KangHo vs jjakji Shine vs EffOrt KangHo vs Hurricane EffOrt vs jjakji Shine vs Hurricane EffOrt vs KangHo jjakji vs Hurricane Shine vs KangHo EffOrt vs Hurricane Shine vs jjakji
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (6)
40%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (1)
7%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
7%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (0)
0%
15 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Kangho vs Jjakji
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (8)
73%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (2)
18%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
9%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (0)
0%
★★★ - Good game (0)
0%
11 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Shine vs EffOrt
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
7%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
15 total votes
Your vote: Recommend EffOrt vs Jjakji?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (3)
38%
★★★ - Good game (1)
13%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
13%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (0)
0%
8 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Kangho vs Hurricane?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (7)
70%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (1)
10%
★★★ - Good game (1)
10%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
10%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (0)
0%
10 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Shine vs Hurricane?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (2)
4%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
54 total votes
Your vote: Recommend EffOrt vs Kangho?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (9)
31%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (4)
14%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (4)
14%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (2)
7%
29 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Jjakji vs Hurricane?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0)
0%
27 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Shine vs Kangho?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (2)
7%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (2)
7%
27 total votes
Your vote: Recommend EffOrt vs Hurricane?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (12)
55%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (4)
18%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (3)
14%
★★★ - Good game (2)
9%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (1)
5%
22 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Shine vs Jjakji?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Shine will go 2-2 in this group, winning versus jjakji and Hurricane and losing to KangHo and EffOrt. Then he gets out of tie breakers versus jjakji and either KangHo/EffOrt.
On August 15 2013 16:41 lichter wrote: For some reason I couldn't get mYi's icon to work the same way I made all the other icons work. Probably should have just added "mYi" anyway
hm, trying to find a way to get the icon now. Which size is it supposed to be?
On August 15 2013 16:41 lichter wrote: For some reason I couldn't get mYi's icon to work the same way I made all the other icons work. Probably should have just added "mYi" anyway
hm, trying to find a way to get the icon now. Which size is it supposed to be?
On August 15 2013 16:41 lichter wrote: For some reason I couldn't get mYi's icon to work the same way I made all the other icons work. Probably should have just added "mYi" anyway
hm, trying to find a way to get the icon now. Which size is it supposed to be?
On August 15 2013 16:57 Fionn wrote: Happy birthday to Khaldor, one of the best commentators in the three year history of SC2.
when the games are started, let's summon Khaldor by criticizing him a lot and then we he comes to this thread to slay some nerds we will all spam happy birthday for 4 pages
I'm so torn. I want Jjakji to win because I really like him. But at the same time there's this selfish wish that he loses and drops out of GSL and goes to Switzerland so I can visit him and see him there
wow that's quite the brainfart from Wolf. yes, it's the same upgrade for ground and air and terran players get it all the time cause it's awesome for medivacs, widow mines and vikings.
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (6)
40%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (1)
7%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
7%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (0)
0%
15 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Kangho vs Jjakji
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (6)
40%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (1)
7%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
7%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (0)
0%
15 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Kangho vs Jjakji
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (8)
73%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (2)
18%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
9%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (0)
0%
★★★ - Good game (0)
0%
11 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Shine vs EffOrt
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (8)
73%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (2)
18%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
9%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (0)
0%
★★★ - Good game (0)
0%
11 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Shine vs EffOrt
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
did they say when they'll play Hurricane - Kangho? I was away from the PC for a minute and just heard that it will be delayed and JJakji-Effort played first
Taking that hidden 4th is a great counter to what jjakji did vs KangHo, it makes him win 4base vs 3base (because he actually at 5 bases!). Also he is behind, good to do what it takes to win.
Against KangHo, jjakji did put a marine in a weird spot to scout for ling runbys. Might do the same and accidentally scout the hidden base.
And I disagree with Wolf, the hidden base is really something that would give Effort an edge. At least if he can delay until he gets advantage out of it.
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
7%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
15 total votes
Your vote: Recommend EffOrt vs Jjakji?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
7%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
15 total votes
Your vote: Recommend EffOrt vs Jjakji?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On August 15 2013 19:02 Dingodile wrote: the same as usual, terran has 3-3 before hive tech has completed. but this time "only" 2-3 because zerg killed the ebay 10sec before +3attack upgrade.
Not suiciding your entire roach timing on to 2 widow mines helps a lot with not getting behind.
On August 15 2013 18:51 Zealously wrote: jjakji/Hurricane and my life is (semi-)complete. Effort doesn't seem on top of his game right now
has he ever ?
Not in SC2 no.
Meh, he's had a couple of pretty good games in SC2 which is what I'm comparing. Can't really compare BW form to SC2 form ^^
in the early stages of Proleague he was clearly one of the better Kespa players(along with her0 and obviously Rain), but he has fallen off compared to others
On August 15 2013 19:02 Dingodile wrote: the same as usual, terran has 3-3 before hive tech has completed. but this time "only" 2-3 because zerg killed the ebay 10sec before +3attack upgrade.
Yeah, better not talk about the perfectly blocked Roach Warren 25.
On August 15 2013 18:51 Zealously wrote: jjakji/Hurricane and my life is (semi-)complete. Effort doesn't seem on top of his game right now
has he ever ?
Not in SC2 no.
Meh, he's had a couple of pretty good games in SC2 which is what I'm comparing. Can't really compare BW form to SC2 form ^^
in the early stages of Proleague he was clearly one of the better Kespa players(along with her0 and obviously Rain), but he has fallen off compared to others
He also gave us one of the most entertaining games last year imo, but mostly because of Maru!
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (3)
38%
★★★ - Good game (1)
13%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
13%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (0)
0%
8 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Kangho vs Hurricane?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On August 15 2013 18:51 Zealously wrote: jjakji/Hurricane and my life is (semi-)complete. Effort doesn't seem on top of his game right now
has he ever ?
Not in SC2 no.
Meh, he's had a couple of pretty good games in SC2 which is what I'm comparing. Can't really compare BW form to SC2 form ^^
in the early stages of Proleague he was clearly one of the better Kespa players(along with her0 and obviously Rain), but he has fallen off compared to others
He also gave us one of the most entertaining games last year imo, but mostly because of Maru!
On August 15 2013 16:45 Ctesias wrote: Head: Effort, Hurricane (do I keep overestimating this guy?) Heart: Effort, Jjakji
hurricane won the hong kong qualifier, vs all the pros from HerO to Leenock ... he got first place there so NO you dont ^^
I would like to point out that qualifier Hurricane is not offline Hurricane. The former is like a bonjovi, the latter is good but not superstar quality (most of the time) TT
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (3)
38%
★★★ - Good game (1)
13%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
13%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (0)
0%
8 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Kangho vs Hurricane?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On August 15 2013 18:51 Zealously wrote: jjakji/Hurricane and my life is (semi-)complete. Effort doesn't seem on top of his game right now
has he ever ?
Not in SC2 no.
Meh, he's had a couple of pretty good games in SC2 which is what I'm comparing. Can't really compare BW form to SC2 form ^^
in the early stages of Proleague he was clearly one of the better Kespa players(along with her0 and obviously Rain), but he has fallen off compared to others
He also gave us one of the most entertaining games last year imo, but mostly because of Maru!
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (7)
70%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (1)
10%
★★★ - Good game (1)
10%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
10%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (0)
0%
10 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Shine vs Hurricane?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (7)
70%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (1)
10%
★★★ - Good game (1)
10%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
10%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (0)
0%
10 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Shine vs Hurricane?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Going back over the results from the last few groups and almost every player I wanted to get through lost. There's no chance of Jjakji letting me down right?
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (2)
4%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
54 total votes
Your vote: Recommend EffOrt vs Kangho?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (2)
4%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
54 total votes
Your vote: Recommend EffOrt vs Kangho?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (2)
4%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
54 total votes
Your vote: Recommend EffOrt vs Kangho?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On August 15 2013 19:54 DJHelium wrote: Was doing laundry, just listening. What happened?
Kangho breaks down the arch and the rocks fall down as normal, EffOrt had a group of roaches nearby, he moved them towards the rocks after they had fallen down and half of them explode as if the rocks had fallen on them.
Though EffOrt was already well behind by then, and made some poor decisions after that.
How is this the map makers messing up and not Effort? Collapsible rocks that can kill units have been in the expansion since launch. Is this the wrong ver. of the map where they aren't supposed to be there? It seems like Effort just wasn't paying attention. Or am I missing something?
On August 15 2013 19:57 Caihead wrote: Next they should have rocks that when destroyed made entire regions fall off the map or made spikes fall from the ceiling or shot lasers every where.
There should be rocks that, if you take them down, your opponent just loses his side of the map and therefore loses.
On August 15 2013 19:58 Scribble wrote: How is this the map makers messing up and not Effort? Collapsible rocks that can kill units have been in the expansion since launch. Is this the wrong ver. of the map where they aren't supposed to be there? It seems like Effort just wasn't paying attention.
The rocks had already fallen. He ran his army into rocks on the ground, proceeded to lose half of it.
Either the animation is different and very delayed, or there is a bug.
On August 15 2013 19:58 Scribble wrote: How is this the map makers messing up and not Effort? Collapsible rocks that can kill units have been in the expansion since launch. Is this the wrong ver. of the map where they aren't supposed to be there? It seems like Effort just wasn't paying attention.
The rocks don't kill units anymore. Also, the roaches were not dying when the rocks dropped, but when they ran into them afterwards.
On August 15 2013 19:58 Scribble wrote: How is this the map makers messing up and not Effort? Collapsible rocks that can kill units have been in the expansion since launch. Is this the wrong ver. of the map where they aren't supposed to be there? It seems like Effort just wasn't paying attention.
It was after the rocks had fallen. He knocked them down, waited, moved through the open space, and got shredded.
On August 15 2013 19:58 Scribble wrote: How is this the map makers messing up and not Effort? Collapsible rocks that can kill units have been in the expansion since launch. Is this the wrong ver. of the map where they aren't supposed to be there? It seems like Effort just wasn't paying attention.
The rocks had already fallen. He ran his army into rocks on the ground, proceeded to lose half of it.
Either the animation is different and very delayed, or there is a bug.
Ahh, I was too hasty to react if that's the case. That is a messed up way to lose.
On August 15 2013 19:57 Caihead wrote: Next they should have rocks that when destroyed made entire regions fall off the map or made spikes fall from the ceiling or shot lasers every where.
There should be rocks that, if you take them down, your opponent just loses his side of the map and therefore loses.
you unlock a secret map and after exploring it for 5 minutes you come back with hybrid burninators
On August 15 2013 19:58 mrtomjones wrote: So a big bug happens and they dont regame?
nope, but GOM will definitely do a statement, just like when byun bunker-blocked nesteas (i think) ramp on atlantis when the neutral depot somehow wasn't there.
Yea, like MAKING A STATEMENT matters. Gonna give some random appologetic shit and let it go.
On August 15 2013 19:58 Scribble wrote: How is this the map makers messing up and not Effort? Collapsible rocks that can kill units have been in the expansion since launch. Is this the wrong ver. of the map where they aren't supposed to be there? It seems like Effort just wasn't paying attention.
The rocks had already fallen. He ran his army into rocks on the ground, proceeded to lose half of it.
Either the animation is different and very delayed, or there is a bug.
I guess it's a bug where the animation is finished already but the rocks are still falling. Since he a-moved his roaches to the other side of the map and they tried to take the path through the rocks, so for the roach-A.I. those rocks were still not down
On August 15 2013 19:58 Scribble wrote: How is this the map makers messing up and not Effort? Collapsible rocks that can kill units have been in the expansion since launch. Is this the wrong ver. of the map where they aren't supposed to be there? It seems like Effort just wasn't paying attention. Or am I missing something?
They are meant to cause damage when they fall on the units, what happened was roaches ran into the rocks a few seconds after they had fallen and still died.
Either an unannounced feature or a sad bug
....but I'm hoping feature :D
Edit: and it may be the maker's fault if they custom coded the rocks, if they are default then it is a blizzard problem.
