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On May 24 2013 06:53 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:48 Dodgin wrote:
I'm not fighting against it, I have a problem with claiming things like " Korean players do not have a story that foreign fans are interested in ". or " MLG always loses viewers after the last foreigner is out. "
You can make your points without ignorance and incorrect facts, I would be completely fine with region locked WCS EU & AM, I miss seeing Hero play in GSL. I have no problem acknowledging the language regarding those assertions. Tournaments usually lose viewers, either relative to their potential or just dipping completely, when the last foreigner is out. Korean players usually do not have a story that foreign fans are interested in or can relate to.
I can agree with that. But, I think the WCS AM finals weekend will be successful because they do not have a bunch of " boring " Koreans with no history or story. Instead they have Hero, Axiom Players, and most likely Polt, then you have Snute and Moonglade for the foreigners to cheer for. Revival is the only Korean player in the top 8 that comes across to me as " boring ".
Like I said earlier, if you want to prove to MLG and Blizzard that this cannot be a success then vote with your eyes and don't watch it. Change can only happen if it becomes obvious that the current model doesn't work for the fans.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On May 24 2013 06:56 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:56 opterown wrote:On May 24 2013 06:52 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:35 Dodgin wrote:
The NA fan base who only likes NA players moved onto something else, because none of their players could compete with consistency. Yeah that sucks, but it is what it is. WCS AM with only AM players won't bring those fans back, most of them don't want to see AM playing competing amongst themselves for who is the best of the worst. Why did Shoutcraft AM smash WCS AM viewercounts and peak higher then WCS EU at times then? TB and other co-casters plus anti-MLG/WCS sentiment Ah but why was there anti-MLG/WCS sentiment?
community circlejerk and overreaction
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On May 24 2013 06:55 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:52 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:35 Dodgin wrote:
The NA fan base who only likes NA players moved onto something else, because none of their players could compete with consistency. Yeah that sucks, but it is what it is. WCS AM with only AM players won't bring those fans back, most of them don't want to see AM playing competing amongst themselves for who is the best of the worst. Why did Shoutcraft AM smash WCS AM viewercounts and peak higher then WCS EU at times then? Because Totalbiscuit and Husky advertized the tournament extremely well, using their large Youtube channels to get viewers that would otherwise not watch live Starcraft 2 tournaments. You also had the anti-WCS AM sentiment in the community at the time of the tournament announcement because of how badly the qualifiers were run, as well as letting Korean players into the tournament. The first day of Shoutcraft AM did extremely well but every day afterwards had significantly less viewers. Also, I don't believe Shoutcraft AM ever beat WCS EU Premier in viewers, maybe they beat Challenger.
If I remember correctly, the main complaint towards MLG was regarding Chinese players, which should have nothing to do with people watching NA players on Shout-craft.
I think people wanted both to see NA players in their own tournament and to get back at Blizzard for allowing the Korean payers into the tournament. That pretty much validates that there is a problem here. So we are in agreement there.
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On May 23 2013 13:28 elijah.snow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 12:53 sitromit wrote:
Here are some hard numbers from FIFA World Cup, since people bring it up often:
Africa: 54 countries, 5 spots
Asia: 49 countries, 4.5 spots
Europe: 50 countries, 13 spots
South America: 12 countries, 4.5 spots This would translate in WCS Season Final spots like that: Korea: 10 spots Europe 5.5 spots NA: 0.5 spots. I think both sides have valid points. The WCS idea is to have three continental events of equal strength but WCS America will be soon a second Code S and there are a lot of esports fans out there that still want to watch their local heros. This is a problem but it is not necessarily the best solution to change to tournament structure. The best solution would be to increase the skill level of the american players but how to achieve that?
What people are not understanding is that it is the WCS format itself that is broken.
What is the purpose of WCS NA? It's not to provide NA viewers with a GSL at 3 PM PST / 6 PM EST. It's to provide a level playing field for players in the NA region - ie those who play on the NA server.
This was not designed to be a shortcut for Korean players to bypass WCS Korea. That defeats the purpose of holding a WCS for each region. You want additional Korean slots in WCS World because they're the better players? Then have WCS Korea yield additional spots.
An expanded spots system is better than this hack of a system because, at the minimum, it is a competition of skill, and not your ability to fly over to NA. These players - and I'm talking about all the players who played in WCS NA without being forced to do so - are going through a loophole where they actively dodge the better players in their own region for a competitive advantage.
