EPT[Up/Down] Group B WCS Korea 2013 Season 3 - Page 47
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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Gorlin
United States2753 Posts
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On August 07 2013 19:31 lichter wrote: In Hybrid PL Jaedong was one of the first zergs to shift queue fungal-burrow-escape. It filled me with awe. I dunno why he suddenly stagnated after impressing so much early on. Hopefully he gets back into form. He said in an interview that he stopped practicing, and in that same interview he said he started practicing again, both of which seem to be true by his rate of progress. | ||
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illidanx
United States973 Posts
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azngamer828
United States137 Posts
On August 07 2013 18:28 DrPandaPhD wrote: Oh man Life out, hope Leenock at least makes it tomorrow otherwise I might commit sudoku : ( lol your going to commit to sudoku the game or seppuku, the ritual suicide? haha was a little confused | ||
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goody153
44267 Posts
"heart broken" | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On August 08 2013 00:10 azngamer828 wrote: lol your going to commit to sudoku the game or seppuku, the ritual suicide? haha was a little confused It's a meme. | ||
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massivez
Belgium653 Posts
On August 07 2013 18:51 edgeOut wrote: CJ instantly becomes a much better team with Coach park join within just weeks. They are breaking through in every fronts of Korean tournaments. Probably due to his skill of making players relax, both songduri and Hero said team atmosphere is much better right now after coach came. You got any link too those interviews? realy curious. Now only effOrt needs to get back in! | ||
CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On August 07 2013 17:10 lichter wrote: Life fans will disagree but it is because everyone has caught up with his mechanics. During his reign he had the best mechanics and micro out of any zerg player. His zergling baneling micro was unparalleled. He was strategically naive doing whatever he wanted but he made it work because of his superior control. Now that everyone has caught up, he can't get by on his mechanics alone. He's playing the same way while everyone has improved. As a Life fan I disagree because you clearly don't understand why he was successful at all. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 08 2013 00:57 CosmicSpiral wrote: As a Life fan I disagree because you clearly don't understand why he was successful at all. You should read the rest of the conversation | ||
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sharkie
Austria18634 Posts
Hero qualified, not hero! | ||
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On August 08 2013 01:04 lichter wrote: You should read the rest of the conversation I did. Most of the conversation is simply wrong about the basic things from his attacks (which were always timing attacks based on upgrades and exploiting build orders) to his basis of his success (he was never mechanically superior to the likes of DRG and Losira, at best equal). Tactically he was brilliant. Strategically he was never anything special. The only possible contributions he made to the metagame were a different upgrade path to ZvZ (which was never fleshed out after TSL4) and the use of drop play in ZvP to set up the late game army (also never fleshed out). Otherwise he simply adapted pre-existing builds and pushed them to their natural limits. He was also mediocre at broodlord-infestor play since it was slow and he's uncomfortable with using a slow army. Everyone seems to have undergone collective amnesia and forgotten that Life's ZvZ was not good after 2 base mutalisk fell out of fashion post-summer 2012. From then until HotS he was relying on fundamentals to win. In that sense he never changed. | ||
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shell
Portugal2722 Posts
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edgeOut
United States945 Posts
On August 08 2013 00:32 massivez wrote: You got any link too those interviews? realy curious. Now only effOrt needs to get back in! Sorry, didn't read English interview, they are always too slow. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 08 2013 01:30 CosmicSpiral wrote: I did. Most of the conversation is simply wrong about the basic things from his attacks (which were always timing attacks based on upgrades and exploiting build orders) to his basis of his success (he was never mechanically superior to the likes of DRG and Losira, at best equal). Tactically he was brilliant. Strategically he was never anything special. The only possible contributions he made to the metagame were a different upgrade path to ZvZ (which was never fleshed out after TSL4) and the use of drop play in ZvP to set up the late game army (also never fleshed out). Otherwise he simply adapted pre-existing builds and pushed them to their natural limits. He was also mediocre at broodlord-infestor play since it was slow and he's uncomfortable with using a slow army. Everyone seems to have undergone collective amnesia and forgotten that Life's ZvZ was not good after 2 base mutalisk fell out of fashion post-summer 2012. From then until HotS he was relying on fundamentals to win. In that sense he never changed. You don't really say anything that invalidates my points. I never said that his famed style of Zerg was bad. His ling heavy mid game and use of those lings was really something that made him unique. But as I mentioned, now that that style of play is no longer feasible with mamacore, mines/no siege research, and better defensive capabilities allowing safer thirds for P and T, that aggressive style has fallen out because it no longer accomplishes anything. Soulkey has tried playing a similar ling heavy mid game, most recently in the PL finals. Can one say that Life had good strategic sense with coming up with that kind of style? Because it was successful, we think in retrospect that it was. The style was very successful after all. But whether that was a function of Life having a good strategic mind, or it being a fortunate metagame that allowed it to succeed, it is difficult to tell. But now that Life is struggling so clearly to figure out matchups that no longer abide by the standards where he succeeded in, we can say that strategically he is weak. Tactically, he was really clever with his ling movement and the way he attacks into armies, which I described earlier. At that point very few Zergs had the mechanics to do that. Having higher APM does not make better mechanics. Losira, for example, might have insane APM, but always plays very sloppy. At that time no other zerg had better engagements, micro, and army movement, all parts of using one's mechanics efficiently. May 2012 (I dunno what is summer for you) to the end of WoL his ZvZ was still 64%. His ZvZ also was built on a lot of early pools and just out microing his opponent. | ||
