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On May 06 2013 15:58 kubiks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 12:15 EpiK wrote:On May 06 2013 12:05 Bagration wrote:On May 05 2013 22:27 PhoenixVoid wrote:
Is INoVation even stoppable now? After seeing him dominate the group of death and all-kill EG-TL, I'm even more convinced he is a lock for the GSL finals, and likely the champion. That's what a lot of people said about Bomber 2 years ago. Innovation has been incredibly consistent these past few months (making the Ro4, then the Ro8, and now at least the Ro8 again in the GSL), but he'll have to win that championship to cement his legacy. I'd say soulkey and sos are the top contenders to stop innovation from winning this GSL. If they weren't in it, I'd for sure say he had the championship in the bag. His TvT don't look that solid, his games against Taeja were close, and bomber defeated Taeja in the Ro8. And I would say Gumiho and Yoda are as good TvT'er as bomber, so I wouldn't be surprised at all to fall to a terran ( or at least less surprised than if he lost to a zerg  )
To be honest, TaeJa looked abyssmal. BoguS brought scvs and in my opinion showed lack of confidence in TvT, why I cannot understand. His game against Flash was amazing. He's capable of showing good multitasking and overall macro. I don't think he is planning to show his strategies or overall behaviour in any match up right now.
TaeJa lost the game when he was in a defensive position with 7(?) vs 3 tanks and stim+combat shields vs no stim. His macro was slipping and his positioning was bad. He seriously wasn't on top of his game or he would have crushed the attack of BoguS.
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His games against Flash weren't that amazing. Do the recap, game one Innovation died to Flash because of his own denial to build turrets and deffend the dropbats on a very embarassing way that he couldn't adapt at all. Second game was a build order win, and the third, while Innovation played well, and abused his multitask, Flash never built ravens/vikings to go with his mechforce and the map wasn't exactly favored for mech.
Good to see him crushing tho.
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On May 05 2013 17:25 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 17:20 UnKooL wrote:
Is anybody currently on Innovation's level? I think the closest would be Rain or Parting, but even they don't seem as dominant as innovation. If widow mines didn't exist Life could compete with Innovation for sure.
if sc2 didn't exist, flash would still be the God.
we can do this whole day.
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United States1425 Posts
On May 06 2013 17:39 Godwrath wrote:
His games against Flash weren't that amazing. Do the recap, game one Innovation died to Flash because of his own denial to build turrets and deffend the dropbats on a very embarassing way that he couldn't adapt at all. Second game was a build order win, and the third, while Innovation played well, and abused his multitask, Flash never built ravens/vikings to go with his mechforce and the map wasn't exactly favored for mech.
Good to see him crushing tho.
No. He lost game 1 due to a build order loss. He won game 2 due to a build order win. He won game 3 with some of the best multitasking I've ever seen, and perfect defense vs hellbat drops. Don't try to downplay how fucking insanely well he played.
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On May 06 2013 23:42 TimENT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 17:39 Godwrath wrote:
His games against Flash weren't that amazing. Do the recap, game one Innovation died to Flash because of his own denial to build turrets and deffend the dropbats on a very embarassing way that he couldn't adapt at all. Second game was a build order win, and the third, while Innovation played well, and abused his multitask, Flash never built ravens/vikings to go with his mechforce and the map wasn't exactly favored for mech.
Good to see him crushing tho. No. He lost game 1 due to a build order loss. He won game 2 due to a build order win. He won game 3 with some of the best multitasking I've ever seen, and perfect defense vs hellbat drops. Don't try to downplay how fucking insanely well he played.
Huh ? He didn't lose game 1 due to a build order lol. Game 1 he lost because he took too damage of hellbats drops and never tried to defend them efficiently, losing shitload of scvs and was forced to try to be aggressive against a well fortified flash. And game 3 was awesome, but rewatch the game, you are overhyped by the group of death if you are telling me flash unit composition was not horrible and exploitable for the map and bio. It was definitly a series that could had gone either way and his performance in game 1 was shaky and game 2 was a build order win.
