then. Or tanks into widow mines on second factory. | ||
Amestir
Netherlands2126 Posts
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b0ub0u
Canada445 Posts
There is a huge skill difference between Taeja and most of these players. | ||
lolfail9001
Russian Federation40169 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:05 Amestir wrote: Paranoid should have just gone for the fight. His army was quite big, I think he could have killed Teaja's army quite easy. Yeah, with so many banes he would probably either force TaeJa into some ridiculous MKP mode or just kill him right there. But tbh, he brain-farted by seeing tanks there IMO (not to offend or anything, just i think it was not intentional to engage like this). | ||
Aeromi
France14446 Posts
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trebbor
Netherlands35 Posts
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sudete
Singapore3040 Posts
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Undead1993
Germany17651 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:09 Aeromi wrote: Nerchio next. feed him with these zergs <3 | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
I could see an all in from Nerchio to force the issue | ||
CrazyBirdman
Germany3509 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:12 DarkLordOlli wrote: They're trying really hard to guard Innovation against Taeja I could see an all in from Nerchio to force the issue The problem is, they still have to deal with him in the ace-match. But lets see first if Nerchio can do something against TaeJa. | ||
Acer.ParanOid
Poland133 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:05 Amestir wrote: Paranoid should have just gone for the fight. His army was quite big, I think he could have killed Teaja's army quite easy. Prolly, if I only wasnt lagging. I was there to buy the time for Nerchio who came back from university very recently. | ||
Yhamm
France7248 Posts
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BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:12 DarkLordOlli wrote: They're trying really hard to guard Innovation against Taeja I could see an all in from Nerchio to force the issue Innovation has been training TvT the last weeks and is now better than Taeja and Bomber combined and destroys Taeja. he then will loose to zenio in ZvT. Thats the way its going to play out clearly | ||
Aeromi
France14446 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:14 Yhamm wrote: really long downtime today... Yeah, it's very annoying... | ||
Kaoru
France150 Posts
Scarlett & Innovation are not available for this Match, personal issues happened. Zerg Line-up vs TeamTaeja. | ||
Amestir
Netherlands2126 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:14 Acer.ParanOid wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:05 Amestir wrote: Paranoid should have just gone for the fight. His army was quite big, I think he could have killed Teaja's army quite easy. Prolly, if I only wasnt lagging. I was there to buy the time for Nerchio who came back from university very recently. Ty for the reply. Didn't mean to critisize you, it's easy to see what to do with all information | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
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NovaMB
Germany9534 Posts
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Aeromi
France14446 Posts
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Olli
Austria24413 Posts
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Aeromi
France14446 Posts
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GumBa
United Kingdom31934 Posts
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
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BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
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NovaMB
Germany9534 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:25 NovemberstOrm wrote: what did nerchio do? fast muta build? 2 Hatch Muta without Ling speed or baneling nest | ||
CrazyBirdman
Germany3509 Posts
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Olli
Austria24413 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:25 NovemberstOrm wrote: what did nerchio do? fast muta build? Yeah, two base muta before any other tech, even before speed | ||
sudete
Singapore3040 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:26 CrazyBirdman wrote: So, what is TaeJa is still doing in this game, waiting for the biggest throw in history? I'm guessing he's hoping that Nerchio somehow sends all his mutas into 2 widow mines haha | ||
Yhamm
France7248 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:17 Kaoru wrote: FYI, Scarlett & Innovation are not available for this Match, personal issues happened. Zerg Line-up vs TeamTaeja. what about MMA? | ||
Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
edit: Ok so Acer are missing their best players, well that kind of sucks | ||
BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:28 Squat wrote: Taeja down with Nerchion playing, Innovation still in the pool, and possibly Scarlett as well. Looking good for Acer I'd say. inno and Scarlett arent available | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:28 BlackCompany wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:28 Squat wrote: Taeja down with Nerchion playing, Innovation still in the pool, and possibly Scarlett as well. Looking good for Acer I'd say. inno and Scarlett arent available Oh, in that case just send HerO and revive him until he beats everyone | ||
NovaMB
Germany9534 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:28 Squat wrote: Taeja down with Nerchion playing, Innovation still in the pool, and possibly Scarlett as well. Looking good for Acer I'd say. On October 03 2013 23:17 Kaoru wrote: FYI, Scarlett & Innovation are not available for this Match, personal issues happened. Zerg Line-up vs TeamTaeja. Only the EU Zergs. I guess HerO next, unless they want a ZvZ, | ||
NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
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BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: Either Snute or HerO I think Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:28 BlackCompany wrote: On October 03 2013 23:28 Squat wrote: Taeja down with Nerchion playing, Innovation still in the pool, and possibly Scarlett as well. Looking good for Acer I'd say. inno and Scarlett arent available Oh, in that case just send HerO and revive him until he beats everyone I dont know if MMA is there, hes scary vs Toss. Otherwise that sounds like a good plan Never thought i would say MMa is amazing vs protoss, times change i guess! | ||
Aeromi
France14446 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:30 NovemberstOrm wrote: HerO next Thanks. | ||
Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
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sudete
Singapore3040 Posts
