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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
can someone please get up group D thread if there isn't one
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On May 24 2013 06:23 Dodgin wrote:I'm not disagreeing that the there is a potential for more viewers if a fan favorite foreign player like Naniwa or Stephano makes it to the finals, I'm just disagreeing with this: Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:12 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:10 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans. They don't I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying your facts are wrong. MLG's events have always seen drops in the viewer count when the last foreigner was eliminated. This is wrong, end of story.
I'm not talking about potential!
I'm talking about we are losing starcraft fans in north America very fast. 2 Years ago I remember Team liquid had a massive North American fan base. Today looking at Team liquid is like where did the NA fan base go?
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On May 24 2013 06:29 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:23 Dodgin wrote:I'm not disagreeing that the there is a potential for more viewers if a fan favorite foreign player like Naniwa or Stephano makes it to the finals, I'm just disagreeing with this: On May 24 2013 06:12 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:10 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans. They don't I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying your facts are wrong. MLG's events have always seen drops in the viewer count when the last foreigner was eliminated. This is wrong, end of story. I'm not talking about potential! I'm talking about we are losing starcraft fans in north America very fast. 2 Years ago I remember Team liquid had a massive North American fan base. Today looking at Team liquid is like where did the NA fan base go?
shellbot absorbed them all to make the perfect being
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On May 24 2013 06:27 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:23 Dodgin wrote:I'm not disagreeing that the there is a potential for more viewers if a fan favorite foreign player like Naniwa or Stephano makes it to the finals, I'm just disagreeing with this: On May 24 2013 06:12 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:10 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans. They don't I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying your facts are wrong. MLG's events have always seen drops in the viewer count when the last foreigner was eliminated. This is wrong, end of story. He's not wrong. Sorry bud. I've watched every MLG. Every single one since the very, very beginning. It's true except in rare instances and perhaps the finals vs round of 16.
" It's true "
" except in rare instances and perhaps the finals vs round of 16 "
You just contradicted yourself, It's not true.
Here's a " source " http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403331¤tpage=501#10017 you can find other posts in the following pages also discussing the viewers.
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On May 24 2013 06:29 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:23 Dodgin wrote:I'm not disagreeing that the there is a potential for more viewers if a fan favorite foreign player like Naniwa or Stephano makes it to the finals, I'm just disagreeing with this: On May 24 2013 06:12 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:10 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans. They don't I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying your facts are wrong. MLG's events have always seen drops in the viewer count when the last foreigner was eliminated. This is wrong, end of story. I'm not talking about potential! I'm talking about we are losing starcraft fans in north America very fast. 2 Years ago I remember Team liquid had a massive North American fan base. Today looking at Team liquid is like where did the NA fan base go?
Of course it's dying. Where are the North American players to root for in the big tourneys? There's a handful at best. We need to focus on developing the talent that's there, supporting them financially by giving them opportunities to earn money without some Korean coming in to make a quick buck then leaving without a word.
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On May 24 2013 06:30 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:27 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 06:23 Dodgin wrote:I'm not disagreeing that the there is a potential for more viewers if a fan favorite foreign player like Naniwa or Stephano makes it to the finals, I'm just disagreeing with this: On May 24 2013 06:12 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:10 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans. They don't I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying your facts are wrong. MLG's events have always seen drops in the viewer count when the last foreigner was eliminated. This is wrong, end of story. He's not wrong. Sorry bud. I've watched every MLG. Every single one since the very, very beginning. It's true except in rare instances and perhaps the finals vs round of 16. " It's true " " except in rare instances and perhaps the finals vs round of 16 " You just contradicted yourself, It's not true. Here's a " source " http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403331¤tpage=501#10017 you can find other posts in the following pages also discussing the viewers.
I would love to see some solid data set I'm wondering if MLG got stats on that. Personally I have also noticed a massive drop in viewer-ship when the last NA or foreigner was knocked out.
But frankly we don't even have to discuss this look at the WCS NA viewer ship numbers and then look at shoutcraft. Shoutcraft had a lot more viewers
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On May 24 2013 06:29 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:23 Dodgin wrote:I'm not disagreeing that the there is a potential for more viewers if a fan favorite foreign player like Naniwa or Stephano makes it to the finals, I'm just disagreeing with this: On May 24 2013 06:12 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:10 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans. They don't I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying your facts are wrong. MLG's events have always seen drops in the viewer count when the last foreigner was eliminated. This is wrong, end of story. I'm not talking about potential! I'm talking about we are losing starcraft fans in north America very fast. 2 Years ago I remember Team liquid had a massive North American fan base. Today looking at Team liquid is like where did the NA fan base go?
