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On January 12 2013 15:40 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 15:39 Wingblade wrote:On January 12 2013 15:37 fire_brand wrote:On January 12 2013 15:34 Maesy wrote:On January 12 2013 15:33 Emzeeshady wrote:On January 12 2013 15:31 Havik_ wrote:I thought this mass muta garbage ended in 2011  garbage? Its awesome Awesomely uncounterable. It's easily counterable. Any ESF player will smash it. Trap was just way behind from the start of the game. And honestly Shine should win on 5 base 2 by just throwing units at his oppenent. The problem is how does Trap stop him from getting 5 bases, AND take a fourth, AND defend his probes, AND his tech against a mutalisk count like that and a bunch of spines at every base? No amount of blink stalkers can fight that much glaive worm bounce damage. The counter is storm upgrade, archons, and cannon / ht at each base. Trap was too behind to do that.
Pretty much this. The style was figured out enough in mid 2011 so that all P has to do is cannon/ht and make sure to include archons + stalkers + storm. He got his archives and third sniped a few times and at that point it's all downhill. Shine could have made any unit en masse and won the game at that point, he just decided to make it look really weird with as many mutas as he could build.
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On January 12 2013 15:40 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 15:37 Caihead wrote:On January 12 2013 15:36 jinorazi wrote:
last i checked ranged pheonix are pretty damn good against mutas Stop saying this, didn't you see that the templar archives already got sniped. Investing into fleet beacon for it to be sniped and another research time is ludicrous in a situation like that. t.a is needed for fleet beacon?? i dont recall. if i go stargate, i get it knowingly it'll counter muta play.
What? No one goes stargate to counter mutaslisks. That's not how it works. Low number of mutas = blink stalker. High number = archon / storm. Range upgrade is niche as hell, infestors are out by the time you have it.
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On January 12 2013 15:40 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 15:39 Wingblade wrote:On January 12 2013 15:37 fire_brand wrote:On January 12 2013 15:34 Maesy wrote:On January 12 2013 15:33 Emzeeshady wrote:On January 12 2013 15:31 Havik_ wrote:I thought this mass muta garbage ended in 2011 garbage? Its awesome Awesomely uncounterable. It's easily counterable. Any ESF player will smash it. Trap was just way behind from the start of the game. And honestly Shine should win on 5 base 2 by just throwing units at his oppenent. The problem is how does Trap stop him from getting 5 bases, AND take a fourth, AND defend his probes, AND his tech against a mutalisk count like that and a bunch of spines at every base? No amount of blink stalkers can fight that much glaive worm bounce damage. The counter is storm upgrade, archons, and cannon / ht at each base. Trap was too behind to do that.
So then how do you apply pressure at the same time to prevent the Zerg getting to 5 bases? I understand what the "counter" is. But how do you do all those things and set up additional expansions, AND deny Zerg economy at the same time?
The problem has never been the mutalisk itself. It's the complete map dominance you get from that style.
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On January 12 2013 15:43 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 15:40 Caihead wrote:On January 12 2013 15:39 Wingblade wrote:On January 12 2013 15:37 fire_brand wrote:On January 12 2013 15:34 Maesy wrote:On January 12 2013 15:33 Emzeeshady wrote:On January 12 2013 15:31 Havik_ wrote:I thought this mass muta garbage ended in 2011 garbage? Its awesome Awesomely uncounterable. It's easily counterable. Any ESF player will smash it. Trap was just way behind from the start of the game. And honestly Shine should win on 5 base 2 by just throwing units at his oppenent. The problem is how does Trap stop him from getting 5 bases, AND take a fourth, AND defend his probes, AND his tech against a mutalisk count like that and a bunch of spines at every base? No amount of blink stalkers can fight that much glaive worm bounce damage. The counter is storm upgrade, archons, and cannon / ht at each base. Trap was too behind to do that. So then how do you apply pressure at the same time to prevent the Zerg getting to 5 bases? I understand what the "counter" is. But how do you do all those things and set up additional expansions, AND deny Zerg economy at the same time? The problem has never been the mutalisk itself. It's the complete map dominance you get from that style.