They have no business doing this. There are two ways people view WCS NA. One is that it ought to reward the best players, in which case dodging competition is the last thing we want players to do. The other is that it's about regional competition and supporting the regional scenes, in which case each region ought to have region lock and its own local players fly to WCS world.
WCS NA has achieved neither. Instead, we have a system which rewards competition dodging and fails to support NA players at the same time.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On May 24 2013 07:08 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 13:28 elijah.snow wrote:On May 23 2013 12:53 sitromit wrote:
Here are some hard numbers from FIFA World Cup, since people bring it up often:
Africa: 54 countries, 5 spots
Asia: 49 countries, 4.5 spots
Europe: 50 countries, 13 spots
South America: 12 countries, 4.5 spots This would translate in WCS Season Final spots like that: Korea: 10 spots Europe 5.5 spots NA: 0.5 spots. I think both sides have valid points. The WCS idea is to have three continental events of equal strength but WCS America will be soon a second Code S and there are a lot of esports fans out there that still want to watch their local heros. This is a problem but it is not necessarily the best solution to change to tournament structure. The best solution would be to increase the skill level of the american players but how to achieve that? What people are not understanding is that it is the WCS format itself that is broken. What is the purpose of WCS NA? It's not to provide NA viewers with a GSL at 3 PM PST / 6 PM EST. It's to provide a level playing field for players in the NA region - ie those who play on the NA server. This was not designed to be a shortcut for Korean players to bypass WCS Korea. That defeats the purpose of holding a WCS NA. You want additional Korean slots in WCS World because they're the better players? Then have WCS Korea yield additional spots. An expanded spots system is fundamentally better than this hack of a system because, at the minimum, it is a competition of skill, and not your ability to fly over to NA. These players - and I'm talking about all the players who played in WCS NA without being forced to do so - are going through a loophole where they actively dodge the better players in their own region for a competitive advantage. They have no business doing this. There are two ways people view WCS NA. One is that it ought to reward the best players, in which case dodging competition is the last thing we want players to do. The other is that it's about regional competition and supporting the regional scenes, in which case each region ought to have region lock and its own local players fly to WCS world. WCS NA has achieved neither. Instead, we have a system which rewards competition dodging and fails to support NA players at the same time.
and who are you to say what the purpose of WCS AM was to be or not? blizzard works in their own ways
while i don't like the current WCS format either, let's not post misinformation please
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On May 24 2013 07:08 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 13:28 elijah.snow wrote:On May 23 2013 12:53 sitromit wrote:
Here are some hard numbers from FIFA World Cup, since people bring it up often:
Africa: 54 countries, 5 spots
Asia: 49 countries, 4.5 spots
Europe: 50 countries, 13 spots
South America: 12 countries, 4.5 spots This would translate in WCS Season Final spots like that: Korea: 10 spots Europe 5.5 spots NA: 0.5 spots. I think both sides have valid points. The WCS idea is to have three continental events of equal strength but WCS America will be soon a second Code S and there are a lot of esports fans out there that still want to watch their local heros. This is a problem but it is not necessarily the best solution to change to tournament structure. The best solution would be to increase the skill level of the american players but how to achieve that? What people are not understanding is that it is the WCS format itself that is broken. What is the purpose of WCS NA? It's not to provide NA viewers with a GSL at 3 PM PST / 6 PM EST. It's to provide a level playing field for players in the NA region - ie those who play on the NA server. This was not designed to be a shortcut for Korean players to bypass WCS Korea. That defeats the purpose of holding a WCS NA. You want additional Korean slots in WCS World because they're the better players? Then have WCS Korea yield additional spots.
An expanded spots system is better than this hack of a system because, at the minimum, it is a competition of skill, and not your ability to fly over to NA. These players - and I'm talking about all the players who played in WCS NA without being forced to do so - are going through a loophole where they actively dodge the better players in their own region for a competitive advantage.
They have no business doing this. There are two ways people view WCS NA. One is that it ought to reward the best players, in which case dodging competition is the last thing we want players to do. The other is that it's about regional competition and supporting the regional scenes, in which case each region ought to have region lock and its own local players fly to WCS world. WCS NA has achieved neither. Instead, we have a system which rewards competition dodging and fails to support NA players at the same time.
