On May 05 2013 10:26 YourHarry wrote: innovation is prob not that good in tvp. i expect a protoss player like jyp if HerO loses.
Also 1235 fantasy teams own innovation. That's more than 50% of teams... i hope he loses
What are you talking about? Innovation is not good at tvp? With no proof?? Even he beated parting a week ago?? Please dont say without proof
Innovation beat Flash and Life to get out of that group. Aligulac does say that his weakest matchup is vP. I agree, however, that it is good enough to beat any P if he's on his game.
On May 05 2013 11:36 intmastad wrote: No snte or idra come to proleague?
Snute is now on the roster but whether he plays or not will be up to Coach Park. IdrA has already stated that he does not plan on going to Korea any time soon.
His win rate is less than 30%. Of course, this has to be taken with grain of salt because he seems to have improved a lot recently. And the TLPD doesn't have the latest games (for some reason). But:
In round 4 of SPL, he did play against protoss once and he won that game (against Parting) (1-0) In round 3, he lost the only protoss game against Aria (0-1) Games from earlier rounds are included in the TLPD, where: In round 2, he went 1-2 against protoss, losing to Jyp and Wooki. In round 1, he went 1-1.
So overall, he doesn't have too many games against protoss. But in HOTS SPL, his record is 3-4. In current GSL, he lost to rain 1-2 in the round of 32 (which are his only games against toss in GSL)
So he doesn't seem to be as good against protoss as he is against zerg (or even terran).
His win rate is less than 30%. Of course, this has to be taken with grain of salt because he seems to have improved a lot recently. And the TLPD doesn't have the latest games (for some reason). But:
In round 4 of SPL, he did play against protoss once and he won that game (against Parting) (1-0) In round 3, he lost the only protoss game against Aria (0-1) Games from earlier rounds are included in the TLPD, where: In round 2, he went 1-2 against protoss, losing to Jyp and Wooki. In round 1, he went 1-1.
So overall, he doesn't have too many games against protoss. But in HOTS SPL, his record is 3-4. In current GSL, he lost to rain 1-2 in the round of 32 (which are his only games against toss in GSL)
So he doesn't seem to be as good against protoss as he is against zerg (or even terran).
All matches Innovation played against Protoss in Heart of the Swarm.
It's his second best match up. His TvZ is at 89% (wtffff), TvP at 64% and TvT at 54%.
Hmm. I forgot first 3 rounds of SPL were WoL. I stand corrected then. HOTS is a different game especially considering how one of Innovation's major strength is his usage of medavic boost. His TvP based on his record seems pretty legit, even disregarding his 3-0 win against Huk to inflate his 64% win rate.
Edit: His TvT record at 54% is pretty mediocre but I guess this can be misleading since his losses come from top tier players like Flash and Taeja.
Innovation is amazing but I just have a feeling he won't all-kill. He seems to play very straight-up and is rock solid, especially against standard play. HerO hopefully has something planned for him
On May 05 2013 13:59 Wombat_NI wrote: Innovation is amazing but I just have a feeling he won't all-kill. He seems to play very straight-up and is rock solid, especially against standard play. HerO hopefully has something planned for him
In a few games he's not afraid to throw a bit of cheese/aggression, like vs Flash. That being said, he doesn't really need to cheese to beat EGTL.
On May 05 2013 14:49 pieisamazing wrote: well, they moved it back. was supposed to start awhile ago. thought they were overlapping but i didnt see an alternate stream
Proleague is always one match at a time and usually the first match of the day drags them behind schedule.
Hero definitely has the ability to take down Innovation. I'd say they're probably very similar in skill level, although I still give the edge to Innovation. Could very likely be match of the night up first.
On May 05 2013 15:20 MadProbe wrote: do you guys think hero's planning for a macro game or is he gonna allin cuz innovation is such a beast?
Protoss has such a wide variety of all-ins especially in PvT. Hell there was even a 20 page thread earlier today about early-mid game TvP complaints. So I do hope that Hero does some kinda of all-in.
So I have a question does anyone know how many more losses EGTL can take before they have a 0% chance of making playoffs? I know it's unlikely as it is now, but I am curious how many more matches they have to lose to make it absolutely 0%.
On May 05 2013 15:27 blade55555 wrote: So I have a question does anyone know how many more losses EGTL can take before they have a 0% chance of making playoffs? I know it's unlikely as it is now, but I am curious how many more matches they have to lose to make it absolutely 0%.
On May 05 2013 15:38 nmetasch wrote: Why are egtl builds always so awful and gambly... Its like egtl just wants to lose... if they just played straight up theyd do so much better..
There's a window of a lot more than a minute where he won't even have the armor upgrade to terran +1 attack, and it's medivac vs gateway before blink or charge is up, no templar, no robo or other units, terran far ahead in economy and pretty much every way
On May 04 2013 17:38 opterown wrote: requesting two day ban, i'm too pissed to coherently post and i don't want to burn any bridges if i get out of hand, thanks
Hey now that opterown has exiled himself for the day, who wants to take over this OP so the results can be updated? Just need someone who is around and can fill in the players and who won.
On May 05 2013 15:43 heyoka wrote: Hey now that opterown has exiled himself for the day, who wants to take over this OP so the results can be updated? Just need someone who is around and can fill in the players and who won.
On May 05 2013 15:43 heyoka wrote: Hey now that opterown has exiled himself for the day, who wants to take over this OP so the results can be updated? Just need someone who is around and can fill in the players and who won.
On May 05 2013 15:43 heyoka wrote: Hey now that opterown has exiled himself for the day, who wants to take over this OP so the results can be updated? Just need someone who is around and can fill in the players and who won.
NovemberstOrm is the winner by virtue of posting first and being a name I recognize! He will carry on the great opterown's work as though it was his own child.
On May 05 2013 15:43 heyoka wrote: Hey now that opterown has exiled himself for the day, who wants to take over this OP so the results can be updated? Just need someone who is around and can fill in the players and who won.
i wonder how TL mods give editing rights to posts :p guessing your teamliquid looks a lot different than ours with all these cool powerful buttons beside posts and users
On May 05 2013 15:47 heyoka wrote: NovemberstOrm is the winner by virtue of posting first and being a name I recognize! He will carry on the great opterown's work as though it was his own child.
On May 05 2013 15:43 heyoka wrote: Hey now that opterown has exiled himself for the day, who wants to take over this OP so the results can be updated? Just need someone who is around and can fill in the players and who won.
i wonder how TL mods give editing rights to posts :p guessing your teamliquid looks a lot different than ours with all these cool powerful buttons beside posts and users
It's pretty boring it's just an admin panel that has a field for post id and one for username. It doesn't even have cool buttons or colors.
Anyway I once saw Innovation try to trick Wax into thinking he didn't speak English so I hope someone beats him.
On May 05 2013 15:43 heyoka wrote: Hey now that opterown has exiled himself for the day, who wants to take over this OP so the results can be updated? Just need someone who is around and can fill in the players and who won.
i wonder how TL mods give editing rights to posts :p guessing your teamliquid looks a lot different than ours with all these cool powerful buttons beside posts and users
It's pretty boring it's just an admin panel that has a field for post id and one for username. It doesn't even have cool buttons or colors.
On May 05 2013 15:43 heyoka wrote: Hey now that opterown has exiled himself for the day, who wants to take over this OP so the results can be updated? Just need someone who is around and can fill in the players and who won.
i wonder how TL mods give editing rights to posts :p guessing your teamliquid looks a lot different than ours with all these cool powerful buttons beside posts and users
It's pretty boring it's just an admin panel that has a field for post id and one for username. It doesn't even have cool buttons or colors.
Anyway I once saw Innovation try to trick Wax into thinking he didn't speak English so I hope someone beats him.
All day I stare at this giant yellow bar that screams at me "X Number Pending Events" 24/7!!! Everyone just has to be on the damn calender don't they!
On May 05 2013 15:54 PVJ wrote: am I mistaken or does it seem to others too that the crowd's getting bigger and bigger by week?
I do believe PL has been doing better. It's because Bisu played.
Right? I think it's like Korean people are starting to realise that this thing is still going on. I'm gonna ask around next weekend or so.
It's mainly cause Koreans don't play that much SC2 relative to free LoL/MMO/phone games. It's hard to get passionate about a game you've never played. Numbers were pretty bad yesterday, probably just decent because it's a Sunday.
On May 05 2013 15:54 PVJ wrote: am I mistaken or does it seem to others too that the crowd's getting bigger and bigger by week?
I do believe PL has been doing better. It's because Bisu played.
Right? I think it's like Korean people are starting to realise that this thing is still going on. I'm gonna ask around next weekend or so.
It's mainly cause Koreans don't play that much SC2 relative to free LoL/MMO/phone games. It's hard to get passionate about a game you've never played. Numbers were pretty bad yesterday, probably just decent because it's a Sunday.
On May 05 2013 15:54 PVJ wrote: am I mistaken or does it seem to others too that the crowd's getting bigger and bigger by week?
I do believe PL has been doing better. It's because Bisu played.
Right? I think it's like Korean people are starting to realise that this thing is still going on. I'm gonna ask around next weekend or so.
It's mainly cause Koreans don't play that much SC2 relative to free LoL/MMO/phone games. It's hard to get passionate about a game you've never played. Numbers were pretty bad yesterday, probably just decent because it's a Sunday.
Koreans becoming dirty casuals??
Well the vast majority of BW fans were always team-game/custom map casuals. It was free, easily playable and had an easy to use custom map system. Now with SC2 they've lost a lot of the grass roots players/fans that Brood War used to cultivate.
Btw, I just spilled a tiny bit of milk into my laptop keyboard (between shift and caps), what should I do?!? The laptop still seems to be working fine so far..
On May 05 2013 16:08 slowbacontron wrote: Btw, I just spilled a tiny bit of milk into my laptop keyboard (between shift and caps), what should I do?!? The laptop still seems to be working fine so far..
id just let it dry and dont press those keys until it does... but im no expert
On May 05 2013 15:54 PVJ wrote: am I mistaken or does it seem to others too that the crowd's getting bigger and bigger by week?
I do believe PL has been doing better. It's because Bisu played.
Right? I think it's like Korean people are starting to realise that this thing is still going on. I'm gonna ask around next weekend or so.
It's mainly cause Koreans don't play that much SC2 relative to free LoL/MMO/phone games. It's hard to get passionate about a game you've never played. Numbers were pretty bad yesterday, probably just decent because it's a Sunday.
Koreans becoming dirty casuals??
Well the vast majority of BW fans were always team-game/custom map casuals. It was free, easily playable and had an easy to use custom map system. Now with SC2 they've lost a lot of the grass roots players/fans that Brood War used to cultivate.
I see, interesting that they could get into the intricate strategies and nuances of pro BW even then!
Is it just me or did Taeja's macro slip? When his natural was completely overran at the end, he had 800 minerals stockpiled...enough for constant production from an extra rax.
On May 05 2013 15:54 PVJ wrote: am I mistaken or does it seem to others too that the crowd's getting bigger and bigger by week?
I do believe PL has been doing better. It's because Bisu played.
Right? I think it's like Korean people are starting to realise that this thing is still going on. I'm gonna ask around next weekend or so.