On August 15 2013 19:58 Scribble wrote: How is this the map makers messing up and not Effort? Collapsible rocks that can kill units have been in the expansion since launch. Is this the wrong ver. of the map where they aren't supposed to be there? It seems like Effort just wasn't paying attention.
The rocks had already fallen. He ran his army into rocks on the ground, proceeded to lose half of it.
Either the animation is different and very delayed, or there is a bug.
I guess it's a bug where the animation is finished already but the rocks are still falling. Since he a-moved his roaches to the other side of the map and they tried to take the path through the rocks, so for the roach-A.I. those rocks were still not down
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (9)
31%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (4)
14%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (4)
14%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (2)
7%
29 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Jjakji vs Hurricane?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (9)
31%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (4)
14%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (4)
14%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (2)
7%
29 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Jjakji vs Hurricane?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On August 15 2013 19:58 Scribble wrote: How is this the map makers messing up and not Effort? Collapsible rocks that can kill units have been in the expansion since launch. Is this the wrong ver. of the map where they aren't supposed to be there? It seems like Effort just wasn't paying attention.
The rocks had already fallen. He ran his army into rocks on the ground, proceeded to lose half of it.
Either the animation is different and very delayed, or there is a bug.
just checked it, its the animation. and btw only 1 scv/probe can damage the rocks at a time so it took like 6 mins :D
On August 15 2013 20:09 Penev wrote: Wasn't Hurricane favourite to win this almost the whole time? Those scv's jjaki send weren't exactly mining and he was up or at least even in supply.
If jjakji builds his bunk in front of the Nexus, he wins that game. Hurricane had not built a Zealot, so he couldn't really prevent the bunk from going up.
On August 15 2013 20:09 Penev wrote: Wasn't Hurricane favourite to win this almost the whole time? Those scv's jjaki send weren't exactly mining and he was up or at least even in supply.
If jjakji builds his bunk in front of the Nexus, he wins that game. Hurricane had not built a Zealot, so he couldn't really prevent the bunk from going up.
Yeah, but he didn't. It was pretty clear after that that it wasn't going to work (hence the almost).
On August 15 2013 20:14 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Losira better win here after I hyped his ZvZ. It'd suck if he missed code S by losing to Shine of all people. Especially since he's 0-7 in HotS ZvZ.
I love LGIM, but I cant lie that I want Shine to win both games and Hurricane to win his.
On August 15 2013 20:14 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Losira better win here after I hyped his ZvZ. It'd suck if he missed code S by losing to Shine of all people. Especially since he's 0-7 in HotS ZvZ.
I love LGIM, but I cant lie that I want Shine to win both games and Hurricane to win his.
On August 15 2013 20:33 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Figures Losira would lose against the worst player in the group now when he's 1 game away from code S..
make a goddamn Overseer...
This is Shine. This is what he does.
On August 15 2013 20:33 KristofferAG wrote: i wish go.go was in this group
Teehee.
Maybe Jjakji can fill those shoes. Except the match-fixing of course. :[
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0)
0%
27 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Shine vs Kangho?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0)
0%
27 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Shine vs Kangho?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Voting 5, because you can't see this many throws in a single game.
I wish Losira would have just cleaned that stupid roach runby at his 4th, he let 8 burrowed roaches do way too much damage, and even more damning he didn't clean up the lone roach blocking the expo...
On August 15 2013 20:39 ETisME wrote: who said ZvZ is boring, WHOOOOOO
unfortunately not every ZvZ is that exciting and back and forth , you have to be honest. BTW can someone explain me, why he didn't go to hife and 3-3, wouldn't that have paid off very soon?
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0)
0%
27 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Shine vs Kangho?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On August 15 2013 20:45 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Destroy Effort. Lose to Shine.
Somehow I knew that'd happen :/
Maybe this is why:
On August 15 2013 20:45 Lonyo wrote: I can't believe Bisu lost to Shine. I can't believe Bisu lost to Shine. Again. I can't believe Bisu lost to Shine. Yet again.
On August 15 2013 20:39 ETisME wrote: who said ZvZ is boring, WHOOOOOO
unfortunately not every ZvZ is that exciting and back and forth , you have to be honest. BTW can someone explain me, why he didn't go to hife and 3-3, wouldn't that have paid off very soon?
The kill the fourth roach runby followed by a 30 minute burrowed roach block on the fourth base all game long... wtf losira you lazy shit player clean that up... that game was pathetic.
On August 15 2013 20:39 ETisME wrote: who said ZvZ is boring, WHOOOOOO
unfortunately not every ZvZ is that exciting and back and forth , you have to be honest. BTW can someone explain me, why he didn't go to hife and 3-3, wouldn't that have paid off very soon?
Even the last game was kind boring, it was a lot of blob wars, with a sprinkling of fungal, and it was just ugly, thank goodness that Losira and Shine decided to play a game of throws and entertain us at least a bit, but at the moment I find ZvZ really boring, even though Muta vs Muta was stale from a variety point of view at least it was action packed and dynamic.
On August 15 2013 20:43 LimitSEA wrote: Omg. I can't believe KangHo lost to Shine.
The disbelief fuels shine.
But it's Shine. Jesus. What planet am I living on?
Somehow, Maru is the OSL champion.
It's the planet we live on.
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
On August 15 2013 20:43 LimitSEA wrote: Omg. I can't believe KangHo lost to Shine.
The disbelief fuels shine.
But it's Shine. Jesus. What planet am I living on?
Somehow, Maru is the OSL champion.
It's the planet we live on.
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Seed was beating pretty much everyone around that time, though. He was the sole reason LG-IM won IPTL over Taeja + Spares.
He played well it just didn't look too inspiring or interesting. Sniper was also raping team leagues left and right so they're comparable in that sense.
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (2)
7%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (2)
7%
27 total votes
Your vote: Recommend EffOrt vs Hurricane?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (2)
7%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (2)
7%
27 total votes
Your vote: Recommend EffOrt vs Hurricane?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On August 15 2013 20:43 LimitSEA wrote: Omg. I can't believe KangHo lost to Shine.
The disbelief fuels shine.
But it's Shine. Jesus. What planet am I living on?
Somehow, Maru is the OSL champion.
It's the planet we live on.
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
On August 15 2013 21:00 Fyzar wrote: Why the fuck is he not making a probe lol, what is he going to use the 60 minerals for -_-.
Didn't really matter. Effort could just sacrifice one of his mutalisks to kill the single probe over and over again - and Hurricane had only 1 probe left and he'd never get another one out. The game was over quite long ago.
On August 15 2013 20:43 LimitSEA wrote: Omg. I can't believe KangHo lost to Shine.
The disbelief fuels shine.
But it's Shine. Jesus. What planet am I living on?
Somehow, Maru is the OSL champion.
It's the planet we live on.
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Indeed, the Coca thing and that bizarre base race against supernova made jjakji the strangest champion of all time IMO
On August 15 2013 21:03 Yello wrote: so if Jjakji wins, he and Losira advance since Losira won against both Hurricane and Effort. If JJakji loses we have the most ridiculous tie ever
On August 15 2013 20:43 LimitSEA wrote: Omg. I can't believe KangHo lost to Shine.
The disbelief fuels shine.
But it's Shine. Jesus. What planet am I living on?
Somehow, Maru is the OSL champion.
It's the planet we live on.
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
On August 15 2013 21:03 Yello wrote: so if Jjakji wins, he and Losira advance since Losira won against both Hurricane and Effort. If JJakji loses we have the most ridiculous tie ever
5-way-tie or Jjakji/KangHo advances. Win-Win
I never thought I'd cheer for Jumanji, but GOGOGO. Let the jungle music begin.
On August 15 2013 21:04 Taf the Ghost wrote: What's the tie-breaker like if we get a 5-way? Do we have play a "play until you lose" system, with the first to 3 victories goes in?
On August 15 2013 20:43 LimitSEA wrote: Omg. I can't believe KangHo lost to Shine.
The disbelief fuels shine.
But it's Shine. Jesus. What planet am I living on?
Somehow, Maru is the OSL champion.
It's the planet we live on.
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Don't disrespect Seed and Jjakji, they played brilliantly to win their respective championships and had to go trough tough opponents. Seed's run in particular was amazing, defeated Symbol trough a reverse sweep 3-2, defeated Byun the same way, 3-2 displaying incredible mental fortitude and patience and in the grand final he dismantled MC displaying superior knowledge of PvP at the time and brilliant micro.
Too many people here have the nerve to downplay the efforts of the past champions, they may have only shone for 2 months but they where the best players of those two months, give them the respect they deserve.
On topic, interesting game from effort and Hurricane, really crazy scenario, its a bit too bad effort didn't read the situation better, I think he could have crushed that 2 base push, though I guess Hurricane was banking on forcing lots of units and recalling out if the situation went sour. Still glad effort won.
On August 15 2013 21:04 Taf the Ghost wrote: What's the tie-breaker like if we get a 5-way? Do we have play a "play until you lose" system, with the first to 3 victories goes in?
It's just starting all over again :-P So... the same system as right now.
On August 15 2013 21:05 Raambo11 wrote: Why is there not a 3 way tie even if Jjakji wins? The other day we had a 3 way tie even though one of the players had a map win over the other two..really confusing
Depends on the Head-2-head results. And KangHo would have won against the other 2.
On August 15 2013 21:04 Taf the Ghost wrote: What's the tie-breaker like if we get a 5-way? Do we have play a "play until you lose" system, with the first to 3 victories goes in?
Basically you turn the clock 3 hours and start over.
On August 15 2013 20:43 LimitSEA wrote: Omg. I can't believe KangHo lost to Shine.
The disbelief fuels shine.
But it's Shine. Jesus. What planet am I living on?
Somehow, Maru is the OSL champion.
It's the planet we live on.
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Don't disrespect Seed and Jjakji, they played brilliantly to win their respective championships and had to go trough tough opponents. Seed's run in particular was amazing, defeated Symbol trough a reverse sweep 3-2, defeated Byun the same way, 3-2 displaying incredible mental fortitude and patience and in the grand final he dismantled MC displaying superior knowledge of PvP at the time and brilliant micro.
Too many people here have the nerve to downplay the efforts of the past champions, they may have only shone for 2 months but they where the best players of those two months, give them the respect they deserve.
On topic, interesting game from effort and Hurricane, really crazy scenario, its a bit too bad effort didn't read the situation better, I think he could have crushed that 2 base push, though I guess Hurricane was banking on forcing lots of units and recalling out if the situation went sour. Still glad effort won.
Seed vs Symbol was incredibly sloppy and it's a shame MC wasn't in shape when the finals were played.
Jjakji had an insanely lucky run to even reach the finals in the first place, riddled with mediocre and poor games, although to his only credit the finals was fantastic.
On August 15 2013 20:43 LimitSEA wrote: Omg. I can't believe KangHo lost to Shine.
The disbelief fuels shine.
But it's Shine. Jesus. What planet am I living on?
Somehow, Maru is the OSL champion.
It's the planet we live on.
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Don't disrespect Seed and Jjakji, they played brilliantly to win their respective championships and had to go trough tough opponents. Seed's run in particular was amazing, defeated Symbol trough a reverse sweep 3-2, defeated Byun the same way, 3-2 displaying incredible mental fortitude and patience and in the grand final he dismantled MC displaying superior knowledge of PvP at the time and brilliant micro.
Too many people here have the nerve to downplay the efforts of the past champions, they may have only shone for 2 months but they where the best players of those two months, give them the respect they deserve.
On topic, interesting game from effort and Hurricane, really crazy scenario, its a bit too bad effort didn't read the situation better, I think he could have crushed that 2 base push, though I guess Hurricane was banking on forcing lots of units and recalling out if the situation went sour. Still glad effort won.
Jjakji and leenock still hold the title IMO of best finals as well, Jjakji was truly the best player in the world at the time
On August 15 2013 20:43 LimitSEA wrote: Omg. I can't believe KangHo lost to Shine.
The disbelief fuels shine.
But it's Shine. Jesus. What planet am I living on?
Somehow, Maru is the OSL champion.
It's the planet we live on.
