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Valikyr
Sweden2653 Posts
On August 27 2013 06:45 AngrySalmon wrote: looks like protoss needs another buff.. stupid terran hasnt been nerfed enough Atleast we were ahead of the meta for 1 week to get a lot of players into the playoffs. Wasn't enough though  | ||
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
On August 27 2013 10:45 Rollora wrote: still, 314 pages later, no one could explain me, why no foreigner has ever achieved something as TERRAN, even in WOL, altough it is called an OP race? Or asked the other way around: I still call the game balanced by myself (on Korean Ladder/GSL/highest skill level) but besides that, why is there still a race discussion? #1 everyone below Korean GM League doesn't know the game, obvsly #2 just by observing... ok some guys know the tactics and strategy behind the game... so I am sorry for #1 but... #3 knowing the game, and pulling it off are different things. #4 there were always the time where 1 race was called OP, but still we never knew if it really was OP... As a former main Terran I know, terran early game can clearly be abused, but still - isn't it time to be shown yet, that protoss and zerg are harder to win with (well the statement T is OP says it) than terran - or again, other way around: when will there be a Terran upset`? I mean: we have seen several Zerg (Stephaon, Scarlett etc) and Protoss (Naniwa, Grubby...) foreign Gamers... but no foreign Gamer seems to be capable of really know how to use the OP Race (Terran)? As a NON pro, and as one who always hears the whine of so many players ( I play RANDOM, and just to be honest till a CERTAIN SKILL LEVEL (lets say Diamond, Masters) there are easy races, and less easier races) I just ask for a honest opinion (although I might never get one): Why, if Terran is considered OP, are we never going to see a foreigner terran "upset" someone? And just keep whining, of MMM (don't mention Mines, Tanks, Marines...)or whatever, still, on the higher, maybe not highest skill-level the question maintains... I mean is the same: if T is so "easy" and OP, why don't EVEN foreigners succeed with it? Foreigners being unsuccessfull with T is the ultimate prove it isn't OP (not saying it is UP, but still, i hate the useless flame towards the terran race, as I am playing it since 2010 (random) and saw... it's not OP at all...) It is OP against zerg at the moment, that's for sure. I would've thought it was obvious by now. Terran is really hard to play, but also has the highest skill ceiling in sc2. It's very demanding with multitasking, macro and micro, and all the top foreign terrans have at least 1 major flaw that prevent them from playing terran to the best of its ability. LucifroN is the closest, but even he has some major flaws that are rather obvious to see. He doesn't respond well to harass very well and sometimes fails hard vs cheese for example. | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37063 Posts
Interview is up! | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
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SAFenix
Canada439 Posts
And yes MC won two GSL's but that was when the game was young and nobody understood how anything worked. | ||
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mrtomjones
Canada4020 Posts
On August 27 2013 17:25 SAFenix wrote: Indeed, the high skill cap of Terran is what makes it "OP" at the top level. The opposite for Protoss also happens to be the reason why, although at a lower level, Protoss is considered strong right now but no true dominant top tier Protoss has emerged, I would argue EVER, in Starcraft 2. Rain was the closest we had to a long-running top 3 Protoss but his inability to perform in high-level situations (Proleague playoffs, OSL Season 2 Finals, Ro8 WCS Season 2 Finals) is what stops him from becoming a multi-champion like say, MVP, NesTea, and MMA. And yes MC won two GSL's but that was when the game was young and nobody understood how anything worked. MC was consistantly dominant over quite a long period and had many very good performances outside of those 2 wins. | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 27 2013 17:25 SAFenix wrote: Indeed, the high skill cap of Terran is what makes it "OP" at the top level. The opposite for Protoss also happens to be the reason why, although at a lower level, Protoss is considered strong right now but no true dominant top tier Protoss has emerged, I would argue EVER, in Starcraft 2. Rain was the closest we had to a long-running top 3 Protoss but his inability to perform in high-level situations (Proleague playoffs, OSL Season 2 Finals, Ro8 WCS Season 2 Finals) is what stops him from becoming a multi-champion like say, MVP, NesTea, and MMA. And yes MC won two GSL's but that was when the game was young and nobody understood how anything worked. The 'skill cap' argument is a flawed one. There is no realistically achievable skill ceiling in Starcraft. The skill ceiling is when each unit is micro'd to perfect efficiency, there are 0 timing errors, and scouting is as perfect as possible. There will always be more to do and more to do more efficiently. The 'skill cap' has nothing to do with winning at the highest level. Yes terrans have a higher theoretical skill ceiling (due to the use of lower supply units throughout the game), but none of the racial ceilings are achievable. | ||
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Darrkhan
Finland1236 Posts
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Rollora
2450 Posts