It's mainly cause Koreans don't play that much SC2 relative to free LoL/MMO/phone games. It's hard to get passionate about a game you've never played. Numbers were pretty bad yesterday, probably just decent because it's a Sunday.
Koreans becoming dirty casuals??
Well the vast majority of BW fans were always team-game/custom map casuals. It was free, easily playable and had an easy to use custom map system. Now with SC2 they've lost a lot of the grass roots players/fans that Brood War used to cultivate.
Last time I was at a bang tho ppl were "boycotting" lol because of all the server issues in the past month :D Played a few rounds of hunters.
Eh, Taeja was incredibly lucky that his third wasn't noticed. He should have been patient instead of wasting marines, his economy would eventually have given him the advantage.
On May 05 2013 16:08 slowbacontron wrote: Btw, I just spilled a tiny bit of milk into my laptop keyboard (between shift and caps), what should I do?!? The laptop still seems to be working fine so far..
Stick something absorbent like bread or toilet paper in the gaps to soak it up. That or use a vacuum cleaner/hair drier.
To be honest I found this game pretty hard to lose from TaeJa. Defenders advantage, 2 tanks at a time vs 1... stim. If he puts his tanks close together and buildings 2 vikings at a time, BoguS is not breaking it. Weak game by TaeJa imo
On May 05 2013 16:10 Sandster wrote: Is it just me or did Taeja's macro slip? When his natural was completely overran at the end, he had 800 minerals stockpiled...enough for constant production from an extra rax.
Taeja's macro has been pretty bad in all of his games recently. Even when he beat Innovation he never fell below 600 minerals.
In all honesty though, I think Jaedong certainly has a chance here. Bogus 2-0'd Life, but Life was arguably playing a level below his best (albeit it may have been forced by Bogus' godlike play). Plus, you can never write off the Dong.
With how badly Innovation is crushing through GSL, his recent results in proleague (nearly unbeaten), his revenge on TaeJa tonight, I think it's just about safe to say that Innovation is the best terran player on earth. Will this result in a big tournament win soon? I'm thinking so.
On May 05 2013 16:08 slowbacontron wrote: Btw, I just spilled a tiny bit of milk into my laptop keyboard (between shift and caps), what should I do?!? The laptop still seems to be working fine so far..
id just let it dry and dont press those keys until it does... but im no expert
Oops I pressed them over and over to see if they were still working XD doing everything wrong here. I figured since my laptop is super hot all the time (nothing I can do afaik) it'll dry the milk pretty quick.
Thanks to Scarecrow too! I tried some of that as well as I could but the gaps are very close, soaked up a minuscule amount.
On May 05 2013 16:16 Clefairy wrote: This round is going to be brutal for EG-TL. They're the only team without a super good ace player.
Since when did skt have a super good ace player? Rain has been less then solid in this format. And skt's historically greatest AK player never sees play time in winner's rounds.
On May 05 2013 16:13 Type|NarutO wrote: Why not aLive? BoguS doesn't really want to play TvT. Or Oz, as his weakest is TvP. I think Jaedong has something prepared
On May 05 2013 16:16 Clefairy wrote: This round is going to be brutal for EG-TL. They're the only team without a super good ace player.
Since when did skt have a super good ace player? Rain has been less then solid in this format. And skt's historically greatest AK player never sees play time in winner's rounds.
You don't see Oov/Boxer stepping out for SKT1 despite their historical greatness. Just accept Bisu's a has-been. Fantasy/Rain/Parting is still a scary lineup.
On May 05 2013 16:21 Evil_Sheep wrote: Don't count out JD, his ZvT is pretty good. Soulkey beat Innovation recently in PL, JD can too. Innovation isnt unbeatable.
JD is basically EG-TL's last hope tho.
Innovation 2-0 life in spectacular fashion not too long ago.... soulkey is like top 3 zerg right now. While i like JD i doubt he'd make top 5 zergs. Still rooting for the dong though.
On May 05 2013 16:23 Mohdoo wrote: I got home late. Anyone summarize the first 2 games?
Game 1: Hero tries 1gate expand into 4gate pressure. loses his MSC during a poke, gets his army run over when he attacks up bogus' ramp. bogus reads a book, makes some units, drops half his army in Hero's main and the other half in the natural and AFKs to victory.
Game 2: Both players go bio tank. Bogus skips stim in favor of extra reactors, pulls a handful of SCVs and sets up a soft contain outside Taeja's natural with the superior marine count and similar tank count. Taeja manages to sneak a third unseen, but the contain is eventually too much. Bogus wins after he finally gets stim and rolls Taeja over.
On May 05 2013 16:16 Clefairy wrote: This round is going to be brutal for EG-TL. They're the only team without a super good ace player.
Since when did skt have a super good ace player? Rain has been less then solid in this format. And skt's historically greatest AK player never sees play time in winner's rounds.
You don't see Oov/Boxer stepping out for SKT1 despite their historical greatness. Just accept Bisu's a has-been. Fantasy/Rain/Parting is still a scary lineup.
How is that a good comeback? Bisu is on the active roster lol.
edit: and show Oov some respect, he's in the service right now.
Sigh. I hope that egtl doesnt opt for another season of proleague, it just depresses me when they play -_-, they just arent good enough (or hard working enough, dunno)
On May 05 2013 16:35 nmetasch wrote: Sigh. I hope that egtl doesnt opt for another season of proleague, it just depresses me when they play -_-, they just arent good enough (or hard working enough, dunno)
Their roster has gotten a lot stronger over the course of this season. This season may have been a complete embarrassment, but give it another season or two and they might end up being a serious contender in proleague.
You know, this is getting me thinking. EGTL is doing horribly in the proleague, and I can't see them taking the commitment to stick around another year for a 2nd beating in PL. Similarly, in GSTL, Prime and NSH are in bad shape, both results-wise and stability-wise; I can see one or even both of those teams disbanding soon. Then, both GSTL and Proleague won't have enough teams to play out a season. What happens then? The Korean scene might implode.
On May 05 2013 16:16 Clefairy wrote: This round is going to be brutal for EG-TL. They're the only team without a super good ace player.
Since when did skt have a super good ace player? Rain has been less then solid in this format. And skt's historically greatest AK player never sees play time in winner's rounds.
You don't see Oov/Boxer stepping out for SKT1 despite their historical greatness. Just accept Bisu's a has-been. Fantasy/Rain/Parting is still a scary lineup.
How is that a good comeback? Bisu is on the active roster lol.
edit: and show Oov some respect, he's in the service right now.
On May 05 2013 16:37 casualman wrote: You know, this is getting me thinking. EGTL is doing horribly in the proleague, and I can't see them taking the commitment to stick around another year for a 2nd beating in PL. Similarly, in GSTL, Prime and NSH are in bad shape, both results-wise and stability-wise; I can see one or even both of those teams disbanding soon. Then, both GSTL and Proleague won't have enough teams to play out a season. What happens then? The Korean scene might implode.
Why won't they stay? They're very committed to proleague.
On May 05 2013 16:37 casualman wrote: You know, this is getting me thinking. EGTL is doing horribly in the proleague, and I can't see them taking the commitment to stick around another year for a 2nd beating in PL. Similarly, in GSTL, Prime and NSH are in bad shape, both results-wise and stability-wise; I can see one or even both of those teams disbanding soon. Then, both GSTL and Proleague won't have enough teams to play out a season. What happens then? The Korean scene might implode.
Why do people make out like EGTL have horrible players, they've made a few errors but Innovation is playing immaculately as well. It's fucking Bogus man!
On May 05 2013 16:35 nmetasch wrote: Sigh. I hope that egtl doesnt opt for another season of proleague, it just depresses me when they play -_-, they just arent good enough (or hard working enough, dunno)
Their roster has gotten a lot stronger over the course of this season. This season may have been a complete embarrassment, but give it another season or two and they might end up being a serious contender in proleague.
This was when they had to make a splash, they had way more sc2 experience than the rest of the field. They'll be the perennial air-force ace the way they're looking now.
On May 05 2013 16:16 Clefairy wrote: This round is going to be brutal for EG-TL. They're the only team without a super good ace player.
Since when did skt have a super good ace player? Rain has been less then solid in this format. And skt's historically greatest AK player never sees play time in winner's rounds.
You don't see Oov/Boxer stepping out for SKT1 despite their historical greatness. Just accept Bisu's a has-been. Fantasy/Rain/Parting is still a scary lineup.
How is that a good comeback? Bisu is on the active roster lol.
edit: and show Oov some respect, he's in the service right now.
plus oov injured his wrist
Plus if oov does decide to come back and play he'd all kill every match.
On May 05 2013 16:35 RogerChillingworth wrote: if you go for hive, you get overrun.
if you stay on ling/bane, you get overrun.
weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
I guess this is why Life and Leenock DIDNT just win the two largest HotS tournies to date, right?
Where innvoation was not/got eliminated in a TvT. And btw in mlg innovation rolled over leenock.
Anyway I just don't see how the hell EGTL thought they could have JD beat Innovation in a standard macro game. I don't know if terran is OP in TvZ, but if there's a player that gives this impression, it's innovation... Wheras TvT have always been a bit random, and Alive isn't known as a bad TvT'er...
They finally get 2 zergs that they need in JD/Snute with Taeja they could finally dump MKP, trade him to some team for a good backup Toss when Creator needs a break or they want to snipe.
On May 05 2013 16:35 nmetasch wrote: Sigh. I hope that egtl doesnt opt for another season of proleague, it just depresses me when they play -_-, they just arent good enough (or hard working enough, dunno)
Their roster has gotten a lot stronger over the course of this season. This season may have been a complete embarrassment, but give it another season or two and they might end up being a serious contender in proleague.
This was when they had to make a splash, they had way more sc2 experience than the rest of the field. They'll be the perennial air-force ace the way they're looking now.
I don't know about that. aLive, Oz, JYP, Jaedong (though he's going back to t8 at the end of this season, isn't he?) Taeja, HerO, and maybe even Snute, ThorZain, and HuK, can all improve a lot under the direction of Park/trOt, especially given a longer amount of time under his direction.
I'd really like to see them give it another chance, and if they bomb out so spectacularly again, THEN pack up and go home.
Don't pack up and go home, EGTL house if nothing else gives both team's rosters a great practice environment. They'll benefit in the individual leagues as well remember
On May 05 2013 16:38 bonedOUT wrote: Was innovation really good at bw? I looked up his liquipedia but it doesnt have much
A winrate above 50% having played more than a hundred games and active until the transformation to SC2 is probably to be considered as a good player. Probably not one of the best but definitely an A-Team player.
On May 05 2013 16:37 casualman wrote: You know, this is getting me thinking. EGTL is doing horribly in the proleague, and I can't see them taking the commitment to stick around another year for a 2nd beating in PL. Similarly, in GSTL, Prime and NSH are in bad shape, both results-wise and stability-wise; I can see one or even both of those teams disbanding soon. Then, both GSTL and Proleague won't have enough teams to play out a season. What happens then? The Korean scene might implode.
You know what would actually hype the fuck out of the Korean scene? GSTL and Proleague merge. Two divisions with 8 teams each for a total of 16 teams. 4 Kespa and 4 ESF in each division or worst case 3 Kespa and 3 ESF in each division for a total of 12 teams. A couple of days are broadcast from GOM studio and the others from Kespa, sort like what they do now with the big studio and small studio. An actual rivalry and teams trying to prove who truly is the best. Bragging rights! It would be amazing if only they could get this to work.