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Indeed, the Coca thing and that bizarre base race against supernova made jjakji the strangest champion of all time IMO
Sniper is still bottom of the barrel for me. He's like the least distinguishable zerg I've ever seen. His run was better than Jjakji's but worse than Seed's. Yet, unlike Seed he did stick around for just a little bit longer.
Still, of the 3 Jjakji has had the greatest longevity of the 3 considering he stayed in code S a little bit longer after winning, almost solely kept NSH alive, made a decent run in Iron Squid, and won a fairly good tournament to qualify for IPL4. It might sound like I'm desperate, but really all 3 of those champs have so few results I need something to distinguish them with.
On August 15 2013 20:43 LimitSEA wrote: Omg. I can't believe KangHo lost to Shine.
The disbelief fuels shine.
But it's Shine. Jesus. What planet am I living on?
Somehow, Maru is the OSL champion.
It's the planet we live on.
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Don't disrespect Seed and Jjakji, they played brilliantly to win their respective championships and had to go trough tough opponents. Seed's run in particular was amazing, defeated Symbol trough a reverse sweep 3-2, defeated Byun the same way, 3-2 displaying incredible mental fortitude and patience and in the grand final he dismantled MC displaying superior knowledge of PvP at the time and brilliant micro.
Too many people here have the nerve to downplay the efforts of the past champions, they may have only shone for 2 months but they where the best players of those two months, give them the respect they deserve.
On topic, interesting game from effort and Hurricane, really crazy scenario, its a bit too bad effort didn't read the situation better, I think he could have crushed that 2 base push, though I guess Hurricane was banking on forcing lots of units and recalling out if the situation went sour. Still glad effort won.
"superior knowledge of PvP", aka 4 gate.
I agree 100% though, it's easy to laugh at "washed up" champions now, but a win is a win, and no matter how you get there, winning code s is god damn hard.
No-one is saying that Seed/Jjakji/Sniper etc are better than Mvp. But at the time of their respective championships, they were.
On August 15 2013 20:44 Fusilero wrote: [quote] The disbelief fuels shine.
But it's Shine. Jesus. What planet am I living on?
Somehow, Maru is the OSL champion.
It's the planet we live on.
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
Jjakji-Leenock still delivered the best finals in terms of games. He did get good draws and lucky consequences. Then again, so did Sniper. Seed actually beat very good opponents and various races, etc. At least Jjakji is more relevant than Sniper now.
On August 15 2013 21:00 Fyzar wrote: Why the fuck is he not making a probe lol, what is he going to use the 60 minerals for -_-.
or the 220 he had when the contain started? But he had a changeling in his main, if he makes a probe, Zerg sends 1 muta over...
Ohh, I didn't see a changeling ~ that changes it a bit then I guess.
yeah. and there was always the thread of mutas without large ammounts of cannons Zerg could always go for the snipe, recharches/heals muta -> snipes another probe. Yes, he could have tried it, but he had to gamble: if he loses the probes it was worth nothing. actually i wonder why Zerg didn't send 3 or 4 mutas over, just to slowly kill buildings. Protoss ofc tried to dry out the Zerg, I'll never understand the last attack
On August 15 2013 20:43 LimitSEA wrote: Omg. I can't believe KangHo lost to Shine.
The disbelief fuels shine.
But it's Shine. Jesus. What planet am I living on?
Somehow, Maru is the OSL champion.
It's the planet we live on.
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Don't disrespect Seed and Jjakji, they played brilliantly to win their respective championships and had to go trough tough opponents. Seed's run in particular was amazing, defeated Symbol trough a reverse sweep 3-2, defeated Byun the same way, 3-2 displaying incredible mental fortitude and patience and in the grand final he dismantled MC displaying superior knowledge of PvP at the time and brilliant micro.
Too many people here have the nerve to downplay the efforts of the past champions, they may have only shone for 2 months but they where the best players of those two months, give them the respect they deserve.
On topic, interesting game from effort and Hurricane, really crazy scenario, its a bit too bad effort didn't read the situation better, I think he could have crushed that 2 base push, though I guess Hurricane was banking on forcing lots of units and recalling out if the situation went sour. Still glad effort won.
Jjakji and leenock still hold the title IMO of best finals as well, Jjakji was truly the best player in the world at the time
At the time of the finals? Sure. Were the finals amazing? Sure. But people tend to forget how incredibly poor and lucky the rest of his run was.
On August 15 2013 20:44 Fusilero wrote: [quote] The disbelief fuels shine.
But it's Shine. Jesus. What planet am I living on?
Somehow, Maru is the OSL champion.
It's the planet we live on.
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
jjakji shows the best TvZ on the planet. -> "he would have lost to Coca" ok...
On August 15 2013 20:44 Fusilero wrote: [quote] The disbelief fuels shine.
But it's Shine. Jesus. What planet am I living on?
Somehow, Maru is the OSL champion.
It's the planet we live on.
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
Sure, with CoCa in it there's a high chance jjakji wouldn't have made it at all, I'm not gonna argue that, but I disagree on the Oz games. Eh.
Man I'm torn, on the one hand I want Jjakji to win so he and KangHo to get into Code S, but on the other hand I really want the insanity of a 5 way tie to ensue.
On August 15 2013 20:46 LimitSEA wrote: [quote] But it's Shine. Jesus. What planet am I living on?
Somehow, Maru is the OSL champion.
It's the planet we live on.
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
Jjakji-Leenock still delivered the best finals in terms of games. He did get good draws and lucky consequences. Then again, so did Sniper. Seed actually beat very good opponents and various races, etc. At least Jjakji is more relevant than Sniper now.
Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?
On top of all that he was completely destroying team leagues both online and offline (GSTL) during 2012.
So no, I really don't see your point here, sorry. :/
On August 15 2013 20:43 LimitSEA wrote: Omg. I can't believe KangHo lost to Shine.
The disbelief fuels shine.
But it's Shine. Jesus. What planet am I living on?
Somehow, Maru is the OSL champion.
It's the planet we live on.
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Don't disrespect Seed and Jjakji, they played brilliantly to win their respective championships and had to go trough tough opponents. Seed's run in particular was amazing, defeated Symbol trough a reverse sweep 3-2, defeated Byun the same way, 3-2 displaying incredible mental fortitude and patience and in the grand final he dismantled MC displaying superior knowledge of PvP at the time and brilliant micro.
Too many people here have the nerve to downplay the efforts of the past champions, they may have only shone for 2 months but they where the best players of those two months, give them the respect they deserve.
On topic, interesting game from effort and Hurricane, really crazy scenario, its a bit too bad effort didn't read the situation better, I think he could have crushed that 2 base push, though I guess Hurricane was banking on forcing lots of units and recalling out if the situation went sour. Still glad effort won.
"superior knowledge of PvP", aka 4 gate.
I agree 100% though, it's easy to laugh at "washed up" champions now, but a win is a win, and no matter how you get there, winning code s is god damn hard.
No-one is saying that Seed/Jjakji/Sniper etc are better than Mvp. But at the time of their respective championships, they were.
On August 15 2013 20:48 DidYuhim wrote: [quote] Somehow, Maru is the OSL champion.
It's the planet we live on.
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
Jjakji-Leenock still delivered the best finals in terms of games. He did get good draws and lucky consequences. Then again, so did Sniper. Seed actually beat very good opponents and various races, etc. At least Jjakji is more relevant than Sniper now.
Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?
On top of all that he was completely destroying team leagues both online and offline (GSTL) during 2012.
So no, I really don't see your point here, sorry. :/
Patch 1.5.3 was the best draw you could get for a Zerg player.
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (12)
55%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (4)
18%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (3)
14%
★★★ - Good game (2)
9%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (1)
5%
22 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Shine vs Jjakji?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On August 15 2013 20:49 MasterOfPuppets wrote: [quote]
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
Jjakji-Leenock still delivered the best finals in terms of games. He did get good draws and lucky consequences. Then again, so did Sniper. Seed actually beat very good opponents and various races, etc. At least Jjakji is more relevant than Sniper now.
Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?
On top of all that he was completely destroying team leagues both online and offline (GSTL) during 2012.
So no, I really don't see your point here, sorry. :/
Patch 1.5.3 was the best draw you could get for a Zerg player.
On August 15 2013 20:48 DidYuhim wrote: [quote] Somehow, Maru is the OSL champion.
It's the planet we live on.
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
Jjakji-Leenock still delivered the best finals in terms of games. He did get good draws and lucky consequences. Then again, so did Sniper. Seed actually beat very good opponents and various races, etc. At least Jjakji is more relevant than Sniper now.
Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?
On top of all that he was completely destroying team leagues both online and offline (GSTL) during 2012.
So no, I really don't see your point here, sorry. :/
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (12)
55%
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (4)
18%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (3)
14%
★★★ - Good game (2)
9%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (1)
5%
22 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Shine vs Jjakji?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On August 15 2013 20:50 DidYuhim wrote: [quote] Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
Jjakji-Leenock still delivered the best finals in terms of games. He did get good draws and lucky consequences. Then again, so did Sniper. Seed actually beat very good opponents and various races, etc. At least Jjakji is more relevant than Sniper now.
Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?
On top of all that he was completely destroying team leagues both online and offline (GSTL) during 2012.
So no, I really don't see your point here, sorry. :/
Patch 1.5.3 was the best draw you could get for a Zerg player.
On August 15 2013 20:49 MasterOfPuppets wrote: [quote]
Still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL.
Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
Jjakji-Leenock still delivered the best finals in terms of games. He did get good draws and lucky consequences. Then again, so did Sniper. Seed actually beat very good opponents and various races, etc. At least Jjakji is more relevant than Sniper now.
Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?
On top of all that he was completely destroying team leagues both online and offline (GSTL) during 2012.
So no, I really don't see your point here, sorry. :/
Zerg domination and shortened season?
What does Zerg domination have to do with anything? :/
Would you discredit Mvp and MMA's championships as well because of Terran domination?
On August 15 2013 20:50 DidYuhim wrote: [quote] Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
Jjakji-Leenock still delivered the best finals in terms of games. He did get good draws and lucky consequences. Then again, so did Sniper. Seed actually beat very good opponents and various races, etc. At least Jjakji is more relevant than Sniper now.
Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?
On top of all that he was completely destroying team leagues both online and offline (GSTL) during 2012.
So no, I really don't see your point here, sorry. :/
Zerg domination and shortened season?
What does Zerg domination have to do with anything? :/
Would you discredit Mvp and MMA's championships as well because of Terran domination?
Nope, I'd actually agree with Ver on this prospective.
On August 15 2013 21:16 c0ldfusion wrote: why are these up and down matches played at the end of the season rather than the beginning of the next season?
Is there a difference?
I'd assume it's because it's nice to have a set of players in each league at the start of each season.
Am I the only one who constantly gets this Halo AD on twitch and it is unwatchable? Every other ad runs perfectly smooth for me but the halo one has massive stutters and I can only hear/see something new every like 5 seconds..
On August 15 2013 21:16 c0ldfusion wrote: why are these up and down matches played at the end of the season rather than the beginning of the next season?
You can ask that about challenger league too, they are basically just qualifier for next season's premier league.
On August 15 2013 20:50 DidYuhim wrote: [quote] Nah, it's somewhere around Sniper winning GSL.
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
Jjakji-Leenock still delivered the best finals in terms of games. He did get good draws and lucky consequences. Then again, so did Sniper. Seed actually beat very good opponents and various races, etc. At least Jjakji is more relevant than Sniper now.
Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?
On top of all that he was completely destroying team leagues both online and offline (GSTL) during 2012.
So no, I really don't see your point here, sorry. :/
Patch 1.5.3 was the best draw you could get for a Zerg player.
I guess Life's win doesn't count either then.
If you don't understand the difference between abusing the shit out of BL/Infestor and killing everyone with Zergling run-bys then you should check a doctor.
On August 15 2013 21:16 c0ldfusion wrote: why are these up and down matches played at the end of the season rather than the beginning of the next season?
They actually are at the beginning of the next season.
On August 15 2013 21:16 c0ldfusion wrote: why are these up and down matches played at the end of the season rather than the beginning of the next season?
Probably so that they can do group selection, then they can all start practicing.
