|
On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with Koreans Get it yet? It's not that hard.
A non-regional world tournament is destroying the regional SC2 scenes?
Sorry, no, WCS NA is not "killing e-sports". That's crazy sensationalism.
|
On May 24 2013 05:48 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 05:43 Leporello wrote:On May 24 2013 05:36 hitpoint wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? So this is like the World Series of baseball now? Except every team is going to be from Korea instead. Seems like an appropriate comparison. On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
There are plenty of NA-only tournaments Perhaps you'd like to list your top 5 favorite NA only tournaments. Or top 4..or top 3? Can you name 2 NA only tournaments? I can look at my "Upcoming events" bar and see several NA tournaments. "Toronto Elite Series" is in 1d17h. Just because I don't watch them, doesn't mean they don't exist. So you think the "World" in "World Championship Starcraft" shouldn't be taken literally, and we should just keep the Koreans away from everybody else? How is that helping anything in the long run? The whole reason for the WCS is to see the Koreans and foreigners become more connected and competitive with each other. Stop trying to ruin it. I assumed we were talking about major tournaments, since that's obviously all we should be talking about. You still haven't named two of those. I'll take SCA as one, now the trouble is finding a second. What about the WCS last year kept the Koreans away from our best players? You have regional championships and then send them to a world series. A format that basically everyone agreed was better, funner, smarter etc. It's a format followed by legitimate major sports. Don't be dense on purpose to try to make a point, you know how the Americas can have region lock and then still crown a world champion, considering it JUST HAPPENED. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_StarCraft_II_World_Championship_Series
Yes, we can separate Koreans from foreigners for MOST of the tournament, and then the Koreans can just dominate in the end.
But that's not taking us anywhere. It's not improving the scene.
Look at TLO's results in WCS EU. What makes them amazing isn't just that he beat the EU scene. He faced-off against some big-name Koreans (EDIT: not MVP yet, my bad, that's next round, forgot).
But whatever, Koreans aren't in need of special treatment. They can lose to good foreigners. It's just NA doesn't seem to have developed the talent. That doesn't mean we should get some special no-Korean handicap.
|
On May 24 2013 05:50 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with Koreans Get it yet? It's not that hard. A non-regional world tournament is destroying the regional SC2 scenes? Sorry, no, WCS NA is not "killing e-sports". That's crazy sensationalism.
Well if you want to go into this territory. I think with what they are doing to SCA, NASL, any medium sized tournament with a 10k+ prize pool, and North and South American gamers that are going to have to beat code S caliber Koreans to give their sponsors exposure, they are quite literally killing some aspects of esports.
Yes, we can separate Koreans from foreigners for MOST of the tournament, and then the Koreans can just dominate in the end.
But that's not taking us anywhere. It's not improving the scene.
And this is actually just completely wrong on so many levels. WCS EU was basically the most viewed tournament last year, it was fucking huge, and it allowed many players to break out. Same with WCS NA to a lesser degree. Remember Scarlett ? You might not if there were 8 Koreans at the Canadian or NA championships last year. The region locked tournaments were nothing but good for the scene. Now watch as the NA premier league numbers plummet and tell me that's good for the scene.
|
On May 24 2013 05:50 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with Koreans Get it yet? It's not that hard. A non-regional world tournament is destroying the regional SC2 scenes? Sorry, no, WCS NA is not "killing e-sports". That's crazy sensationalism.
It was intended to be a "regional" tournament into a grand-finals "world tournament". Hence the words "America, European, Korean" in front of the "WCS".
It was intended this way because all parties involved knew that to gain the most notoriety and best viewership they must welcome all types of viewership into the fold by giving local populations the players and story-lines that they can best relate to.
The American scene has been suppressed from growth for a long, long time by Korean dominance. The first MLG's that had no Korean participates were a great success. Remember that most foreign players that "made their name" are from the Beta and the first foreigners tournaments? Audience growth is dependent on relating to the players and the tournament.
Once again, if people like you had their way we would just have GSL still, the occasional Foreigner Tournament which would have a Korean champion (who only has an interest in Prize-Money - not relating to the fans) and no prospect for growth. You're just not thinking about the future, or any further than your own personal wants/desires regarding the game.
|
On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard.
This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others.
|
On May 24 2013 05:55 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 05:50 Leporello wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with Koreans Get it yet? It's not that hard. A non-regional world tournament is destroying the regional SC2 scenes? Sorry, no, WCS NA is not "killing e-sports". That's crazy sensationalism. Well if you want to go into this territory. I think with what they are doing to SCA, NASL, any medium sized tournament with a 10k+ prize pool, and North and South American gamers that are going to have to beat code S caliber Koreans to give their sponsors exposure, they are quite literally killing some aspects of esports. Show nested quote +Yes, we can separate Koreans from foreigners for MOST of the tournament, and then the Koreans can just dominate in the end.