Absolutely loved his bunker placements on that shitty map tho - Middle of the map to prevent runbys, bunker at third in range to protect the depot walloff etc
On May 05 2013 16:35 RogerChillingworth wrote: if you go for hive, you get overrun.
if you stay on ling/bane, you get overrun.
weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
I guess this is why Life and Leenock DIDNT just win the two largest HotS tournies to date, right?
Where innvoation was not/got eliminated in a TvT. And btw in mlg innovation rolled over leenock.
Anyway I just don't see how the hell EGTL thought they could have JD beat Innovation in a standard macro game. I don't know if terran is OP in TvZ, but if there's a player that gives this impression, it's innovation... Wheras TvT have always been a bit random, and Alive isn't known as a bad TvT'er...
This isn't all that valid btw, as player-to-player results under minimal sample sizes are pretty meaningless; I meant only to stifle the ZvT QQ with the fact that Zergs currently command a huge portion of the winnings so far available in HotS.
It's like listening to IdrA whine about balance all day on the heels of Zergs currently winning every major tournament...
On May 05 2013 16:37 casualman wrote: You know, this is getting me thinking. EGTL is doing horribly in the proleague, and I can't see them taking the commitment to stick around another year for a 2nd beating in PL. Similarly, in GSTL, Prime and NSH are in bad shape, both results-wise and stability-wise; I can see one or even both of those teams disbanding soon. Then, both GSTL and Proleague won't have enough teams to play out a season. What happens then? The Korean scene might implode.
You know what would actually hype the fuck out of the Korean scene? GSTL and Proleague merge. Two divisions with 8 teams each for a total of 16 teams. 4 Kespa and 4 ESF in each division or worst case 3 Kespa and 3 ESF in each division for a total of 12 teams. A couple of days are broadcast from GOM studio and the others from Kespa, sort like what they do now with the big studio and small studio. An actual rivalry and teams trying to prove who truly is the best. Bragging rights! It would be amazing if only they could get this to work.
On May 05 2013 16:38 bonedOUT wrote: Was innovation really good at bw? I looked up his liquipedia but it doesnt have much
He was pretty good, on the upswing when BW ended. An average KeSPA pro back then had about a 50% winrate. Occasionally he beat top tier players such as Flash.
Record: 74 wins - 60 losses (55.22%)
Best Streak: 7 wins Worst Streak: 5 losses
Last 10 games: + 12-07-24 SKP12 Proleague S2 New Sniper Ridge Argo Loss + 12-07-22 SKP12 Proleague S2 New Sniper Ridge Snow Loss + 12-07-07 SKP12 Proleague S2 New Sniper Ridge Flash Win + 12-06-25 SKP12 Proleague S2 Neo Jade Reality Loss + 12-06-19 SKP12 Proleague S2 Neo Jade Savage Win + 12-06-09 SKP12 Proleague S2 Neo Electric Cir.. herO[jOin] Win + 12-06-05 tving OSL Gladiator Flash Loss + 12-05-30 tving OSL New Sniper Ridge Flash Win + 12-05-23 tving OSL Gladiator Action Loss + 12-05-15 tving OSL Neo Ground Zero JangBi Loss
Damn I just looked up INnoVation and after tonight's win over JD he's 11-1 in TvZ in HotS. That's a 91.7% win rate! Including a 2-0 over Life and 3-0 over Leenock. This guy isn't human, it's more like playing against Deep Blue right now.
Best Terran player in the world wins easily vs Jaedong. Terran op, that logic.... When Life beat everyone no one considered Zerg OP but Life outstanding. What about BoguS is an outstanding player? I don't see other Terrans winning easily and to be honest, I don't think its EASY what BoguS does
On May 05 2013 16:37 casualman wrote: You know, this is getting me thinking. EGTL is doing horribly in the proleague, and I can't see them taking the commitment to stick around another year for a 2nd beating in PL. Similarly, in GSTL, Prime and NSH are in bad shape, both results-wise and stability-wise; I can see one or even both of those teams disbanding soon. Then, both GSTL and Proleague won't have enough teams to play out a season. What happens then? The Korean scene might implode.
You know what would actually hype the fuck out of the Korean scene? GSTL and Proleague merge. Two divisions with 8 teams each for a total of 16 teams. 4 Kespa and 4 ESF in each division or worst case 3 Kespa and 3 ESF in each division for a total of 12 teams. A couple of days are broadcast from GOM studio and the others from Kespa, sort like what they do now with the big studio and small studio. An actual rivalry and teams trying to prove who truly is the best. Bragging rights! It would be amazing if only they could get this to work.
Naruto because Zergs bitch no matter the relative strength of their race
That said there might be issues, who knows. Innovation plays that matchup on another level to even the other very top tier Terrans so to me he's a bit of an outlier, as Life is for Zerg indeed
On May 05 2013 16:37 casualman wrote: You know, this is getting me thinking. EGTL is doing horribly in the proleague, and I can't see them taking the commitment to stick around another year for a 2nd beating in PL. Similarly, in GSTL, Prime and NSH are in bad shape, both results-wise and stability-wise; I can see one or even both of those teams disbanding soon. Then, both GSTL and Proleague won't have enough teams to play out a season. What happens then? The Korean scene might implode.
You know what would actually hype the fuck out of the Korean scene? GSTL and Proleague merge. Two divisions with 8 teams each for a total of 16 teams. 4 Kespa and 4 ESF in each division or worst case 3 Kespa and 3 ESF in each division for a total of 12 teams. A couple of days are broadcast from GOM studio and the others from Kespa, sort like what they do now with the big studio and small studio. An actual rivalry and teams trying to prove who truly is the best. Bragging rights! It would be amazing if only they could get this to work.
I am sure this is coming, only a matter of time. I think it will start with a match b/w the Proleague and GSTL champs. After that it might go towards something like you have in NA pro sports, Eastern Conference vs Western Conference.
On May 05 2013 16:47 Type|NarutO wrote: Best Terran player in the world wins easily vs Jaedong. Terran op, that logic.... When Life beat everyone no one considered Zerg OP but Life outstanding. What about BoguS is an outstanding player? I don't see other Terrans winning easily and to be honest, I don't think its EASY what BoguS does
On May 05 2013 16:48 Wombat_NI wrote: Naruto because Zergs bitch no matter the relative strength of their race
That said there might be issues, who knows. Innovation plays that matchup on another level to even the other very top tier Terrans so to me he's a bit of an outlier, as Life is for Zerg indeed
Bogus TvZ is the best in the world. Not even Flash come close to his TvZ.
Seeing how Bogus outplay Life convincely. Bogus is good man.
On May 05 2013 16:37 casualman wrote: You know, this is getting me thinking. EGTL is doing horribly in the proleague, and I can't see them taking the commitment to stick around another year for a 2nd beating in PL. Similarly, in GSTL, Prime and NSH are in bad shape, both results-wise and stability-wise; I can see one or even both of those teams disbanding soon. Then, both GSTL and Proleague won't have enough teams to play out a season. What happens then? The Korean scene might implode.
You know what would actually hype the fuck out of the Korean scene? GSTL and Proleague merge. Two divisions with 8 teams each for a total of 16 teams. 4 Kespa and 4 ESF in each division or worst case 3 Kespa and 3 ESF in each division for a total of 12 teams. A couple of days are broadcast from GOM studio and the others from Kespa, sort like what they do now with the big studio and small studio. An actual rivalry and teams trying to prove who truly is the best. Bragging rights! It would be amazing if only they could get this to work.
I can see the hype... only to prematurely drop into sadness because ESF teams and coaching would suck compared to KeSPA. Punching bags are nice to have once in a while though.
On May 05 2013 16:47 Type|NarutO wrote: Best Terran player in the world wins easily vs Jaedong. Terran op, that logic.... When Life beat everyone no one considered Zerg OP but Life outstanding. What about BoguS is an outstanding player? I don't see other Terrans winning easily and to be honest, I don't think its EASY what BoguS does
i think its because life is actually cute. wheras innovation is quite frankly just plain ugly.
On May 05 2013 16:37 casualman wrote: You know, this is getting me thinking. EGTL is doing horribly in the proleague, and I can't see them taking the commitment to stick around another year for a 2nd beating in PL. Similarly, in GSTL, Prime and NSH are in bad shape, both results-wise and stability-wise; I can see one or even both of those teams disbanding soon. Then, both GSTL and Proleague won't have enough teams to play out a season. What happens then? The Korean scene might implode.
You know what would actually hype the fuck out of the Korean scene? GSTL and Proleague merge. Two divisions with 8 teams each for a total of 16 teams. 4 Kespa and 4 ESF in each division or worst case 3 Kespa and 3 ESF in each division for a total of 12 teams. A couple of days are broadcast from GOM studio and the others from Kespa, sort like what they do now with the big studio and small studio. An actual rivalry and teams trying to prove who truly is the best. Bragging rights! It would be amazing if only they could get this to work.
I can see the hype... only to prematurely drop into sadness because ESF teams and coaching would suck compared to KeSPA. Punching bags are nice to have once in a while though.
ESF teams don't have enough infrastructure to compete sadly. Except for IM they just don't strike me as having deep enough rosters to really do well in this format, they would do fine if every round was allkill possibly.
On May 05 2013 16:38 bonedOUT wrote: Was innovation really good at bw? I looked up his liquipedia but it doesnt have much
He was pretty good, on the upswing when BW ended. An average KeSPA pro back then had about a 50% winrate. Occasionally he beat top tier players such as Flash.
Record: 74 wins - 60 losses (55.22%)
Best Streak: 7 wins Worst Streak: 5 losses
Last 10 games: + 12-07-24 SKP12 Proleague S2 New Sniper Ridge Argo Loss + 12-07-22 SKP12 Proleague S2 New Sniper Ridge Snow Loss + 12-07-07 SKP12 Proleague S2 New Sniper Ridge Flash Win + 12-06-25 SKP12 Proleague S2 Neo Jade Reality Loss + 12-06-19 SKP12 Proleague S2 Neo Jade Savage Win + 12-06-09 SKP12 Proleague S2 Neo Electric Cir.. herO[jOin] Win + 12-06-05 tving OSL Gladiator Flash Loss + 12-05-30 tving OSL New Sniper Ridge Flash Win + 12-05-23 tving OSL Gladiator Action Loss + 12-05-15 tving OSL Neo Ground Zero JangBi Loss
I don't think average A teamer will reach 50%, I would say average players are about 40% win rate, since more games are played by above average players.
On May 05 2013 16:47 Type|NarutO wrote: Best Terran player in the world wins easily vs Jaedong. Terran op, that logic.... When Life beat everyone no one considered Zerg OP but Life outstanding. What about BoguS is an outstanding player? I don't see other Terrans winning easily and to be honest, I don't think its EASY what BoguS does
i think its because life is actually cute. wheras innovation is quite frankly just plain ugly.
On May 05 2013 16:37 casualman wrote: You know, this is getting me thinking. EGTL is doing horribly in the proleague, and I can't see them taking the commitment to stick around another year for a 2nd beating in PL. Similarly, in GSTL, Prime and NSH are in bad shape, both results-wise and stability-wise; I can see one or even both of those teams disbanding soon. Then, both GSTL and Proleague won't have enough teams to play out a season. What happens then? The Korean scene might implode.