edit: oh MMA is available nvm | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:30 BlackCompany wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: Either Snute or HerO I think On October 03 2013 23:28 BlackCompany wrote: On October 03 2013 23:28 Squat wrote: Taeja down with Nerchion playing, Innovation still in the pool, and possibly Scarlett as well. Looking good for Acer I'd say. inno and Scarlett arent available Oh, in that case just send HerO and revive him until he beats everyone I dont know if MMA is there, hes scary vs Toss. Otherwise that sounds like a good plan Never thought i would say MMa is amazing vs protoss, times change i guess! I still don't entirely believe that MMA is great vs protoss. Against EU protoss and duckdeok whose worst matchup by far has always been vT, he looks dominant. But I count HerO as the favorite, especially since he said he's now heavily focusing his practice on PvT. Kid is scary when he does that. I hope HerO brings his stargate into templar style he used against Maru (if he plays MMA). Not only did he totally destroy Maru with it, it's also super fun to watch. He continually picks off medivacs, forces stims to reduce energy so when storms hit they just clean up entire armies and then transitions into triple robo colossus. Is madness. | ||
BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:33 DarkLordOlli wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:30 BlackCompany wrote: On October 03 2013 23:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: Either Snute or HerO I think On October 03 2013 23:28 BlackCompany wrote: On October 03 2013 23:28 Squat wrote: Taeja down with Nerchion playing, Innovation still in the pool, and possibly Scarlett as well. Looking good for Acer I'd say. inno and Scarlett arent available Oh, in that case just send HerO and revive him until he beats everyone I dont know if MMA is there, hes scary vs Toss. Otherwise that sounds like a good plan Never thought i would say MMa is amazing vs protoss, times change i guess! I still don't entirely believe that MMA is great vs protoss. Against EU protoss and duckdeok whose worst matchup by far has always been vT, he looks dominant. But I count HerO as the favorite, especially since he said he's now heavily focusing his practice on PvT. Kid is scary when he does that. I hope we gotta see that matchup later on, but a 1on1 wont be enough to judge that^^ I hope MMA goes to Season finals, then we might see how good he truly is | ||
NateTron
United States31 Posts
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Undead1993
Germany17651 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:35 NateTron wrote: I just cant imagine losing to Nerchio i guess he neither could have imagine losing to targa back then :D but no i am clearly rooting for hero here! | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
Nerchio is in like, every trouble. Until that roach warren and spore went down. That's good for Nerchio | ||
NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
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BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:40 NovemberstOrm wrote: oh this build It needs more DTs. Much much more DTs Hero played too many 4v4s, thats where you go DT into Voidrays into more Voidrays | ||
CrazyBirdman
Germany3509 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:40 BlackCompany wrote: It needs more DTs. Much much more DTs Hero played too many 4v4s, thats where you go DT into Voidrays into more Voidrays Every build needs more DTs. | ||
BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
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Undead1993
Germany17651 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:44 BlackCompany wrote: Everytime i watch Protoss go basicly only units that are tier 3 they die to roach/hydra how are vrs and zealots tier 3? | ||
NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
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Yhamm
France7248 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:35 NateTron wrote: I just cant imagine losing to Nerchio TaeJa didn't either, still he beat both of them | ||
BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:45 Undead1993 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:44 BlackCompany wrote: Everytime i watch Protoss go basicly only units that are tier 3 they die to roach/hydra how are vrs and zealots tier 3? I somehow counted Voidrays as T3, my bad. But Templar, DT, voidray zealot.. you get my point^^ | ||
NovaMB
Germany9534 Posts
E: Guess not | ||
Topin
Peru9937 Posts
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
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Nerchio
Poland2633 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:47 NovaMB wrote: Nerchio needs a 4th and 5th base I feel. Or atleast get them while HerO is scared to move out I need hero to leave the game because it was over after the first attack | ||
Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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Schroedinger
Germany80 Posts
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Aeromi
France14446 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:48 Nerchio wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:47 NovaMB wrote: Nerchio needs a 4th and 5th base I feel. Or atleast get them while HerO is scared to move out I need hero to leave the game because it was over after the first attack Rofl. | ||
Undead1993
Germany17651 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:47 BlackCompany wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:45 Undead1993 wrote: On October 03 2013 23:44 BlackCompany wrote: Everytime i watch Protoss go basicly only units that are tier 3 they die to roach/hydra how are vrs and zealots tier 3? I somehow counted Voidrays as T3, my bad. But Templar, DT, voidray zealot.. you get my point^^ well he basically died before getting templars and dts suck in a direct engagement so no i don't get your point. nerchio hit a timing right before t3 and therefore deserved to win here | ||
Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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sudete
Singapore3040 Posts
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NovaMB
Germany9534 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:48 Nerchio wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:47 NovaMB wrote: Nerchio needs a 4th and 5th base I feel. Or atleast get them while HerO is scared to move out I need hero to leave the game because it was over after the first attack Fair point. | ||
Crot4le
England2927 Posts
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Olli
Austria24413 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:48 Nerchio wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:47 NovaMB wrote: Nerchio needs a 4th and 5th base I feel. Or atleast get them while HerO is scared to move out I need hero to leave the game because it was over after the first attack It was over after you got a perfect build counter | ||
XtreMe_au
Australia412 Posts
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BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:49 Undead1993 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:47 BlackCompany wrote: On October 03 2013 23:45 Undead1993 wrote: On October 03 2013 23:44 BlackCompany wrote: Everytime i watch Protoss go basicly only units that are tier 3 they die to roach/hydra how are vrs and zealots tier 3? I somehow counted Voidrays as T3, my bad. But Templar, DT, voidray zealot.. you get my point^^ well he basically died before getting templars and dts suck in a direct engagement so no i don't get your point. nerchio hit a timing right before t3 and therefore deserved to win here can you point out where i said Nerchio didnt deserve the win..? Of course he deserved the win, still i dislike the games where Toss basicly only goes expensive units and has 130 supply when Zergs are maxed. Oh TLO next, Whats the head to head, like 121352353 - 2 for Nerchio? he has TLOs number for sure^^ | ||
Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:50 DarkLordOlli wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:48 Nerchio wrote: On October 03 2013 23:47 NovaMB wrote: Nerchio needs a 4th and 5th base I feel. Or atleast get them while HerO is scared to move out I need hero to leave the game because it was over after the first attack It was over after you got a perfect build counter Lol :p | ||
Nerchio
Poland2633 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:50 DarkLordOlli wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:48 Nerchio wrote: On October 03 2013 23:47 NovaMB wrote: Nerchio needs a 4th and 5th base I feel. Or atleast get them while HerO is scared to move out I need hero to leave the game because it was over after the first attack It was over after you got a perfect build counter Fanboy detected :D | ||
75
Germany4057 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:52 Nerchio wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:50 DarkLordOlli wrote: On October 03 2013 23:48 Nerchio wrote: On October 03 2013 23:47 NovaMB wrote: Nerchio needs a 4th and 5th base I feel. Or atleast get them while HerO is scared to move out I need hero to leave the game because it was over after the first attack It was over after you got a perfect build counter Fanboy detected :D Nerchio fanboy detected | ||
Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:50 DarkLordOlli wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:48 Nerchio wrote: On October 03 2013 23:47 NovaMB wrote: Nerchio needs a 4th and 5th base I feel. Or atleast get them while HerO is scared to move out I need hero to leave the game because it was over after the first attack It was over after you got a perfect build counter Going DTs is risky, it's always a calculated gamble. Hero can only blame himself for that. | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:52 Nerchio wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:50 DarkLordOlli wrote: On October 03 2013 23:48 Nerchio wrote: On October 03 2013 23:47 NovaMB wrote: Nerchio needs a 4th and 5th base I feel. Or atleast get them while HerO is scared to move out I need hero to leave the game because it was over after the first attack It was over after you got a perfect build counter Fanboy detected :D Oh it wasn't meant like that. You played it out well from there and deserved the win. It just was the perfect counter build | ||
jeeneeus
1168 Posts
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:55 DarkLordOlli wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:52 Nerchio wrote: On October 03 2013 23:50 DarkLordOlli wrote: On October 03 2013 23:48 Nerchio wrote: On October 03 2013 23:47 NovaMB wrote: Nerchio needs a 4th and 5th base I feel. Or atleast get them while HerO is scared to move out I need hero to leave the game because it was over after the first attack It was over after you got a perfect build counter Fanboy detected :D Oh it wasn't meant like that. You played it out well from there and deserved the win. It just was the perfect counter build Hero had a really good advantage with the first air push that he did towards the main. Nerchio was really caught by surprise, and the spores weren't quite up yet. But the roach runby that forced the recall was huge, as it bought Nerchio so much more time to prepare. | ||
SChlafmann
France725 Posts
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CrazyBirdman
Germany3509 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:55 DarkLordOlli wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:52 Nerchio wrote: On October 03 2013 23:50 DarkLordOlli wrote: On October 03 2013 23:48 Nerchio wrote: On October 03 2013 23:47 NovaMB wrote: Nerchio needs a 4th and 5th base I feel. Or atleast get them while HerO is scared to move out I need hero to leave the game because it was over after the first attack It was over after you got a perfect build counter Fanboy detected :D Oh it wasn't meant like that. You played it out well from there and deserved the win. It just was the perfect counter build Don't worry, nobody would ever think you could be a HerO fanboy. | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
On October 03 2013 23:58 Bagration wrote: Show nested quote + On October 03 2013 23:55 DarkLordOlli wrote: On October 03 2013 23:52 Nerchio wrote: On October 03 2013 23:50 DarkLordOlli wrote: On October 03 2013 23:48 Nerchio wrote: On October 03 2013 23:47 NovaMB wrote: Nerchio needs a 4th and 5th base I feel. Or atleast get them while HerO is scared to move out I need hero to leave the game because it was over after the first attack It was over after you got a perfect build counter Fanboy detected :D Oh it wasn't meant like that. You played it out well from there and deserved the win. It just was the perfect counter build Hero had a really good advantage with the first air push that he did towards the main. Nerchio was really caught by surprise, and the spores weren't quite up yet. But the roach runby that forced the recall was huge, as it bought Nerchio so much more time to prepare. That was already a desperation move by HerO thiugh to get back in the game, not because he had an advantage. Nerchio did the smart thing to attack though | ||
BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
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CrazyBirdman
Germany3509 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:02 FeyFey wrote: And I thought TLO was still on EG. EG-TL partnership renewed for ATC. | ||
b0ub0u
Canada445 Posts
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
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sudete
Singapore3040 Posts
edit: Nerchio said something along the lines of "you need to send more foreigners against me", haha | ||
75
Germany4057 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:03 b0ub0u wrote: What did Nerchio said before he GGed? that they should send more foreigners out against him | ||
Yhamm
France7248 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:03 b0ub0u wrote: What did Nerchio said before he GGed? "you need to send more foreigners vs me xD" and then "gg" | ||
capiston
France372 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:03 b0ub0u wrote: What did Nerchio said before he GGed? "you need to send more foreigners vs me xD" | ||
Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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Aeromi
France14446 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:05 Bagration wrote: So Innovation is unavailable? Scarlett too. | ||
AlternativeEgo
Sweden17309 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23567 Posts
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metroid composite
Canada231 Posts
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Undead1993
