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Starcraft 2 is a game where 2 players go in and MVP wins.
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On December 14 2012 00:12 `dunedain wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 23:44 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:59 Yello wrote:On December 13 2012 21:27 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:20 Yello wrote:On December 13 2012 21:17 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:03 JJH777 wrote:On December 13 2012 21:02 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 20:59 Confuse wrote:On December 13 2012 20:55 Gesarjack wrote:
Okay this is probably not a smart post to write but I couldn't help myself.
Notice how there are now 8 terrans, 5 zergs and 2 protosses in code S?
Remember how any thread for a tournament in which only 2 terrans qualified EVER went?
See how this one is going?
Terrans, take notice. Terran whining occurs for a reason. Terran is the race which most closely resembles humans. Of course terran players are cheering for themselves more passionately then zerg/protoss. ; ) That, and although subjective, sick terran players are often easier to understand then other races in my view. I suppose you're probably right but it doesn't really cheer me up: you just confirmed that I'd have to put up with this for the rest of my life as a non-terran =) Also it took a whole page for someone to understand what I said, wow. Can't really blame anyone your post didn't make any sense at all. So you're willing to argue that there's no difference in the reception of balance changes and overall metagame/balance whether you're talking to a terran or a non-terran audience? It doesn't make much of a difference. Every race has a lot of idiots who whine and whine all the time no matter the state of the game. You are just thinking of Terran whine to be worse because they were the most recent balance whines. Actually I'm thinking about it cause I remember how back when they were OP the terran defenders took time to explain to me how they won everything because their players were just better at the game than mine were. I also remember how it was hard to pipe up a single word against terran dominance without getting told that it's lame to balance-whine and that I should just shut up and wait for the patch. I also remember how suddenly they were patched and instantly started whining about protoss, and suddenly balance-whining was totally fine and WAT, how was I to say that protoss wasn't really op? (btw, protoss didn't get patched, and TvP is fine now, but what do I know) And now the zerg thing until today... I don't really expect it to change but as a non-terran it's really hard to enjoy reading through the history as a whole. It revolves so much around how terran is doing. You just have to see how much **** PvZ regularly takes, let alone in this thread. PvZ is a shitty matchup most of the time though. Not really enjoyable to watch ^.^ And Terran got nerfed a lot, Protoss got a few rather small buffs, so PvT didn't change all on itself. You are just as biased as most people are. Just to give an example: Zerg defenders say that Zergs just became more skilled and that the Infestor is fine and that Zerg can't win if the Infestor gets nerfed. Protoss defenders were whining really hard when Khaldaryan (or however you write that) Amulet got removed. Terrans were whining when Snipe got nerfed into the ground. As I said: we are all biased, you are biased as well, it's not as bad as you think it is. Why is PvZ not enjoyable to watch? Major argument is that it's cause it revolves around Z trying to get to lategame and P trying to prevent the Z from getting there. But that's not right, because that's also what happened in TvZ before the patch, and people weren't saying "TvZ is a shitty match-up", they were saying "TvZ became a shitty match-up". Suggesting that there was already something wrong with PvZ before zergs realized the way to never lose. So what was that problem? It bores people. Why ? Deathball vs deathball, too positional? So why don't you hate tanks? Hate timing attacks? There goes much of TvP... You can't really bring up a valid argument of WHY PvZ is shitty that doesn't imply the shittiness of other match-ups. Yet most people hate PvZ (I don't, if you couldn't tell). I can quote a lot of people saying that TvZ is the real match-up of Starcraft, the "true" match-up, whatever. But you could go a bit further: why is it that TvT gets good press compared to the other mirrors? Long game vs short game? Not really, we already stated that long game PvZ is boring, and both other mirrors do have late game. One engagement decides the whole thing? That's not necessarily true, and it can also happen very easily in TvT. What can I say? People just like terrans. And you're trying to show me that I'm biased like I didn't know it. Of course I'm biased. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be so annoyed by people telling me how the things I enjoy are shitty over and over again, I wouldn't be so annoyed by people saying that "the patch seems to have solved the problems of this game, now everything is fine I can enjoy SC2 again" when it's now 8-6-2 with 2 being the race I support. Are you being serious right now, or is this more idiot logic? Pray tell, where was all this random shit spewing when Creator won TSL 4 or WCS SK? Or maybe when Parting won BWC and WCG 2012? Or how about when Rain won both WCS Asia and OSL? Hmm? Oh.. not to mention Hero winning both Dreamhack Winter and NASL 4... Yea, sounds pretty much like idiot protoss fanboyism to me... No offense to other protosses out there, just this one guy giving your race a bad image. Oh, and I also forgot to mention that all the code S slots for next year's Season 1 hasn't even been decided yet and already you're bitching? Did you even see the player pool for the Blizzard cup this year? And still you talk shit about people favoring Terran? Hmm, maybe it's because Terran has been the most under represented race in tournaments for at least the last 6 months... It's quite the welcome pace from watching only ZvZ or PvZ (or PvP) in more than a Bo3 series. And still you bitch and moan... Disgraceful...