You know what would actually hype the fuck out of the Korean scene? GSTL and Proleague merge. Two divisions with 8 teams each for a total of 16 teams. 4 Kespa and 4 ESF in each division or worst case 3 Kespa and 3 ESF in each division for a total of 12 teams. A couple of days are broadcast from GOM studio and the others from Kespa, sort like what they do now with the big studio and small studio. An actual rivalry and teams trying to prove who truly is the best. Bragging rights! It would be amazing if only they could get this to work.
I can see the hype... only to prematurely drop into sadness because ESF teams and coaching would suck compared to KeSPA. Punching bags are nice to have once in a while though.
You can already imagine the number of forum bans in the LRs
On May 05 2013 16:47 Type|NarutO wrote: Best Terran player in the world wins easily vs Jaedong. Terran op, that logic.... When Life beat everyone no one considered Zerg OP but Life outstanding. What about BoguS is an outstanding player? I don't see other Terrans winning easily and to be honest, I don't think its EASY what BoguS does
i think its because life is actually cute. wheras innovation is quite frankly just plain ugly.
Life is pretty ugly too.
life is ugly?? oh so is brad pitt and justin beiber right?????
On May 05 2013 16:35 nmetasch wrote: Sigh. I hope that egtl doesnt opt for another season of proleague, it just depresses me when they play -_-, they just arent good enough (or hard working enough, dunno)
Their roster has gotten a lot stronger over the course of this season. This season may have been a complete embarrassment, but give it another season or two and they might end up being a serious contender in proleague.
Actually its the complete opposite. Kespa teams work harder and dedicate more to proleague, and thus, will widen the gap significantly...
On May 05 2013 16:56 Emzeeshady wrote: It isn't like nobody expected this. This should hardly come as a shock. The only player that had a chance was Taeja and although it was close he couldn't quite do it.
HerO had a chance as well, but botched it when he let his mothership core die
On May 05 2013 16:54 Vertical wrote: AAAWWWW YEAH BOGUS !!!
salt the wound !
SALT THE WOUND !!!!!
german terran player!
GERMAN TERRAN PLAYER!!!!!
Zerg please^^
lol is he? i'm sorry. i'm pretty sure i've never seen him play, just see him cast with Take and for some reason i assumed he was terran. maybe because i like him
On May 05 2013 16:56 Emzeeshady wrote: It isn't like nobody expected this. This should hardly come as a shock. The only player that had a chance was Taeja and although it was close he couldn't quite do it.
HerO had a chance as well, but botched it when he let his mothership core die
On May 05 2013 16:57 ThomasR wrote: JD joining EG really stunting his development into a better sc2 player
How is that? He was hardly tearing it up under Team8, and if anything EGTL at least have some good Protoss players that he can fix his legendary JvP over time
Feel so bad for Coach Park. I honestly believe he has no idea what to do anymore with these guys. EG-TL should've started in GSTL first and worked their way up.
On May 05 2013 16:57 ThomasR wrote: JD joining EG really stunting his development into a better sc2 player
How is that? He was hardly tearing it up under Team8, and if anything EGTL at least have some good Protoss players that he can fix his legendary JvP over time
JD just took third place at DH, being one stupid hatch first vs proxy gate game away from the finals. I'd say that some pretty good improvement.
On May 05 2013 16:57 ThomasR wrote: JD joining EG really stunting his development into a better sc2 player
How is that? He was hardly tearing it up under Team8, and if anything EGTL at least have some good Protoss players that he can fix his legendary JvP over time
JD just took third place at DH, being one stupid hatch first vs proxy gate game away from the finals. I'd say that some pretty good improvement.
I'm sure that will be disparaged because the tournament took place outside of Korea
On May 05 2013 17:00 Hrrrrm wrote: Feel so bad for Coach Park. I honestly believe he has no idea what to do anymore with these guys. EG-TL should've started in GSTL first and worked their way up.
The only answer is for coach park to enter the booth himself and carry EG-TL with his bare hands.
On May 05 2013 16:57 ThomasR wrote: JD joining EG really stunting his development into a better sc2 player
How is that? He was hardly tearing it up under Team8, and if anything EGTL at least have some good Protoss players that he can fix his legendary JvP over time
JD just took third place at DH, being one stupid hatch first vs proxy gate game away from the finals. I'd say that some pretty good improvement.
I'm sure that will be disparaged because the tournament took place outside of Korea
Even though he played other koreans, of course. Logic is no match for puerile e-hating, alas.
On May 05 2013 16:58 mrbamboo wrote: 1235 people have innovation on their FPL team, that's more than 50% of FPL teams,
8 points, man. what do you expect? probably should have been ten.
Yeah that's the cheapest #1 player I can remember seeing in FPL
TBLS hovering around 10 or above in BW all the time just made them so scary to pick up since you had next to no points but now you get bogus who for 8 points is the greatest steal in FPL history since you can have him rack up 5000 points and have a good backing team.
On May 05 2013 17:00 Hrrrrm wrote: Feel so bad for Coach Park. I honestly believe he has no idea what to do anymore with these guys. EG-TL should've started in GSTL first and worked their way up.
The only answer is for coach park to enter the booth himself and carry EG-TL with his bare hands.
It's also only been a relatively short amount of time. Big changes like he's been implementing take time to kick in.
Is there a Proleague "offseason"? I feel like this is what EG-TL needs, so they can really buckle down and practice hard without the stress of having to win for a while. It's no real different from any sports team who goes through a big coaching and system change, it doesn't get better after only a month or two.
On May 05 2013 16:57 ThomasR wrote: JD joining EG really stunting his development into a better sc2 player
How is that? He was hardly tearing it up under Team8, and if anything EGTL at least have some good Protoss players that he can fix his legendary JvP over time
JD just took third place at DH, being one stupid hatch first vs proxy gate game away from the finals. I'd say that some pretty good improvement.
I'm sure that will be disparaged because the tournament took place outside of Korea
Even though he played other koreans, of course. Logic is no match for puerile e-hating, alas.
As if the dreamhack Korean lineup was comparable to GSL or proleague.
innovation might Single handedly cause a round of terran nerfs.
The thing is, in the case of Mvp, he wasn't that dominant against other terrans (including Taeja and aLive) but he was versus zergs and to a lesser extent versus protoss, hence the nerf. For Innovation he looks too good against all, so it's harder to say the race is OP.
innovation might Single handedly cause a round of terran nerfs.
The thing is, in the case of Mvp, he wasn't that dominant against other terrans (including Taeja and aLive) but he was versus zergs and to a lesser extent versus protoss, hence the nerf. For Innovation he looks too good against all, so it's harder to say the race is OP.
Wait what? Mvp has historically had one of the best, if not the best TvT in WoL. He was thought to be nearly unstoppable in TvT during his prime where he had a crazy 14 game win streak of something.
innovation might Single handedly cause a round of terran nerfs.
The thing is, in the case of Mvp, he wasn't that dominant against other terrans (including Taeja and aLive) but he was versus zergs and to a lesser extent versus protoss, hence the nerf. For Innovation he looks too good against all, so it's harder to say the race is OP.
MVP was historically meant to be (relatively) weak vs Protoss and relied on his set preparation a lot against that race. Some of his early GSLs came in the most Terran-heavy periods as well so don't underestimate his chops in the mirror.
His use of ghosts got them nerfed sadly (I miss that sight), but that was a curious nerf tbh, it hadn't really caught on as play you would see all the time (i.e late WoL BL/Infestor) and was hard to transition to as well.
innovation might Single handedly cause a round of terran nerfs.
The thing is, in the case of Mvp, he wasn't that dominant against other terrans (including Taeja and aLive) but he was versus zergs and to a lesser extent versus protoss, hence the nerf. For Innovation he looks too good against all, so it's harder to say the race is OP.
That's not the case at all. He took people like Clide, Bomber, MKP, MMA, etc to town so very often during his best days. I'd say his rivalry was with Nestea, a zerg. But he was the favourite against every race. Only MMA had a good chance against him during MMA's very best period.
innovation might Single handedly cause a round of terran nerfs.
The thing is, in the case of Mvp, he wasn't that dominant against other terrans (including Taeja and aLive) but he was versus zergs and to a lesser extent versus protoss, hence the nerf. For Innovation he looks too good against all, so it's harder to say the race is OP.
innovation might Single handedly cause a round of terran nerfs.
The thing is, in the case of Mvp, he wasn't that dominant against other terrans (including Taeja and aLive) but he was versus zergs and to a lesser extent versus protoss, hence the nerf. For Innovation he looks too good against all, so it's harder to say the race is OP.
That's not the case at all. He took people like Clide, Bomber, MKP, MMA, etc to town so very often during his best days. I'd say his rivalry was with Nestea, a zerg. But he was the favourite against every race. Only MMA had a good chance against him during MMA's very best period.
I don't really remember MVP vs. Nestea being anything notable. Nestea was a bit of a moron in the one series that sticks out in my mind. I forget what tournament that was but it was the finals and people were confused about it for days.
On May 05 2013 17:15 Wombat_NI wrote: SIgh. Rather than credit Innovation for amazing play, let's just go drool on our keyboard and go EZTL as if we're witty.
Got to love relentless negativity
It's ez-tl because innovation is that good. Now everybody happy!
On May 05 2013 17:15 Wombat_NI wrote: SIgh. Rather than credit Innovation for amazing play, let's just go drool on our keyboard and go EZTL as if we're witty.
Got to love relentless negativity
It's ez-tl because innovation is that good. Now everybody happy!
That's more like it!
I hope that Innovation gets this current GSL. Something would feel off to me if he didn't win one soon!
sOs beat Innovation 2-1 in the Asian Indoor & Martial Arts Games Korean and is doing well in pro league/GSL, no reason he can't beat him again. Hopefully that's the GSL final.
On May 05 2013 17:20 McBengt wrote: With Flash and Life out of the way, the only player I see having a prayer against him is Parting, and even then I'd favour Innovation. Just too good.
Edit: GSL that is.
Soulkey is the only player who has beaten him on TLPD, and apparently his style might mesh well vs Innovation's? SoS is meant to be really good too, Roro maybe?
I don't know, GSL is so stacked I don't think it beyond the realms of possibility that anybody could beat him, but it'd be a bit sad as the 'best' player might not bring home the bacon this season. It's so clear Innovation is playing the best SC2 in the world at present, I hope he gets his just reward (or somebody else rises to that level)
On May 05 2013 16:56 mrtomjones wrote: Were any of the games close? I just tuned in..
Nah. Except that TvT against Taeja.
Bogus just straight up rolled over HerO,JD and Alive. EZ-TL.
To be fair not many players can take on Innovation these days. EGTL only has 1 Code S level player anyway and he is injured.
When did HerO get injured?
HerO isn't Code S level. WCS AM doesn't count lol
he is actually, the fact that horrible players like shine, hydra and a couple of others in code s confirms that Hero is a code s level because he is more of a individual league type of player where his strength is match preparation and mindgames. Did Hero do well in any team leagues before? i mean even in 2012 he wasnt so hot in team leagues was he? He still wrecked individual leagues making ro4, ro8 and staying in code s all year, winning DH winter, NASL, 3rd place at wcs asia, top 8 at BWC .
innovation might Single handedly cause a round of terran nerfs.