That's not how it happened. Zerg got ahead with full gas mining first before doing mutalisks. If the protoss was on even grounds he would have had the third running the whole time and storm researching or finishing by the time he sees the mutas. Zerg had map control even before the mutalisks. I don't know why I'm explaining this since Trap was too behind for any real viable option any ways. His third got sniped, his templar archives got sniped. If neither of those happened he could have still defended it.
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On January 12 2013 15:42 las91 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 15:40 Caihead wrote:On January 12 2013 15:39 Wingblade wrote:On January 12 2013 15:37 fire_brand wrote:On January 12 2013 15:34 Maesy wrote:On January 12 2013 15:33 Emzeeshady wrote:On January 12 2013 15:31 Havik_ wrote:I thought this mass muta garbage ended in 2011 garbage? Its awesome Awesomely uncounterable. It's easily counterable. Any ESF player will smash it. Trap was just way behind from the start of the game. And honestly Shine should win on 5 base 2 by just throwing units at his oppenent. The problem is how does Trap stop him from getting 5 bases, AND take a fourth, AND defend his probes, AND his tech against a mutalisk count like that and a bunch of spines at every base? No amount of blink stalkers can fight that much glaive worm bounce damage. The counter is storm upgrade, archons, and cannon / ht at each base. Trap was too behind to do that. Pretty much this. The style was figured out enough in mid 2011 so that all P has to do is cannon/ht and make sure to include archons + stalkers + storm. He got his archives and third sniped a few times and at that point it's all downhill. Shine could have made any unit en masse and won the game at that point, he just decided to make it look really weird with as many mutas as he could build.
This is such a complete fallacy I don't even know what to say. Mutalisk styles were still the standard until Stephano came out with the roach max. Zergs transitioned to that because it was practically a free-win button when it first came out. Mutalisk styles never got "figured out" unless you had absurd multitasking. Phoenix range did nothing unless you went stargate every single game which made you vulnerable to other timings.
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On January 12 2013 15:43 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 15:40 Caihead wrote:On January 12 2013 15:39 Wingblade wrote:On January 12 2013 15:37 fire_brand wrote:On January 12 2013 15:34 Maesy wrote:On January 12 2013 15:33 Emzeeshady wrote:On January 12 2013 15:31 Havik_ wrote:I thought this mass muta garbage ended in 2011 garbage? Its awesome Awesomely uncounterable. It's easily counterable. Any ESF player will smash it. Trap was just way behind from the start of the game. And honestly Shine should win on 5 base 2 by just throwing units at his oppenent. The problem is how does Trap stop him from getting 5 bases, AND take a fourth, AND defend his probes, AND his tech against a mutalisk count like that and a bunch of spines at every base? No amount of blink stalkers can fight that much glaive worm bounce damage. The counter is storm upgrade, archons, and cannon / ht at each base. Trap was too behind to do that. So then how do you apply pressure at the same time to prevent the Zerg getting to 5 bases? I understand what the "counter" is. But how do you do all those things and set up additional expansions, AND deny Zerg economy at the same time? The problem has never been the mutalisk itself. It's the complete map dominance you get from that style.
You dont get "complete map dominance" if the Protoss player doesn't lose his 3rd a bunch of times. If the Protoss can maintain his third even if Z gets a fourth, all P has to do is leave a couple HT, couple cannons at each mineral line and some back up stalkers and pressure with the rest of the army. At this point the goal is to contain Z to no more bases than you, and eventually mass muta will lose out to archon/storm. This style isn't used anymore for a number of reasons.
The counter means the mutas actually never get the dominance you saw that game, because they hit a few storms and have to retreat if the P has any multitasking ability whatsoever.
EDIT: Lol at absurd multitasking. All it took was minute map awareness and occasional looks to your mineral line with a high templar. One or two storms on a muta flock brings the flock down into orange/yellow.