Germany17651 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:09 metroid composite wrote: Ok, I was seriously impressed by TLO this game. Often when I watch ZvZ I'm like "yeah, whatever, I do that, just with slower reactions and worse injects at home." But this game I was like "what is this sorcery????" ling bane is always sick to watch! much better than these max out roach timings in my opinion | ||
BIRDKNIFE
United States73 Posts
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Undead1993
Germany17651 Posts
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liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
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75
Germany4057 Posts
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rave[wcr]
United States1166 Posts
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liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:18 rave[wcr] wrote: cant see anything on twitch either.. can watch youtube and forgg's stream just fine too. anyone know what the problem is? Mines working now after a refresh | ||
ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
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rave[wcr]
United States1166 Posts
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:18 rave[wcr] wrote: cant see anything on twitch either.. can watch youtube and forgg's stream just fine too. anyone know what the problem is? some other people had this issue, much be twitch wide. | ||
sudete
Singapore3040 Posts
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
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Aeromi
France14446 Posts
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BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
His gameplan seems really indecisive, like hes not sure what to do | ||
ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
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sudete
Singapore3040 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:26 Aeromi wrote: FInally, a Terran ( except Innovation ) is able to launch the mine upgrade before 3-3. and guess which team he plays for | ||
Yhamm
France7248 Posts
taketv: i keep saying its millenium taketv: but its western wolves taketv: playing» :D | ||
75
Germany4057 Posts
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Aeromi
France14446 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:30 sudete wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:26 Aeromi wrote: FInally, a Terran ( except Innovation ) is able to launch the mine upgrade before 3-3. and guess which team he plays for True story. | ||
metroid composite
Canada231 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:27 BlackCompany wrote: TLO 30 supply down without any real fights.. His gameplan seems really indecisive, like hes not sure what to do He made a bunch of static defence early on. which looked brilliant when he fended off the hellions with no damage, but in reality I think he was just killing himself. Spine crawer is kinda hardcountered by fast third CC. | ||
Darkhorse
United States23454 Posts
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. | ||
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Darkhorse
United States23454 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. | ||
Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Maybe, but she has yet to match his achievements. | ||
Aeromi
France14446 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:35 Bagration wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Maybe, but she has yet to match his achievements. WCS NA in 2012, RO4 WCS NA season 2 and RO8 season 2 finals. | ||
Darkhorse
United States23454 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:35 Bagration wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Maybe, but she has yet to match his achievements. Nerchio seems pretty inconsistent. Sometimes he seems like a guy who can compete with Koreans regularly and sometimes he seems like an average foreigner who goes on twitter to bitch about Protoss. | ||
Darkhorse
United States23454 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:36 Aeromi wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:35 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Maybe, but she has yet to match his achievements. WCS NA in 2012, RO4 WCS NA season 2 and RO8 season 2 finals. He has a point as far as complete SC2 history. Nerchio won a DH, HSC, and was a runner up at IPL 2 and IEM Cologne. | ||
Aeromi
France14446 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:38 Darkhoarse wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:36 Aeromi wrote: On October 04 2013 00:35 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Maybe, but she has yet to match his achievements. WCS NA in 2012, RO4 WCS NA season 2 and RO8 season 2 finals. He has a point as far as complete SC2 history. Nerchio won a DH, HSC, and was a runner up at IPL 3 and IEM Cologne. I don't say that Nerchio is a bad player, I just want to show that Scarlett has good results. | ||
Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:36 Aeromi wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:35 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Maybe, but she has yet to match his achievements. WCS NA in 2012, RO4 WCS NA season 2 and RO8 season 2 finals. I'm talking about Premier tournament wins. Nerchio won 2 Premier tournaments (Homestory Cup, and Dreamhack Bucharest) and made it to the finals of another one (IEM Cologne). Yes, they aren't very recent, but I was talking more about legacy as opposed to current skill. If we talk about current skill, Idra and Stephano are sadly irrelevant. | ||
Xoronius
Germany6362 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. | ||
Darkhorse
United States23454 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:39 Bagration wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:36 Aeromi wrote: On October 04 2013 00:35 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Maybe, but she has yet to match his achievements. WCS NA in 2012, RO4 WCS NA season 2 and RO8 season 2 finals. I'm talking about Premier tournament wins. Nerchio won 2 Premier tournaments (Homestory Cup, and Dreamhack Bucharest) and made it to the finals of another one (IEM Cologne). Yes, they aren't very recent, but I was talking more about legacy as opposed to current skill. If we talk about current skill, Idra and Stephano are sadly irrelevant. Worth noting that DH Bucharest of 2012 had pretty much the lowest Korean presence of any DH (and Nerchio did not play a single one!) and his HSC run wasn't spectacular. | ||
Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:39 Aeromi wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:38 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:36 Aeromi wrote: On October 04 2013 00:35 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Maybe, but she has yet to match his achievements. WCS NA in 2012, RO4 WCS NA season 2 and RO8 season 2 finals. He has a point as far as complete SC2 history. Nerchio won a DH, HSC, and was a runner up at IPL 3 and IEM Cologne. I don't say that Nerchio is a bad player, I just want to show that Scarlett has good results. I think she has a very good claim to the title of best foreign Zerg right now, if not the title of best foreign player. Let's see how her WCS run this season goes. | ||
Aeromi
France14446 Posts
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BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