The thing is, in the case of Mvp, he wasn't that dominant against other terrans (including Taeja and aLive) but he was versus zergs and to a lesser extent versus protoss, hence the nerf. For Innovation he looks too good against all, so it's harder to say the race is OP.
That's not the case at all. He took people like Clide, Bomber, MKP, MMA, etc to town so very often during his best days. I'd say his rivalry was with Nestea, a zerg. But he was the favourite against every race. Only MMA had a good chance against him during MMA's very best period.
I don't really remember MVP vs. Nestea being anything notable. Nestea was a bit of a moron in the one series that sticks out in my mind. I forget what tournament that was but it was the finals and people were confused about it for days.
Wasn't that the series where nestea had a 10k/5k bank vs a barely maxed MVP and still lost the final game?
On May 05 2013 17:20 UnKooL wrote: Is anybody currently on Innovation's level? I think the closest would be Rain or Parting, but even they don't seem as dominant as innovation.
If widow mines didn't exist Life could compete with Innovation for sure.
Funny, since Life has already figured widow mines out, right?
Bogus is the strongest all round player ATM, and probably the best sc2 player to date, but sOs, parting and Flash (when he isn't going mech) will be able to take him head on 50-50. From what I've seen Soulkey will not last in a prepared Bo5, neither will Life.
In terms of micro, macro, multitask and strategy benchmarks, Bogus is better or equal to anyone else in history.
WHen Nestea and MVP were taking their early championships. I didn't say it 'had' to happen, just my personal preference. Feels wrong to me when somebody who is clearly the best player in a period has a bad day at the office and doesn't have the medal to prove it.
innovation might Single handedly cause a round of terran nerfs.
The thing is, in the case of Mvp, he wasn't that dominant against other terrans (including Taeja and aLive) but he was versus zergs and to a lesser extent versus protoss, hence the nerf. For Innovation he looks too good against all, so it's harder to say the race is OP.
That's not the case at all. He took people like Clide, Bomber, MKP, MMA, etc to town so very often during his best days. I'd say his rivalry was with Nestea, a zerg. But he was the favourite against every race. Only MMA had a good chance against him during MMA's very best period.
I don't really remember MVP vs. Nestea being anything notable. Nestea was a bit of a moron in the one series that sticks out in my mind. I forget what tournament that was but it was the finals and people were confused about it for days.
Wasn't that the series where nestea had a 10k/5k bank vs a barely maxed MVP and still lost the final game?
He's probably referring to Blizzcon 2011 where Nestea maxed on 27 brood lords with almost no anti-air and derped into a perfectly defended MVP. The game was good hype for casual viewers since it looked pretty epic (source: had a friend at Blizzcon that loves WoW. Figured he'd sit in on the starcraft games, lost his nut).
But that was only one of many series MVP and Nestea fought I believe. I at least remember GSL 2011 January had a semi final between the two which was MVP's only losses (in games) in that entire season.
innovation might Single handedly cause a round of terran nerfs.
The thing is, in the case of Mvp, he wasn't that dominant against other terrans (including Taeja and aLive) but he was versus zergs and to a lesser extent versus protoss, hence the nerf. For Innovation he looks too good against all, so it's harder to say the race is OP.
That's not the case at all. He took people like Clide, Bomber, MKP, MMA, etc to town so very often during his best days. I'd say his rivalry was with Nestea, a zerg. But he was the favourite against every race. Only MMA had a good chance against him during MMA's very best period.
I don't really remember MVP vs. Nestea being anything notable. Nestea was a bit of a moron in the one series that sticks out in my mind. I forget what tournament that was but it was the finals and people were confused about it for days.
Wasn't that the series where nestea had a 10k/5k bank vs a barely maxed MVP and still lost the final game?
On May 05 2013 17:20 UnKooL wrote: Is anybody currently on Innovation's level? I think the closest would be Rain or Parting, but even they don't seem as dominant as innovation.
If widow mines didn't exist Life could compete with Innovation for sure.
Funny, since Life has already figured widow mines out, right?
You can't figure out a 75/25 invisible unit that does devastating AOE and can be built two at a time -_-
Well, i'd say sacrificing a 25/0 .5 supply unit that can be built two at a time and then killing the 75/25 unit is pretty close to figuring it out
innovation might Single handedly cause a round of terran nerfs.
The thing is, in the case of Mvp, he wasn't that dominant against other terrans (including Taeja and aLive) but he was versus zergs and to a lesser extent versus protoss, hence the nerf. For Innovation he looks too good against all, so it's harder to say the race is OP.
That's not the case at all. He took people like Clide, Bomber, MKP, MMA, etc to town so very often during his best days. I'd say his rivalry was with Nestea, a zerg. But he was the favourite against every race. Only MMA had a good chance against him during MMA's very best period.
I don't really remember MVP vs. Nestea being anything notable. Nestea was a bit of a moron in the one series that sticks out in my mind. I forget what tournament that was but it was the finals and people were confused about it for days.
Wasn't that the series where nestea had a 10k/5k bank vs a barely maxed MVP and still lost the final game?
Ghost were really obnoxious back then. They could snipe the hell out of any Tier 3 units zerg could do. In conjonction with tanks, on a rather thight map (shakuras plateau), it's really hard to break a terran position. Nestea just boteched that a bit more than he should have. But Mvp wasn't the only one to have done that, and korean didn't do it too much because they prefered to just continue on marine/tank/drop because it was efficient enough. I still remember some europeans doing ghost/tank turtleuling, and managing to win agaisnt zegr having 3/4 of the map.... Ghost needed to be nerf, but they have been nerfed a little bit too much (the only real problem was they were sniping pretty much any high tech unit zerg could do...)
On May 05 2013 17:20 UnKooL wrote: Is anybody currently on Innovation's level? I think the closest would be Rain or Parting, but even they don't seem as dominant as innovation.
If widow mines didn't exist Life could compete with Innovation for sure.
Funny, since Life has already figured widow mines out, right?
You can't figure out a 75/25 invisible unit that does devastating AOE and can be built two at a time -_-
But I thought that's what people say that sets him apart from other zergs in terms of ZvT, and now he's not the best anymore because of widow mines.
innovation might Single handedly cause a round of terran nerfs.
The thing is, in the case of Mvp, he wasn't that dominant against other terrans (including Taeja and aLive) but he was versus zergs and to a lesser extent versus protoss, hence the nerf. For Innovation he looks too good against all, so it's harder to say the race is OP.
That's not the case at all. He took people like Clide, Bomber, MKP, MMA, etc to town so very often during his best days. I'd say his rivalry was with Nestea, a zerg. But he was the favourite against every race. Only MMA had a good chance against him during MMA's very best period.
I don't really remember MVP vs. Nestea being anything notable. Nestea was a bit of a moron in the one series that sticks out in my mind. I forget what tournament that was but it was the finals and people were confused about it for days.
Wasn't that the series where nestea had a 10k/5k bank vs a barely maxed MVP and still lost the final game?
He's probably referring to Blizzcon 2011 where Nestea maxed on 27 brood lords with almost no anti-air and derped into a perfectly defended MVP. The game was good hype for casual viewers since it looked pretty epic (source: had a friend at Blizzcon that loves WoW. Figured he'd sit in on the starcraft games, lost his nut).
But that was only one of many series MVP and Nestea fought I believe. I at least remember GSL 2011 January had a semi final between the two which was MVP's only losses (in games) in that entire season.
Ah okay, my memory isnt that good The only thing i rememmber was the huge bank Nestea has^^
I dont think people understand how good sOs is in here. He beat Innovation in a tournament very recently already (and beat Life in the finals). The GSL is definetely between sOs and Innovation
innovation might Single handedly cause a round of terran nerfs.
The thing is, in the case of Mvp, he wasn't that dominant against other terrans (including Taeja and aLive) but he was versus zergs and to a lesser extent versus protoss, hence the nerf. For Innovation he looks too good against all, so it's harder to say the race is OP.
That's not the case at all. He took people like Clide, Bomber, MKP, MMA, etc to town so very often during his best days. I'd say his rivalry was with Nestea, a zerg. But he was the favourite against every race. Only MMA had a good chance against him during MMA's very best period.
I don't really remember MVP vs. Nestea being anything notable. Nestea was a bit of a moron in the one series that sticks out in my mind. I forget what tournament that was but it was the finals and people were confused about it for days.
Wasn't that the series where nestea had a 10k/5k bank vs a barely maxed MVP and still lost the final game?
Ghost were really obnoxious back then. They could snipe the hell out of any Tier 3 units zerg could do. In conjonction with tanks, on a rather thight map (shakuras plateau), it's really hard to break a terran position. Nestea just boteched that a bit more than he should have. But Mvp wasn't the only one to have done that, and korean didn't do it too much because they prefered to just continue on marine/tank/drop because it was efficient enough. I still remember some europeans doing ghost/tank turtleuling, and managing to win agaisnt zegr having 3/4 of the map.... Ghost needed to be nerf, but they have been nerfed a little bit too much (the only real problem was they were sniping pretty much any high tech unit zerg could do...)
Ya, ghost snipe was a bit stupid. But now they cant even snipe Zerglings with 1 shot, which is probably as stupid as before <.<
On May 05 2013 17:20 UnKooL wrote: Is anybody currently on Innovation's level? I think the closest would be Rain or Parting, but even they don't seem as dominant as innovation.
If widow mines didn't exist Life could compete with Innovation for sure.
Funny, since Life has already figured widow mines out, right?
Sorry but Life just was on his off day. Bogus did outplayed him though.
On May 05 2013 17:20 UnKooL wrote: Is anybody currently on Innovation's level? I think the closest would be Rain or Parting, but even they don't seem as dominant as innovation.
If widow mines didn't exist Life could compete with Innovation for sure.
Funny, since Life has already figured widow mines out, right?
You can't figure out a 75/25 invisible unit that does devastating AOE and can be built two at a time -_-
But I thought that's what people say that sets him apart from other zergs in terms of ZvT, and now he's not the best anymore because of widow mines.
Whats sets him apart from other zergs is his greta micro/multi tasking and his super aggressive play style. Plus his don't give a fuck attitude. Hes like the Eminem of SC2.
Would be no surprise from you to say that if I assume your username is a tribute to Eminem. Is it? ^^
On May 05 2013 17:20 UnKooL wrote: Is anybody currently on Innovation's level? I think the closest would be Rain or Parting, but even they don't seem as dominant as innovation.
If widow mines didn't exist Life could compete with Innovation for sure.
Funny, since Life has already figured widow mines out, right?
Sorry but Life just was on his off day. Bogus did outplayed him though.
I know. All I want to say is that don't use Innovation vs Life to complain about mines.
Ahh now I feel nostalgic for the good old 2011 days where Nestea chased drops back and forth across shakuras plateau with his whole ling baneling army, July baneling busted any protoss who didn't respectfully build at least 3 cannons when forge expanding and there was a lovely cycle of Mvp >Polt> MMA which eventually came full circle when MMA started consistently beating Mvp. Also I miss sky terran, losira winning all the time despite losing his natural hatch to 2rax and PvP being the most rediculous thing ever.
