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I wish I didn't have to "hate" on EG here, but I honestly find EG's promotion driven business and fan/personality driven model to be poisonous to the team. TL is not nearly as obnoxious with this stuff and would not put so much pressure on the players to produce content, reach out to fans all the time, etc. EG also puts so much out and in turn there is a lot more added pressure onto these players that other teams don't have. Sure the other korean teams have fans, but its not all about proving themselves every time. Bottom line, the whole EG superstar player concept makes them very entertaining, but also makes it very hard for the players to just practice and get better. The superstar players like DRG Nestea IMMVP MKP Leenock JJajki (at that time), Parting, Squirtle emerged with beastly teams of people to practice with. This is not how the EGTL house works with their current roster.
The team over there is just not optimal. The foreigners have too many priorities and they don't take proleague seriously enough. I'd say Thorzain is the exception, but he just doesn't seem to be on the level required unfortunately. Stephano just doesn't seem to have the motivation and style to really give PL 110%, he loves free $$$ too much.. Jaedong has held his own, but again hes a superstar and getting older, I don't feel like he has the drive like Flash or Fantasy do right now. Hero, Taeja (minus injury) are fine. Revival is actually good, especially i could see as a practice partner i think. JYP gets too nervous and doesn't perform well with pressure, and mechanically is not all that impressive. Puma has just kinda fallen off and doesnt add much other than maybe practice, but his mechanics aren't super impressive either.
I think to turn this around or turn it around, and for the future, EGTL needs to let some people go (from the house), and have some open trials or something in Korea. They should keep JD, Hero, Taeja Revival as players...and then the rest should go. There is no way these other guys would get into a Kespa Team. They need quality practice partners and to stop waiting around for these other guys to carry their weight. They aren't helping each other improve, and they aren't performing well either. The problem with take this action? It goes against everything EG stands for and is successful/profitable for..so unfortunately I think this experiment has failed. TL has held up its end of the bargain respectably, but EG is just poison for this team.
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On February 27 2013 03:24 edgeOut wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 03:16 Glon wrote:On February 26 2013 17:33 Sabu113 wrote:
Well they can bring the foreigners to get results in HoTS...
Right? Foreigners are getting DESTROYED in HotS. ~45 of the top 50 in GM are koreans lol Is that Korean Ladder? If it is, 5 of top 50 is insanely good for foreigners.
There's only 1 ladder lol. It's global ladder. And of those 5, 3-4 are EU
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
On February 27 2013 01:44 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 01:40 edgeOut wrote:On February 27 2013 01:33 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 27 2013 01:28 kusto wrote:On February 27 2013 00:42 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 27 2013 00:37 MiQ wrote:On February 27 2013 00:33 Otolia wrote:On February 27 2013 00:26 MiQ wrote:
JYP and PuMa lost? What a surprise
Need Jaedong back on a real team as EGTL obviously isn't working. Because you think he'll be able to win a ZvP just by moving to another team ? He won't, he is terrible in that match-up and no one is going to help him but himself. All I am saying is that maybe if he was surroudned by a competent team he would improve faster. I doubt it. He'd learn to BO snipe protoss instead of figuring out how ZvP works faster. He'd still be bad at the matchup, except he might get silly wins by executing strats that don't require him to understand the matchup. I'd rather have him learn slowly. How is this different from understanding the matchup? This is a funny excuse. I could learn how to proxy gate and hope to catch BO wins vs someone like MKP who's known for going CC first. Ain't got much to do with understanding the matchup, does it? I watch lots of PL and cannon rushes/proxy gates or proxying other stuff is used pretttttttttttty often compared to anywhere else. Also it's not an excuse, I'm not necessarily a fan of Jaedong or EG. I'm just saying learning how to BO snipe people =|= learning a matchup. Most BW legends cheesed their way to the top, Jaedong, Boxer, July, and early Flash. Early game and cheese is where Koreans shine, just ask every foreigner heros in the history of BW and SC2, most of them are macro monsters, but they fail in early game due to lack of attention to details. Indeed, much of the 'Korean style' involves using heavy cheesing and all-inning to build up an aura of unpredictability, which keeps opponents honest, and then going for greedy builds when the time is right--like when Flash proxy rax'd Kwanro all through the MSL semis only to 14cc three times in a row vs Jaedong in the finals. This isn't to say foreigners can't do this as well, but it seems the foreigners who are best at metagaming the fuck out of people end up doing something like poker instead.