That´s actually an excellent point Azarkon. Never really thought about it like that but you might be right.
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On May 24 2013 07:12 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 07:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 23 2013 13:28 elijah.snow wrote:On May 23 2013 12:53 sitromit wrote:
Here are some hard numbers from FIFA World Cup, since people bring it up often:
Africa: 54 countries, 5 spots
Asia: 49 countries, 4.5 spots
Europe: 50 countries, 13 spots
South America: 12 countries, 4.5 spots This would translate in WCS Season Final spots like that: Korea: 10 spots Europe 5.5 spots NA: 0.5 spots. I think both sides have valid points. The WCS idea is to have three continental events of equal strength but WCS America will be soon a second Code S and there are a lot of esports fans out there that still want to watch their local heros. This is a problem but it is not necessarily the best solution to change to tournament structure. The best solution would be to increase the skill level of the american players but how to achieve that? What people are not understanding is that it is the WCS format itself that is broken. What is the purpose of WCS NA? It's not to provide NA viewers with a GSL at 3 PM PST / 6 PM EST. It's to provide a level playing field for players in the NA region - ie those who play on the NA server. This was not designed to be a shortcut for Korean players to bypass WCS Korea. That defeats the purpose of holding a WCS NA. You want additional Korean slots in WCS World because they're the better players? Then have WCS Korea yield additional spots. An expanded spots system is fundamentally better than this hack of a system because, at the minimum, it is a competition of skill, and not your ability to fly over to NA. These players - and I'm talking about all the players who played in WCS NA without being forced to do so - are going through a loophole where they actively dodge the better players in their own region for a competitive advantage. They have no business doing this. There are two ways people view WCS NA. One is that it ought to reward the best players, in which case dodging competition is the last thing we want players to do. The other is that it's about regional competition and supporting the regional scenes, in which case each region ought to have region lock and its own local players fly to WCS world. WCS NA has achieved neither. Instead, we have a system which rewards competition dodging and fails to support NA players at the same time. and who are you to say what the purpose of WCS AM was to be or not? blizzard works in their own ways while i don't like the current WCS format either, let's not post misinformation please
Well it kind of contradicts itself doesn't it? Why have "America" in the title? Why have regions at all? Why not make everything one gigantic online tournament?
It's pretty clear what Blizzard intended to do. Hell, they actually did a better job last WCS - at least then they enforced region-locks to some extent. They just didn't do it right this time.
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On May 24 2013 07:12 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 07:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 23 2013 13:28 elijah.snow wrote:On May 23 2013 12:53 sitromit wrote:
Here are some hard numbers from FIFA World Cup, since people bring it up often:
Africa: 54 countries, 5 spots
Asia: 49 countries, 4.5 spots
Europe: 50 countries, 13 spots
South America: 12 countries, 4.5 spots This would translate in WCS Season Final spots like that: Korea: 10 spots Europe 5.5 spots NA: 0.5 spots. I think both sides have valid points. The WCS idea is to have three continental events of equal strength but WCS America will be soon a second Code S and there are a lot of esports fans out there that still want to watch their local heros. This is a problem but it is not necessarily the best solution to change to tournament structure. The best solution would be to increase the skill level of the american players but how to achieve that? What people are not understanding is that it is the WCS format itself that is broken. What is the purpose of WCS NA? It's not to provide NA viewers with a GSL at 3 PM PST / 6 PM EST. It's to provide a level playing field for players in the NA region - ie those who play on the NA server. This was not designed to be a shortcut for Korean players to bypass WCS Korea. That defeats the purpose of holding a WCS NA. You want additional Korean slots in WCS World because they're the better players? Then have WCS Korea yield additional spots. An expanded spots system is fundamentally better than this hack of a system because, at the minimum, it is a competition of skill, and not your ability to fly over to NA. These players - and I'm talking about all the players who played in WCS NA without being forced to do so - are going through a loophole where they actively dodge the better players in their own region for a competitive advantage. They have no business doing this. There are two ways people view WCS NA. One is that it ought to reward the best players, in which case dodging competition is the last thing we want players to do. The other is that it's about regional competition and supporting the regional scenes, in which case each region ought to have region lock and its own local players fly to WCS world. WCS NA has achieved neither. Instead, we have a system which rewards competition dodging and fails to support NA players at the same time. and who are you to say what the purpose of WCS AM was to be or not? blizzard works in their own ways while i don't like the current WCS format either, let's not post misinformation please
What else is it for?