I don't get what you're trying to make me say.
Did I enjoy protosses winning events? Yeah, of course, I'm a protoss supporter. I don't think the game is unbalanced for protoss right now and I never said such a thing. It's annoying to me that there are only 2 protosses in there right now but that doesn't mean anything about balance of the game.
And no, people aren't happy because terrans were under represented before: I've met the same wall for long enough, and it was particularly brutal at the time of SC2 history when terran was winning everything. So there goes.
You don't have to be agressive about it though, it's not a problem that terrans are fan-favourite, it's just a fact. I hate that this fact means that I have to read through countless pages of how I have shit-taste in my watchings and so on, but you shouldn't.
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On December 14 2012 00:25 Gesarjack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 00:12 `dunedain wrote:On December 13 2012 23:44 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:59 Yello wrote:On December 13 2012 21:27 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:20 Yello wrote:On December 13 2012 21:17 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:03 JJH777 wrote:On December 13 2012 21:02 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 20:59 Confuse wrote:
[quote]
Terran whining occurs for a reason.
Terran is the race which most closely resembles humans. Of course terran players are cheering for themselves more passionately then zerg/protoss. ; ) That, and although subjective, sick terran players are often easier to understand then other races in my view. I suppose you're probably right but it doesn't really cheer me up: you just confirmed that I'd have to put up with this for the rest of my life as a non-terran =) Also it took a whole page for someone to understand what I said, wow. Can't really blame anyone your post didn't make any sense at all. So you're willing to argue that there's no difference in the reception of balance changes and overall metagame/balance whether you're talking to a terran or a non-terran audience? It doesn't make much of a difference. Every race has a lot of idiots who whine and whine all the time no matter the state of the game. You are just thinking of Terran whine to be worse because they were the most recent balance whines. Actually I'm thinking about it cause I remember how back when they were OP the terran defenders took time to explain to me how they won everything because their players were just better at the game than mine were. I also remember how it was hard to pipe up a single word against terran dominance without getting told that it's lame to balance-whine and that I should just shut up and wait for the patch. I also remember how suddenly they were patched and instantly started whining about protoss, and suddenly balance-whining was totally fine and WAT, how was I to say that protoss wasn't really op? (btw, protoss didn't get patched, and TvP is fine now, but what do I know) And now the zerg thing until today... I don't really expect it to change but as a non-terran it's really hard to enjoy reading through the history as a whole. It revolves so much around how terran is doing. You just have to see how much **** PvZ regularly takes, let alone in this thread. PvZ is a shitty matchup most of the time though. Not really enjoyable to watch ^.^ And Terran got nerfed a lot, Protoss got a few rather small buffs, so PvT didn't change all on itself. You are just as biased as most people are. Just to give an example: Zerg defenders say that Zergs just became more skilled and that the Infestor is fine and that Zerg can't win if the Infestor gets nerfed. Protoss defenders were whining really hard when Khaldaryan (or however you write that) Amulet got removed. Terrans were whining when Snipe got nerfed into the ground. As I said: we are all biased, you are biased as well, it's not as bad as you think it is. Why is PvZ not enjoyable to watch? Major argument is that it's cause it revolves around Z trying to get to lategame and P trying to prevent the Z from getting there. But that's not right, because that's also what happened in TvZ before the patch, and people weren't saying "TvZ is a shitty match-up", they were saying "TvZ became a shitty match-up". Suggesting that there was already something wrong with PvZ before zergs realized the way to never lose. So what was that problem? It bores people. Why ? Deathball vs deathball, too positional? So why don't you hate tanks? Hate timing attacks? There goes much of TvP... You can't really bring up a valid argument of WHY PvZ is shitty that doesn't imply the shittiness of other match-ups. Yet most people hate PvZ (I don't, if you couldn't tell). I can quote a lot of people saying that TvZ is the real match-up of Starcraft, the "true" match-up, whatever. But you could go a bit further: why is it that TvT gets good press compared to the other mirrors? Long game vs short game? Not really, we already stated that long game PvZ is boring, and both other mirrors do have late game. One engagement decides the whole thing? That's not necessarily true, and it can also happen very easily in TvT. What can I say? People just like terrans. And you're trying to show me that I'm biased like I didn't know it. Of course I'm biased. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be so annoyed by people telling me how the things I enjoy are shitty over and over again, I wouldn't be so annoyed by people saying that "the patch seems to have solved the problems of this game, now everything is fine I can enjoy SC2 again" when it's now 8-6-2 with 2 being the race I support. Are you being serious right now, or is this more idiot logic? Pray tell, where was all this random shit spewing when Creator won TSL 4 or WCS SK? Or maybe when Parting won BWC and WCG 2012? Or how about when Rain won both WCS Asia and OSL? Hmm? Oh.. not to mention Hero winning both Dreamhack Winter and NASL 4... Yea, sounds pretty much like idiot protoss fanboyism to me... No offense to other protosses out there, just this one guy giving your race a bad image. Oh, and I also forgot to mention that all the code S slots for next year's Season 1 hasn't even been decided yet and already you're bitching? Did you even see the player pool for the Blizzard cup this year? And still you talk shit about people favoring Terran? Hmm, maybe it's because Terran has been the most under represented race in tournaments for at least the last 6 months... It's quite the welcome pace from watching only ZvZ or PvZ (or PvP) in more than a Bo3 series. And still you bitch and moan... Disgraceful... I don't get what you're trying to make me say. Did I enjoy protosses winning events? Yeah, of course, I'm a protoss supporter. I don't think the game is unbalanced for protoss right now and I never said such a thing. It's annoying to me that there are only 2 protosses in there right now but that doesn't mean anything about balance of the game. And no, people aren't happy because terrans were under represented before: I've met the same wall for long enough, and it was particularly brutal at the time of SC2 history when terran was winning everything. So there goes. You don't have to be agressive about it though, it's not a problem that terrans are fan-favourite, it's just a fact. I hate that this fact means that I have to read through countless pages of how I have shit-taste in my watchings and so on, but you shouldn't.
Hah. Terrans are fan favorites? Why do you think people complaint about GomTvT. There is so much cheering for terrans now because a lot of events in the past month (WCG, WCS being there worse offenders) where all you saw was ZvZ, ZvP, PvZ. Not sure why you feel more people cheer for terrans since it is pretty much known that in the foreign community, there are more P and Z players overall.
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Fuck yeah Mvp!!!
Also BaBy is more and more awesome to watch.
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On December 14 2012 00:35 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 00:25 Gesarjack wrote:On December 14 2012 00:12 `dunedain wrote:On December 13 2012 23:44 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:59 Yello wrote:On December 13 2012 21:27 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:20 Yello wrote:On December 13 2012 21:17 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:03 JJH777 wrote:On December 13 2012 21:02 Gesarjack wrote:
[quote]
I suppose you're probably right but it doesn't really cheer me up: you just confirmed that I'd have to put up with this for the rest of my life as a non-terran =)
Also it took a whole page for someone to understand what I said, wow. Can't really blame anyone your post didn't make any sense at all. So you're willing to argue that there's no difference in the reception of balance changes and overall metagame/balance whether you're talking to a terran or a non-terran audience? It doesn't make much of a difference. Every race has a lot of idiots who whine and whine all the time no matter the state of the game. You are just thinking of Terran whine to be worse because they were the most recent balance whines. Actually I'm thinking about it cause I remember how back when they were OP the terran defenders took time to explain to me how they won everything because their players were just better at the game than mine were. I also remember how it was hard to pipe up a single word against terran dominance without getting told that it's lame to balance-whine and that I should just shut up and wait for the patch. I also remember how suddenly they were patched and instantly started whining about protoss, and suddenly balance-whining was totally fine and WAT, how was I to say that protoss wasn't really op? (btw, protoss didn't get patched, and TvP is fine now, but what do I know) And now the zerg thing until today... I don't really expect it to change but as a non-terran it's really hard to enjoy reading through the history as a whole. It revolves so much around how terran is doing. You just have to see how much **** PvZ regularly takes, let alone in this thread. PvZ is a shitty matchup most of the time though. Not really enjoyable to watch ^.