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On January 12 2013 15:45 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 15:43 Wingblade wrote:On January 12 2013 15:40 Caihead wrote:On January 12 2013 15:39 Wingblade wrote:On January 12 2013 15:37 fire_brand wrote:On January 12 2013 15:34 Maesy wrote:On January 12 2013 15:33 Emzeeshady wrote:On January 12 2013 15:31 Havik_ wrote:I thought this mass muta garbage ended in 2011 garbage? Its awesome Awesomely uncounterable. It's easily counterable. Any ESF player will smash it. Trap was just way behind from the start of the game. And honestly Shine should win on 5 base 2 by just throwing units at his oppenent. The problem is how does Trap stop him from getting 5 bases, AND take a fourth, AND defend his probes, AND his tech against a mutalisk count like that and a bunch of spines at every base? No amount of blink stalkers can fight that much glaive worm bounce damage. The counter is storm upgrade, archons, and cannon / ht at each base. Trap was too behind to do that. So then how do you apply pressure at the same time to prevent the Zerg getting to 5 bases? I understand what the "counter" is. But how do you do all those things and set up additional expansions, AND deny Zerg economy at the same time? The problem has never been the mutalisk itself. It's the complete map dominance you get from that style. That's not how it happened. Zerg got ahead with full gas mining first before doing mutalisks. If the protoss was on even grounds he would have had the third running the whole time and storm researching or finishing by the time he sees the mutas. Zerg had map control even before the mutalisks. I don't know why I'm explaining this since Trap was too behind for any real viable option any ways. His third got sniped, his templar archives got sniped. If neither of those happened he could have still defended it.
I'm not even talking about this one game. You need insane APM in any game to do all the things listed, something a vast majority of players don't have. And Trap went colossi and already had one out by the time the mutas come out. So no, if a player tries to go colossi in any standard game and suddenly mutas show up you won't have storm researched or done by the time mutas are on the way.
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On January 12 2013 15:45 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 15:42 las91 wrote:On January 12 2013 15:40 Caihead wrote:On January 12 2013 15:39 Wingblade wrote:On January 12 2013 15:37 fire_brand wrote:On January 12 2013 15:34 Maesy wrote:On January 12 2013 15:33 Emzeeshady wrote:On January 12 2013 15:31 Havik_ wrote:I thought this mass muta garbage ended in 2011 garbage? Its awesome Awesomely uncounterable. It's easily counterable. Any ESF player will smash it. Trap was just way behind from the start of the game. And honestly Shine should win on 5 base 2 by just throwing units at his oppenent. The problem is how does Trap stop him from getting 5 bases, AND take a fourth, AND defend his probes, AND his tech against a mutalisk count like that and a bunch of spines at every base? No amount of blink stalkers can fight that much glaive worm bounce damage. The counter is storm upgrade, archons, and cannon / ht at each base. Trap was too behind to do that. Pretty much this. The style was figured out enough in mid 2011 so that all P has to do is cannon/ht and make sure to include archons + stalkers + storm. He got his archives and third sniped a few times and at that point it's all downhill. Shine could have made any unit en masse and won the game at that point, he just decided to make it look really weird with as many mutas as he could build. This is such a complete fallacy I don't even know what to say. Mutalisk styles were still the standard until Stephano came out with the roach max. Zergs transitioned to that because it was practically a free-win button when it first came out. Mutalisk styles never got "figured out" unless you had absurd multitasking. Phoenix range did nothing unless you went stargate every single game which made you vulnerable to other timings.
Two base mutalisk all in -> dies to immortal sentry stalker push if scouted. Three base mutalisk all in -> enough time to set up defenses. Stop pretending mutalisk all-ins like this were standard. They sure as hell weren't.