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On May 24 2013 07:13 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 07:12 opterown wrote:On May 24 2013 07:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 23 2013 13:28 elijah.snow wrote:On May 23 2013 12:53 sitromit wrote:
Here are some hard numbers from FIFA World Cup, since people bring it up often:
Africa: 54 countries, 5 spots
Asia: 49 countries, 4.5 spots
Europe: 50 countries, 13 spots
South America: 12 countries, 4.5 spots This would translate in WCS Season Final spots like that: Korea: 10 spots Europe 5.5 spots NA: 0.5 spots. I think both sides have valid points. The WCS idea is to have three continental events of equal strength but WCS America will be soon a second Code S and there are a lot of esports fans out there that still want to watch their local heros. This is a problem but it is not necessarily the best solution to change to tournament structure. The best solution would be to increase the skill level of the american players but how to achieve that? What people are not understanding is that it is the WCS format itself that is broken. What is the purpose of WCS NA? It's not to provide NA viewers with a GSL at 3 PM PST / 6 PM EST. It's to provide a level playing field for players in the NA region - ie those who play on the NA server. This was not designed to be a shortcut for Korean players to bypass WCS Korea. That defeats the purpose of holding a WCS NA. You want additional Korean slots in WCS World because they're the better players? Then have WCS Korea yield additional spots. An expanded spots system is fundamentally better than this hack of a system because, at the minimum, it is a competition of skill, and not your ability to fly over to NA. These players - and I'm talking about all the players who played in WCS NA without being forced to do so - are going through a loophole where they actively dodge the better players in their own region for a competitive advantage. They have no business doing this. There are two ways people view WCS NA. One is that it ought to reward the best players, in which case dodging competition is the last thing we want players to do. The other is that it's about regional competition and supporting the regional scenes, in which case each region ought to have region lock and its own local players fly to WCS world. WCS NA has achieved neither. Instead, we have a system which rewards competition dodging and fails to support NA players at the same time. and who are you to say what the purpose of WCS AM was to be or not? blizzard works in their own ways while i don't like the current WCS format either, let's not post misinformation please Well it kind of contradicts itself doesn't it? Why have "America" in the title? Why have regions at all? Why not make everything one gigantic online tournament? It's pretty clear what Blizzard intended to do. Hell, they actually did a better job last WCS - at least then they enforced region-locks to some extent. They just didn't do it right this time.
because it's played in america during a time suitable for americas? i dno, ask blizzard
On May 24 2013 07:15 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 07:12 opterown wrote:On May 24 2013 07:08 Azarkon wrote:On May 23 2013 13:28 elijah.snow wrote:On May 23 2013 12:53 sitromit wrote:
Here are some hard numbers from FIFA World Cup, since people bring it up often:
Africa: 54 countries, 5 spots
Asia: 49 countries, 4.5 spots
Europe: 50 countries, 13 spots
South America: 12 countries, 4.5 spots This would translate in WCS Season Final spots like that: Korea: 10 spots Europe 5.5 spots NA: 0.5 spots. I think both sides have valid points. The WCS idea is to have three continental events of equal strength but WCS America will be soon a second Code S and there are a lot of esports fans out there that still want to watch their local heros. This is a problem but it is not necessarily the best solution to change to tournament structure. The best solution would be to increase the skill level of the american players but how to achieve that? What people are not understanding is that it is the WCS format itself that is broken. What is the purpose of WCS NA? It's not to provide NA viewers with a GSL at 3 PM PST / 6 PM EST. It's to provide a level playing field for players in the NA region - ie those who play on the NA server. This was not designed to be a shortcut for Korean players to bypass WCS Korea. That defeats the purpose of holding a WCS NA. You want additional Korean slots in WCS World because they're the better players? Then have WCS Korea yield additional spots. An expanded spots system is fundamentally better than this hack of a system because, at the minimum, it is a competition of skill, and not your ability to fly over to NA. These players - and I'm talking about all the players who played in WCS NA without being forced to do so - are going through a loophole where they actively dodge the better players in their own region for a competitive advantage. They have no business doing this. There are two ways people view WCS NA. One is that it ought to reward the best players, in which case dodging competition is the last thing we want players to do. The other is that it's about regional competition and supporting the regional scenes, in which case each region ought to have region lock and its own local players fly to WCS world. WCS NA has achieved neither. Instead, we have a system which rewards competition dodging and fails to support NA players at the same time. and who are you to say what the purpose of WCS AM was to be or not? blizzard works in their own ways while i don't like the current WCS format either, let's not post misinformation please What else is it for?