Except I don't understand why he said "early Flash". Either you mean "Early JD, Boxer, July, Flash" or you are wrong by distinguishing him for not making any sense. Also, I don't remember JD being under that category really. But if that label floated around him then it was a long ass time ago.
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I don't know what people expected. They play against a system that perfected building players and coaches.
Meanwhile, EG-TL can only really make moves by buying players. And they tend to buy by names. Also, their business model is simply in conflict with the competition, if players stream before they have important matches.
It's a win for esports that you can't simply buy yourself to the top. That doesn't mean that foreign teams are barred from entering Korean leagues. FXO seems to have the better approach.
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On February 27 2013 03:30 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 01:44 Shady Sands wrote:On February 27 2013 01:40 edgeOut wrote:On February 27 2013 01:33 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 27 2013 01:28 kusto wrote:On February 27 2013 00:42 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 27 2013 00:37 MiQ wrote:On February 27 2013 00:33 Otolia wrote:On February 27 2013 00:26 MiQ wrote:
JYP and PuMa lost? What a surprise
Need Jaedong back on a real team as EGTL obviously isn't working. Because you think he'll be able to win a ZvP just by moving to another team ? He won't, he is terrible in that match-up and no one is going to help him but himself. All I am saying is that maybe if he was surroudned by a competent team he would improve faster. I doubt it. He'd learn to BO snipe protoss instead of figuring out how ZvP works faster. He'd still be bad at the matchup, except he might get silly wins by executing strats that don't require him to understand the matchup. I'd rather have him learn slowly. How is this different from understanding the matchup? This is a funny excuse. I could learn how to proxy gate and hope to catch BO wins vs someone like MKP who's known for going CC first. Ain't got much to do with understanding the matchup, does it? I watch lots of PL and cannon rushes/proxy gates or proxying other stuff is used pretttttttttttty often compared to anywhere else. Also it's not an excuse, I'm not necessarily a fan of Jaedong or EG. I'm just saying learning how to BO snipe people =|= learning a matchup. Most BW legends cheesed their way to the top, Jaedong, Boxer, July, and early Flash. Early game and cheese is where Koreans shine, just ask every foreigner heros in the history of BW and SC2, most of them are macro monsters, but they fail in early game due to lack of attention to details. Indeed, much of the 'Korean style' involves using heavy cheesing and all-inning to build up an aura of unpredictability, which keeps opponents honest, and then going for greedy builds when the time is right--like when Flash proxy rax'd Kwanro all through the MSL semis only to 14cc three times in a row vs Jaedong in the finals. This isn't to say foreigners can't do this as well, but it seems the foreigners who are best at metagaming the fuck out of people end up doing something like poker instead. Except I don't understand why he said "early Flash". Either you mean "Early JD, Boxer, July, Flash" or you are wrong by distinguishing him for not making any sense. Also, I don't remember JD being under that category really. But if that label floated around him then it was a long ass time ago.
Jaedong was more an agressive zerg and an heir to July and YellOw at the beginning, before slowly going toward a more macro oriented, sAviOresque style. Tons of 2 hatch mutas, good micro etc...
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On February 27 2013 03:34 SinCitta wrote:
It's a win for esports that you can't simply buy yourself to the top.
i guess this is the reason why the last 4 or 5 teamleague finals in bw were all between skt and kt, the two sponsors that spent by far the most money on their bw team...
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On February 27 2013 03:42 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 03:34 SinCitta wrote:
It's a win for esports that you can't simply buy yourself to the top. i guess this is the reason why the last 4 or 5 teamleague finals in bw were all between skt and kt, the two sponsors that spent by far the most money on their bw team...
The only notable star player transfers in SKT's history were Bisu and July in 2007, and the latter even did terribly.
SKT and KT are receiving the most money because they are the teams that basically built the competitive BW scene and produced dynasties of legendary players. They earned their popularity, sponsors and money through accomplishments, the opposite of "buying themselves to the top".
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Stephano just doesn't seem to have the motivation and style to really give PL 110%, he loves free $$$ too much.
I think he just don't like korean tournament.
I mean he avoided GSL as long as possible so i can't imagine him enjoying proleague a lot...
He's definitively more of an inter tournament player imo.