Innovation vs Life on the other hand... yeah, the kid the awesome, but we are speaking of TvT.
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Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc..
Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation.
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United States1425 Posts
On May 06 2013 23:47 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 23:42 TimENT wrote:On May 06 2013 17:39 Godwrath wrote:
His games against Flash weren't that amazing. Do the recap, game one Innovation died to Flash because of his own denial to build turrets and deffend the dropbats on a very embarassing way that he couldn't adapt at all. Second game was a build order win, and the third, while Innovation played well, and abused his multitask, Flash never built ravens/vikings to go with his mechforce and the map wasn't exactly favored for mech.
Good to see him crushing tho. No. He lost game 1 due to a build order loss. He won game 2 due to a build order win. He won game 3 with some of the best multitasking I've ever seen, and perfect defense vs hellbat drops. Don't try to downplay how fucking insanely well he played. Huh ? He didn't lose game 1 due to a build order lol. Game 1 he lost because he took too damage of hellbats drops and never tried to defend them efficiently, losing shitload of scvs and was forced to try to be aggressive against a well fortified flash. And game 3 was awesome, but rewatch the game, you are overhyped by the group of death if you are telling me flash unit composition was not horrible and exploitable for the map and bio. It was definitly a series that could had gone either way and his performance in game 1 was shaky and game 2 was a build order win. Innovation vs Life on the other hand... yeah, the kid the awesome, but we are speaking of TvT.
Huh? He did lose game 1 due to a BO loss lol. You need to watch the game again. He was actually so far behind after his 2 rax did nothing. Innovation had to cut massive corners (not building turrets) in order to catch up. Flash murdered him with drops because this was the corner Innovation had to cut. Also, Flash just murdered Reality with the same unit comp on the same map as game 3.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On May 06 2013 23:58 TimENT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 23:47 Godwrath wrote:On May 06 2013 23:42 TimENT wrote:On May 06 2013 17:39 Godwrath wrote:
His games against Flash weren't that amazing. Do the recap, game one Innovation died to Flash because of his own denial to build turrets and deffend the dropbats on a very embarassing way that he couldn't adapt at all. Second game was a build order win, and the third, while Innovation played well, and abused his multitask, Flash never built ravens/vikings to go with his mechforce and the map wasn't exactly favored for mech.
Good to see him crushing tho. No. He lost game 1 due to a build order loss. He won game 2 due to a build order win. He won game 3 with some of the best multitasking I've ever seen, and perfect defense vs hellbat drops. Don't try to downplay how fucking insanely well he played. Huh ? He didn't lose game 1 due to a build order lol. Game 1 he lost because he took too damage of hellbats drops and never tried to defend them efficiently, losing shitload of scvs and was forced to try to be aggressive against a well fortified flash. And game 3 was awesome, but rewatch the game, you are overhyped by the group of death if you are telling me flash unit composition was not horrible and exploitable for the map and bio. It was definitly a series that could had gone either way and his performance in game 1 was shaky and game 2 was a build order win. Innovation vs Life on the other hand... yeah, the kid the awesome, but we are speaking of TvT. Huh? He did lose game 1 due to a BO loss lol. You need to watch the game again. He was actually so far behind after his 2 rax did nothing. Innovation had to cut massive corners (not building turrets) in order to catch up. Flash murdered him with drops because this was the corner Innovation had to cut. Also, Flash just murdered Reality with the same unit comp on the same map as game 3.
he evened it up though with his drop (a bit behind but not much). he could have taken it from that point had he played a bit better
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United States1425 Posts
On May 06 2013 23:59 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 23:58 TimENT wrote:On May 06 2013 23:47 Godwrath wrote:On May 06 2013 23:42 TimENT wrote:On May 06 2013 17:39 Godwrath wrote:
His games against Flash weren't that amazing. Do the recap, game one Innovation died to Flash because of his own denial to build turrets and deffend the dropbats on a very embarassing way that he couldn't adapt at all. Second game was a build order win, and the third, while Innovation played well, and abused his multitask, Flash never built ravens/vikings to go with his mechforce and the map wasn't exactly favored for mech.