The NA fan base who only likes NA players moved onto something else, because none of their players could compete with consistency. Yeah that sucks, but it is what it is. WCS AM with only AM players won't bring those fans back, most of them don't want to see AM playing competing amongst themselves for who is the best of the worst. What they want is the old times with Idra's and HuK's who could win large international premier tournaments with Koreans in them.
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On May 24 2013 06:35 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:29 Benjamin99 wrote:On May 24 2013 06:23 Dodgin wrote:I'm not disagreeing that the there is a potential for more viewers if a fan favorite foreign player like Naniwa or Stephano makes it to the finals, I'm just disagreeing with this: On May 24 2013 06:12 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:10 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans. They don't I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying your facts are wrong. MLG's events have always seen drops in the viewer count when the last foreigner was eliminated. This is wrong, end of story. I'm not talking about potential! I'm talking about we are losing starcraft fans in north America very fast. 2 Years ago I remember Team liquid had a massive North American fan base. Today looking at Team liquid is like where did the NA fan base go? The NA fan base who only likes NA players moved onto something else, because none of their players could compete with consistency. Yeah that sucks, but it is what it is. WCS AM with only AM players won't bring those fans back, most of them don't want to see AM playing competing amongst themselves for who is the best of the worst. What they want is the old times with Idra's and HuK's who could win large international premier tournaments with Koreans in them.
The NA scene never got a chance. I said this a few pages back. What would had happen to the Korean BW scene if hypotherical Boxer suddenly had to play a bunch of Chinese professional who was 10 years ahead of them. No Boxer, no Bisu no Flash. No Korean pro gaming scene.
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Finals are finals. I don't know who is factually correct but I don't find it surprising that the finals would have big numbers even with Korean vs Korean. It would take insane amounts of disinterest for people to not watch the finals of a tournament that they've been following for 3 days. I think these guys see an immediate dip in numbers once the foreigners are knocked out, which absolutely does seem to happen. I think everyone notices that. But then it climbs back up for the finals just by virtue of being the finals. Potential viewership has to be lost there. Ro16 with foreigners vs finals without, is perhaps not the best comparison.
Plus Life vs Flash is literally the dream scenario for a tournament. No Koreans could draw bigger numbers than those two at the time. I think we can agree that if the finals of the last MLG were any combination of Thorzain, Stephano, Huk or Ret, that the numbers would have been at least comparable and probably even surpassed Flash vs Life. And the numbers in the semis and quarter finals would have been much bigger. People do want to watch their players.
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On May 24 2013 06:30 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:27 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 06:23 Dodgin wrote:I'm not disagreeing that the there is a potential for more viewers if a fan favorite foreign player like Naniwa or Stephano makes it to the finals, I'm just disagreeing with this: On May 24 2013 06:12 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:10 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans. They don't I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying your facts are wrong. MLG's events have always seen drops in the viewer count when the last foreigner was eliminated. This is wrong, end of story. He's not wrong. Sorry bud. I've watched every MLG. Every single one since the very, very beginning. It's true except in rare instances and perhaps the finals vs round of 16. " It's true " " except in rare instances and perhaps the finals vs round of 16 " You just contradicted yourself, It's not true. Here's a " source " http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403331¤tpage=501#10017 you can find other posts in the following pages also discussing the viewers.
Dodgin, there have been hundreds of tournaments since the Beta. Literally hundreds. You're arguing a point based on the viewership of one tournament, which also happened to be the first big tourney for SC2's first expansion HoTs. . .
If I stated at any point that "without exception there are no tournaments that Korean vs Korean gets higher viewership than X", then I recant it. It doesn't change what people are saying on here - that such cases that you mentioned are extremely rare. It doesn't change the truth of the matter. Foreigners prefer to watch Foreigner vs Foreigner or Foreigner vs Korean because they can relate to at least one of the players in the match. They usually can't do this with Koreans. The numbers support this sentiment. So do the pros. So do the tournaments. I can source dozens of personalities behind the e-sports scene that have stated their opinion on this matter.
Hell, Live on Three was just talking about this the other day for like 30 minutes!