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Yeah but it feels at some point in your career you have to accept you're playing Starcraft 2 and not 'International Tournaments.'
These things do matter, but all things considered a player is good when he is good at the game, not when he's good in a particular setting.
I hope he steps up and proves himself as a player instead of doing whatever it is he is doing right now (very uninspiring play overall since gsl). Maybe he's just playing hots too much and I'm exaggerating, idk.
That being said, EGTL really needs to step up their game or be kicked out of PL. Kespa is a tough league where you need to practice specific matchups and maps, prepare for specific opponents, and have a strategy. Right now it feels they send out players randomly and random maps, and those players just play like they would on ladder. It isn't working.
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On February 27 2013 03:58 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 03:42 Black Gun wrote:On February 27 2013 03:34 SinCitta wrote:
It's a win for esports that you can't simply buy yourself to the top. i guess this is the reason why the last 4 or 5 teamleague finals in bw were all between skt and kt, the two sponsors that spent by far the most money on their bw team... The only notable star player transfers in SKT's history were Bisu and July in 2007, and the latter even did terribly. SKT and KT are receiving the most money because they are the teams that basically built the competitive BW scene and produced dynasties of legendary players. They earned their popularity, sponsors and money through accomplishments, the opposite of "buying themselves to the top".
Yeah... also KT Curse anyone? fOrGG and Luxury both slumped after joining KT. Winning the PL/doing well in PL was (as far as I'm aware) due to KT Zerg channeling some Yellow and Stats/Violet(Rest in Peace) going hard for a while. I wouldn't quite call it the money factor. They scouted out Flash back before he became a legend as well. Sure these teams bought players but for a chunk of BW history there were always strong contenders too.
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On February 27 2013 00:20 Doodsmack wrote:The mindset of a fair weather fan  .
I was more just cheering for the foreigner team. I'm not really a fan of either teams.
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On February 27 2013 03:27 Irre wrote:
I wish I didn't have to "hate" on EG here, but I honestly find EG's promotion driven business and fan/personality driven model to be poisonous to the team. TL is not nearly as obnoxious with this stuff and would not put so much pressure on the players to produce content, reach out to fans all the time, etc. EG also puts so much out and in turn there is a lot more added pressure onto these players that other teams don't have. Sure the other korean teams have fans, but its not all about proving themselves every time. Bottom line, the whole EG superstar player concept makes them very entertaining, but also makes it very hard for the players to just practice and get better. The superstar players like DRG Nestea IMMVP MKP Leenock JJajki (at that time), Parting, Squirtle emerged with beastly teams of people to practice with. This is not how the EGTL house works with their current roster.
The team over there is just not optimal. The foreigners have too many priorities and they don't take proleague seriously enough. I'd say Thorzain is the exception, but he just doesn't seem to be on the level required unfortunately. Stephano just doesn't seem to have the motivation and style to really give PL 110%, he loves free $$$ too much.. Jaedong has held his own, but again hes a superstar and getting older, I don't feel like he has the drive like Flash or Fantasy do right now. Hero, Taeja (minus injury) are fine. Revival is actually good, especially i could see as a practice partner i think. JYP gets too nervous and doesn't perform well with pressure, and mechanically is not all that impressive. Puma has just kinda fallen off and doesnt add much other than maybe practice, but his mechanics aren't super impressive either.
I think to turn this around or turn it around, and for the future, EGTL needs to let some people go (from the house), and have some open trials or something in Korea. They should keep JD, Hero, Taeja Revival as players...and then the rest should go. There is no way these other guys would get into a Kespa Team. They need quality practice partners and to stop waiting around for these other guys to carry their weight. They aren't helping each other improve, and they aren't performing well either. The problem with take this action? It goes against everything EG stands for and is successful/profitable for..so unfortunately I think this experiment has failed. TL has held up its end of the bargain respectably, but EG is just poison for this team.
Both teams are woefullly unprepared for this format. Don't just spout talking points and stuff like "EG bad, Liquid good". That being said, EG could really use players such as Taeja and Hero, especially since they lack a strong Terran. Liquid needs EG as well, since they only have 2 players who are competitive.
Either way, this "Unholy Alliance" is nothing more than a laughingstock now.