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On January 12 2013 15:48 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 15:45 Caihead wrote:On January 12 2013 15:43 Wingblade wrote:On January 12 2013 15:40 Caihead wrote:On January 12 2013 15:39 Wingblade wrote:On January 12 2013 15:37 fire_brand wrote:On January 12 2013 15:34 Maesy wrote:On January 12 2013 15:33 Emzeeshady wrote:On January 12 2013 15:31 Havik_ wrote:I thought this mass muta garbage ended in 2011 garbage? Its awesome Awesomely uncounterable. It's easily counterable. Any ESF player will smash it. Trap was just way behind from the start of the game. And honestly Shine should win on 5 base 2 by just throwing units at his oppenent. The problem is how does Trap stop him from getting 5 bases, AND take a fourth, AND defend his probes, AND his tech against a mutalisk count like that and a bunch of spines at every base? No amount of blink stalkers can fight that much glaive worm bounce damage. The counter is storm upgrade, archons, and cannon / ht at each base. Trap was too behind to do that. So then how do you apply pressure at the same time to prevent the Zerg getting to 5 bases? I understand what the "counter" is. But how do you do all those things and set up additional expansions, AND deny Zerg economy at the same time? The problem has never been the mutalisk itself. It's the complete map dominance you get from that style. That's not how it happened. Zerg got ahead with full gas mining first before doing mutalisks. If the protoss was on even grounds he would have had the third running the whole time and storm researching or finishing by the time he sees the mutas. Zerg had map control even before the mutalisks. I don't know why I'm explaining this since Trap was too behind for any real viable option any ways. His third got sniped, his templar archives got sniped. If neither of those happened he could have still defended it. I'm not even talking about this one game. You need insane APM in any game to do all the things listed, something a vast majority of players don't have. And Trap went colossi and already had one out by the time the mutas come out. So no, if a player tries to go colossi in any standard game and suddenly mutas show up you won't have storm researched or done by the time mutas are on the way.
-_- Are we really complaining about mutalisk all in's in PvZ. It dies to the current meta game of protoss. That's all that matters.
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On January 12 2013 15:48 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 15:45 Caihead wrote:On January 12 2013 15:43 Wingblade wrote:On January 12 2013 15:40 Caihead wrote:On January 12 2013 15:39 Wingblade wrote:On January 12 2013 15:37 fire_brand wrote:On January 12 2013 15:34 Maesy wrote:On January 12 2013 15:33 Emzeeshady wrote:On January 12 2013 15:31 Havik_ wrote:I thought this mass muta garbage ended in 2011 garbage? Its awesome Awesomely uncounterable. It's easily counterable. Any ESF player will smash it. Trap was just way behind from the start of the game. And honestly Shine should win on 5 base 2 by just throwing units at his oppenent. The problem is how does Trap stop him from getting 5 bases, AND take a fourth, AND defend his probes, AND his tech against a mutalisk count like that and a bunch of spines at every base? No amount of blink stalkers can fight that much glaive worm bounce damage. The counter is storm upgrade, archons, and cannon / ht at each base. Trap was too behind to do that. So then how do you apply pressure at the same time to prevent the Zerg getting to 5 bases? I understand what the "counter" is. But how do you do all those things and set up additional expansions, AND deny Zerg economy at the same time? The problem has never been the mutalisk itself. It's the complete map dominance you get from that style. That's not how it happened. Zerg got ahead with full gas mining first before doing mutalisks. If the protoss was on even grounds he would have had the third running the whole time and storm researching or finishing by the time he sees the mutas. Zerg had map control even before the mutalisks. I don't know why I'm explaining this since Trap was too behind for any real viable option any ways. His third got sniped, his templar archives got sniped. If neither of those happened he could have still defended it. I'm not even talking about this one game. You need insane APM in any game to do all the things listed, something a vast majority of players don't have. And Trap went colossi and already had one out by the time the mutas come out. So no, if a player tries to go colossi in any standard game and suddenly mutas show up you won't have storm researched or done by the time mutas are on the way.
This is why if you see a Spire and suspect muta play you don't go into Colossi. You skip that tech and go into storm and grab a third. This isn't a PvX thread and considering I had the APM to manage mutalisk styles as a mid-master player in 2011 the progamers have no excuse not to be able to handle the same style due to multitasking limitations, which also effect the actual mutalisking player as well.
EDIT: In the old way of FFE it was fairly standard to go Obs/Prism first if you were doing a robo style or Hallu if you were going TC, so yes you would scout the Spire unless it was hidden outside of a Z's base.