^ And Terran got nerfed a lot, Protoss got a few rather small buffs, so PvT didn't change all on itself. You are just as biased as most people are. Just to give an example: Zerg defenders say that Zergs just became more skilled and that the Infestor is fine and that Zerg can't win if the Infestor gets nerfed. Protoss defenders were whining really hard when Khaldaryan (or however you write that) Amulet got removed. Terrans were whining when Snipe got nerfed into the ground. As I said: we are all biased, you are biased as well, it's not as bad as you think it is. Why is PvZ not enjoyable to watch? Major argument is that it's cause it revolves around Z trying to get to lategame and P trying to prevent the Z from getting there. But that's not right, because that's also what happened in TvZ before the patch, and people weren't saying "TvZ is a shitty match-up", they were saying "TvZ became a shitty match-up". Suggesting that there was already something wrong with PvZ before zergs realized the way to never lose. So what was that problem? It bores people. Why ? Deathball vs deathball, too positional? So why don't you hate tanks? Hate timing attacks? There goes much of TvP... You can't really bring up a valid argument of WHY PvZ is shitty that doesn't imply the shittiness of other match-ups. Yet most people hate PvZ (I don't, if you couldn't tell). I can quote a lot of people saying that TvZ is the real match-up of Starcraft, the "true" match-up, whatever. But you could go a bit further: why is it that TvT gets good press compared to the other mirrors? Long game vs short game? Not really, we already stated that long game PvZ is boring, and both other mirrors do have late game. One engagement decides the whole thing? That's not necessarily true, and it can also happen very easily in TvT. What can I say? People just like terrans. And you're trying to show me that I'm biased like I didn't know it. Of course I'm biased. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be so annoyed by people telling me how the things I enjoy are shitty over and over again, I wouldn't be so annoyed by people saying that "the patch seems to have solved the problems of this game, now everything is fine I can enjoy SC2 again" when it's now 8-6-2 with 2 being the race I support. Are you being serious right now, or is this more idiot logic? Pray tell, where was all this random shit spewing when Creator won TSL 4 or WCS SK? Or maybe when Parting won BWC and WCG 2012? Or how about when Rain won both WCS Asia and OSL? Hmm? Oh.. not to mention Hero winning both Dreamhack Winter and NASL 4... Yea, sounds pretty much like idiot protoss fanboyism to me... No offense to other protosses out there, just this one guy giving your race a bad image. Oh, and I also forgot to mention that all the code S slots for next year's Season 1 hasn't even been decided yet and already you're bitching? Did you even see the player pool for the Blizzard cup this year? And still you talk shit about people favoring Terran? Hmm, maybe it's because Terran has been the most under represented race in tournaments for at least the last 6 months... It's quite the welcome pace from watching only ZvZ or PvZ (or PvP) in more than a Bo3 series. And still you bitch and moan... Disgraceful... I don't get what you're trying to make me say. Did I enjoy protosses winning events? Yeah, of course, I'm a protoss supporter. I don't think the game is unbalanced for protoss right now and I never said such a thing. It's annoying to me that there are only 2 protosses in there right now but that doesn't mean anything about balance of the game. And no, people aren't happy because terrans were under represented before: I've met the same wall for long enough, and it was particularly brutal at the time of SC2 history when terran was winning everything. So there goes. You don't have to be agressive about it though, it's not a problem that terrans are fan-favourite, it's just a fact. I hate that this fact means that I have to read through countless pages of how I have shit-taste in my watchings and so on, but you shouldn't. Hah. Terrans are fan favorites? Why do you think people complaint about GomTvT. There is so much cheering for terrans now because a lot of events in the past month (WCG, WCS being there worse offenders) where all you saw was ZvZ, ZvP, PvZ. Not sure why you feel more people cheer for terrans since it is pretty much known that in the foreign community, there are more P and Z players overall.