On August 27 2013 13:39 AxionSteel wrote: It is OP against zerg at the moment, that's for sure. I would've thought it was obvious by now. Terran is really hard to play, but also has the highest skill ceiling in sc2. It's very demanding with multitasking, macro and micro, and all the top foreign terrans have at least 1 major flaw that prevent them from playing terran to the best of its ability. LucifroN is the closest, but even he has some major flaws that are rather obvious to see. He doesn't respond well to harass very well and sometimes fails hard vs cheese for example. thx for the explanation. I always felt exactly that way, seems like your words are directly coming from my soul but i couldn't form them :D (and always got warned when I wrote something like that) On August 27 2013 16:43 Incognoto wrote: Playing Terran at a really high level is actually really, really hard. I would argue they have a really high skill ceiling. Regardless, Terran players who win shit deserve their wins. Haha I like your last sentence :D Although to win something as terran you have to be Korean Code S Level | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On August 27 2013 17:25 SAFenix wrote: Indeed, the high skill cap of Terran is what makes it "OP" at the top level. The opposite for Protoss also happens to be the reason why, although at a lower level, Protoss is considered strong right now but no true dominant top tier Protoss has emerged, I would argue EVER, in Starcraft 2. Rain was the closest we had to a long-running top 3 Protoss but his inability to perform in high-level situations (Proleague playoffs, OSL Season 2 Finals, Ro8 WCS Season 2 Finals) is what stops him from becoming a multi-champion like say, MVP, NesTea, and MMA. And yes MC won two GSL's but that was when the game was young and nobody understood how anything worked. No, MC is definitely the toss with greatest longevity at the top (and even he's been inconsistent compared to the Zerg/Terran counterparts). Even now, though he's not quite a top-tier toss he still pulls results. MC has always been the guy that everyone thought was "figured out", was never really that great, and had finally fallen off. Then he'd shoryuken all doubts to hell and kick ass again and again. The guy was there since the first open season and even in the final WoL season made it to the ro8 only narrowly losing to RorO. PartinG should be ahead of Rain as well. He's one of the next closest to a Nestea award(8/10) and has won/placed well in several premiere events. On August 27 2013 18:39 Rollora wrote: Haha I like your last sentence :D Although to win something as terran you have to be Korean Code S Level Sorry to interrupt the terran circlejerk but: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ThorZaIN | ||
Poopi
France12911 Posts
On August 27 2013 07:13 Emzeeshady wrote: Don't look at supply as a meter of how well a player is macroing. Look at how many resources they have. Supply will fluctuate depending on the build/strategy the player is going for. Bomber used more aggressive strategies where he skipped the 4th CC and got late upgrades in favour of more production therefore his supply will be very high. Even during battles I wasn't able to spot 2 real seconds where Bomber wasn't producing the maximum amount of marines (be it 13, 16 or whatever depending the moment of the game), which means that he wasn't overqueuing (because it wasn't instant max production of marines) yet he was very fast to produce what was needed, everytime. It is why he took so long to die against Scarlett in some games, his production was always stellar. | ||
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Muffloe
Sweden6061 Posts
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ARLEN
Sweden21 Posts
On August 27 2013 19:09 Muffloe wrote: Bomber has been THE macro terran since his big outbreak. And people have joked around about that he is inconsistent, but he has always been consistent in his macro. I dont even see how this is arguable tbh :/ Yup, my thought exactly. There is always a way to break any type of tactic, just because someone is showing overwhelming dominance doesnt mean there isnt a solution. Just wait and see.. Bomber is a Beast of a Machine, he deserved to win. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On August 27 2013 13:39 AxionSteel wrote: It is OP against zerg at the moment, that's for sure. I would've thought it was obvious by now. Terran is really hard to play, but also has the highest skill ceiling in sc2. It's very demanding with multitasking, macro and micro. I really have problems with this line of reasoning. The mechanical difficulty of terran and zerg feel almost identical in hots, maybe not so much in wol where in theory at least you could a move into a terran army. Meh, it's been popularized I guess, so there is no going back now. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On August 27 2013 17:52 lichter wrote: The 'skill cap' argument is a flawed one. There is no realistically achievable skill ceiling in Starcraft. The skill ceiling is when each unit is micro'd to perfect efficiency, there are 0 timing errors, and scouting is as perfect as possible. There will always be more to do and more to do more efficiently. The 'skill cap' has nothing to do with winning at the highest level. Yes terrans have a higher theoretical skill ceiling (due to the use of lower supply units throughout the game), but none of the racial ceilings are achievable. But it's not unreasonable to think that you can obtain more when flirting with the skill ceiling of Terran than with playing either Protoss or Zerg. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 27 2013 20:14 ZenithM wrote: But it's not unreasonable to think that you can obtain more when flirting with the skill ceiling of Terran than with playing either Protoss or Zerg. We aren't even close to the skill ceiling, so I wouldn't call it flirting. More like stalking from afar and leering lasciviously at her shoulder. xD Skill to reward ratio is different, and I think that's what people really mean. For that, I suppose I'd agree. Terran units are low HP, high DPS units so they would benefit the most from being micro'd. That doesn't necessarily make Terran harder/better/faster/stronger though. Also I love how Terrans are now using unburrow/burrow micro on their mines. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Skill ceiling is not reached yet, indeed, but I don't expect people to become much better mechanically than they are right now. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
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Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 27 2013 20:44 ZenithM wrote: I think we should have a reasonable definition of what skill ceiling is :D. Nobody will go to Automaton 2000 level of marine splitting so it's not really relevant to talk about it. Skill ceiling is not reached yet, indeed, but I don't expect people to become much better mechanically than they are right now. Lol of course not that, but the human skill ceiling (as opposed to a technical skill ceiling) is still pretty far. We might see moments of perfect micro and mechanics but they never last more than a few seconds. That's why it's a ceiling. You can jump up to reach it for a touch, but you can never stay there. Otherwise you'd have a pretty shitty architect. | ||
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