Wped Acer, MMA still got it | ||
Darkhorse
United States23454 Posts
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sudete
Singapore3040 Posts
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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ratbert
Germany1041 Posts
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Darkhorse
United States23454 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:45 Bagration wrote: GG Liquid. It's strange how Acer does better against Liquid when they don't use Innovation :p To be fair in the live setting Taeja demolished MMA as well | ||
ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:46 Darkhoarse wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:45 Bagration wrote: GG Liquid. It's strange how Acer does better against Liquid when they don't use Innovation :p To be fair in the live setting Taeja demolished MMA as well Refresh my memory was Taeja playing from KR to EU that game? I forget the Server business they menitoned | ||
XtreMe_au
Australia412 Posts
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:46 Darkhoarse wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:45 Bagration wrote: GG Liquid. It's strange how Acer does better against Liquid when they don't use Innovation :p To be fair in the live setting Taeja demolished MMA as well But in a live setting MMA has also all killed Liquid. Both teams are capable to crushing each other. But I think one thing is clear: Acer and Liquid are starting to develop a nice little rivalry, and I like it. | ||
AlternativeEgo
Sweden17309 Posts
Well played by him and Nerchio. Nice one, Acer. | ||
Musicus
Germany23567 Posts
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
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liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:45 Aeromi wrote: The king of Terran is back. Mvp! where!? | ||
ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
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Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:35 Bagration wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Maybe, but she has yet to match his achievements. Achievements during BL-Infestor can be disregarded. | ||
liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:48 Bagration wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:46 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:45 Bagration wrote: GG Liquid. It's strange how Acer does better against Liquid when they don't use Innovation :p To be fair in the live setting Taeja demolished MMA as well But in a live setting MMA has also all killed Liquid. Both teams are capable to crushing each other. But I think one thing is clear: Acer and Liquid are starting to develop a nice little rivalry, and I like it. When did he all kill them? :o | ||
Darkhorse
United States23454 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:45 Aeromi wrote: The king of Terran is back. Actually Clide retired. | ||
Darkhorse
United States23454 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:51 liberate71 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:48 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:46 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:45 Bagration wrote: GG Liquid. It's strange how Acer does better against Liquid when they don't use Innovation :p To be fair in the live setting Taeja demolished MMA as well But in a live setting MMA has also all killed Liquid. Both teams are capable to crushing each other. But I think one thing is clear: Acer and Liquid are starting to develop a nice little rivalry, and I like it. When did he all kill them? :o In ATC Season 1 Playoffs. | ||
scsnow
Slovenia515 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:50 liberate71 wrote: Mvp! where!? What you say about Flash? | ||
739
Bearded Elder29875 Posts
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. | ||
liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:52 Darkhoarse wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:51 liberate71 wrote: On October 04 2013 00:48 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:46 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:45 Bagration wrote: GG Liquid. It's strange how Acer does better against Liquid when they don't use Innovation :p To be fair in the live setting Taeja demolished MMA as well But in a live setting MMA has also all killed Liquid. Both teams are capable to crushing each other. But I think one thing is clear: Acer and Liquid are starting to develop a nice little rivalry, and I like it. When did he all kill them? :o In ATC Season 1 Playoffs. Oh I didnt realise they did that live :o cool! | ||
Gorlin
United States2753 Posts
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liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. Jim(bo Jones)! | ||
ratbert
Germany1041 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:51 Aunvilgod wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:35 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Maybe, but she has yet to match his achievements. Achievements during BL-Infestor can be disregarded. because there weren't other zergs in these tournaments who had the same tools to win, right? -.- | ||
AlternativeEgo
Sweden17309 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:53 739 wrote: lol Nerchio won both TaeJa and HerO, woot. Yeah. He came home from school, put his backpack on the bed, started up his sc2 client, slayed two fierce Koreans and proceeded to take care of his homework. Just another day for the Nerchio. | ||
Musicus
Germany23567 Posts
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ratbert
Germany1041 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:57 Musicus wrote: I wonder when the offline finals will be, with HSC being announced to be November 14-17. wow did they announce HSC VIII ? awesome! (totally missed that) | ||
Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:56 ratbert wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:51 Aunvilgod wrote: On October 04 2013 00:35 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Maybe, but she has yet to match his achievements. Achievements during BL-Infestor can be disregarded. because there weren't other zergs in these tournaments who had the same tools to win, right? -.- Because how good you are at Roach vs Roach ZvZ doesn't say a lot about your overall skill. ZvZ was not a very diverse matchup. | ||
Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:56 liberate71 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. Jim(bo Jones)! Jim yes(took me a while to figure that out). He is very good, the best in China probably, but I haven't seen him make the same splash yet. His visa issues aren't helping though. | ||
Nerchio
Poland2633 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:57 AlternativeEgo wrote: Yeah. He came home from school, put his backpack on the bed, started up his sc2 client, slayed two fierce Koreans and proceeded to take care of his homework. Just another day for the Nerchio. Actually that's exactly what happened, I came and didn't want to play right away so we used ParanOid and then me while I was eating dinner. ezpz. | ||
ratbert
Germany1041 Posts