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On January 12 2013 15:46 las91 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 15:43 Wingblade wrote:On January 12 2013 15:40 Caihead wrote:On January 12 2013 15:39 Wingblade wrote:On January 12 2013 15:37 fire_brand wrote:On January 12 2013 15:34 Maesy wrote:On January 12 2013 15:33 Emzeeshady wrote:On January 12 2013 15:31 Havik_ wrote:I thought this mass muta garbage ended in 2011 garbage? Its awesome Awesomely uncounterable. It's easily counterable. Any ESF player will smash it. Trap was just way behind from the start of the game. And honestly Shine should win on 5 base 2 by just throwing units at his oppenent. The problem is how does Trap stop him from getting 5 bases, AND take a fourth, AND defend his probes, AND his tech against a mutalisk count like that and a bunch of spines at every base? No amount of blink stalkers can fight that much glaive worm bounce damage. The counter is storm upgrade, archons, and cannon / ht at each base. Trap was too behind to do that. So then how do you apply pressure at the same time to prevent the Zerg getting to 5 bases? I understand what the "counter" is. But how do you do all those things and set up additional expansions, AND deny Zerg economy at the same time? The problem has never been the mutalisk itself. It's the complete map dominance you get from that style. You dont get "complete map dominance" if the Protoss player doesn't lose his 3rd a bunch of times. If the Protoss can maintain his third even if Z gets a fourth, all P has to do is leave a couple HT, couple cannons at each mineral line and some back up stalkers and pressure with the rest of the army. At this point the goal is to contain Z to no more bases than you, and eventually mass muta will lose out to archon/storm. This style isn't used anymore for a number of reasons. The counter means the mutas actually never get the dominance you saw that game, because they hit a few storms and have to retreat if the P has any multitasking ability whatsoever. EDIT: Lol at absurd multitasking. All it took was minute map awareness and occasional looks to your mineral line with a high templar. One or two storms on a muta flock brings the flock down into orange/yellow.
So you just have storm instantly for the mutas? What if you go robo into colossus like Trap did, even in a standard FFE game with faster third etc. Oh crap 14 mutalisks are flying toward my base and I went colossus.
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On January 12 2013 15:52 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 15:46 las91 wrote:On January 12 2013 15:43 Wingblade wrote:On January 12 2013 15:40 Caihead wrote:On January 12 2013 15:39 Wingblade wrote:On January 12 2013 15:37 fire_brand wrote:On January 12 2013 15:34 Maesy wrote:On January 12 2013 15:33 Emzeeshady wrote:On January 12 2013 15:31 Havik_ wrote:I thought this mass muta garbage ended in 2011 garbage? Its awesome Awesomely uncounterable. It's easily counterable. Any ESF player will smash it. Trap was just way behind from the start of the game. And honestly Shine should win on 5 base 2 by just throwing units at his oppenent. The problem is how does Trap stop him from getting 5 bases, AND take a fourth, AND defend his probes, AND his tech against a mutalisk count like that and a bunch of spines at every base? No amount of blink stalkers can fight that much glaive worm bounce damage. The counter is storm upgrade, archons, and cannon / ht at each base. Trap was too behind to do that. So then how do you apply pressure at the same time to prevent the Zerg getting to 5 bases? I understand what the "counter" is. But how do you do all those things and set up additional expansions, AND deny Zerg economy at the same time? The problem has never been the mutalisk itself. It's the complete map dominance you get from that style. You dont get "complete map dominance" if the Protoss player doesn't lose his 3rd a bunch of times. If the Protoss can maintain his third even if Z gets a fourth, all P has to do is leave a couple HT, couple cannons at each mineral line and some back up stalkers and pressure with the rest of the army. At this point the goal is to contain Z to no more bases than you, and eventually mass muta will lose out to archon/storm. This style isn't used anymore for a number of reasons. The counter means the mutas actually never get the dominance you saw that game, because they hit a few storms and have to retreat if the P has any multitasking ability whatsoever. EDIT: Lol at absurd multitasking. All it took was minute map awareness and occasional looks to your mineral line with a high templar. One or two storms on a muta flock brings the flock down into orange/yellow. So you just have storm instantly for the mutas? What if you go robo into colossus like Trap did, even in a standard FFE game with faster third etc. Oh crap 14 mutalisks are flying toward my base and I went colossus.
Cannons and immediate transition out of Colossus into Blink. This is not an uncounterable style and Trap was behind. If Z is ahead and goes muta it's obviously much harder. There's no "oh crap 14 mutalisks" if you played against this style back when it was popular with maps in the pool like TDA and Metalopolis.