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United States97277 Posts
On May 24 2013 06:30 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:29 Benjamin99 wrote:On May 24 2013 06:23 Dodgin wrote:I'm not disagreeing that the there is a potential for more viewers if a fan favorite foreign player like Naniwa or Stephano makes it to the finals, I'm just disagreeing with this: On May 24 2013 06:12 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:10 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans. They don't I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying your facts are wrong. MLG's events have always seen drops in the viewer count when the last foreigner was eliminated. This is wrong, end of story. I'm not talking about potential! I'm talking about we are losing starcraft fans in north America very fast. 2 Years ago I remember Team liquid had a massive North American fan base. Today looking at Team liquid is like where did the NA fan base go? shellbot absorbed them all to make the perfect being
Frostmourne hungers
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On May 24 2013 06:23 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Dodgin I respect you immensely as a poster but you wrong here. WCS EU last year was the highest watched tournament in 2012 Fact is the fans who only want to see high level starcraft is a very little minority. Just look at WCS NA and then compared it to WCS EU or Shoutcraft. The casual fans don't care about "high level" starcraft they care about there players. And is like that in every single sport in the world!
What you're not considering is that WCS EU is high level Starcraft, the best EU players are extremely good players. Now think back to the WCS NA finals last year, very few people watched or cared about it.(partly to do with the way it was handled, happening during the main MLG tournament) WCS NA 2012 was not high level Starcraft, Scarlett won easily, it was one sided and rather boring to watch.
There is an audience for high level Korean games, and It's not a small audience either. Group B of the ro16 for the current GSL season got very very good viewership.
+ Show Spoiler [Group B Viewers] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NHLCCzJ.png) does not include viewers on gomtv.net
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On May 24 2013 06:35 Dodgin wrote:
The NA fan base who only likes NA players moved onto something else, because none of their players could compete with consistency. Yeah that sucks, but it is what it is.
I really think this is because they've never had a tournament they could excel in. We all know this old argument. NA tournaments have been flooded with top Koreans for two and a half years now. The skill gap wasn't always as huge as it is now. Who knows, Europe might have been stunted the same way if Dreamhack and ESL flew in 20 Code A+ Koreans to every event, the way MLG, IPL, to a lesser extend NASL did. I think some of us were hoping WCS would fill that role.
Also, to your above post, those games were definitely boring. They were not bad, low quality, or whatever. They were boring because it was all zvz.
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On May 24 2013 06:38 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:35 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:29 Benjamin99 wrote:On May 24 2013 06:23 Dodgin wrote:I'm not disagreeing that the there is a potential for more viewers if a fan favorite foreign player like Naniwa or Stephano makes it to the finals, I'm just disagreeing with this: On May 24 2013 06:12 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:10 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 06:07 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:03 Dodgin wrote:On May 24 2013 05:45 SCST wrote:On May 24 2013 05:31 Leporello wrote:
I'm personally glad with the results. The better players won.
Do you guys not realize what the "W" in WCS stands for? WCS NA and WCS EU are great because of Koreans. There are plenty of NA-only tournaments, the WCS is our chance to see the best players of all nationalities face-off against each other.
It's great to see Suppy and Scarlett get to play against the likes of HerO and Revival. Maybe next season we'll see the foreigners get better results, but not if we just coddle them away from "those mean Koreans". Do you realize that you are justifying destroying a regional SC2 scene? You think it's "good" to continue watching with the other minority of viewers who only care about skill-level? If we only had people like you in the community, SC2 would be dead long ago. And that includes all the Koreans as well. You think Blizzard would bother to prop-up GoM and Kespa with prize money if the foreign scene were completely dead? There is no SC2 without money. There is no money without sustainable viewership. There is no sustainable viewership without story-lines. There are no story-lines that that foreigners can relate to with KoreansGet it yet? It's not that hard. This is just plain wrong, and you are really ignorant to say such a thing. Some of the biggest Fan Club threads on this website are for Korean players, they have a story behind them and lots of fans. Mvp, Marineking, MC, MMA, Nestea, Parting, Liquid`Hero, Flash, Polt, Bomber and many others. Then why do viewer counts always drop off after the last foreigner is eliminated? The population of TL isn't the average viewer, it's the hard core more Korean centered fans. They don't I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying your facts are wrong. MLG's events have always seen drops in the viewer count when the last foreigner was eliminated. This is wrong, end of story. I'm not talking about potential! I'm talking about we are losing starcraft fans in north America very fast. 2 Years ago I remember Team liquid had a massive North American fan base. Today looking at Team liquid is like where did the NA fan base go? The NA fan base who only likes NA players moved onto something else, because none of their players could compete with consistency. Yeah that sucks, but it is what it is. WCS AM with only AM players won't bring those fans back, most of them don't want to see AM playing competing amongst themselves for who is the best of the worst. What they want is the old times with Idra's and HuK's who could win large international premier tournaments with Koreans in them. The NA scene never got a chance. I said this a few pages back. What would had happen to the Korean BW scene if hypotherical Boxer suddenly had to play a bunch of Chinese professional who was 10 years ahead of them. No Boxer, no Bisu no Flash. No Korean pro gaming scene.