On October 04 2013 01:00 Aunvilgod wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:56 ratbert wrote: On October 04 2013 00:51 Aunvilgod wrote: On October 04 2013 00:35 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Maybe, but she has yet to match his achievements. Achievements during BL-Infestor can be disregarded. because there weren't other zergs in these tournaments who had the same tools to win, right? -.- Because how good you are at Roach vs Roach ZvZ doesn't say a lot about your overall skill. ZvZ was not a very diverse matchup. achievements during BL-infestor can't be disregarded. all i'm saying | ||
GumBa
United Kingdom31934 Posts
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SinCitta
Germany2127 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:57 Musicus wrote: I wonder when the offline finals will be, with HSC being announced to be November 14-17. Hmm, looks like a combined event. Maybe a week short of that but one could work on that. | ||
SmoKim
Denmark10277 Posts
GG Acer, important match to win! The rivalry continues | ||
Xoronius
Germany6362 Posts
On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". | ||
TriZ
Belgium379 Posts
Gogo Acer! Gotta love that MMA clinch. Kinda surprised Nerchio took out Taeja though. | ||
Liquid`Nazgul
22426 Posts
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shid0x
Korea (South)5014 Posts
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles. | ||
Liquid`Nazgul
22426 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On October 04 2013 01:18 Squat wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles. You're focusing too much on the current and present. Think about if you were to look back 10 years from now, and look at the entire picture, year by year, as opposed to month by month. Who was the best Terran in 2010 in Starcraft 2? It's hard to say, because few people can remember and there was no Terran champion back then (though plenty of Terran GSL finalists). That's why getting those big tournament wins are so important. They cement the legacy. Nerchio has done that to a certain extent, and is highly accomplished in this way among foreign Zergs. Scarlett still has a way to go in terms of getting those big wins. | ||
Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On October 04 2013 01:28 Bagration wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 01:18 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles. You're focusing too much on the current and present. Think about if you were to look back 10 years from now, and look at the entire picture, year by year, as opposed to month by month. Who was the best Terran in 2010 in Starcraft 2? It's hard to say, because few people can remember and there was no Terran champion back then (though plenty of Terran GSL finalists). We are talking about who is the best player, not the most accomplished. Nada was the most accomplished brood war player ever, together with flash. He is far from the best. The present is what matter when we are talking about best. Most accomplished is another matter. Scarlett is better than Jinro/Idra/Huk/etc ever were, even if she has less accomplishments. | ||
intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On October 04 2013 01:34 Squat wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 01:28 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 01:18 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles. You're focusing too much on the current and present. Think about if you were to look back 10 years from now, and look at the entire picture, year by year, as opposed to month by month. Who was the best Terran in 2010 in Starcraft 2? It's hard to say, because few people can remember and there was no Terran champion back then (though plenty of Terran GSL finalists). We are talking about who is the best player, not the most accomplished. Nada was the most accomplished brood war player ever, together with flash. He is far from the best. The present is what matter when we are talking about best. Most accomplished is another matter. Scarlett is better than Jinro/Idra/Huk/etc ever were, even if she has less accomplishments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis) Read this article, it is quite insightful and pretty relevant to looking at Esports in the long run. Basically, we don't judge players by the standards (IE metagame in this case) of today, but of the standards (metagame) that they were active in. | ||
Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On October 04 2013 01:38 Bagration wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 01:34 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 01:28 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 01:18 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 00:32 Darkhoarse wrote: Psh Nerchio beating Taeja and HerO? Flukes. He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles. You're focusing too much on the current and present. Think about if you were to look back 10 years from now, and look at the entire picture, year by year, as opposed to month by month. Who was the best Terran in 2010 in Starcraft 2? It's hard to say, because few people can remember and there was no Terran champion back then (though plenty of Terran GSL finalists). We are talking about who is the best player, not the most accomplished. Nada was the most accomplished brood war player ever, together with flash. He is far from the best. The present is what matter when we are talking about best. Most accomplished is another matter. Scarlett is better than Jinro/Idra/Huk/etc ever were, even if she has less accomplishments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis) Read this article, it is quite insightful and pretty relevant to looking at Esports in the long run. Basically, we don't judge players by the standards (IE metagame in this case) of today, but of the standards (metagame) that they were active in. Please don't insult me by linking wiki articles, I've read all that junk. It's nonsense, raw ability is not different because of meta game shifts. Every sports great from 30 years ago would be hopelessly inadequate today, even if they could adapt to modern playstyles(meta) because players are just better. I consider myself intelligent enough to distinguish when a player is clearly superior skill wise. I simply disagree with you on to measure performance. I actually do judge players by modern standards. I don't think titles, especially old ones, are a good way, and I stand by that. | ||
Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On October 04 2013 01:48 Squat wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 01:38 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 01:34 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 01:28 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 01:18 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: [quote] He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles. You're focusing too much on the current and present. Think about if you were to look back 10 years from now, and look at the entire picture, year by year, as opposed to month by month. Who was the best Terran in 2010 in Starcraft 2? It's hard to say, because few people can remember and there was no Terran champion back then (though plenty of Terran GSL finalists). We are talking about who is the best player, not the most accomplished. Nada was the most accomplished brood war player ever, together with flash. He is far from the best. The present is what matter when we are talking about best. Most accomplished is another matter. Scarlett is better than Jinro/Idra/Huk/etc ever were, even if she has less accomplishments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis) Read this article, it is quite insightful and pretty relevant to looking at Esports in the long run. Basically, we don't judge players by the standards (IE metagame in this case) of today, but of the standards (metagame) that they were active in. Please don't insult me by linking wiki articles, I've read all that junk. It's nonsense, raw ability is not different because of meta game shifts. Every sports great from 30 years ago would be hopelessly inadequate today, even if they could adapt to modern playstyles(meta) because players are just better. I consider myself intelligent enough to distinguish when a player is clearly superior skill wise. I simply disagree with you on to measure performance. I actually do judge players by modern standards. I don't think titles, especially old ones, are a good way, and I stand by that. Sorry for insulting you with Wikipedia. That was really offensive of me Also, check this article out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronological_snobbery | ||
Xoronius
Germany6362 Posts
On October 04 2013 01:48 Squat wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 01:38 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 01:34 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 01:28 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 01:18 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: On October 04 2013 00:33 Bagration wrote: [quote] He's one of the 3 great foreign zergs. First there was Idra, then Nerchio and Stephano. Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles. You're focusing too much on the current and present. Think about if you were to look back 10 years from now, and look at the entire picture, year by year, as opposed to month by month. Who was the best Terran in 2010 in Starcraft 2? It's hard to say, because few people can remember and there was no Terran champion back then (though plenty of Terran GSL finalists). We are talking about who is the best player, not the most accomplished. Nada was the most accomplished brood war player ever, together with flash. He is far from the best. The present is what matter when we are talking about best. Most accomplished is another matter. Scarlett is better than Jinro/Idra/Huk/etc ever were, even if she has less accomplishments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis) Read this article, it is quite insightful and pretty relevant to looking at Esports in the long run. Basically, we don't judge players by the standards (IE metagame in this case) of today, but of the standards (metagame) that they were active in. Please don't insult me by linking wiki articles, I've read all that junk. It's nonsense, raw ability is not different because of meta game shifts. Every sports great from 30 years ago would be hopelessly inadequate today, even if they could adapt to modern playstyles(meta) because players are just better. I consider myself intelligent enough to distinguish when a player is clearly superior skill wise. I simply disagree with you on to measure performance. I actually do judge players by modern standards. I don't think titles, especially old ones, are a good way, and I stand by that. Going by logic everyone with an 2600+Elo is a better chess player than Philidor or Steinitz. Going by your logic every Code S zerg now (hyvaa, TRUE, etc.) is better than Fruitdealer. Ofc. sports evolve, but that is just one more reason, to see stuff in relation. If you could sent Wladimir Klitschko back in time in his current state, he would destroy Joe Louis or George Foreman, but that does not change anything about their deserved legendary status. | ||
Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
On October 04 2013 01:57 Bagration wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 01:48 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 01:38 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 01:34 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 01:28 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 01:18 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: [quote] Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles. You're focusing too much on the current and present. Think about if you were to look back 10 years from now, and look at the entire picture, year by year, as opposed to month by month. Who was the best Terran in 2010 in Starcraft 2? It's hard to say, because few people can remember and there was no Terran champion back then (though plenty of Terran GSL finalists). We are talking about who is the best player, not the most accomplished. Nada was the most accomplished brood war player ever, together with flash. He is far from the best. The present is what matter when we are talking about best. Most accomplished is another matter. Scarlett is better than Jinro/Idra/Huk/etc ever were, even if she has less accomplishments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis) Read this article, it is quite insightful and pretty relevant to looking at Esports in the long run. Basically, we don't judge players by the standards (IE metagame in this case) of today, but of the standards (metagame) that they were active in. Please don't insult me by linking wiki articles, I've read all that junk. It's nonsense, raw ability is not different because of meta game shifts. Every sports great from 30 years ago would be hopelessly inadequate today, even if they could adapt to modern playstyles(meta) because players are just better. I consider myself intelligent enough to distinguish when a player is clearly superior skill wise. I simply disagree with you on to measure performance. I actually do judge players by modern standards. I don't think titles, especially old ones, are a good way, and I stand by that. Sorry for insulting you with Wikipedia. That was really offensive of me Also, check this article out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronological_snobbery It's pleasantly surprising, though humbling as well, to read about the ancient Greeks and find out they were just as smart as us. You could give Plato or Aristotle a primer on the 21st century and they'd be great men in this day. More importantly, I hope Nerchio enjoyed his after dinner snack of Hero and Taeja before getting indigestion from TLO. | ||
Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On October 04 2013 02:37 Xoronius wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 01:48 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 01:38 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 01:34 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 01:28 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 01:18 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:34 Darkhoarse wrote: [quote] Scarlett is better than Nerchio. Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles. You're focusing too much on the current and present. Think about if you were to look back 10 years from now, and look at the entire picture, year by year, as opposed to month by month. Who was the best Terran in 2010 in Starcraft 2? It's hard to say, because few people can remember and there was no Terran champion back then (though plenty of Terran GSL finalists). We are talking about who is the best player, not the most accomplished. Nada was the most accomplished brood war player ever, together with flash. He is far from the best. The present is what matter when we are talking about best. Most accomplished is another matter. Scarlett is better than Jinro/Idra/Huk/etc ever were, even if she has less accomplishments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis) Read this article, it is quite insightful and pretty relevant to looking at Esports in the long run. Basically, we don't judge players by the standards (IE metagame in this case) of today, but of the standards (metagame) that they were active in. Please don't insult me by linking wiki articles, I've read all that junk. It's nonsense, raw ability is not different because of meta game shifts. Every sports great from 30 years ago would be hopelessly inadequate today, even if they could adapt to modern playstyles(meta) because players are just better. I consider myself intelligent enough to distinguish when a player is clearly superior skill wise. I simply disagree with you on to measure performance. I actually do judge players by modern standards. I don't think titles, especially old ones, are a good way, and I stand by that. Going by logic everyone with an 2600+Elo is a better chess player than Philidor or Steinitz. Going by your logic every Code S zerg now (hyvaa, TRUE, etc.) is better than Fruitdealer. Ofc. sports evolve, but that is just one more reason, to see stuff in relation. If you could sent Wladimir Klitschko back in time in his current state, he would destroy Joe Louis or George Foreman, but that does not change anything about their deserved legendary status. Uh, they are? Kind of the point Never said anything about legacy, I was talking only about pure ability. I agree about that point, never disputed it to begin with. Nada is a legend and a hero. He would still have gotten murked by any top 10 player in 2010. | ||
Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On October 04 2013 02:41 Ansinjunger wrote: Show nested quote + On October 04 2013 01:57 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 01:48 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 01:38 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 01:34 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 01:28 Bagration wrote: On October 04 2013 01:18 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 01:07 Xoronius wrote: On October 04 2013 00:54 Squat wrote: On October 04 2013 00:40 Xoronius wrote: [quote] Atm. she possibly is. Sure surely is better than Idra atm.. Still, he (Nerchio) is DH champion, HSC champion, IPL runner-up, IEM runner-up.... Historically Nerchio achieved much more, like Idra and Stephano did, so if you want to call 3 people "the great foreign zerg", it is definitly those three. Achievements are easily quantified, skill not so much. If we are to determine who is the best player in terms of sheer ability, what matters the most is who you play and how you do against the best players. I struggle to think of a single foreigner other than Nani who can consistently compete with and beat top koreans apart from Scarlett, post Stephano's prime. "Post Stephanos Prime" is exactly the wording, that matters here. If you just look at the current time, Scarlett is up there. If you look at 2010/2011 you will find world class games from Jinro and Idra. I like achievments as a way to determine skill, as they are neutral and not hype-biased. There are people, who are saying for years now, that Major/Illusion would be the best foreign terrans in terms of pure skill, based on watching their streams and there is still nothing to back that up. We can all see, that Scarlett is a top-foreigner at the moment and probably the no.1 zerg (although Nerchio and Vortix are on their way up again), but eventually she will have to turn that into results, if we should name her "great foreign zerg". Results, like being one of two non-koreans to make it past the group stage in the season finals? Like top 4 WCS AM finish? Like winning WCS AM in a clean sweep? She has results, quite a few in fact. Also, recent results, even if they are not wins, trump wins from a year or more ago, especially if the field in those tournaments was not very strong. I like raw skill as a measurement of skill, can this player consistently hang with the best players, yes or no, that's all I really care about. Winning a smaller, mostly local tourney does not impress me nearly as much as a 0.5 record against top players. Jinro and Idra in their prime would not measure up today. If we are to discuss the best foreign player, it has to be about who actually plays the best Starcraft, not who has more titles. You're focusing too much on the current and present. Think about if you were to look back 10 years from now, and look at the entire picture, year by year, as opposed to month by month. Who was the best Terran in 2010 in Starcraft 2? It's hard to say, because few people can remember and there was no Terran champion back then (though plenty of Terran GSL finalists). We are talking about who is the best player, not the most accomplished. Nada was the most accomplished brood war player ever, together with flash. He is far from the best. The present is what matter when we are talking about best. Most accomplished is another matter. Scarlett is better than Jinro/Idra/Huk/etc ever were, even if she has less accomplishments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis) Read this article, it is quite insightful and pretty relevant to looking at Esports in the long run. Basically, we don't judge players by the standards (IE metagame in this case) of today, but of the standards (metagame) that they were active in. Please don't insult me by linking wiki articles, I've read all that junk. It's nonsense, raw ability is not different because of meta game shifts. Every sports great from 30 years ago would be hopelessly inadequate today, even if they could adapt to modern playstyles(meta) because players are just better. I consider myself intelligent enough to distinguish when a player is clearly superior skill wise. I simply disagree with you on to measure performance. I actually do judge players by modern standards. I don't think titles, especially old ones, are a good way, and I stand by that. Sorry for insulting you with Wikipedia. That was really offensive of me Also, check this article out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronological_snobbery It's pleasantly surprising, though humbling as well, to read about the ancient Greeks and find out they were just as smart as us. You could give Plato or Aristotle a primer on the 21st century and they'd be great men in this day. More importantly, I hope Nerchio enjoyed his after dinner snack of Hero and Taeja before getting indigestion from TLO. Nerchio really put on his big boy pants for this one! Way to go Nerch! Really impressive that Acer was able to win this without Innovation or Scarlett - really scary for a teamleague when they use everyone. | ||
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