On August 15 2013 20:51 MasterOfPuppets wrote: [quote]
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
Jjakji-Leenock still delivered the best finals in terms of games. He did get good draws and lucky consequences. Then again, so did Sniper. Seed actually beat very good opponents and various races, etc. At least Jjakji is more relevant than Sniper now.
Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?
On top of all that he was completely destroying team leagues both online and offline (GSTL) during 2012.
So no, I really don't see your point here, sorry. :/
Patch 1.5.3 was the best draw you could get for a Zerg player.
I guess Life's win doesn't count either then.
If you don't understand the difference between abusing the shit out of BL/Infestor and killing everyone with Zergling run-bys then you should check a doctor.
Yes, how dare I suggest that the player who beat some the actual best players in the world at his time all the while getting 3/4/5 kills in GSTL per match is actually good.
No amount of whine would change that. If it was Symbol or ByuL or LosirA that actually won, you may have a point.
On August 15 2013 21:16 c0ldfusion wrote: why are these up and down matches played at the end of the season rather than the beginning of the next season?
That is only a matter of perspective. Next season really soon
On August 15 2013 21:16 c0ldfusion wrote: why are these up and down matches played at the end of the season rather than the beginning of the next season?
They actually are at the beginning of the next season.
Actually pretty sure they're classified as being part of season 2. Its all very silly...
On August 15 2013 20:54 KristofferAG wrote: [quote] Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
Jjakji-Leenock still delivered the best finals in terms of games. He did get good draws and lucky consequences. Then again, so did Sniper. Seed actually beat very good opponents and various races, etc. At least Jjakji is more relevant than Sniper now.
Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?
On top of all that he was completely destroying team leagues both online and offline (GSTL) during 2012.
So no, I really don't see your point here, sorry. :/
Patch 1.5.3 was the best draw you could get for a Zerg player.
I guess Life's win doesn't count either then.
If you don't understand the difference between abusing the shit out of BL/Infestor and killing everyone with Zergling run-bys then you should check a doctor.
Yes, how dare I suggest that the player who beat some the actual best players in the world at his time all the while getting 3/4/5 kills in GSTL per match is actually good.
No amount of whine would change that. If it was Symbol or ByuL or LosirA that actually won, you may have a point.
On August 15 2013 20:54 KristofferAG wrote: [quote] Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
Jjakji-Leenock still delivered the best finals in terms of games. He did get good draws and lucky consequences. Then again, so did Sniper. Seed actually beat very good opponents and various races, etc. At least Jjakji is more relevant than Sniper now.
Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?
On top of all that he was completely destroying team leagues both online and offline (GSTL) during 2012.
So no, I really don't see your point here, sorry. :/
Patch 1.5.3 was the best draw you could get for a Zerg player.
I guess Life's win doesn't count either then.
If you don't understand the difference between abusing the shit out of BL/Infestor and killing everyone with Zergling run-bys then you should check a doctor.
Yes, how dare I suggest that the player who beat some the actual best players in the world at his time all the while getting 3/4/5 kills in GSTL per match is actually good.
No amount of whine would change that. If it was Symbol or ByuL or LosirA that actually won, you may have a point.
Symbol did nearly win and was doing well himself. In fact, Symbol is a better player than Life at the moment.
On August 15 2013 21:16 c0ldfusion wrote: why are these up and down matches played at the end of the season rather than the beginning of the next season?
They actually are at the beginning of the next season.
Actually pretty sure they're classified as being part of season 2. Its all very silly...
On August 15 2013 20:56 MasterOfPuppets wrote: [quote]
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
Jjakji-Leenock still delivered the best finals in terms of games. He did get good draws and lucky consequences. Then again, so did Sniper. Seed actually beat very good opponents and various races, etc. At least Jjakji is more relevant than Sniper now.
Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?
On top of all that he was completely destroying team leagues both online and offline (GSTL) during 2012.
So no, I really don't see your point here, sorry. :/
Patch 1.5.3 was the best draw you could get for a Zerg player.
I guess Life's win doesn't count either then.
If you don't understand the difference between abusing the shit out of BL/Infestor and killing everyone with Zergling run-bys then you should check a doctor.
Yes, how dare I suggest that the player who beat some the actual best players in the world at his time all the while getting 3/4/5 kills in GSTL per match is actually good.
No amount of whine would change that. If it was Symbol or ByuL or LosirA that actually won, you may have a point.
Symbol did nearly win and was doing well himself. In fact, Symbol is a better player than Life at the moment.
On August 15 2013 20:51 MasterOfPuppets wrote: [quote]
And Sniper winning GSL is still better than Jjakji or Seed winning GSL. Because Sniper actually played very well that season.
Implying that jjakji didn't play really well and just lucked his way to championship?
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
Jjakji-Leenock still delivered the best finals in terms of games. He did get good draws and lucky consequences. Then again, so did Sniper. Seed actually beat very good opponents and various races, etc. At least Jjakji is more relevant than Sniper now.
Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?
On top of all that he was completely destroying team leagues both online and offline (GSTL) during 2012.
So no, I really don't see your point here, sorry. :/
Patch 1.5.3 was the best draw you could get for a Zerg player.
I guess Life's win doesn't count either then.
If you don't understand the difference between abusing the shit out of BL/Infestor and killing everyone with Zergling run-bys then you should check a doctor.
I'm not saying Sniper is Life, but this is still crap. In his series against Ryung, Sniper only built BLs in the very last game (edit: and he was WAY ahead by that point). Ryung's whining and revisionist TL posters have tainted his run.
On August 15 2013 20:56 MasterOfPuppets wrote: [quote]
With the sole exception of the finals, that is very much what I am implying.
I mean I give NesTea a lot of flak but at least his wins were always convincing. Jjakji barely scraped through to reach the finals and delivered a lot of mediocre/uninspired games.
Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
Jjakji-Leenock still delivered the best finals in terms of games. He did get good draws and lucky consequences. Then again, so did Sniper. Seed actually beat very good opponents and various races, etc. At least Jjakji is more relevant than Sniper now.
Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?
On top of all that he was completely destroying team leagues both online and offline (GSTL) during 2012.
So no, I really don't see your point here, sorry. :/
Patch 1.5.3 was the best draw you could get for a Zerg player.
I guess Life's win doesn't count either then.
If you don't understand the difference between abusing the shit out of BL/Infestor and killing everyone with Zergling run-bys then you should check a doctor.
Yes, how dare I suggest that the player who beat some the actual best players in the world at his time all the while getting 3/4/5 kills in GSTL per match is actually good.
No amount of whine would change that. If it was Symbol or ByuL or LosirA that actually won, you may have a point.
Symbol did nearly win and was doing well himself. In fact, Symbol is a better player than Life at the moment.
I'm just saying, of all the Zergs that were on the rise at the time, pwning nerds in GSTL and what not, Sniper was the only one who made it into the Ro8 and then won.
Sniper didn't abuse BL/Infestor. In fact, I'm pretty sure Life did it more times than Sniper when Mvp realised that the key to beating Life was massing BFH, and people still consider (and considered) Life one of the most entertaining Zergs to watch. Sniper played a lot of cool games without the Brood Lord combo, but for some reason people forget that =/
On August 15 2013 21:25 Zealously wrote: Sniper didn't abuse BL/Infestor. In fact, I'm pretty sure Life did it more times than Sniper when Mvp realised that the key to beating Life was massing BFH, and people still consider (and considered) Life one of the most entertaining Zergs to watch. Sniper played a lot of cool games without the Brood Lord combo, but for some reason people forget that =/
Herd mentality will do that to people. And not watching GSTL nearly enough.
On August 15 2013 21:25 Zealously wrote: Sniper didn't abuse BL/Infestor. In fact, I'm pretty sure Life did it more times than Sniper when Mvp realised that the key to beating Life was massing BFH, and people still consider (and considered) Life one of the most entertaining Zergs to watch. Sniper played a lot of cool games without the Brood Lord combo, but for some reason people forget that =/
Yeah I agree, people keep forgetting that Sniper comes from the school of MVP, a team known to produce zerg players that really love mutalisk play, Sniper used them in both ZvT and ZvP at a time when playing ling infestor was just straight out better.
On August 15 2013 21:02 KristofferAG wrote: [quote] Except it's bullshit. His game v Killer in the Ro32? Awesome, even if he ended up losing, relentless. His game v Supernova in the same group is still one of the most amazing TvTs ever. Sure he lucked out in the Ro16 and only had to beat Gumi, and both his games v Mvp and Gumi were pretty scrappy and bad. But there's no way you can say his games v Oz weren't interesting at least, and even if he stomped Puzzle it was not because of Puzzle being bad, but jjakji being good.
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
Jjakji-Leenock still delivered the best finals in terms of games. He did get good draws and lucky consequences. Then again, so did Sniper. Seed actually beat very good opponents and various races, etc. At least Jjakji is more relevant than Sniper now.
Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?
On top of all that he was completely destroying team leagues both online and offline (GSTL) during 2012.
So no, I really don't see your point here, sorry. :/
Patch 1.5.3 was the best draw you could get for a Zerg player.
I guess Life's win doesn't count either then.
If you don't understand the difference between abusing the shit out of BL/Infestor and killing everyone with Zergling run-bys then you should check a doctor.
Yes, how dare I suggest that the player who beat some the actual best players in the world at his time all the while getting 3/4/5 kills in GSTL per match is actually good.
No amount of whine would change that. If it was Symbol or ByuL or LosirA that actually won, you may have a point.
Symbol did nearly win and was doing well himself. In fact, Symbol is a better player than Life at the moment.
I'm just saying, of all the Zergs that were on the rise at the time, pwning nerds in GSTL and what not, Sniper was the only one who made it into the Ro8 and then won.
Per Ver's prospective, Terran domination was your usual (consistent) suspects, Zerg not so much. They are still very good players, Sniper is still very good, but he was definitely lucky. Jjakji was probably luckier, but Jjakji is still the most relevant.
On August 15 2013 21:25 Zealously wrote: Sniper didn't abuse BL/Infestor. In fact, I'm pretty sure Life did it more times than Sniper when Mvp realised that the key to beating Life was massing BFH, and people still consider (and considered) Life one of the most entertaining Zergs to watch. Sniper played a lot of cool games without the Brood Lord combo, but for some reason people forget that =/
MVP vs life was one of the worst finals IMO because of the fact every game was decided by whether or not Mvp could kill 20-30 drones in the first attack. He went BFH into mech 7 games in a row and went 3-4 with it.
On August 15 2013 21:18 Destructicon wrote: So jjakji is now the first Code S champion to return to Code S after falling into Code B?
That's right
there's still hope left for MMA!
That's the first time someone talked down WCS EU this hard.
uhrm, exactly how? There are just more tough opponents in Korea than EU. So it would bring the fanboy to the maximum if he actually took out the likes of Innovation/Soulkey.
On August 15 2013 21:04 MasterOfPuppets wrote: [quote]
I disagree. Puzzle played like shit (like in every other Ro8 appearance he had) and the games vs Oz were some of the worst PvT I've ever watched. On paper Oz should've won that 3-0, but he made lots of mistakes and ended up losing. And I guarantee that if CoCa had took part in Code S Jjakji would have never made it to Playoffs.
Jjakji-Leenock still delivered the best finals in terms of games. He did get good draws and lucky consequences. Then again, so did Sniper. Seed actually beat very good opponents and various races, etc. At least Jjakji is more relevant than Sniper now.
Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?
On top of all that he was completely destroying team leagues both online and offline (GSTL) during 2012.
So no, I really don't see your point here, sorry. :/
Patch 1.5.3 was the best draw you could get for a Zerg player.
I guess Life's win doesn't count either then.
If you don't understand the difference between abusing the shit out of BL/Infestor and killing everyone with Zergling run-bys then you should check a doctor.
Yes, how dare I suggest that the player who beat some the actual best players in the world at his time all the while getting 3/4/5 kills in GSTL per match is actually good.
No amount of whine would change that. If it was Symbol or ByuL or LosirA that actually won, you may have a point.
Symbol did nearly win and was doing well himself. In fact, Symbol is a better player than Life at the moment.
I'm just saying, of all the Zergs that were on the rise at the time, pwning nerds in GSTL and what not, Sniper was the only one who made it into the Ro8 and then won.