On May 05 2013 17:36 TAMinator wrote: I dont think people understand how good sOs is in here. He beat Innovation in a tournament very recently already (and beat Life in the finals). The GSL is definetely between sOs and Innovation
Hes just the Protoss flavour of the month. The best Protoss player changes every couple of weeks. I think it is cause there is a lot more luck involved in Protoss matches.
ROFL are you serious? sOs has been dominating proleague the entire season and showing solid gsl results for months.
Speaking of which, it's still only a matter of time before KeSPa takes over. It was always the logical thing as they had the money, power and regime. Obviously it's not like a complete takeover immediately like the whole Elephant, but it was clear that it would happen slowly and eventually.
On May 05 2013 17:20 UnKooL wrote: Is anybody currently on Innovation's level? I think the closest would be Rain or Parting, but even they don't seem as dominant as innovation.
If widow mines didn't exist Life could compete with Innovation for sure.
Funny, since Life has already figured widow mines out, right?
You can't figure out a 75/25 invisible unit that does devastating AOE and can be built two at a time -_-
Well, i'd say sacrificing a 25/0 .5 supply unit that can be built two at a time and then killing the 75/25 unit is pretty close to figuring it out
In theory it sounds great but when there are 10+ widow mines and units killing the kings before you can set them off it doesn't work so well. Thats why we are seeing so many Zerg all ins. It is frightening to face widow mines in the mid game. I am hopeful that people will mess with Swarm hosts a bit as they work well vs widow mines but I am not sure if they are viable.
Problem is that before (WoL pre infestors/queen patches) ling/bling/mutas was balanced versus marine/tanks, and the mutas were really usefull, because they defended the drops, sniped the tanks (making it hard for a terran to hold a position for too long) and killed the medivacs. In Hots mutas are a bit better, but they don't really fullfill a role of "sniping mines". And it's hard to cut on the mutas, because with boost drops are really f***ing good. I hoped that life would "show me the way" to beat terran in the group of death, and he ended up getting absolutely crushed by Innovation. I don't mind innovation rolling good zerg left and right (I liked to see MMA play back in the day :p), but the games he plays are often not even close ...
On May 05 2013 17:20 UnKooL wrote: Is anybody currently on Innovation's level? I think the closest would be Rain or Parting, but even they don't seem as dominant as innovation.
If widow mines didn't exist Life could compete with Innovation for sure.
Funny, since Life has already figured widow mines out, right?
You can't figure out a 75/25 invisible unit that does devastating AOE and can be built two at a time -_-
Well, i'd say sacrificing a 25/0 .5 supply unit that can be built two at a time and then killing the 75/25 unit is pretty close to figuring it out
In theory it sounds great but when there are 10+ widow mines and units killing the kings before you can set them off it doesn't work so well. Thats why we are seeing so many Zerg all ins. It is frightening to face widow mines in the mid game. I am hopeful that people will mess with Swarm hosts a bit as they work well vs widow mines but I am not sure if they are viable.
~yadda~ I don't mind innovation rolling good zerg left and right (I liked to see MMA play back in the day :p), but the games he plays are often not even close ...
The games he plays aren't close no matter what race the opponent is ^_^
On May 05 2013 17:20 UnKooL wrote: Is anybody currently on Innovation's level? I think the closest would be Rain or Parting, but even they don't seem as dominant as innovation.
If widow mines didn't exist Life could compete with Innovation for sure.
Funny, since Life has already figured widow mines out, right?
You can't figure out a 75/25 invisible unit that does devastating AOE and can be built two at a time -_-
Well, i'd say sacrificing a 25/0 .5 supply unit that can be built two at a time and then killing the 75/25 unit is pretty close to figuring it out
In theory it sounds great but when there are 10+ widow mines and units killing the kings before you can set them off it doesn't work so well. Thats why we are seeing so many Zerg all ins. It is frightening to face widow mines in the mid game. I am hopeful that people will mess with Swarm hosts a bit as they work well vs widow mines but I am not sure if they are viable.
People already tried them out. Funny thing is Life build 2SH in both of games against Bogus in an attempt to set the mines off. But it failed horribly. Locusts just get sniped by MMM.
They aren't viable in ZvT unless T decides to go mech(which no one does because Bio+Mine are the best composition now).
On May 05 2013 17:20 UnKooL wrote: Is anybody currently on Innovation's level? I think the closest would be Rain or Parting, but even they don't seem as dominant as innovation.
If widow mines didn't exist Life could compete with Innovation for sure.
Funny, since Life has already figured widow mines out, right?
You can't figure out a 75/25 invisible unit that does devastating AOE and can be built two at a time -_-
Well, i'd say sacrificing a 25/0 .5 supply unit that can be built two at a time and then killing the 75/25 unit is pretty close to figuring it out
In theory it sounds great but when there are 10+ widow mines and units killing the kings before you can set them off it doesn't work so well. Thats why we are seeing so many Zerg all ins. It is frightening to face widow mines in the mid game. I am hopeful that people will mess with Swarm hosts a bit as they work well vs widow mines but I am not sure if they are viable.
~yadda~ I don't mind innovation rolling good zerg left and right (I liked to see MMA play back in the day :p), but the games he plays are often not even close ...
The games he plays aren't close no matter what race the opponent is ^_^
His games looks way closer agaisnt protoss or terran...(and today I think the 2 games he might have lost were the first 2)
On May 05 2013 17:20 UnKooL wrote: Is anybody currently on Innovation's level? I think the closest would be Rain or Parting, but even they don't seem as dominant as innovation.
If widow mines didn't exist Life could compete with Innovation for sure.
Funny, since Life has already figured widow mines out, right?
You can't figure out a 75/25 invisible unit that does devastating AOE and can be built two at a time -_-
Well, i'd say sacrificing a 25/0 .5 supply unit that can be built two at a time and then killing the 75/25 unit is pretty close to figuring it out
In theory it sounds great but when there are 10+ widow mines and units killing the kings before you can set them off it doesn't work so well. Thats why we are seeing so many Zerg all ins. It is frightening to face widow mines in the mid game. I am hopeful that people will mess with Swarm hosts a bit as they work well vs widow mines but I am not sure if they are viable.
People already tried them out. Funny thing is Life build 2SH in both of games against Bogus in an attempt to set the mines off. But it failed horribly. Locusts just get sniped by MMM.
They aren't viable in ZvT unless T decides to go mech(which no one does because Bio+Mine are the best composition now).
I know it's been said a few times already but just to put some numbers to it, Innovation (Bogus in BW) held a near 60% winrate in TvP and TvZ, and a TvT just a notch below 50%. He also had two back to back 3-kills in 2010 winners league, against CJ and KT, only to have his potential KT allkill stopped by Flash. He was evenly matched if not favoured against pretty much every Protoss except for maybe inform Stork and Best. His TvZ was kinda random but on a good day, he could matchup to the likes of Jaedong and Effort very convincingly. His TvT while not impressive was never bad to the point of a facepalm either, and he was clearly a developing player (especially in TvT) who would achieve even better results in a year or two.
His major weakness was individual leagues, be it nerves or wrong preparation, who knows (being on STX probably didn't help either), but he was a very good, A-tier pro who probably could have bloomed into a real S-class ace on a better team and with a bit more time. He is very similar to Soulkey in many ways, and its not at all surprising to see both of them do so well, even though neither was a big star in BW.
On May 05 2013 17:36 TAMinator wrote: I dont think people understand how good sOs is in here. He beat Innovation in a tournament very recently already (and beat Life in the finals). The GSL is definetely between sOs and Innovation
Hes just the Protoss flavour of the month. The best Protoss player changes every couple of weeks. I think it is cause there is a lot more luck involved in Protoss matches.
ROFL are you serious? sOs has been dominating proleague the entire season and showing solid gsl results for months.
Dont worry whiplash, emzeeshady has a tendency to make posts which are just wrong, but are not trolling, i think the right term here is, "he is trying to be edgy".
On May 05 2013 17:37 Wombat_NI wrote: Widowmines are obnoxious as hell. They've killed off marine/tank completely, which I really prefer to watch
Even without widow mines, tanks are just trash. You can use them to defend a greedy expo or allin, but that's usually about it. The maps are huge nowadays. So if you try to move out with tanks, zerg just fights you, reinforces faster and kills off all the tanks, if there are any remaining. Flanking is easy on almost every map now as well, in which case zerg just crushes even supply battles. I would say tanks are still playable on a map like Planet S, though.
On May 05 2013 17:37 Wombat_NI wrote: Widowmines are obnoxious as hell. They've killed off marine/tank completely, which I really prefer to watch
Even without widow mines, tanks are just trash. You can use them to defend a greedy expo or allin, but that's usually about it. The maps are huge nowadays. So if you try to move out with tanks, zerg just fights you, reinforces faster and kills off all the tanks, if there are any remaining. Flanking is easy on almost every map now as well, in which case zerg just crushes even supply battles. I would say tanks are still playable on a map like Planet S, though.
Yeah bigger and wider maps also play part in the tanks downfall, among other things. They are pretty much the Hydralisk equivalent in HotS.
Man, I remember before Major joined team 8... He used to go about how Innovation was the best terran in the world, better than flash. At the time I was just like meh.....
On May 05 2013 17:37 Wombat_NI wrote: Widowmines are obnoxious as hell. They've killed off marine/tank completely, which I really prefer to watch
Even without widow mines, tanks are just trash. You can use them to defend a greedy expo or allin, but that's usually about it. The maps are huge nowadays. So if you try to move out with tanks, zerg just fights you, reinforces faster and kills off all the tanks, if there are any remaining. Flanking is easy on almost every map now as well, in which case zerg just crushes even supply battles. I would say tanks are still playable on a map like Planet S, though.
2 supply 100 gas tanks would fix a lot of problems
Is INoVation even stoppable now? After seeing him dominate the group of death and all-kill EG-TL, I'm even more convinced he is a lock for the GSL finals, and likely the champion.
On May 05 2013 22:27 PhoenixVoid wrote: Is INoVation even stoppable now? After seeing him dominate the group of death and all-kill EG-TL, I'm even more convinced he is a lock for the GSL finals, and likely the champion.
sOs beat him in the AIG qualifiers 2-1. His PvT looks pretty good. That could be a good finals
On May 05 2013 17:37 Wombat_NI wrote: Widowmines are obnoxious as hell. They've killed off marine/tank completely, which I really prefer to watch
Even without widow mines, tanks are just trash. You can use them to defend a greedy expo or allin, but that's usually about it. The maps are huge nowadays. So if you try to move out with tanks, zerg just fights you, reinforces faster and kills off all the tanks, if there are any remaining. Flanking is easy on almost every map now as well, in which case zerg just crushes even supply battles. I would say tanks are still playable on a map like Planet S, though.
2 supply 100 gas tanks would fix a lot of problems
Nah that would be overpowered, unless you adjust their other stats too.
Just unnerf the damage, maybe even crank it up to 60 like it was in early beta. The 35 + 15 tank is balanced for WOL and Steppes of War type of maps, its simply too weak in HOTS.