Good to see him crushing tho. No. He lost game 1 due to a build order loss. He won game 2 due to a build order win. He won game 3 with some of the best multitasking I've ever seen, and perfect defense vs hellbat drops. Don't try to downplay how fucking insanely well he played. Huh ? He didn't lose game 1 due to a build order lol. Game 1 he lost because he took too damage of hellbats drops and never tried to defend them efficiently, losing shitload of scvs and was forced to try to be aggressive against a well fortified flash. And game 3 was awesome, but rewatch the game, you are overhyped by the group of death if you are telling me flash unit composition was not horrible and exploitable for the map and bio. It was definitly a series that could had gone either way and his performance in game 1 was shaky and game 2 was a build order win. Innovation vs Life on the other hand... yeah, the kid the awesome, but we are speaking of TvT. Huh? He did lose game 1 due to a BO loss lol. You need to watch the game again. He was actually so far behind after his 2 rax did nothing. Innovation had to cut massive corners (not building turrets) in order to catch up. Flash murdered him with drops because this was the corner Innovation had to cut. Also, Flash just murdered Reality with the same unit comp on the same map as game 3. he evened it up though with his drop (a bit behind but not much). he could have taken it from that point had he played a bit better
I guess I'm being a little bit biased because of my undying love for innovation :p
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I just watched the VODs.. Innovation is so good it makes it look like he's hacking. He gets Stimpack upgrade 18 minutes into the game. 18 MINUTES! How often do you see a guy get that crucial upgrade this late?! How often do you see someone get himself into a winning position already without getting that crucial upgrade?!
Got Marine-Tank defending your base? No problem. I got my 1-1 with no stimmed Marine-Tank.
That Reaper control in game 4...
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On May 06 2013 15:58 kubiks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 12:15 EpiK wrote:On May 06 2013 12:05 Bagration wrote:On May 05 2013 22:27 PhoenixVoid wrote:
Is INoVation even stoppable now? After seeing him dominate the group of death and all-kill EG-TL, I'm even more convinced he is a lock for the GSL finals, and likely the champion. That's what a lot of people said about Bomber 2 years ago. Innovation has been incredibly consistent these past few months (making the Ro4, then the Ro8, and now at least the Ro8 again in the GSL), but he'll have to win that championship to cement his legacy. I'd say soulkey and sos are the top contenders to stop innovation from winning this GSL. If they weren't in it, I'd for sure say he had the championship in the bag. His TvT don't look that solid, his games against Taeja were close, and bomber defeated Taeja in the Ro8. And I would say Gumiho and Yoda are as good TvT'er as bomber, so I wouldn't be surprised at all to fall to a terran ( or at least less surprised than if he lost to a zerg )
Gumiho's multi-tasking is good but his tvt is definitely not as consistent as Innovation's. His mechanics also looked sloppy at dreamhack.
Bomber's tvt is also pretty damn inconsistent. His win over taeja was a bo3 and Taeja's not doing so well currently so a victory over him doesn't really mean anything. And if bomber and innovation were to meet, it would probably be in the ro4. Considering bomber choked in situations with much less pressure, I wouldn't be surprised if he tilted hard against whoever he played.
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Hehe, this was a really good series for Innovation. So much better than anyone out there. He made it look like a practice session.
Also dat reaper micro!
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On May 06 2013 23:50 ZenithM wrote:
Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc..
Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation.
true, except we need Innovation to win 2 GSLs to prove himself and be even comparable to MVP. MKP/Taeja all did so great earlier last year too, however they were never ever close to MVP's prime level.
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On May 07 2013 16:54 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 23:50 ZenithM wrote:
Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc..
Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation. true, except we need Innovation to win 2 GSLs to prove himself and be even comparable to MVP. MKP/Taeja all did so great earlier last year too, however they were never ever close to MVP's prime level.
Innovation is better than Mvp at his prime looking from any objective standpoint. The GSLs that Mvp won had a really weak lineup compared the the one we have today in Code S. Of course if we go by pure number of tournament wins instead of looking at skill then yeah Mvp is better in terms of numbers.