This sums it up. NA had a brief "chance" or "moment" in the beginning near the beta. Within that short time period we gained fans for players like Incontrol, Nony, Idra, Huk etc that lasted literally for years even with lackluster results. Imagine if America had a meaningful tournament like WCS to compete amongst themselves for a while. It would be such a cu for the scene here - the viewership would grow tremendously and the entire SC2 industry would benefit. No one would lose. So why fight against it?
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I'm not fighting against it, I have a problem with claiming things like " Korean players do not have a story that foreign fans are interested in ". or " MLG always loses viewers after the last foreigner is out. "
You can make your points without ignorance and incorrect facts, I would be completely fine with region locked WCS EU & AM, I miss seeing Hero play in GSL.
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On May 24 2013 06:35 Dodgin wrote:
The NA fan base who only likes NA players moved onto something else, because none of their players could compete with consistency. Yeah that sucks, but it is what it is. WCS AM with only AM players won't bring those fans back, most of them don't want to see AM playing competing amongst themselves for who is the best of the worst.
Why did Shoutcraft AM smash WCS AM viewercounts and peak higher then WCS EU at times then?
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On May 24 2013 06:48 Dodgin wrote:
I'm not fighting against it, I have a problem with claiming things like " Korean players do not have a story that foreign fans are interested in ". or " MLG always loses viewers after the last foreigner is out. "
You can make your points without ignorance and incorrect facts, I would be completely fine with region locked WCS EU & AM, I miss seeing Hero play in GSL.
I have no problem acknowledging the language regarding those assertions.
Tournaments usually lose viewers, either relative to their potential or just dipping completely, when the last foreigner is out.
Korean players usually do not have a story that foreign fans are interested in or can relate to.
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On May 24 2013 06:52 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:35 Dodgin wrote:
The NA fan base who only likes NA players moved onto something else, because none of their players could compete with consistency. Yeah that sucks, but it is what it is. WCS AM with only AM players won't bring those fans back, most of them don't want to see AM playing competing amongst themselves for who is the best of the worst. Why did Shoutcraft AM smash WCS AM viewercounts and peak higher then WCS EU at times then?
Because Totalbiscuit and Husky advertized the tournament extremely well, using their large Youtube channels to get viewers that would otherwise not watch live Starcraft 2 tournaments. You also had the anti-WCS AM sentiment in the community at the time of the tournament announcement because of how badly the qualifiers were run, as well as letting Korean players into the tournament. The first day of Shoutcraft AM did extremely well but every day afterwards had significantly less viewers.
Also, I don't believe Shoutcraft AM ever beat WCS EU Premier in viewers, maybe they beat Challenger.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On May 24 2013 06:52 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:35 Dodgin wrote:
The NA fan base who only likes NA players moved onto something else, because none of their players could compete with consistency. Yeah that sucks, but it is what it is. WCS AM with only AM players won't bring those fans back, most of them don't want to see AM playing competing amongst themselves for who is the best of the worst. Why did Shoutcraft AM smash WCS AM viewercounts and peak higher then WCS EU at times then?
TB and other co-casters plus anti-MLG/WCS sentiment
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On May 24 2013 06:56 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:52 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 24 2013 06:35 Dodgin wrote:
The NA fan base who only likes NA players moved onto something else, because none of their players could compete with consistency. Yeah that sucks, but it is what it is. WCS AM with only AM players won't bring those fans back, most of them don't want to see AM playing competing amongst themselves for who is the best of the worst. Why did Shoutcraft AM smash WCS AM viewercounts and peak higher then WCS EU at times then? TB and other co-casters plus anti-MLG/WCS sentiment
Ah but why was there anti-MLG/WCS sentiment?
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EPT