Per Ver's prospective, Terran domination was your usual (consistent) suspects, Zerg not so much. They are still very good players, Sniper is still very good, but he was definitely lucky. Jjakji was probably luckier, but Jjakji is still the most relevant.
Wouldn't call players like TOP and IMHappy "the usual suspects" considering those were the peak moments of their respective careers never to be replicated again.
Also let me quote myself here:
"Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?"
On August 15 2013 21:25 Zealously wrote: Sniper didn't abuse BL/Infestor. In fact, I'm pretty sure Life did it more times than Sniper when Mvp realised that the key to beating Life was massing BFH, and people still consider (and considered) Life one of the most entertaining Zergs to watch. Sniper played a lot of cool games without the Brood Lord combo, but for some reason people forget that =/
Jjakji-Leenock still delivered the best finals in terms of games. He did get good draws and lucky consequences. Then again, so did Sniper. Seed actually beat very good opponents and various races, etc. At least Jjakji is more relevant than Sniper now.
Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?
On top of all that he was completely destroying team leagues both online and offline (GSTL) during 2012.
So no, I really don't see your point here, sorry. :/
Patch 1.5.3 was the best draw you could get for a Zerg player.
I guess Life's win doesn't count either then.
If you don't understand the difference between abusing the shit out of BL/Infestor and killing everyone with Zergling run-bys then you should check a doctor.
Yes, how dare I suggest that the player who beat some the actual best players in the world at his time all the while getting 3/4/5 kills in GSTL per match is actually good.
No amount of whine would change that. If it was Symbol or ByuL or LosirA that actually won, you may have a point.
Symbol did nearly win and was doing well himself. In fact, Symbol is a better player than Life at the moment.
I'm just saying, of all the Zergs that were on the rise at the time, pwning nerds in GSTL and what not, Sniper was the only one who made it into the Ro8 and then won.
Per Ver's prospective, Terran domination was your usual (consistent) suspects, Zerg not so much. They are still very good players, Sniper is still very good, but he was definitely lucky. Jjakji was probably luckier, but Jjakji is still the most relevant.
Wouldn't call players like TOP and IMHappy "the usual suspects" considering those were the peak moments of their respective careers never to be replicated again.
Also let me quote myself here:
"Sniper got good draws? You think MarineKing, sHy, Seed himself, then Bogus, Polt and PartinG are good draws? Leenock, the infinitely underrated Ryung and then Hyun? This is what you call a good draw?"
Wherein lies the luck?
Never said he had a lucky draw, he had a lucky timing, a perfect storm. Happy never made it to the finals, only TOP did, other than that the top was relatively consistent. Heck even TOP was a pretty good/consistent player before that finals and Happy hung around Code S Ro32-16 for a very very long time. Sniper is still the flukiest out of himself-Seed-Jjakji, for whatever reason, he fell the fastest and hasn't done anything since. I actually think he's a pretty decent player, and have more hope for him than Seed atm, but for whatever reason he's shitting the bed.
On August 15 2013 21:18 Destructicon wrote: So jjakji is now the first Code S champion to return to Code S after falling into Code B?
That's right
there's still hope left for MMA!
That's the first time someone talked down WCS EU this hard.
uhrm, exactly how? There are just more tough opponents in Korea than EU. So it would bring the fanboy to the maximum if he actually took out the likes of Innovation/Soulkey.
As MMA is right now playing in WCS EU, and not WCS KR.
On August 15 2013 21:18 Destructicon wrote: So jjakji is now the first Code S champion to return to Code S after falling into Code B?
That's right
there's still hope left for MMA!
That's the first time someone talked down WCS EU this hard.
uhrm, exactly how? There are just more tough opponents in Korea than EU. So it would bring the fanboy to the maximum if he actually took out the likes of Innovation/Soulkey.
As MMA is right now playing in WCS EU, and not WCS KR.
So, Code B = WCS EU.
well, technically, everybody not in Code A/S of Korea is in Code B by this measure. But good luck trying to convince somebody that Polt is actually a "code B" player by skill. (Jumping to polt because his skill clearly is higher than MMA atm)
On August 15 2013 21:25 Zealously wrote: Sniper didn't abuse BL/Infestor.
What I remember of Sniper in Bo3/Bo5 was him doing BL/infestor for the first game or the first two games, in order to get an advantage, then proceed to not play bl infestor for a while, and if the other player caught on, use bl infestor again on the last match. You can look at the semifinals vs Ryung (well, Ryung did some all-ins so he didn't bl infest the first two games, but he specifically DIDN'T bl/infest in games 3 and 4, and then when it mattered, resorted back to what's working). I also remember him going for bl/infest two games in a row vs HerO at IPL, then winning game 3 with mutas. I'm pretty sure if he had lost game 3, he would have done something else in game 4, and then easily won game 5 by switching back to bl/infest.
I wasn't like outraged by it or anything, but I did think at the time that it was a dishonest way to play. That's why I sort of disliked him, not because he made Eve cry or anything stupid like that.
Terran and Protoss look very solid, but to me Zerg lacks in powerhouses. Besides SK and Symbol, there´s no one I would rate as a Code S mainstay.
I think DongRaeGu counts as a Code S mainstay considering he's been in 9 Code S seasons in a row.
Actually, shouldn't he be getting the NesTea award since he only spent a season in Code A during this OSL but managed to make his way back into Code S for this upcoming season (GSL)?
On August 15 2013 21:25 Zealously wrote: Sniper didn't abuse BL/Infestor.
What I remember of Sniper in Bo3/Bo5 was him doing BL/infestor for the first game or the first two games, in order to get an advantage, then proceed to not play bl infestor for a while, and if the other player caught on, use bl infestor again on the last match. You can look at the semifinals vs Ryung (well, Ryung did some all-ins so he didn't bl infest the first two games, but he specifically DIDN'T bl/infest in games 3 and 4, and then when it mattered, resorted back to what's working). I also remember him going for bl/infest two games in a row vs HerO at IPL, then winning game 3 with mutas. I'm pretty sure if he had lost game 3, he would have done something else in game 4, and then easily won game 5 by switching back to bl/infest.
I wasn't like outraged by it or anything, but I did think at the time that it was a dishonest way to play. That's why I sort of disliked him, not because he made Eve cry or anything stupid like that.
Did you also feel it was "dishonest" for Mvp to all-in Protosses during 2012 Season 2?
Terran and Protoss look very solid, but to me Zerg lacks in powerhouses. Besides SK and Symbol, there´s no one I would rate as a Code S mainstay.
I think DongRaeGu counts as a Code S mainstay considering he's been in 9 Code S seasons in a row.
Actually, shouldn't he be getting the NesTea award since he only spent a season in Code A during this OSL but managed to make his way back into Code S for this upcoming season (GSL)?
Yes, he will, and I´m aware of how weird it is not to consider him. It´s just that hasn´t looked like ro8 material for quite a while. But I hope he goes on a tear.
Terran and Protoss look very solid, but to me Zerg lacks in powerhouses. Besides SK and Symbol, there´s no one I would rate as a Code S mainstay.
I think DongRaeGu counts as a Code S mainstay considering he's been in 9 Code S seasons in a row.
Actually, shouldn't he be getting the NesTea award since he only spent a season in Code A during this OSL but managed to make his way back into Code S for this upcoming season (GSL)?
Yes, he will, and I´m aware of how weird it is not to consider him. It´s just that hasn´t looked like ro8 material for quite a while. But I hope he goes on a tear.
It's definitely an interesting season because currently none of these Zergs looks in form to take a championship (not even Soulkey ) but at the same time I think every single one of them is perfectly capable of reaching Ro16, and Soulkey/Symbol/hyvaa/soO/LosirA/DongRaeGu all have a very good chance of reaching Ro8 with proper preparation and some reasonable groups.
On August 15 2013 22:09 MasterOfPuppets wrote: Did you also feel it was "dishonest" for Mvp to all-in Protosses during 2012 Season 2?
Not at all, and I don't see how the two situations are related.
Because you're ragging on Sniper for doing what it takes to win when his non-standard play failed (heh, no props to him for even trying something non-standard). The two situations are extremely similar. Sniper was doing what it took to win. People were arguing that if not for BL/Infestor he would have gotten demolished. This may be true. Mvp was also doing what it took to win. People were rightfully arguing that if Mvp had played only macro games against PartinG/Sun/Squirtle he would have gotten demolished. This may also be true.
On August 15 2013 22:09 MasterOfPuppets wrote: Did you also feel it was "dishonest" for Mvp to all-in Protosses during 2012 Season 2?
Not at all, and I don't see how the two situations are related.
Because you're ragging on Sniper for doing what it takes to win when his non-standard play failed (heh, no props to him for even trying something non-standard). The two situations are extremely similar. Sniper was doing what it took to win. People were arguing that if not for BL/Infestor he would have gotten demolished. This may be true. Mvp was also doing what it took to win. People were rightfully arguing that if Mvp had played only macro games against PartinG/Sun/Squirtle he would have gotten demolished. This may also be true.
Do you see the double standard here?
I had no problems with him using BL/infesor when it counted. That's not dishonest, that's just using your tools. But going for other stuff when you're ahead because you can afford it... I'm not sure I enjoyed that, but what I'm clearly against (and what I was reacting to) is the notion that he should be remembered as a less bl/infest intensive person because he chose to do that.
On August 15 2013 22:41 bittman wrote: Ok so I've got:
Maru - 3-1 in U/D Life - 2-1 in U/D Seed - 3-1 in U/D (fun fact, MC was in the same U/D group with a 4-1 record over Seed)
Quite a few runner ups came through the system too. Symbol, Squirtle, MC.
Guess it's not as rare as I would have imagined haha
Calling it now, Jjakji will go 4-4, 4-4, 3-2, 4-3 and 4-3, delivering more bad games and winning another GSL. =(
As a Jjakji fan even I don't believe that. Still, maybe the foreigner team will strengthen him more than NSHS and he'll have a decent Code S run. I'd be happy to see him just make Ro16 tbh. That's where my expectations still are for him, even with some sort of resurgence in HotS.
On August 15 2013 22:50 monkybone wrote: interesting situation, considering that hurricane beat jjakji, and did not advance. Is that really fair?
Errr...yes? Jjakji was the winner of the group because he beat everyone else. Hurricane did not, and one of the people he was tied with had already beaten him. If all you need to do is beat the winner to get the spoils, then I believe Losira will be knocking on Maru's door for a trophy soon.
On August 15 2013 22:50 monkybone wrote: interesting situation, considering that hurricane beat jjakji, and did not advance. Is that really fair?
Yes.
Jjakji went 3-1.
Effort, Hurricane, and Losira were then all 2-2. Losira advances since he beat the other two.
thing is, hurricane went 2-2 like the others and was the only one to beat jjakji, who got the best score. it depends on how you see it
Head-to-head against Jjakji is irrelevant because he has the better score. Head-to-head is only relevant between tied players. This has always been the case in pretty much every tournament that I can remember.
On August 15 2013 22:50 monkybone wrote: interesting situation, considering that hurricane beat jjakji, and did not advance. Is that really fair?
Yes.
Jjakji went 3-1.
Effort, Hurricane, and Losira were then all 2-2. Losira advances since he beat the other two.
thing is, hurricane went 2-2 like the others and was the only one to beat jjakji, who got the best score. it depends on how you see it
Why do you some of you people have to over complicate things? If you're doing tiebreakers, it makes perfect sense to attempt to break the tie first without involving non-tied people. Jjakji wasn't tied. Don't involve him unless you can't break the tie between the three tied players otherwise. That's just unnecessary complication.
The head-to-head condition is entirely arbitrary. It does not show that Kangho played better than the other two. Guess what, he lost to both the better player of the day (jjakji) and the worse player of the day (shine). It is accepted because it is agreed upon by convention to save time, but to make the argument that it shows who is the better player is fancy magical logic.
On August 16 2013 01:04 pylonsalad wrote: The head-to-head condition is entirely arbitrary. It does not show that Kangho played better than the other two. Guess what, he lost to both the better player of the day (jjakji) and the worse player of the day (shine). It is accepted because it is agreed upon by convention to save time, but to make the argument that it shows who is the better player is fancy magical logic.