you mentioned one possibility yourself "to provide NA viewers with a GSL at 3 PM PST / 6 PM EST"
i'm not saying that is what they aimed for, but without a clear statement from blizzard we can't conclude anything
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On May 24 2013 07:15 opterown wrote:
you mentioned one possibility yourself "to provide NA viewers with a GSL at 3 PM PST / 6 PM EST"
i'm not saying that is what they aimed for, but without a clear statement from blizzard we can't conclude anything
That's ludicrous. First of all, 3 PM PST is in the middle of the day for West Coast Americans, who make up a huge chunk of NA Starcraft fans - and is thus not a viable time slot. That's why NASL held their showings from 6 PM PST to 9 PM PST - because that's the prime time slot for American viewers on PST and CST, while EST folks are still able to work around it given a 8-5 work day.
Second, had they wanted to run a GSL at NA time, there is an easier and better way - hold it on the Korean server at 6 PM PST, which is around the time Koreans start their day.
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so is there anyone not from the Americas that would rather see only american players in WCS NA?
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On May 24 2013 08:01 Schelim wrote:
so is there anyone not from the Americas that would rather see only american players in WCS NA?
Me. I'm from Europe.
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On May 24 2013 08:01 Schelim wrote:
so is there anyone not from the Americas that would rather see only american players in WCS NA?
No, couldn't care less about 4th tier NA "pros", and I'm a Canadian living in China. Have always disliked Scarlett (patch zerg!) and I get a sense of satisfaction whenever I see the sad likes of qxc or machine get demolished and toyed around by Koreans.
BW survived just fine for more than 10 years in Korea, so as long as Proleague (one team league) and GSL (one individual league) exist I couldn't give less of a fuck for sc dying outside of Korea, because I only have so much leisure time and I'd rather watch the likes of Soulkey and Flash than some terribad NA "pros".
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On May 24 2013 09:51 EngrishTeacher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 08:01 Schelim wrote:
so is there anyone not from the Americas that would rather see only american players in WCS NA? No, couldn't care less about 4th tier NA "pros", and I'm a Canadian living in China. Have always disliked Scarlett (patch zerg!) and I get a sense of satisfaction whenever I see the sad likes of qxc or machine get demolished and toyed around by Koreans. BW survived just fine for more than 10 years in Korea, so as long as Proleague (one team league) and GSL (one individual league) exist I couldn't give less of a fuck for sc dying outside of Korea, because I only have so much leisure time and I'd rather watch the likes of Soulkey and Flash than some terribad NA "pros".
I'm sure all 10 of you is going to have a fun time
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On May 24 2013 09:51 EngrishTeacher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 08:01 Schelim wrote:
so is there anyone not from the Americas that would rather see only american players in WCS NA? No, couldn't care less about 4th tier NA "pros", and I'm a Canadian living in China. Have always disliked Scarlett (patch zerg!) and I get a sense of satisfaction whenever I see the sad likes of qxc or machine get demolished and toyed around by Koreans. BW survived just fine for more than 10 years in Korea, so as long as Proleague (one team league) and GSL (one individual league) exist I couldn't give less of a fuck for sc dying outside of Korea, because I only have so much leisure time and I'd rather watch the likes of Soulkey and Flash than some terribad NA "pros".
without international scene, sc2 will die in korea
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maybe, but the international scene won't die because there are Koreans in WCS NA season 1. come on bro.
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Austria24422 Posts
On May 24 2013 15:19 Schelim wrote:
maybe, but the international scene won't die because there are Koreans in WCS NA season 1. come on bro.
Yeah and that's not the point. Well, it wouldn't be the point if people were smart enough to think a little further and understand that what really matters here is one thing and one thing only - what Blizzard wants WCS to be.
Instead we get stupid comments like "I'm done watching this because Koreans in WCS NA". Well kthx, you're not helping anybody with that.
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I care a bit more about challenger, to be brutally honest. Not to say it's a terrible evil thing htere are koreans in wcs NA, but I just don't think I"ll watch it. (LR good enough for me, unless games are exceptional)
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EPT