But that's not taking us anywhere. It's not improving the scene. And this is actually just completely wrong on so many levels. WCS EU was basically the most viewed tournament last year, it was fucking huge, and it allowed many players to break out. Same with WCS NA to a lesser degree. Remember Scarlett ? You might not if there were 8 Koreans at the Canadian or NA championships last year. The region locked tournaments were nothing but good for the scene. Now watch as the NA premier league numbers plummet and tell me that's good for the scene.
Scarlett has made just as much of a name for herself by going to Korea and playing in the GSTL with Axiom, I think. A lot of us here don't care about nationality, not even our own, we just want to see the BEST players, and Scarlett proved herself by playing with the BEST.
I do agree that it's good to have regional tournaments. They're great. You guys are acting like I'm arguing against regional tournaments. By all means, let's have a grand-scale EU and NA tournament of the same structure as the WCS.
But let's also have a World Tournament that seeks to put Koreans and foreigners together, competitively, at all rounds. I think in the long-run, it's for the best.
|
On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others.
There are story-lines regarding a select few Koreans who try to relate to foreigners audiences. In the grand scheme of things, this is like 5% of the Korean player pool that competes in the foreigner tournaments.
Also, are you really going to argue this with facts that support the opposite?
Fact: foreigner viewership drops massively when foreigners are either not present in the tournament, or eliminated. I'm sorry it is this way, but it's just the truth.
|
On May 24 2013 06:04 Leporello wrote:
Scarlett has made just as much of a name for herself by going to Korea and playing in the GSTL with Axiom, I think.
No actually she was well known for a long time before she went to GSTL to play with Axiom-Acer.
On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others.
Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans.
|
On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans.
They don't, we've had a long time to develop the fan bases of players and a final with Mvp vs a foreigner will do significantly better than foreigner vs foreigner. Flash vs Life at MLG had 135-140k concurrent viewers, the highest of the tournament, compared to 80-90k for the matches with foreigners on Saturday.
The finals weekend will still get good viewership, mostly because weekends always do better than weekdays.
If you think I'm wrong then vote with your eyeballs and don't watch the finals weekend, we shall see.
|
On May 24 2013 06:10 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans. They don't
I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying your facts are wrong. MLG's events have always seen drops in the viewer count when the last foreigner was eliminated.
|
On May 24 2013 06:04 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 05:55 hitpoint wrote:On May 24 2013 05:50 Leporello wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with Koreans Get it yet? It's not that hard. A non-regional world tournament is destroying the regional SC2 scenes? Sorry, no, WCS NA is not "killing e-sports". That's crazy sensationalism. Well if you want to go into this territory. I think with what they are doing to SCA, NASL, any medium sized tournament with a 10k+ prize pool, and North and South American gamers that are going to have to beat code S caliber Koreans to give their sponsors exposure, they are quite literally killing some aspects of esports. Yes, we can separate Koreans from foreigners for MOST of the tournament, and then the Koreans can just dominate in the end.
But that's not taking us anywhere. It's not improving the scene. And this is actually just completely wrong on so many levels. WCS EU was basically the most viewed tournament last year, it was fucking huge, and it allowed many players to break out. Same with WCS NA to a lesser degree. Remember Scarlett ? You might not if there were 8 Koreans at the Canadian or NA championships last year. The region locked tournaments were nothing but good for the scene. Now watch as the NA premier league numbers plummet and tell me that's good for the scene. Scarlett has made just as much of a name for herself by going to Korea and playing in the GSTL with Axiom, I think. I do agree that it's good to have regional tournaments. They're great. You guys are acting like I'm arguing against regional tournaments. By all means, let's have a grand-scale EU and NA tournament of the same structure as the WCS. But let's also have a World Tournament that seeks to put Koreans and foreigners together, competitively, at all rounds. I think in the long-run, it's for the best.
You are missing my point about Scarlett. She wouldn't be in Korea or playing with Axiom if she didn't break out in the first place. She made her name by 2-0ing Huk at WCS Canada on her way to winning it, and then destroying everyone at WCS NA. Before that she was just a foreign zerg that went 1-2 against Koreans at IPL 4 before being knocked out of the open bracket.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on the rest. I don't know what else to say that hasn't already been said.
|
On May 24 2013 06:12 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:10 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans. They don't I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying your facts are wrong. MLG's events have always seen drops in the viewer count when the last foreigner was eliminated.
No, your facts are wrong. The facts are that the finals for the most recent MLG had the highest concurrent viewer count of the tournament, despite all the foreigners being eliminated before the Ro8.
|
On May 24 2013 06:10 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans. They don't, we've had a long time to develop the fan bases of players and a final with Mvp vs a foreigner will do significantly better than foreigner vs foreigner. Flash vs Life at MLG had 135-140k concurrent viewers, the highest of the tournament, compared to 80-90k for the matches with foreigners on Saturday. The finals weekend will still get good viewership, mostly because weekends always do better than weekdays. If you think I'm wrong then vote with your eyeballs and don't watch the finals weekend, we shall see.