But you can make that argument for pretty much every tournament format currently in use, that they favor convenience and scheduling over the highest accuracy of determining who the best player is.
If you want to know for sure 100% who the best player is, good luck hosting a tournament the scale of GSL and having every single player duke it out against every other one in a Bo7/Bo9.
On August 16 2013 01:04 pylonsalad wrote: The head-to-head condition is entirely arbitrary. It does not show that Kangho played better than the other two. Guess what, he lost to both the better player of the day (jjakji) and the worse player of the day (shine). It is accepted because it is agreed upon by convention to save time, but to make the argument that it shows who is the better player is fancy magical logic.
But you can make that argument for pretty much every tournament format currently in use, that they favor convenience and scheduling over the highest accuracy of determining who the best player is.
If you want to know for sure 100% who the best player is, good luck hosting a tournament the scale of GSL and having every single player duke it out against every other one in a Bo7/Bo9.
I give up trying to explain such simple logic to the daily whiners whenever their favored player loses or a player they don't like wins. Sigh. I'm not a very good keyboard warrior
On August 16 2013 01:04 pylonsalad wrote: The head-to-head condition is entirely arbitrary. It does not show that Kangho played better than the other two. Guess what, he lost to both the better player of the day (jjakji) and the worse player of the day (shine). It is accepted because it is agreed upon by convention to save time, but to make the argument that it shows who is the better player is fancy magical logic.
But you can make that argument for pretty much every tournament format currently in use, that they favor convenience and scheduling over the highest accuracy of determining who the best player is.
If you want to know for sure 100% who the best player is, good luck hosting a tournament the scale of GSL and having every single player duke it out against every other one in a Bo7/Bo9.
Ideally, they should do a 3-way tie-breaker round robin like the OSL. But even if they don't, I can accept that they just let the player through that beat the other two with the same score because everyone already agrees to it. I just have a problem with people claiming that proves that one player played better than the others who have the same score. That is a false claim using faulty logic. He doesn't "deserve" to advance over the other two any more than if we changed the tie-breaker condition to coin tosses.
Gosh... A 5 way tie would've been killer! This is where people's skills in tension situations truly shine. Kespa shouldve put in a little more effort, it's not like a hurricane destroyed their home and they weren't able to practice. Next time they should call Jack G as a coach and maybe they will perform.
On August 16 2013 06:20 ThePrince wrote: Gosh... A 5 way tie would've been killer! This is where people's skills in tension situations truly shine. Kespa shouldve put in a little more effort, it's not like a hurricane destroyed their home and they weren't able to practice. Next time they should call Jack G as a coach and maybe they will perform.
God this is so bad it's funny.
But 0/10 you didn't include "thunder" in the post.
On August 16 2013 01:04 pylonsalad wrote: The head-to-head condition is entirely arbitrary. It does not show that Kangho played better than the other two. Guess what, he lost to both the better player of the day (jjakji) and the worse player of the day (shine). It is accepted because it is agreed upon by convention to save time, but to make the argument that it shows who is the better player is fancy magical logic.
But you can make that argument for pretty much every tournament format currently in use, that they favor convenience and scheduling over the highest accuracy of determining who the best player is.
If you want to know for sure 100% who the best player is, good luck hosting a tournament the scale of GSL and having every single player duke it out against every other one in a Bo7/Bo9.
You know there is a middle ground between Bo9`s and arbitrarily deciding who advances? If you`ve sim ply got to save time, and records are tied, going by Code S incumbents advancing first would be just as fair. H2H can be ok but not in a format with so few games, low match scores and heaps of ties.
On August 16 2013 01:04 pylonsalad wrote: The head-to-head condition is entirely arbitrary. It does not show that Kangho played better than the other two. Guess what, he lost to both the better player of the day (jjakji) and the worse player of the day (shine). It is accepted because it is agreed upon by convention to save time, but to make the argument that it shows who is the better player is fancy magical logic.
But you can make that argument for pretty much every tournament format currently in use, that they favor convenience and scheduling over the highest accuracy of determining who the best player is.
If you want to know for sure 100% who the best player is, good luck hosting a tournament the scale of GSL and having every single player duke it out against every other one in a Bo7/Bo9.
You know there is a middle ground between Bo9`s and arbitrarily deciding who advances? If you`ve sim ply got to save time, and records are tied, going by Code S incumbents advancing first would be just as fair. H2H can be ok but not in a format with so few games, low match scores and heaps of ties.
So mad . A better system would probably to play the Ups and Downs as if they were double bracket group stage. BO1 does seem a bit arbitrary. However, it is still fun to see fan favorites crash and burn
Let's try this again. A 5 way tie would've been killer! This is where people's skills in tension situations truly shine. Kespa shouldve put in a little more effort, it's not like a hurricane or thunder destroyed their internet and they weren't able to practice. Next time they should call Jack G as a coach and maybe they will perform. That guy has the swagger yo. If you think he can't coach well I'm telling you... he can, ho! If they recruit him I will shed a tear of joy.
On August 16 2013 01:04 pylonsalad wrote: The head-to-head condition is entirely arbitrary. It does not show that Kangho played better than the other two. Guess what, he lost to both the better player of the day (jjakji) and the worse player of the day (shine). It is accepted because it is agreed upon by convention to save time, but to make the argument that it shows who is the better player is fancy magical logic.
But you can make that argument for pretty much every tournament format currently in use, that they favor convenience and scheduling over the highest accuracy of determining who the best player is.
If you want to know for sure 100% who the best player is, good luck hosting a tournament the scale of GSL and having every single player duke it out against every other one in a Bo7/Bo9.
You know there is a middle ground between Bo9`s and arbitrarily deciding who advances? If you`ve sim ply got to save time, and records are tied, going by Code S incumbents advancing first would be just as fair. H2H can be ok but not in a format with so few games, low match scores and heaps of ties.
So mad
Yes I was clearly angry/upset in that last post -.- I'm not a huge fan of anyone in this group though felt Effort was unlucky with the rock bug. I just dislike seeing people defending the tiebreaker system like it's fair or actually chooses the better player when it's nothing more than a time saver. A format with the potential for a 2-1 record to face a 1-2 with the winner advancing is seriously flawed.
On August 16 2013 01:04 pylonsalad wrote: The head-to-head condition is entirely arbitrary. It does not show that Kangho played better than the other two. Guess what, he lost to both the better player of the day (jjakji) and the worse player of the day (shine). It is accepted because it is agreed upon by convention to save time, but to make the argument that it shows who is the better player is fancy magical logic.
But you can make that argument for pretty much every tournament format currently in use, that they favor convenience and scheduling over the highest accuracy of determining who the best player is.
If you want to know for sure 100% who the best player is, good luck hosting a tournament the scale of GSL and having every single player duke it out against every other one in a Bo7/Bo9.
You know there is a middle ground between Bo9`s and arbitrarily deciding who advances? If you`ve sim ply got to save time, and records are tied, going by Code S incumbents advancing first would be just as fair. H2H can be ok but not in a format with so few games, low match scores and heaps of ties.
So mad
Yes I was clearly angry/upset in that last post -.- I'm not a huge fan of anyone in this group though felt Effort was unlucky with the rock bug. I just dislike seeing people defending the tiebreaker system like it's fair or actually chooses the better player when it's nothing more than a time saver. A format with the potential for a 2-1 record to face a 1-2 with the winner advancing is seriously flawed.
But flaws are what make perfection.
Isn't perfection just a conglomeration of flaws put together in a harmonious yet perfectly flawed way?
On August 16 2013 01:04 pylonsalad wrote: The head-to-head condition is entirely arbitrary. It does not show that Kangho played better than the other two. Guess what, he lost to both the better player of the day (jjakji) and the worse player of the day (shine). It is accepted because it is agreed upon by convention to save time, but to make the argument that it shows who is the better player is fancy magical logic.
But you can make that argument for pretty much every tournament format currently in use, that they favor convenience and scheduling over the highest accuracy of determining who the best player is.
If you want to know for sure 100% who the best player is, good luck hosting a tournament the scale of GSL and having every single player duke it out against every other one in a Bo7/Bo9.
You know there is a middle ground between Bo9`s and arbitrarily deciding who advances? If you`ve sim ply got to save time, and records are tied, going by Code S incumbents advancing first would be just as fair. H2H can be ok but not in a format with so few games, low match scores and heaps of ties.
So mad
Yes I was clearly angry/upset in that last post -.- I'm not a huge fan of anyone in this group though felt Effort was unlucky with the rock bug. I just dislike seeing people defending the tiebreaker system like it's fair or actually chooses the better player when it's nothing more than a time saver. A format with the potential for a 2-1 record to face a 1-2 with the winner advancing is seriously flawed.
Soo also advanced in group B on a H2H. Where were you then and were you angry/upset?
On August 16 2013 01:04 pylonsalad wrote: The head-to-head condition is entirely arbitrary. It does not show that Kangho played better than the other two. Guess what, he lost to both the better player of the day (jjakji) and the worse player of the day (shine). It is accepted because it is agreed upon by convention to save time, but to make the argument that it shows who is the better player is fancy magical logic.
But you can make that argument for pretty much every tournament format currently in use, that they favor convenience and scheduling over the highest accuracy of determining who the best player is.
If you want to know for sure 100% who the best player is, good luck hosting a tournament the scale of GSL and having every single player duke it out against every other one in a Bo7/Bo9.
You know there is a middle ground between Bo9`s and arbitrarily deciding who advances? If you`ve sim ply got to save time, and records are tied, going by Code S incumbents advancing first would be just as fair. H2H can be ok but not in a format with so few games, low match scores and heaps of ties.
So mad
Yes I was clearly angry/upset in that last post -.- I'm not a huge fan of anyone in this group though felt Effort was unlucky with the rock bug. I just dislike seeing people defending the tiebreaker system like it's fair or actually chooses the better player when it's nothing more than a time saver. A format with the potential for a 2-1 record to face a 1-2 with the winner advancing is seriously flawed.
lol, aren't all tournament systems constraint by time in some sense? If you want to theoretically choose the 'best player' (if there is such a thing). You would need to play like Bo49 robin round with all the 32 players.
One could argue that Innovation got 'lucky' that his Ro32 group didn't include Maru and Bomber. Or he would have gotten knocked out in Ro32. I think as long as all the players know the tiebreaker system before hand, it is fine. There is NO 'perfect' system.
On August 16 2013 01:04 pylonsalad wrote: The head-to-head condition is entirely arbitrary. It does not show that Kangho played better than the other two. Guess what, he lost to both the better player of the day (jjakji) and the worse player of the day (shine). It is accepted because it is agreed upon by convention to save time, but to make the argument that it shows who is the better player is fancy magical logic.
But you can make that argument for pretty much every tournament format currently in use, that they favor convenience and scheduling over the highest accuracy of determining who the best player is.
If you want to know for sure 100% who the best player is, good luck hosting a tournament the scale of GSL and having every single player duke it out against every other one in a Bo7/Bo9.
You know there is a middle ground between Bo9`s and arbitrarily deciding who advances? If you`ve sim ply got to save time, and records are tied, going by Code S incumbents advancing first would be just as fair. H2H can be ok but not in a format with so few games, low match scores and heaps of ties.
So mad
Yes I was clearly angry/upset in that last post -.- I'm not a huge fan of anyone in this group though felt Effort was unlucky with the rock bug. I just dislike seeing people defending the tiebreaker system like it's fair or actually chooses the better player when it's nothing more than a time saver. A format with the potential for a 2-1 record to face a 1-2 with the winner advancing is seriously flawed.
lol, aren't all tournament systems constraint by time in some sense? If you want to theoretically choose the 'best player' (if there is such a thing). You would need to play like Bo49 robin round with all the 32 players.
One could argue that Innovation got 'lucky' that his Ro32 group didn't include Maru and Bomber. Or he would have gotten knocked out in Ro32. I think as long as all the players know the tiebreaker system before hand, it is fine. There is NO 'perfect' system.