On May 05 2013 22:27 PhoenixVoid wrote: Is INoVation even stoppable now? After seeing him dominate the group of death and all-kill EG-TL, I'm even more convinced he is a lock for the GSL finals, and likely the champion.
sOs beat him in the AIG qualifiers 2-1. His PvT looks pretty good. That could be a good finals
INoVation's TvP is a flaw he needs to be careful about, but the lack of Protosses in the Ro8 should work out well for him. I think INoVation could beat PartinG if he practices extensively, but sOs and potentially Flying are people he should look out for. Nothing hard work and teammates can't beat though.
On May 05 2013 17:37 Wombat_NI wrote: Widowmines are obnoxious as hell. They've killed off marine/tank completely, which I really prefer to watch
Even without widow mines, tanks are just trash. You can use them to defend a greedy expo or allin, but that's usually about it. The maps are huge nowadays. So if you try to move out with tanks, zerg just fights you, reinforces faster and kills off all the tanks, if there are any remaining. Flanking is easy on almost every map now as well, in which case zerg just crushes even supply battles. I would say tanks are still playable on a map like Planet S, though.
2 supply 100 gas tanks would fix a lot of problems
Nah that would be overpowered, unless you adjust their other stats too.
Just unnerf the damage, maybe even crank it up to 60 like it was in early beta. The 35 + 15 tank is balanced for WOL and Steppes of War type of maps, its simply too weak in HOTS.
just took a quick look at the recomendations and judging by them all the games were mediocre. I find that hard to believe but is it true? My internet takes ages to load the vods so i dont want to waste my time ^^
On May 05 2013 23:46 Fjodorov wrote: just took a quick look at the recomendations and judging by them all the games were mediocre. I find that hard to believe but is it true? My internet takes ages to load the vods so i dont want to waste my time ^^
On May 05 2013 23:46 Fjodorov wrote: just took a quick look at the recomendations and judging by them all the games were mediocre. I find that hard to believe but is it true? My internet takes ages to load the vods so i dont want to waste my time ^^
On May 06 2013 00:55 Holdenintherye wrote: I wake up to find that it ended as an all kill as I predicted... Don't even know if I should be surprised by EGTL's performance anymore
I'm not sure that's fair, Innovation is just really, really strong right now.
On May 05 2013 23:46 Fjodorov wrote: just took a quick look at the recomendations and judging by them all the games were mediocre. I find that hard to believe but is it true? My internet takes ages to load the vods so i dont want to waste my time ^^
The game 3 was amazing
i just watched it - Innovation played really well, it was basically a slaughterfest
Eh EG had their chances to beat him. Hero if he didnt lose the core might have got him with his attack, and taeja nearly won that fight too. A couple chances for EG that just went for innovation and the other games were not even really close. No one on EG can really consistently beat someone as good as innovation. Sometimes sure, but overall my money is on innovation or another player that consistently good.
On May 05 2013 17:37 Wombat_NI wrote: Widowmines are obnoxious as hell. They've killed off marine/tank completely, which I really prefer to watch
Even without widow mines, tanks are just trash. You can use them to defend a greedy expo or allin, but that's usually about it. The maps are huge nowadays. So if you try to move out with tanks, zerg just fights you, reinforces faster and kills off all the tanks, if there are any remaining. Flanking is easy on almost every map now as well, in which case zerg just crushes even supply battles. I would say tanks are still playable on a map like Planet S, though.
2 supply 100 gas tanks would fix a lot of problems
Nah that would be overpowered, unless you adjust their other stats too.
Just unnerf the damage, maybe even crank it up to 60 like it was in early beta. The 35 + 15 tank is balanced for WOL and Steppes of War type of maps, its simply too weak in HOTS.
id rather have 2 supply for better map control.
Problem of 2 supply is that it makes it way too powerfull. Compare with non-caster (AoE spells dps don't stack) units that cost 2 supply and you will realise how stupid it sounds (roaches/zealots/stalker/hydra/marauders/hellion), moreover considering it's an unit that scales up well with numbers...
On May 05 2013 17:04 Schelim wrote: so are there regular posters that don't have Innovation on their FPL team?
I don't, but it's because I figured everyone else would (and I was right). Not that I want him to do poorly, STX is my favorite team, but if you're gonna win FPL sometimes you gotta go against the grain.
Man, it was pretty frustrating watching set 2. I don't understand why Taeja decided to attack innov's contain ~10 minutes in with just marines and leave his tanks behind. He probably wouldn't have broken the contain if he brought tanks but he would've at least had a better exchange of units. Impatience lost him that game.
On May 06 2013 01:51 kafkaesque wrote: Mind giving a link? I always have a hart time finding anything at twitch.
On May 06 2013 10:51 EpiK wrote: Man, it was pretty frustrating watching set 2. I don't understand why Taeja decided to attack innov's contain ~10 minutes in with just marines and leave his tanks behind. He probably wouldn't have broken the contain if he brought tanks but he would've at least had a better exchange of units. Impatience lost him that game.
On May 05 2013 22:27 PhoenixVoid wrote: Is INoVation even stoppable now? After seeing him dominate the group of death and all-kill EG-TL, I'm even more convinced he is a lock for the GSL finals, and likely the champion.
That's what a lot of people said about Bomber 2 years ago. Innovation has been incredibly consistent these past few months (making the Ro4, then the Ro8, and now at least the Ro8 again in the GSL), but he'll have to win that championship to cement his legacy.
On May 05 2013 22:27 PhoenixVoid wrote: Is INoVation even stoppable now? After seeing him dominate the group of death and all-kill EG-TL, I'm even more convinced he is a lock for the GSL finals, and likely the champion.
That's what a lot of people said about Bomber 2 years ago. Innovation has been incredibly consistent these past few months (making the Ro4, then the Ro8, and now at least the Ro8 again in the GSL), but he'll have to win that championship to cement his legacy.
I'd say soulkey and sos are the top contenders to stop innovation from winning this GSL. If they weren't in it, I'd for sure say he had the championship in the bag.
On May 05 2013 22:27 PhoenixVoid wrote: Is INoVation even stoppable now? After seeing him dominate the group of death and all-kill EG-TL, I'm even more convinced he is a lock for the GSL finals, and likely the champion.
That's what a lot of people said about Bomber 2 years ago. Innovation has been incredibly consistent these past few months (making the Ro4, then the Ro8, and now at least the Ro8 again in the GSL), but he'll have to win that championship to cement his legacy.
I'd say soulkey and sos are the top contenders to stop innovation from winning this GSL. If they weren't in it, I'd for sure say he had the championship in the bag.
His TvT don't look that solid, his games against Taeja were close, and bomber defeated Taeja in the Ro8. And I would say Gumiho and Yoda are as good TvT'er as bomber, so I wouldn't be surprised at all to fall to a terran ( or at least less surprised than if he lost to a zerg )
On May 05 2013 22:27 PhoenixVoid wrote: Is INoVation even stoppable now? After seeing him dominate the group of death and all-kill EG-TL, I'm even more convinced he is a lock for the GSL finals, and likely the champion.
That's what a lot of people said about Bomber 2 years ago. Innovation has been incredibly consistent these past few months (making the Ro4, then the Ro8, and now at least the Ro8 again in the GSL), but he'll have to win that championship to cement his legacy.
I'd say soulkey and sos are the top contenders to stop innovation from winning this GSL. If they weren't in it, I'd for sure say he had the championship in the bag.
His TvT don't look that solid, his games against Taeja were close, and bomber defeated Taeja in the Ro8. And I would say Gumiho and Yoda are as good TvT'er as bomber, so I wouldn't be surprised at all to fall to a terran ( or at least less surprised than if he lost to a zerg )
To be honest, TaeJa looked abyssmal. BoguS brought scvs and in my opinion showed lack of confidence in TvT, why I cannot understand. His game against Flash was amazing. He's capable of showing good multitasking and overall macro. I don't think he is planning to show his strategies or overall behaviour in any match up right now.
TaeJa lost the game when he was in a defensive position with 7(?) vs 3 tanks and stim+combat shields vs no stim. His macro was slipping and his positioning was bad. He seriously wasn't on top of his game or he would have crushed the attack of BoguS.
His games against Flash weren't that amazing. Do the recap, game one Innovation died to Flash because of his own denial to build turrets and deffend the dropbats on a very embarassing way that he couldn't adapt at all. Second game was a build order win, and the third, while Innovation played well, and abused his multitask, Flash never built ravens/vikings to go with his mechforce and the map wasn't exactly favored for mech.
On May 05 2013 17:20 UnKooL wrote: Is anybody currently on Innovation's level? I think the closest would be Rain or Parting, but even they don't seem as dominant as innovation.
If widow mines didn't exist Life could compete with Innovation for sure.
if sc2 didn't exist, flash would still be the God.
On May 06 2013 17:39 Godwrath wrote: His games against Flash weren't that amazing. Do the recap, game one Innovation died to Flash because of his own denial to build turrets and deffend the dropbats on a very embarassing way that he couldn't adapt at all. Second game was a build order win, and the third, while Innovation played well, and abused his multitask, Flash never built ravens/vikings to go with his mechforce and the map wasn't exactly favored for mech.
Good to see him crushing tho.
No. He lost game 1 due to a build order loss. He won game 2 due to a build order win. He won game 3 with some of the best multitasking I've ever seen, and perfect defense vs hellbat drops. Don't try to downplay how fucking insanely well he played.
On May 06 2013 17:39 Godwrath wrote: His games against Flash weren't that amazing. Do the recap, game one Innovation died to Flash because of his own denial to build turrets and deffend the dropbats on a very embarassing way that he couldn't adapt at all. Second game was a build order win, and the third, while Innovation played well, and abused his multitask, Flash never built ravens/vikings to go with his mechforce and the map wasn't exactly favored for mech.
Good to see him crushing tho.
No. He lost game 1 due to a build order loss. He won game 2 due to a build order win. He won game 3 with some of the best multitasking I've ever seen, and perfect defense vs hellbat drops. Don't try to downplay how fucking insanely well he played.
Huh ? He didn't lose game 1 due to a build order lol. Game 1 he lost because he took too damage of hellbats drops and never tried to defend them efficiently, losing shitload of scvs and was forced to try to be aggressive against a well fortified flash. And game 3 was awesome, but rewatch the game, you are overhyped by the group of death if you are telling me flash unit composition was not horrible and exploitable for the map and bio. It was definitly a series that could had gone either way and his performance in game 1 was shaky and game 2 was a build order win.
Innovation vs Life on the other hand... yeah, the kid the awesome, but we are speaking of TvT.
Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc.. Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation.
On May 06 2013 17:39 Godwrath wrote: His games against Flash weren't that amazing. Do the recap, game one Innovation died to Flash because of his own denial to build turrets and deffend the dropbats on a very embarassing way that he couldn't adapt at all. Second game was a build order win, and the third, while Innovation played well, and abused his multitask, Flash never built ravens/vikings to go with his mechforce and the map wasn't exactly favored for mech.
Good to see him crushing tho.
No. He lost game 1 due to a build order loss. He won game 2 due to a build order win. He won game 3 with some of the best multitasking I've ever seen, and perfect defense vs hellbat drops. Don't try to downplay how fucking insanely well he played.
Huh ? He didn't lose game 1 due to a build order lol. Game 1 he lost because he took too damage of hellbats drops and never tried to defend them efficiently, losing shitload of scvs and was forced to try to be aggressive against a well fortified flash. And game 3 was awesome, but rewatch the game, you are overhyped by the group of death if you are telling me flash unit composition was not horrible and exploitable for the map and bio. It was definitly a series that could had gone either way and his performance in game 1 was shaky and game 2 was a build order win.