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
On February 27 2013 04:28 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 03:27 Irre wrote:
I wish I didn't have to "hate" on EG here, but I honestly find EG's promotion driven business and fan/personality driven model to be poisonous to the team. TL is not nearly as obnoxious with this stuff and would not put so much pressure on the players to produce content, reach out to fans all the time, etc. EG also puts so much out and in turn there is a lot more added pressure onto these players that other teams don't have. Sure the other korean teams have fans, but its not all about proving themselves every time. Bottom line, the whole EG superstar player concept makes them very entertaining, but also makes it very hard for the players to just practice and get better. The superstar players like DRG Nestea IMMVP MKP Leenock JJajki (at that time), Parting, Squirtle emerged with beastly teams of people to practice with. This is not how the EGTL house works with their current roster.
The team over there is just not optimal. The foreigners have too many priorities and they don't take proleague seriously enough. I'd say Thorzain is the exception, but he just doesn't seem to be on the level required unfortunately. Stephano just doesn't seem to have the motivation and style to really give PL 110%, he loves free $$$ too much.. Jaedong has held his own, but again hes a superstar and getting older, I don't feel like he has the drive like Flash or Fantasy do right now. Hero, Taeja (minus injury) are fine. Revival is actually good, especially i could see as a practice partner i think. JYP gets too nervous and doesn't perform well with pressure, and mechanically is not all that impressive. Puma has just kinda fallen off and doesnt add much other than maybe practice, but his mechanics aren't super impressive either.
I think to turn this around or turn it around, and for the future, EGTL needs to let some people go (from the house), and have some open trials or something in Korea. They should keep JD, Hero, Taeja Revival as players...and then the rest should go. There is no way these other guys would get into a Kespa Team. They need quality practice partners and to stop waiting around for these other guys to carry their weight. They aren't helping each other improve, and they aren't performing well either. The problem with take this action? It goes against everything EG stands for and is successful/profitable for..so unfortunately I think this experiment has failed. TL has held up its end of the bargain respectably, but EG is just poison for this team. Both teams are woefullly unprepared for this format. Don't just spout talking points and stuff like "EG bad, Liquid good". That being said, EG could really use players such as Taeja and Hero, especially since they lack a strong Terran. Liquid needs EG as well, since they only have 2 players who are competitive. Either way, this "Unholy Alliance" is nothing more than a laughingstock now.
Regardless of what it is at the end of the season, at least we eliminated "what ifs".
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France12906 Posts
On February 26 2013 23:28 las91 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 23:23 Ragnarork wrote:On February 26 2013 22:04 Poopi wrote:On February 26 2013 21:44 Ragnarork wrote:On February 26 2013 21:16 Kabras wrote:
lolol eztl plz lose more :D. the skill difference between kespa players and everyone else is pretty huge tho. this is pretty embarrassing already, should go back to playing Code A and foreign tourneys. EG-TL =/= everyone else than KeSPA. Plus, can you remind me where does JD comes from ? Pretty sad, but the more it goes on, the less it surprises me (and lol @ Stephano asking for series on Twitter. Guy you got practice to do if you want to keep up with the other pro, or at least to justify you earn money that better players don't..) This is becoming shameful.. He has no interest in practicing WoL anymore with HotS coming around, and even when he wins games his mates lose so why bother . They better train hard for HotS in order to make a strong showing, it's already over for them this round. That's why he lost his Code A match, ofc. Die hard Stephano fans having a hard time coming to grips with reality, what else is new? I guess KT Rolster really has EG-TLs number though, 3 matches and 3 stomps is pretty indicative.
Lol I'm one of the few french who wants Stephano to lose against quite a lot of koreans (mostly terrans) so I'm far from beig a Stephano fan. He lost his code A match which was on WoL, what's your point?
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Russian Federation823 Posts
On February 27 2013 01:33 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 01:28 kusto wrote:On February 27 2013 00:42 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 27 2013 00:37 MiQ wrote:On February 27 2013 00:33 Otolia wrote:On February 27 2013 00:26 MiQ wrote:
JYP and PuMa lost? What a surprise
Need Jaedong back on a real team as EGTL obviously isn't working. Because you think he'll be able to win a ZvP just by moving to another team ? He won't, he is terrible in that match-up and no one is going to help him but himself. All I am saying is that maybe if he was surroudned by a competent team he would improve faster. I doubt it. He'd learn to BO snipe protoss instead of figuring out how ZvP works faster. He'd still be bad at the matchup, except he might get silly wins by executing strats that don't require him to understand the matchup. I'd rather have him learn slowly. How is this different from understanding the matchup? This is a funny excuse. I could learn how to proxy gate and hope to catch BO wins vs someone like MKP who's known for going CC first. Ain't got much to do with understanding the matchup, does it? I watch lots of PL and cannon rushes/proxy gates or proxying other stuff is used pretttttttttttty often compared to anywhere else. Also it's not an excuse, I'm not necessarily a fan of Jaedong or EG. I'm just saying learning how to BO snipe people =|= learning a matchup.