This is seriously the dumbest argument. By your logic there's no perfect system so we should just give up on making it fair at all and toss a coin. Obviously there's no perfect system but there can definitely be improved formats/tiebreaking methods, especially when it's Bo1. OSL tiebreakers are a great example.
On August 16 2013 01:04 pylonsalad wrote: The head-to-head condition is entirely arbitrary. It does not show that Kangho played better than the other two. Guess what, he lost to both the better player of the day (jjakji) and the worse player of the day (shine). It is accepted because it is agreed upon by convention to save time, but to make the argument that it shows who is the better player is fancy magical logic.
But you can make that argument for pretty much every tournament format currently in use, that they favor convenience and scheduling over the highest accuracy of determining who the best player is.
If you want to know for sure 100% who the best player is, good luck hosting a tournament the scale of GSL and having every single player duke it out against every other one in a Bo7/Bo9.
You know there is a middle ground between Bo9`s and arbitrarily deciding who advances? If you`ve sim ply got to save time, and records are tied, going by Code S incumbents advancing first would be just as fair. H2H can be ok but not in a format with so few games, low match scores and heaps of ties.
So mad
Yes I was clearly angry/upset in that last post -.- I'm not a huge fan of anyone in this group though felt Effort was unlucky with the rock bug. I just dislike seeing people defending the tiebreaker system like it's fair or actually chooses the better player when it's nothing more than a time saver. A format with the potential for a 2-1 record to face a 1-2 with the winner advancing is seriously flawed.
Soo also advanced in group B on a H2H. Where were you then and were you angry/upset?
You must've missed the sarcasm. Obviously I'm not going to argue it in every thread but I've disapproved of the U&D tiebreakers since I first encountered it, regardless of who benefits. Doesn't mean I need to argue it in every group it happens. Just in this particular thread people were defending it like it was a fair and accurate way of producing a winner.
Citing OSL as a comparison is disingenuous. They are 4man groups with the only tiebreaker possibility being a 3 way tie for first or second, with all the players having tied records against the other tiebreaker contenders. It is impossible in OSL groups to have a tie where one player has beaten both the other players. They are different kinds of groups so comparing it to OSL is irrelevant.
On August 16 2013 12:10 lichter wrote: Citing OSL as a comparison is disingenuous. They are 4man groups with the only tiebreaker possibility being a 3 way tie for first or second, with all the players having tied records against the other tiebreaker contenders. It is impossible in OSL groups to have a tie where one player has beaten both the other players. They are different kinds of groups so comparing it to OSL is irrelevant.
What I meant was OSL is still essentially a best of one format with a superior tiebreaker (playing it out). Even if, due to time constraints, they had the games played unbroadcasted or even online it'd still be better than the current system where a progamer's livelihood hinges on GOM arbitrarily cherrypicking the right data. Who beat who is irrelevant when the cumulative scores are the same.
On August 16 2013 12:10 lichter wrote: Citing OSL as a comparison is disingenuous. They are 4man groups with the only tiebreaker possibility being a 3 way tie for first or second, with all the players having tied records against the other tiebreaker contenders. It is impossible in OSL groups to have a tie where one player has beaten both the other players. They are different kinds of groups so comparing it to OSL is irrelevant.
What I meant was OSL is still essentially a best of one format with a superior tiebreaker (playing it out). Even if, due to time constraints, they had the games played unbroadcasted or even online it'd still be better than the current system where a progamer's livelihood hinges on GOM arbitrarily cherrypicking the right data. Who beat who is irrelevant when the cumulative scores are the same.
OSL play it out exactly the same way as U/D. The situation you are complaining about can't happen in OSL groups so it is irrelevant to compare them.
You call it fair but logical arguments can be made to question that. If one player has already beaten both, why must he replay only those games where he already won? For a player who lost to both, why must he only play against the players he is likely to lose against? If 'who beat who' is irrelevant, why not replay the whole group until the result isn't a tie?
It isn't an arbitrary choice. That is ridiculous. Call it an unfortunate 'shortcut' if you will. But it is not arbitrary.
On August 16 2013 12:10 lichter wrote: Citing OSL as a comparison is disingenuous. They are 4man groups with the only tiebreaker possibility being a 3 way tie for first or second, with all the players having tied records against the other tiebreaker contenders. It is impossible in OSL groups to have a tie where one player has beaten both the other players. They are different kinds of groups so comparing it to OSL is irrelevant.
What I meant was OSL is still essentially a best of one format with a superior tiebreaker (playing it out). Even if, due to time constraints, they had the games played unbroadcasted or even online it'd still be better than the current system where a progamer's livelihood hinges on GOM arbitrarily cherrypicking the right data. Who beat who is irrelevant when the cumulative scores are the same.
If one player has already beaten both, why must he replay only those games where he already won? For a player who lost to both, why must he only play against the players he is likely to lose against? If 'who beat who' is irrelevant, why not replay the whole group until the result isn't a tie?
They are tied and should have the chance to prove who is better by playing. The player who has beaten both has also lost two games to players they beat. It'd be silly to replay the whole group when only 3 are involved in the tiebreak, especially as noone else will be motivated. Just have them play each other and have them break the tie through additional games rather than the luck of having beat the 'right' person.
I have to agree with Scarecrow. I just don't know what the better format is anyway. Almost every format has a flaw, and I'm yet to see one without complaints.
Bracket: "Lucky bracket" Bo3 Winner-Loser Groups: "How come 4-4 advances over 4-3?" or "Head to head he's 3-2, why not advance?!" U/D Bo1: "Useless games for some people. Head to head can work out weirdly." Original U/D system: "Code S too stagnant"
etc etc.
Is there "the perfect system"? Why aren't we all using it already!?
On August 16 2013 15:05 lichter wrote: The games that you believe determine who is 'better' have already been played once.
And they were tied. Hence playing another round of games between those tied to determine who advances. The current system is just as fair as saying 'oh Hurricane should advance because he beat the best player in the group.'
On August 16 2013 15:05 lichter wrote: The games that you believe determine who is 'better' have already been played once.
And they were tied. Hence playing another round of games between those tied to determine who advances. The current system is just as fair as saying 'oh Hurricane should advance because he beat the best player in the group.'
I think what people are trying to say is that yes, we could take the people that were tied and play another set of games. But since these games between the players have already been played. We will use those results. This is essentially what this tie breaker system does.
On August 16 2013 14:43 bittman wrote: I have to agree with Scarecrow. I just don't know what the better format is anyway. Almost every format has a flaw, and I'm yet to see one without complaints.
Bracket: "Lucky bracket" Bo3 Winner-Loser Groups: "How come 4-4 advances over 4-3?" or "Head to head he's 3-2, why not advance?!" U/D Bo1: "Useless games for some people. Head to head can work out weirdly." Original U/D system: "Code S too stagnant"
etc etc.
Is there "the perfect system"? Why aren't we all using it already!?
Coinflip used at DH is the best and most balanced system that allows every player have equal chances to get into Code S.
On August 16 2013 16:15 monkybone wrote: To people calling it fair because it's convention and thus something everyone are equally subjected to, that's not the point. In one sense one player performed better, in another, some other player did. And that's really what matters, player performance. The conclusion is that nothing could really be considered perfectly fair in a tied score situation. The best, most practical, and fairest option would be to always play out the tiebreakers.
Yet, many people on these forums argued for Bo1 OSL Ro32 because that has already been the way for OSL. Are Bo1s the fairest determination of player performance? Especially for SC2?
On August 16 2013 15:05 lichter wrote: The games that you believe determine who is 'better' have already been played once.
And they were tied. Hence playing another round of games between those tied to determine who advances. The current system is just as fair as saying 'oh Hurricane should advance because he beat the best player in the group.'
I think this is a difference of semantics.
What you are trying to argue is that the system is unfair because it does not pick the two OVERALL best players of the group. For example, if 3 people are tied at 2-2, it's obvious that they are tied as in "all three of them had the same performance with respect to the entire group"
However, try to think of it this way:
The 1st player is OBVIOUSLY qualified, there is no dispute over that The last player is OBVIOUSLY not qualified, no dispute here too The only question is the three remaining tied players
With tiebreakers, we're no longer trying to find out which of the three performed best in the group... we are creating a NEW group with JUST those three players. Then, we try to find out which of those three players is the best against each other. In other words, it's no longer about who was 2nd best in Group F... it's about "which of these 3 players is the best?"
On August 16 2013 15:05 lichter wrote: The games that you believe determine who is 'better' have already been played once.
And they were tied. Hence playing another round of games between those tied to determine who advances. The current system is just as fair as saying 'oh Hurricane should advance because he beat the best player in the group.'
I think this is a difference of semantics.
What you are trying to argue is that the system is unfair because it does not pick the two OVERALL best players of the group. For example, if 3 people are tied at 2-2, it's obvious that they are tied as in "all three of them had the same performance with respect to the entire group"
However, try to think of it this way:
The 1st player is OBVIOUSLY qualified, there is no dispute over that The last player is OBVIOUSLY not qualified, no dispute here too The only question is the three remaining tied players
With tiebreakers, we're no longer trying to find out which of the three performed best in the group... we are creating a NEW group with JUST those three players. Then, we try to find out which of those three players is the best against each other. In other words, it's no longer about who was 2nd best in Group F... it's about "which of these 3 players is the best?"
Except the mini-group has already been played.
You see, this is cherry-picking data. Now you're giving more weight to some games than to others. Basically, you are ignoring the favored player's losses because he took more losses outside your mini-group than the non-advancing players. There is no way you can say one player deserves to advance over the others with the same score without some kind of twisted logic.
Using H2H score to determine who advances has just as much legitimacy as coin flips or rock-paper-scissors, or choosing whoever has the longest name.
On August 16 2013 15:05 lichter wrote: The games that you believe determine who is 'better' have already been played once.
And they were tied. Hence playing another round of games between those tied to determine who advances. The current system is just as fair as saying 'oh Hurricane should advance because he beat the best player in the group.'
I think this is a difference of semantics.
What you are trying to argue is that the system is unfair because it does not pick the two OVERALL best players of the group. For example, if 3 people are tied at 2-2, it's obvious that they are tied as in "all three of them had the same performance with respect to the entire group"
However, try to think of it this way:
The 1st player is OBVIOUSLY qualified, there is no dispute over that The last player is OBVIOUSLY not qualified, no dispute here too The only question is the three remaining tied players
With tiebreakers, we're no longer trying to find out which of the three performed best in the group... we are creating a NEW group with JUST those three players. Then, we try to find out which of those three players is the best against each other. In other words, it's no longer about who was 2nd best in Group F... it's about "which of these 3 players is the best?"
Except the mini-group has already been played.
You see, this is cherry-picking data. Now you're giving more weight to some games than to others. Basically, you are ignoring the favored player's losses because he took more losses outside your mini-group than the non-advancing players. There is no way you can say one player deserves to advance over the others with the same score without some kind of twisted logic.
Using H2H score to determine who advances has just as much legitimacy as coin flips or rock-paper-scissors, or choosing whoever has the longest name.
You're completely right - we ARE cherry-picking because the other games DON'T matter - all other players have had their fates decided. Group winner is through, group loser is out, those matches do not matter anymore!
The only important matches are the ones still in contention for that Code S spot... meaning the games between themselves. That's all.
You're not fully understanding why H2H is unfair and arbitrary. You say the games outside the tied group don't matter. By saying that you're basically ignoring the games that Kangho went 0-2 and Hurricane went 2-0. Isn't that unfair to Hurricane? Why do you only choose the games that Kangho won to say that only those games matter? Of course Kangho won against the other tied players. So what? That doesn't make his wins any more "valuable" than Hurricane's wins or Effort's wins. To say that those wins are more valuable is completely arbitrary. You can also make the argument that whoever has the best record against the top player (jjakji) should advance, but that would also be arbitrary. There is no reason to value some games more than others.
Btw, I have no interest in any of these players. From a purely logical standpoint using H2H score just does not determine who played better or "deserves" to advance.