Innovation vs Life on the other hand... yeah, the kid the awesome, but we are speaking of TvT.
Huh? He did lose game 1 due to a BO loss lol. You need to watch the game again. He was actually so far behind after his 2 rax did nothing. Innovation had to cut massive corners (not building turrets) in order to catch up. Flash murdered him with drops because this was the corner Innovation had to cut. Also, Flash just murdered Reality with the same unit comp on the same map as game 3.
On May 06 2013 17:39 Godwrath wrote: His games against Flash weren't that amazing. Do the recap, game one Innovation died to Flash because of his own denial to build turrets and deffend the dropbats on a very embarassing way that he couldn't adapt at all. Second game was a build order win, and the third, while Innovation played well, and abused his multitask, Flash never built ravens/vikings to go with his mechforce and the map wasn't exactly favored for mech.
Good to see him crushing tho.
No. He lost game 1 due to a build order loss. He won game 2 due to a build order win. He won game 3 with some of the best multitasking I've ever seen, and perfect defense vs hellbat drops. Don't try to downplay how fucking insanely well he played.
Huh ? He didn't lose game 1 due to a build order lol. Game 1 he lost because he took too damage of hellbats drops and never tried to defend them efficiently, losing shitload of scvs and was forced to try to be aggressive against a well fortified flash. And game 3 was awesome, but rewatch the game, you are overhyped by the group of death if you are telling me flash unit composition was not horrible and exploitable for the map and bio. It was definitly a series that could had gone either way and his performance in game 1 was shaky and game 2 was a build order win.
Innovation vs Life on the other hand... yeah, the kid the awesome, but we are speaking of TvT.
Huh? He did lose game 1 due to a BO loss lol. You need to watch the game again. He was actually so far behind after his 2 rax did nothing. Innovation had to cut massive corners (not building turrets) in order to catch up. Flash murdered him with drops because this was the corner Innovation had to cut. Also, Flash just murdered Reality with the same unit comp on the same map as game 3.
he evened it up though with his drop (a bit behind but not much). he could have taken it from that point had he played a bit better
On May 06 2013 17:39 Godwrath wrote: His games against Flash weren't that amazing. Do the recap, game one Innovation died to Flash because of his own denial to build turrets and deffend the dropbats on a very embarassing way that he couldn't adapt at all. Second game was a build order win, and the third, while Innovation played well, and abused his multitask, Flash never built ravens/vikings to go with his mechforce and the map wasn't exactly favored for mech.
Good to see him crushing tho.
No. He lost game 1 due to a build order loss. He won game 2 due to a build order win. He won game 3 with some of the best multitasking I've ever seen, and perfect defense vs hellbat drops. Don't try to downplay how fucking insanely well he played.
Huh ? He didn't lose game 1 due to a build order lol. Game 1 he lost because he took too damage of hellbats drops and never tried to defend them efficiently, losing shitload of scvs and was forced to try to be aggressive against a well fortified flash. And game 3 was awesome, but rewatch the game, you are overhyped by the group of death if you are telling me flash unit composition was not horrible and exploitable for the map and bio. It was definitly a series that could had gone either way and his performance in game 1 was shaky and game 2 was a build order win.
Innovation vs Life on the other hand... yeah, the kid the awesome, but we are speaking of TvT.
Huh? He did lose game 1 due to a BO loss lol. You need to watch the game again. He was actually so far behind after his 2 rax did nothing. Innovation had to cut massive corners (not building turrets) in order to catch up. Flash murdered him with drops because this was the corner Innovation had to cut. Also, Flash just murdered Reality with the same unit comp on the same map as game 3.
he evened it up though with his drop (a bit behind but not much). he could have taken it from that point had he played a bit better
I guess I'm being a little bit biased because of my undying love for innovation :p
I just watched the VODs.. Innovation is so good it makes it look like he's hacking. He gets Stimpack upgrade 18 minutes into the game. 18 MINUTES! How often do you see a guy get that crucial upgrade this late?! How often do you see someone get himself into a winning position already without getting that crucial upgrade?!
Got Marine-Tank defending your base? No problem. I got my 1-1 with no stimmed Marine-Tank.
On May 05 2013 22:27 PhoenixVoid wrote: Is INoVation even stoppable now? After seeing him dominate the group of death and all-kill EG-TL, I'm even more convinced he is a lock for the GSL finals, and likely the champion.
That's what a lot of people said about Bomber 2 years ago. Innovation has been incredibly consistent these past few months (making the Ro4, then the Ro8, and now at least the Ro8 again in the GSL), but he'll have to win that championship to cement his legacy.
I'd say soulkey and sos are the top contenders to stop innovation from winning this GSL. If they weren't in it, I'd for sure say he had the championship in the bag.
His TvT don't look that solid, his games against Taeja were close, and bomber defeated Taeja in the Ro8. And I would say Gumiho and Yoda are as good TvT'er as bomber, so I wouldn't be surprised at all to fall to a terran ( or at least less surprised than if he lost to a zerg )
Gumiho's multi-tasking is good but his tvt is definitely not as consistent as Innovation's. His mechanics also looked sloppy at dreamhack.
Bomber's tvt is also pretty damn inconsistent. His win over taeja was a bo3 and Taeja's not doing so well currently so a victory over him doesn't really mean anything. And if bomber and innovation were to meet, it would probably be in the ro4. Considering bomber choked in situations with much less pressure, I wouldn't be surprised if he tilted hard against whoever he played.
On May 06 2013 23:50 ZenithM wrote: Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc.. Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation.
true, except we need Innovation to win 2 GSLs to prove himself and be even comparable to MVP. MKP/Taeja all did so great earlier last year too, however they were never ever close to MVP's prime level.
On May 06 2013 23:50 ZenithM wrote: Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc.. Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation.
true, except we need Innovation to win 2 GSLs to prove himself and be even comparable to MVP. MKP/Taeja all did so great earlier last year too, however they were never ever close to MVP's prime level.
Innovation is better than Mvp at his prime looking from any objective standpoint. The GSLs that Mvp won had a really weak lineup compared the the one we have today in Code S. Of course if we go by pure number of tournament wins instead of looking at skill then yeah Mvp is better in terms of numbers.
On May 06 2013 23:50 ZenithM wrote: Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc.. Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation.
true, except we need Innovation to win 2 GSLs to prove himself and be even comparable to MVP. MKP/Taeja all did so great earlier last year too, however they were never ever close to MVP's prime level.
Innovation is better than Mvp at his prime looking from any objective standpoint. The GSLs that Mvp won had a really weak lineup compared the the one we have today in Code S. Of course if we go by pure number of tournament wins instead of looking at skill then yeah Mvp is better in terms of numbers.
This. I don't know why people still refuse to accept that the early SC2 transitioners (mostly ESF players) which include MVP were BW B-teamers aka "dishwashers". These are the guys who didn't get to play televised games because they sucked, relatively.
The KeSPA benchmark is just generally higher. If MVP (sans whatever injury) played against Innovation/Soulkey today it will be like watching Agassi (in his prime) versus Djokovic.
On May 06 2013 23:50 ZenithM wrote: Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc.. Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation.
true, except we need Innovation to win 2 GSLs to prove himself and be even comparable to MVP. MKP/Taeja all did so great earlier last year too, however they were never ever close to MVP's prime level.
Innovation is better than Mvp at his prime looking from any objective standpoint. The GSLs that Mvp won had a really weak lineup compared the the one we have today in Code S. Of course if we go by pure number of tournament wins instead of looking at skill then yeah Mvp is better in terms of numbers.
This. I don't know why people still refuse to accept that the early SC2 transitioners (mostly ESF players) which include MVP were BW B-teamers aka "dishwashers". These are the guys who didn't get to play televised games because they sucked, relatively.
The KeSPA benchmark is just generally higher. If MVP (sans whatever injury) played against Innovation/Soulkey today it will be like watching Agassi (in his prime) versus Djokovic.
That's not an entirely fair comparison to make, because as the game evolves and players understand it better the overall skill a player from now has will be higher than the skill of a player who was considered that good back a few years ago.
On May 06 2013 23:50 ZenithM wrote: Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc.. Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation.
Mvp was still stronger back then in comparison. You are talking about a player that won everything he went into. Has Innovation even won 1 tournament so far?
On May 06 2013 23:50 ZenithM wrote: Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc.. Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation.
true, except we need Innovation to win 2 GSLs to prove himself and be even comparable to MVP. MKP/Taeja all did so great earlier last year too, however they were never ever close to MVP's prime level.
Innovation is better than Mvp at his prime looking from any objective standpoint. The GSLs that Mvp won had a really weak lineup compared the the one we have today in Code S. Of course if we go by pure number of tournament wins instead of looking at skill then yeah Mvp is better in terms of numbers.
That is not fair and you know it. You should look at the state of the game back then , not compare to the one now. In his prime Mvp was better when looking at the overall skill back then, he won so much it was silly. If you compare the skill of the players back then to now basically everything done before is useless.
On May 06 2013 23:50 ZenithM wrote: Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc.. Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation.
Mvp was still stronger back then in comparison. You are talking about a player that won everything he went into. Has Innovation even won 1 tournament so far?
The scene was way less competitive back then. At least half the best RTS talent was still playing another game.
On May 06 2013 23:50 ZenithM wrote: Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc.. Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation.
Mvp was still stronger back then in comparison. You are talking about a player that won everything he went into. Has Innovation even won 1 tournament so far?
HuK won MLG, Innovation hasn't won a tournament. HuK > Innovation.
When we actually look at the strength of the opponents they are playing, it soon becomes clear tournament wins are irrelevant when playing different calibers of players.
On May 06 2013 23:50 ZenithM wrote: Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc.. Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation.
Mvp was still stronger back then in comparison. You are talking about a player that won everything he went into. Has Innovation even won 1 tournament so far?
HuK won MLG, Innovation hasn't won a tournament. HuK > Innovation.
When we actually look at the strength of the opponents they are playing, it soon becomes clear tournament wins are irrelevant when playing different calibers of players.
Nevertheless, in SC2 especially, players have a tendency to come and go without ever really leaving any proof of their claim to fame. You really have to win a title or two to prove that it's not just a fluke.
On May 06 2013 23:50 ZenithM wrote: Innovation is the best Terran because he has it all: macro, micro, decision-making, build orders (with the right amount of cheesiness), multitasking, stone cold consistency, etc, etc.. Never before did we have someone like this, except maybe Mvp in 2011 (relatively to the global SC2 skill in 2011, Mvp was a god too).
Name one other Terran, and I'll tell you where that one lacks compared to Innovation.
Mvp was still stronger back then in comparison. You are talking about a player that won everything he went into. Has Innovation even won 1 tournament so far?
The scene was way less competitive back then. At least half the best RTS talent was still playing another game.
I don't think that makes the achievements from 2 years ago less valid. The meta-game might have been different, but that also rewarded innovation (pun intended) and creativity. Plus, things like smaller maps meant more focus on early game aggression and defense, and micro.
The Kespa players have brought a lot of talent into the scene, but they certainly have not dominated that much.
EPT
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HerO <Whirlwind>
INnoVation![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bv8Kw.png)
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Will take him off ASAP!
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