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Mensol
14536 Posts
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Shellshock
United States97276 Posts
On August 08 2013 02:36 Mensol wrote: Life is soO hard that you may need a HerO. That's a load of ByuN. Bang! Shots fired | ||
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On August 08 2013 02:18 lichter wrote: You don't really say anything that invalidates my points. I never said that his famed style of Zerg was bad. His ling heavy mid game and use of those lings was really something that made him unique. But as I mentioned, now that that style of play is no longer feasible with mamacore, mines/no siege research, and better defensive capabilities allowing safer thirds for P and T, that aggressive style has fallen out because it no longer accomplishes anything. Soulkey has tried playing a similar ling heavy mid game, most recently in the PL finals. Can one say that Life had good strategic sense with coming up with that kind of style? Because it was successful, we think in retrospect that it was. The style was very successful after all. But whether that was a function of Life having a good strategic mind, or it being a fortunate metagame that allowed it to succeed, it is difficult to tell. But now that Life is struggling so clearly to figure out matchups that no longer abide by the standards where he succeeded in, we can say that strategically he is weak. Tactically, he was really clever with his ling movement and the way he attacks into armies, which I described earlier. At that point very few Zergs had the mechanics to do that. Having higher APM does not make better mechanics. Losira, for example, might have insane APM, but always plays very sloppy. At that time no other zerg had better engagements, micro, and army movement, all parts of using one's mechanics efficiently. May 2012 (I dunno what is summer for you) to the end of WoL his ZvZ was still 64%. His ZvZ also was built on a lot of early pools and just out microing his opponent. That aggressive style is actually the only style that can win ZvT in the current metagame. The turtle style does not work anymore due to how terran's new unit compositions and faster upgrades affect the matchup. However, Soulkey executed it incorrectly by committing too much gas to baneling runbys that never worked. "Coming up with that kind of style" implies it was a conscious decision to do that. In reality he finds it very hard to play any other type of style. It's the reason why his BL/infestor lategame was always weak compared to Curious and it took so hard to become good at ZvP. Honestly he would have been successful no matter what style he played but the fact that he could exploit the metagame so well (while retaining the strengths of zerg in the ZvT matchup at that point in time) made him nearly unstoppable. He even admitted in interviews that he just plays like that because he feels natural. Otherwise you could not consider him strategically good in his prime. The thing is he's not struggling in those matchups at all. His ZvT is still around 70% and most of his losses are due to failed early pools. His ZvP is still very good and most of those losses were (his losses against Parting). His main failures are in ZvZ, a matchup where he has always struggled once 2 base mutalisk fell out of fashion. And Life had slightly worse macro and multitasking. Post-summer is after September. Most people are looking for some academic reason why Life is struggling when the answer is much simpler: he's struggling because he's worse in the areas that made him a champion. In particularly his tactics and decision-making are much worse across the board. Obviously the changes in the matchups have had their effect (in particular zerg seems to be struggling hard in Korea) but the main reason is that he wasn't practicing seriously and playing too much LoL. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
Also consider this: - Laugh at Innovation and Soulkey all you want, but making to RO8 and RO4 in the second WCS Korea tourney after their epic finals is a mean feat. How many champions have fallen at the group stages after a strong performance? Nearly all. Also, Innovation and Soulkey have been producing consistent results even before 2013, during the end of WoL. And their play was just as impressive as, if not more than, Life's. - Much as I dislike him (for his all-ins and his apparent stroke of luck), Symbol is arguably a stronger player than Life in terms of fundamentals. Again, I don't want to be psycho-analytic, but fundamentals for me means all-round abilities (mechanics, tactics, strategy, etc.) Suffice to say if you are strong fundamentally, you will never falter to far off the perch. Symbol hasn't, but Life has. Sure, Life may be the top Zerg bonjwa for about 3 months during WoL. But more than half a year has passed since then. It hurts to be his fanboy, just as it hurts for me to be MC's fanboy (once), but we just gotta move on and accept that there are simply other players better than Life and MC. I'm not saying analysing about Life's decline is necessarily a bad thing. But I just think the time has long passed in analysing why a "top zerg bonjwa has fallen". He's fallen some time ago (and I daresay he never even climbed to the top spot like Innovation and Soulkey have), and people should acting surprised of his poor performances and results. Sorry if I offended anyone, but that's how I feel. | ||
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