We can definitely agree that a select few Korean players will get strong foreigner-viewership. However, this is typically in the case of said Korean playing a foreigner in a major tournament. I have rarely if ever seen a Korean vs Korean match in a major tournament that wasn't dwarfed in viewership by Korean vs Foreigner or Foreigner vs Foreigner. The tournament knows this. The pro's know this. Why do you think all the pro's state this constantly on the talk shows? Are you smarter than them, have more inside information than they do?
|
On May 24 2013 06:13 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:12 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:10 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans. They don't I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying your facts are wrong. MLG's events have always seen drops in the viewer count when the last foreigner was eliminated. No, your facts are wrong. The facts are that the finals for the most recent MLG had the highest concurrent viewer count of the tournament, despite all the foreigners being eliminated before the Ro8.
Sorry man, your facts are incorrect. It's true that the finals may have slightly more concurrent than lets say, the round of 16 matches with Foreigners. But let's be real here - a Foreigner vs Foreigner finals, or a Korean vs Foreigner finals would have triple the viewership.
|
On May 24 2013 06:15 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:13 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:12 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:10 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans. They don't I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying your facts are wrong. MLG's events have always seen drops in the viewer count when the last foreigner was eliminated. No, your facts are wrong. The facts are that the finals for the most recent MLG had the highest concurrent viewer count of the tournament, despite all the foreigners being eliminated before the Ro8. Sorry man, your facts are incorrect. It's true that the finals may have slightly more concurrent than lets say, the round of 16 matches with Foreigners. But let's be real here - a Foreigner vs Foreigner finals, or a Korean vs Foreigner finals would have triple the viewership.
Yeah, clearly we would have had 420k concurrent viewers if only a white guy had made it to the finals. That's a ridiculous statement to make and is in no way true. The finals did not have " slightly " more viewers, it had at least 50k more concurrent viewers.
|
You're comparing the finals and the Ro16. Compare the viewer count for Ro16 Kr vs Kr and Foreigner vs Kr or Foreigner vs Foreigner and it's another story.
|
On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others.
Dodgin I respect you immensely as a poster but you wrong here. WCS EU last year was the highest watched tournament in 2012
Fact is the fans who only want to see high level starcraft is a very little minority. Just look at WCS NA and then compared it to WCS EU or Shoutcraft.
The casual fans don't care about "high level" starcraft they care about there players. And is like that in every single sport in the world!
|
On May 24 2013 06:17 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:15 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 06:13 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:12 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:10 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans. They don't I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying your facts are wrong. MLG's events have always seen drops in the viewer count when the last foreigner was eliminated. No, your facts are wrong. The facts are that the finals for the most recent MLG had the highest concurrent viewer count of the tournament, despite all the foreigners being eliminated before the Ro8. Sorry man, your facts are incorrect. It's true that the finals may have slightly more concurrent than lets say, the round of 16 matches with Foreigners. But let's be real here - a Foreigner vs Foreigner finals, or a Korean vs Foreigner finals would have triple the viewership. Yeah, clearly we would have had 420k concurrent viewers if only a white guy had made it to the finals. That's a ridiculous statement to make and is in no way true. The finals did not have " slightly " more viewers, it had at least 50k more concurrent viewers.
Then I suppose we'll all shut up then, as you clearly know better than every tournament, every figure in e-sports and professional player/personality in the industry who are constantly preaching storylines, growing the foreigner player-base so fans can relate to them and enforcing region-locks.
And even if your "fact" has any truth (which you should really source a this point btw), we can show you the "facts" 100 times over that tournaments usually lose foreigner viewership when foreigner personalities are eliminated.
I do respect your point of view, but it is incredibly frustrating that some people look at the situation with a short-term perspective. In a perfect world skill would be all that matters. But it's not perfect, and if we really want long-term growth in SC2 we're going to have to get with the program and give the masses what they want: players they can really relate to.
|
I'm not disagreeing that the there is a potential for more viewers if a fan favorite foreign player like Naniwa or Stephano makes it to the finals, I'm just disagreeing with this:
On May 24 2013 06:12 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:10 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans. They don't I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying your facts are wrong. MLG's events have always seen drops in the viewer count when the last foreigner was eliminated.
This is wrong, end of story.
|
On May 24 2013 06:23 Dodgin wrote:I'm not disagreeing that the there is a potential for more viewers if a fan favorite foreign player like Naniwa or Stephano makes it to the finals, I'm just disagreeing with this: Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:12 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:10 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans. They don't I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying your facts are wrong. MLG's events have always seen drops in the viewer count when the last foreigner was eliminated. This is wrong, end of story.
He's not wrong. Sorry bud. I've watched every MLG. Every single one since the very, very beginning. It's true except in rare instances and perhaps the finals vs round of 16.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