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On May 07 2013 17:00 hangarninetysix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 16:54 tuho12345 wrote:On May 06 2013 23:50 ZenithM wrote:
Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc..
Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation. true, except we need Innovation to win 2 GSLs to prove himself and be even comparable to MVP. MKP/Taeja all did so great earlier last year too, however they were never ever close to MVP's prime level. Innovation is better than Mvp at his prime looking from any objective standpoint. The GSLs that Mvp won had a really weak lineup compared the the one we have today in Code S. Of course if we go by pure number of tournament wins instead of looking at skill then yeah Mvp is better in terms of numbers.
This. I don't know why people still refuse to accept that the early SC2 transitioners (mostly ESF players) which include MVP were BW B-teamers aka "dishwashers". These are the guys who didn't get to play televised games because they sucked, relatively.
The KeSPA benchmark is just generally higher. If MVP (sans whatever injury) played against Innovation/Soulkey today it will be like watching Agassi (in his prime) versus Djokovic.
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On May 07 2013 17:49 sinigang wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 17:00 hangarninetysix wrote:On May 07 2013 16:54 tuho12345 wrote:On May 06 2013 23:50 ZenithM wrote:
Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc..
Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation. true, except we need Innovation to win 2 GSLs to prove himself and be even comparable to MVP. MKP/Taeja all did so great earlier last year too, however they were never ever close to MVP's prime level. Innovation is better than Mvp at his prime looking from any objective standpoint. The GSLs that Mvp won had a really weak lineup compared the the one we have today in Code S. Of course if we go by pure number of tournament wins instead of looking at skill then yeah Mvp is better in terms of numbers. This. I don't know why people still refuse to accept that the early SC2 transitioners (mostly ESF players) which include MVP were BW B-teamers aka "dishwashers". These are the guys who didn't get to play televised games because they sucked, relatively. The KeSPA benchmark is just generally higher. If MVP (sans whatever injury) played against Innovation/Soulkey today it will be like watching Agassi (in his prime) versus Djokovic.
That's not an entirely fair comparison to make, because as the game evolves and players understand it better the overall skill a player from now has will be higher than the skill of a player who was considered that good back a few years ago.
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On May 06 2013 23:50 ZenithM wrote:
Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc..
Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation.
Mvp was still stronger back then in comparison. You are talking about a player that won everything he went into.
Has Innovation even won 1 tournament so far?
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On May 07 2013 17:00 hangarninetysix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 16:54 tuho12345 wrote:On May 06 2013 23:50 ZenithM wrote:
Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc..
Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation. true, except we need Innovation to win 2 GSLs to prove himself and be even comparable to MVP. MKP/Taeja all did so great earlier last year too, however they were never ever close to MVP's prime level. Innovation is better than Mvp at his prime looking from any objective standpoint. The GSLs that Mvp won had a really weak lineup compared the the one we have today in Code S. Of course if we go by pure number of tournament wins instead of looking at skill then yeah Mvp is better in terms of numbers.
That is not fair and you know it. You should look at the state of the game back then , not compare to the one now.
In his prime Mvp was better when looking at the overall skill back then, he won so much it was silly. If you compare the skill of the players back then to now basically everything done before is useless.
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On May 07 2013 19:29 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 23:50 ZenithM wrote:
Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc..
Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation. Mvp was still stronger back then in comparison. You are talking about a player that won everything he went into. Has Innovation even won 1 tournament so far?
The scene was way less competitive back then. At least half the best RTS talent was still playing another game.
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On May 07 2013 19:29 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 23:50 ZenithM wrote:
Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc..
Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation. Mvp was still stronger back then in comparison. You are talking about a player that won everything he went into. Has Innovation even won 1 tournament so far?
HuK won MLG, Innovation hasn't won a tournament. HuK > Innovation.
When we actually look at the strength of the opponents they are playing, it soon becomes clear tournament wins are irrelevant when playing different calibers of players.
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EPT