On August 16 2013 17:57 pylonsalad wrote: You're not fully understanding why H2H is unfair and arbitrary. You say the games outside the tied group don't matter. By saying that you're basically ignoring the games that Kangho went 0-2 and Hurricane went 2-0. Isn't that unfair to Hurricane? Why do you only choose the games that Kangho won to say that only those games matter? Of course Kangho won against the other tied players. So what? That doesn't make his wins any more "valuable" than Hurricane's wins or Effort's wins. To say that those wins are more valuable is completely arbitrary. You can also make the argument that whoever has the best record against the top player (jjakji) should advance, but that would also be arbitrary. There is no reason to value some games more than others.
Btw, I have no interest in any of these players. From a purely logical standpoint using H2H score just does not determine who played better or "deserves" to advance.
Actually, if we want to determined the 'better' player or the player that 'deserves' to make it. Then we would need to play the entire group again. Why? Match ups. Let's say the tied was between the 3 zergs (Shine, KangHo, Effort).
Say Effort v Z specialist and got 2-2 because he lost against the 2 non zergs and beat both zergs.
Say Kangho sucks in vZ and got 2-2 by beating both T and P and lost against Shine and Effort.
If they just play another set of tiebreaker, Effort would win most of the time. But does that make him a 'better' player? or the player that deserves to go through?
Yes,in H2H, some wins will be more 'valuable'. But in play again tiebreakers, you still have match up 'imbalance'. A lot depends on who you are tied with. If Effort was tied with the 2 non zergs, he wouldn't make it. But he was 'lucky' and tied with the zergs, he gets to go through.
On August 16 2013 17:57 pylonsalad wrote: You're not fully understanding why H2H is unfair and arbitrary. You say the games outside the tied group don't matter. By saying that you're basically ignoring the games that Kangho went 0-2 and Hurricane went 2-0. Isn't that unfair to Hurricane? Why do you only choose the games that Kangho won to say that only those games matter? Of course Kangho won against the other tied players. So what? That doesn't make his wins any more "valuable" than Hurricane's wins or Effort's wins. To say that those wins are more valuable is completely arbitrary. You can also make the argument that whoever has the best record against the top player (jjakji) should advance, but that would also be arbitrary. There is no reason to value some games more than others.
Btw, I have no interest in any of these players. From a purely logical standpoint using H2H score just does not determine who played better or "deserves" to advance.
Imagine it like this:
Up & Downs - jjakji, Shine, EffOrt, KangHo, Hurricane - Round Robin Bo1 1st - jjakji - Advance directly to Code S 5th - Shine - Fall directly to Code A 2nd-4th - KangHo, EffOrt, Hurricane - Advance to Up & Down Round 2
Up & Down Round 2 - Hurricane, KangHo, EffOrt - Round Robin Bo1 KangHo > Hurricane KangHo > EffOrt EffOrt > Hurricane
1st - KangHo (2-0) - Advance to Code S 2nd - EffOrt (1-1) - Code A 3rd - Hurricane (0-2) - Code A
In this scenario, would you consider it unfair? Suddenly all other games don't matter because a new group was played... Hurricane's victories over Shine and jjakji were ignored, and he dropped out in the tiebreaker group.
Now, in the interest of saving time, let's simply assume that the second group will yield the same results as when they first played. If KangHo beat Hurricane the first time, we assume that he will win again. In this manner, the second group need not be played, time is saved, and we have our two players advance.
On August 16 2013 17:57 pylonsalad wrote: You're not fully understanding why H2H is unfair and arbitrary. You say the games outside the tied group don't matter. By saying that you're basically ignoring the games that Kangho went 0-2 and Hurricane went 2-0. Isn't that unfair to Hurricane? Why do you only choose the games that Kangho won to say that only those games matter? Of course Kangho won against the other tied players. So what? That doesn't make his wins any more "valuable" than Hurricane's wins or Effort's wins. To say that those wins are more valuable is completely arbitrary. You can also make the argument that whoever has the best record against the top player (jjakji) should advance, but that would also be arbitrary. There is no reason to value some games more than others.
Btw, I have no interest in any of these players. From a purely logical standpoint using H2H score just does not determine who played better or "deserves" to advance.
Imagine it like this:
Up & Downs - jjakji, Shine, EffOrt, KangHo, Hurricane - Round Robin Bo1 1st - jjakji - Advance directly to Code S 5th - Shine - Fall directly to Code A 2nd-4th - KangHo, EffOrt, Hurricane - Advance to Up & Down Round 2
Up & Down Round 2 - Hurricane, KangHo, EffOrt - Round Robin Bo1 KangHo > Hurricane KangHo > EffOrt EffOrt > Hurricane
1st - KangHo (2-0) - Advance to Code S 2nd - EffOrt (1-1) - Code A 3rd - Hurricane (0-2) - Code A
In this scenario, would you consider it unfair? Suddenly all other games don't matter because a new group was played... Hurricane's victories over Shine and jjakji were ignored, and he dropped out in the tiebreaker group.
Now, in the interest of saving time, let's simply assume that the second group will yield the same results as when they first played. If KangHo beat Hurricane the first time, we assume that he will win again. In this manner, the second group need not be played, time is saved, and we have our two players advance.
H2H is not so absurd as you may think.
All other games do matter, they ended up getting them into the tiebreak in the first place.
@ the 'they already played their round robin' argument: H2H basically counts some games twice (which is just too much weight to put on single Bo1's), that's why it's fairer to play it out again with the tied players.
"If KangHo beat Hurricane the first time, we assume that he will win again," is just ridiculous. He won a Bo1 so we essentially give him a second free-win to break the tie. In your example Kangho advancing is fair because he has won more games and they are no longer tied. Their fate is in their hands rather than being lucky enough to win the Bo1 that gets counted twice... I can't believe some are arguing H2H is superior or even equal to playing actual tiebreaker games in anything but timesaving.
The absolute fairest way (in terms of mu's) is of course playing out the entire group again, but that's not realistic for several reasons. So playing out a smaller tiebreaker group with the relevant, motivated players is a nice compromise between that and arbitrarily ending it on H2H.
The other games do not "suddenly don't matter". They matter in that they allowed these players to get into the 2nd round tiebreakers. Shine doesn't get to play the 2nd round because those games mattered. No matter how you want to twist your logic, H2H doesn't make sense.
Why would you just assume that Kangho will beat Hurricane again? That is a ridiculous and ARBITRARY assumption to make.
H2H is absurd and you keep twisting your logic to try to make a circle fit into a square.
Something tells me that some people do not watch real sports. Head to head is the most common way to break ties in pretty much every sport.
Everything is arbitrary. Not just the tiebreakers, but every tournament structure in every tournament. People need to stop crying about perceived unfairness every time the results aren't what they want. And stop with the BS that you don't care about the results you are whining about. That's the least believable argument you can possibly make.
Life isn't fair. Life has time constraints. Tell me, do you have a better idea to break ties without additional games being played?
On August 16 2013 22:56 andrewlt wrote: Something tells me that some people do not watch real sports. Head to head is the most common way to break ties in pretty much every sport.
Except in real sports it's over the course of a season with many games played, like the NBA where the sheer number of games makes any H2H tiebreaker a lot less harsh. Both teams tying on 50-32 gives is freaking close and both had plenty of chances over the season to get their 51st win, not to mention playing a minimum of 2 games vs each other. Having the same system for a 2-2 (played each other once) record is dumb and I challenge you to find a H2H tiebreak existing in any 'real sport' as a first option off such limited data.
This is coupled with the difficulty of running tiebreakers between teams from different areas in longer, harder to organise sports. In the case of U&D it's a 2-2 score, the games are online, 1vs1 and take 15-20 minutes plus they're already in the studio. Even limiting it to one round of tiebreakers then going to H2H due to time restrictions, if it remains tied, would be better.
On August 16 2013 22:56 andrewlt wrote: Everything is arbitrary. Not just the tiebreakers, but every tournament structure in every tournament. People need to stop crying about perceived unfairness every time the results aren't what they want. And stop with the BS that you don't care about the results you are whining about. That's the least believable argument you can possibly make.
I don't give a shit about who got out of this group. However, I do get irritated when people defend a format with bullshit semantics like 'everything is arbitrary.' So regardless of how bad a format is we're never allowed to criticise or suggest improvements because we must just be a sore loser? I'm sure the players must get frustrated at how their livelihood is impacted by GOM making a single Bo1 more important than the others and turning advancement into a coin toss.
On August 16 2013 22:56 andrewlt wrote: Something tells me that some people do not watch real sports. Head to head is the most common way to break ties in pretty much every sport.
Except in real sports it's over the course of a season with many games played, like the NBA where the sheer number of games makes any H2H tiebreaker a lot less harsh. Both teams tying on 50-32 gives is freaking close and both had plenty of chances over the season to get their 51st win, not to mention playing a minimum of 2 games vs each other. Having the same system for a 2-2 (played each other once) record is dumb and I challenge you to find a H2H tiebreak existing in any 'real sport' as a first option of such limited data.
This is coupled with the difficulty of running tiebreakers between teams from different areas in longer, harder to organise games. In the case of U&D it's a 2-2 score, the games are online and take 15-20 minutes plus they're already in the studio. Even just limiting it to one round of tiebreakers then going to H2H due to time restrictions if it remains tied.
You're ignoring the fact that there are plenty of chances over the season for all of these players to not be in the up and down groups. They all had the chance to stay in premier league or advance to premier league without going through the up and down groups. They all blew that chance.
Assuming 15-20 minute games, tiebreakers between 3 players is roughly 1 hour. That's everybody from the announcers to the production crew, cleaning crew, logistics people and so forth having to stay an extra hour. There is also the audience, most of whom have work or school the next day. In the NBA, I frequently have to turn off the TV and go to bed when west coast games go to overtime. I'd say having your live audience go home without knowing the results is the event you want to avoid the most.
On August 16 2013 23:07 Scarecrow wrote: I don't give a shit about who got out of this group. However, I do get irritated when people defend a format with bullshit semantics like 'everything is arbitrary.' So regardless of how bad a format is we're never allowed to criticise or suggest improvements because we must just be a sore loser? I'm sure the players must get frustrated at how their livelihood is impacted by GOM making a single Bo1 more important than the others and turning advancement into a coin toss.
I get irritated when people ignore all logistical issues and time constraints to argue based on their personal definitions of fairness and arbitrary. I find other people's definition of fairness and arbitrary to be bullshit and arbitrary. The player's livelihood is not all that is at stake here. You either have GOM having to pay out additional overtime or have the production crew work unpaid overtime. You know, the little people that everybody ignores and just steps on.
On August 16 2013 22:56 andrewlt wrote: Something tells me that some people do not watch real sports. Head to head is the most common way to break ties in pretty much every sport.
Except in real sports it's over the course of a season with many games played, like the NBA where the sheer number of games makes any H2H tiebreaker a lot less harsh. Both teams tying on 50-32 gives is freaking close and both had plenty of chances over the season to get their 51st win, not to mention playing a minimum of 2 games vs each other. Having the same system for a 2-2 (played each other once) record is dumb and I challenge you to find a H2H tiebreak existing in any 'real sport' as a first option off such limited data.
This is coupled with the difficulty of running tiebreakers between teams from different areas in longer, harder to organise sports. In the case of U&D it's a 2-2 score, the games are online, 1vs1 and take 15-20 minutes plus they're already in the studio. Even limiting it to one round of tiebreakers then going to H2H due to time restrictions, if it remains tied, would be better.
On August 16 2013 22:56 andrewlt wrote: Everything is arbitrary. Not just the tiebreakers, but every tournament structure in every tournament. People need to stop crying about perceived unfairness every time the results aren't what they want. And stop with the BS that you don't care about the results you are whining about. That's the least believable argument you can possibly make.
I don't give a shit about who got out of this group. However, I do get irritated when people defend a format with bullshit semantics like 'everything is arbitrary.' So regardless of how bad a format is we're never allowed to criticise or suggest improvements because we must just be a sore loser? I'm sure the players must get frustrated at how their livelihood is impacted by GOM making a single Bo1 more important than the others and turning advancement into a coin toss.
The World Cup uses H2H after goal difference/goal scored. We don't have 'goals' for SC2 so it is H2H. So the argument that some 'games' shouldn't be more important than others depending on who is tied really doesn't hold water. Some world cup group stage games also matter more than others.
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