That is why in the days it was played as Caihead stated earlier it would get murdered by any sort of gateway + upgrade/tech allin off of two base which were designed to kill these spire styles.
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On January 12 2013 15:52 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 15:46 las91 wrote:On January 12 2013 15:43 Wingblade wrote:On January 12 2013 15:40 Caihead wrote:On January 12 2013 15:39 Wingblade wrote:On January 12 2013 15:37 fire_brand wrote:On January 12 2013 15:34 Maesy wrote:On January 12 2013 15:33 Emzeeshady wrote:On January 12 2013 15:31 Havik_ wrote:I thought this mass muta garbage ended in 2011 garbage? Its awesome Awesomely uncounterable. It's easily counterable. Any ESF player will smash it. Trap was just way behind from the start of the game. And honestly Shine should win on 5 base 2 by just throwing units at his oppenent. The problem is how does Trap stop him from getting 5 bases, AND take a fourth, AND defend his probes, AND his tech against a mutalisk count like that and a bunch of spines at every base? No amount of blink stalkers can fight that much glaive worm bounce damage. The counter is storm upgrade, archons, and cannon / ht at each base. Trap was too behind to do that. So then how do you apply pressure at the same time to prevent the Zerg getting to 5 bases? I understand what the "counter" is. But how do you do all those things and set up additional expansions, AND deny Zerg economy at the same time? The problem has never been the mutalisk itself. It's the complete map dominance you get from that style. You dont get "complete map dominance" if the Protoss player doesn't lose his 3rd a bunch of times. If the Protoss can maintain his third even if Z gets a fourth, all P has to do is leave a couple HT, couple cannons at each mineral line and some back up stalkers and pressure with the rest of the army. At this point the goal is to contain Z to no more bases than you, and eventually mass muta will lose out to archon/storm. This style isn't used anymore for a number of reasons. The counter means the mutas actually never get the dominance you saw that game, because they hit a few storms and have to retreat if the P has any multitasking ability whatsoever. EDIT: Lol at absurd multitasking. All it took was minute map awareness and occasional looks to your mineral line with a high templar. One or two storms on a muta flock brings the flock down into orange/yellow. So you just have storm instantly for the mutas? What if you go robo into colossus like Trap did, even in a standard FFE game with faster third etc. Oh crap 14 mutalisks are flying toward my base and I went colossus.
If you go robo you have observer and you can just go move across the map and kill him with standard immortal sentry stalker. If you go stargate you have phoenix and you can scout it early and count gas. Pure Mutalisks is an all-in strategy. Your ground upgrades are late as fuck and your tech is typically delayed beyond belief. It's easy as hell to spot if you see gases being taken. That was not a standard game.
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Yeah Roro, destroy everyone's anti-teams!!!
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mrbamboo
United States415 Posts
I don't know what people are arguing about. Trap was behind from the ling harrass forcing 2 nexus cancels. Shine was on like 18-22 drones for a LONG time just spamming speedlings. It paid off and Trap was behind on econ due double nexus cancel. He actually handled the initial 14 mutas fairly decently given the amount of stalkers he had. But was too behind on econ to keep up at that point as zerg can drone non-stop. Shine's muta control wasn't that great, If he didn't snipe templar archives then trap would've had 2-3 more HT with energy and storm finish several minutes earlier. If shine kept massing muta the way he did the storm/archon would've killed all of them. Not that trap would've win 100% as he'd still be behind on econ, but he could've hit a timing while zerg is transitioning out of mutas. Remember Zerg wasn't on infestor/hive tech for a long time so a counter attack with archon/ht/blink stalkers could out right kill the roach ling tech Shine was still on. But all of that hinges on getting storm and several HT about 2-3 minutes earlier, and Shine being stubborn to stay muta a few minutes too long. Anyhow, if the early ling aggression didn't put Trap so far behind he would've been able to handle the mutas a lot easier too. There's nothing OP about mass mutas.
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On January 12 2013 16:02 mrbamboo wrote:
I don't know what people are arguing about.
People see any strategy win convincingly by a landslide and immediately think it's OP arbitrarily. Nothing new.
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I hear a lot of anti-teams screaming in pain
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United States97276 Posts
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EPT