Of course build order countering is how you learn the game. Scouting, reacting to different styles. Of course MKP will make sure not to CC first against somebody who cheeses every game. Against safe styles build order countering would be solid, greedy play based on scouting. And the interpretation of scouted information is your status quo of game knowledge.
A build-order counterer knows a ton more things about the game than a safe macro player - and besides is also a better pro gamer in general, since you play to win, not to play macro or whatever.
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I think they simply overestimated their chances in the beginning. Speculating about stuff like practice schedules and coaching won't do anything, it's just up to them to rethink their approach to the whole PL adventure.
Yes, most of the EGTL players are underperforming. Yes, their roster seems to be too thin. Yes, the key players are sniped pretty often. None of these issues can be fixed in one night.
I hope they will show better games in R4. It would be a shame, if they ended up as the punching bag of PL.
Sidenote: MrBitter must be a happy man right now.+ Show Spoiler +
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On February 27 2013 03:27 Irre wrote:
I wish I didn't have to "hate" on EG here, but I honestly find EG's promotion driven business and fan/personality driven model to be poisonous to the team. TL is not nearly as obnoxious with this stuff and would not put so much pressure on the players to produce content, reach out to fans all the time, etc. EG also puts so much out and in turn there is a lot more added pressure onto these players that other teams don't have. Sure the other korean teams have fans, but its not all about proving themselves every time. Bottom line, the whole EG superstar player concept makes them very entertaining, but also makes it very hard for the players to just practice and get better. The superstar players like DRG Nestea IMMVP MKP Leenock JJajki (at that time), Parting, Squirtle emerged with beastly teams of people to practice with. This is not how the EGTL house works with their current roster.
The team over there is just not optimal. The foreigners have too many priorities and they don't take proleague seriously enough. I'd say Thorzain is the exception, but he just doesn't seem to be on the level required unfortunately. Stephano just doesn't seem to have the motivation and style to really give PL 110%, he loves free $$$ too much.. Jaedong has held his own, but again hes a superstar and getting older, I don't feel like he has the drive like Flash or Fantasy do right now. Hero, Taeja (minus injury) are fine. Revival is actually good, especially i could see as a practice partner i think. JYP gets too nervous and doesn't perform well with pressure, and mechanically is not all that impressive. Puma has just kinda fallen off and doesnt add much other than maybe practice, but his mechanics aren't super impressive either.
I think to turn this around or turn it around, and for the future, EGTL needs to let some people go (from the house), and have some open trials or something in Korea. They should keep JD, Hero, Taeja Revival as players...and then the rest should go. There is no way these other guys would get into a Kespa Team. They need quality practice partners and to stop waiting around for these other guys to carry their weight. They aren't helping each other improve, and they aren't performing well either. The problem with take this action? It goes against everything EG stands for and is successful/profitable for..so unfortunately I think this experiment has failed. TL has held up its end of the bargain respectably, but EG is just poison for this team.
JYP has a better PL win-rate than JD, Revival, and Hero. Taeja is only 6-5 so with 1 more loss him and JYP would be equal. JYP's is especially impressive since he's been one of (maybe the most played?) the most played players as well meaning it's harder to keep a good win-rate.
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On February 27 2013 03:27 Glon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 03:24 edgeOut wrote:On February 27 2013 03:16 Glon wrote:On February 26 2013 17:33 Sabu113 wrote:
Well they can bring the foreigners to get results in HoTS...
Right? Foreigners are getting DESTROYED in HotS. ~45 of the top 50 in GM are koreans lol Is that Korean Ladder? If it is, 5 of top 50 is insanely good for foreigners. There's only 1 ladder lol. It's global ladder. And of those 5, 3-4 are EU
Oh, then still I think 10% on top is pretty good for foreigners. Maybe this is because some top koreans just haven't play hots much.
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EPT