GomTvT has its counterparts in GomPvP and GomZvZ. We have more recognition of GomTVT cause it was relayed by Tastosis, cause it's GomTV and not GomZV or GomPV, and also cause it stayed on for a lot longer. You can't really say that the terran mirror match-up is hated more than the two others, in fact I could argue that's it's hated way less (cf. Seed vs MC finals thread)
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On December 14 2012 00:25 Gesarjack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 00:12 `dunedain wrote:On December 13 2012 23:44 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:59 Yello wrote:On December 13 2012 21:27 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:20 Yello wrote:On December 13 2012 21:17 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:03 JJH777 wrote:On December 13 2012 21:02 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 20:59 Confuse wrote:
[quote]
Terran whining occurs for a reason.
Terran is the race which most closely resembles humans. Of course terran players are cheering for themselves more passionately then zerg/protoss. ; ) That, and although subjective, sick terran players are often easier to understand then other races in my view. I suppose you're probably right but it doesn't really cheer me up: you just confirmed that I'd have to put up with this for the rest of my life as a non-terran =) Also it took a whole page for someone to understand what I said, wow. Can't really blame anyone your post didn't make any sense at all. So you're willing to argue that there's no difference in the reception of balance changes and overall metagame/balance whether you're talking to a terran or a non-terran audience? It doesn't make much of a difference. Every race has a lot of idiots who whine and whine all the time no matter the state of the game. You are just thinking of Terran whine to be worse because they were the most recent balance whines. Actually I'm thinking about it cause I remember how back when they were OP the terran defenders took time to explain to me how they won everything because their players were just better at the game than mine were. I also remember how it was hard to pipe up a single word against terran dominance without getting told that it's lame to balance-whine and that I should just shut up and wait for the patch. I also remember how suddenly they were patched and instantly started whining about protoss, and suddenly balance-whining was totally fine and WAT, how was I to say that protoss wasn't really op? (btw, protoss didn't get patched, and TvP is fine now, but what do I know) And now the zerg thing until today... I don't really expect it to change but as a non-terran it's really hard to enjoy reading through the history as a whole. It revolves so much around how terran is doing. You just have to see how much **** PvZ regularly takes, let alone in this thread. PvZ is a shitty matchup most of the time though. Not really enjoyable to watch ^.^ And Terran got nerfed a lot, Protoss got a few rather small buffs, so PvT didn't change all on itself. You are just as biased as most people are. Just to give an example: Zerg defenders say that Zergs just became more skilled and that the Infestor is fine and that Zerg can't win if the Infestor gets nerfed. Protoss defenders were whining really hard when Khaldaryan (or however you write that) Amulet got removed. Terrans were whining when Snipe got nerfed into the ground. As I said: we are all biased, you are biased as well, it's not as bad as you think it is. Why is PvZ not enjoyable to watch? Major argument is that it's cause it revolves around Z trying to get to lategame and P trying to prevent the Z from getting there. But that's not right, because that's also what happened in TvZ before the patch, and people weren't saying "TvZ is a shitty match-up", they were saying "TvZ became a shitty match-up". Suggesting that there was already something wrong with PvZ before zergs realized the way to never lose. So what was that problem? It bores people. Why ? Deathball vs deathball, too positional? So why don't you hate tanks? Hate timing attacks? There goes much of TvP... You can't really bring up a valid argument of WHY PvZ is shitty that doesn't imply the shittiness of other match-ups. Yet most people hate PvZ (I don't, if you couldn't tell). I can quote a lot of people saying that TvZ is the real match-up of Starcraft, the "true" match-up, whatever. But you could go a bit further: why is it that TvT gets good press compared to the other mirrors? Long game vs short game? Not really, we already stated that long game PvZ is boring, and both other mirrors do have late game. One engagement decides the whole thing? That's not necessarily true, and it can also happen very easily in TvT. What can I say? People just like terrans. And you're trying to show me that I'm biased like I didn't know it. Of course I'm biased. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be so annoyed by people telling me how the things I enjoy are shitty over and over again, I wouldn't be so annoyed by people saying that "the patch seems to have solved the problems of this game, now everything is fine I can enjoy SC2 again" when it's now 8-6-2 with 2 being the race I support. Are you being serious right now, or is this more idiot logic? Pray tell, where was all this random shit spewing when Creator won TSL 4 or WCS SK? Or maybe when Parting won BWC and WCG 2012? Or how about when Rain won both WCS Asia and OSL? Hmm? Oh.. not to mention Hero winning both Dreamhack Winter and NASL 4... Yea, sounds pretty much like idiot protoss fanboyism to me... No offense to other protosses out there, just this one guy giving your race a bad image. Oh, and I also forgot to mention that all the code S slots for next year's Season 1 hasn't even been decided yet and already you're bitching? Did you even see the player pool for the Blizzard cup this year? And still you talk shit about people favoring Terran? Hmm, maybe it's because Terran has been the most under represented race in tournaments for at least the last 6 months... It's quite the welcome pace from watching only ZvZ or PvZ (or PvP) in more than a Bo3 series. And still you bitch and moan... Disgraceful... I don't get what you're trying to make me say. Did I enjoy protosses winning events? Yeah, of course, I'm a protoss supporter. I don't think the game is unbalanced for protoss right now and I never said such a thing. It's annoying to me that there are only 2 protosses in there right now but that doesn't mean anything about balance of the game. And no, people aren't happy because terrans were under represented before: I've met the same wall for long enough, and it was particularly brutal at the time of SC2 history when terran was winning everything. So there goes. You don't have to be agressive about it though, it's not a problem that terrans are fan-favourite, it's just a fact. I hate that this fact means that I have to read through countless pages of how I have shit-taste in my watchings and so on, but you shouldn't.
TvT and TvZ have been regarded as the best matchups in the game for well over a year. Right now, if I remember from a recent poll for "best matchups", it's TvT- TvZ - TvP.
TvT is the best matchup in the game and that's simply a fact. Playhem produced statistic of a huge sample size showing that TvT was the matchup where the better player, ie Pro vs Joe, won more than any other matchup-- it was somewhere around 90% where the pro only one in PvP 75% of the time.
Terran games are simply more exciting. Many people, including many pro gamers, say that the game was the worst it's ever been over the past few months due to Zerg. Recent results of the past major tournaments over the last 3 months have ZvT at 60%-- one of the most imbalanced matchups in the past 1.5 years.
ZvP is regarded as shit because it's literally the same thing every game. Protoss does 2 or 3 base all in. If not he loses to infestor broodlord. And in late game the spectator can't really see the micro like Terran. It just looks like a move vs a move. Also things like immortal sentry or infestor broodlord can have significantly worse players beating better players. The game even made TB quit casting WoL.
Also, comparing the game now to 2 years ago when Terran dominated is just stupid. Maps like Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant, and Xel Naga Caverns were still in the map pool. There was really no meta game. No one made infestors and Protoss 4 gated or 6 gated every other game.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On December 14 2012 00:44 Gesarjack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 00:35 vthree wrote:On December 14 2012 00:25 Gesarjack wrote:On December 14 2012 00:12 `dunedain wrote:On December 13 2012 23:44 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:59 Yello wrote:On December 13 2012 21:27 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:20 Yello wrote:On December 13 2012 21:17 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:03 JJH777 wrote:
[quote]
Can't really blame anyone your post didn't make any sense at all. So you're willing to argue that there's no difference in the reception of balance changes and overall metagame/balance whether you're talking to a terran or a non-terran audience? It doesn't make much of a difference. Every race has a lot of idiots who whine and whine all the time no matter the state of the game. You are just thinking of Terran whine to be worse because they were the most recent balance whines. Actually I'm thinking about it cause I remember how back when they were OP the terran defenders took time to explain to me how they won everything because their players were just better at the game than mine were. I also remember how it was hard to pipe up a single word against terran dominance without getting told that it's lame to balance-whine and that I should just shut up and wait for the patch. I also remember how suddenly they were patched and instantly started whining about protoss, and suddenly balance-whining was totally fine and WAT, how was I to say that protoss wasn't really op? (btw, protoss didn't get patched, and TvP is fine now, but what do I know) And now the zerg thing until today... I don't really expect it to change but as a non-terran it's really hard to enjoy reading through the history as a whole. It revolves so much around how terran is doing. You just have to see how much **** PvZ regularly takes, let alone in this thread. PvZ is a shitty matchup most of the time though. Not really enjoyable to watch ^.^ And Terran got nerfed a lot, Protoss got a few rather small buffs, so PvT didn't change all on itself. You are just as biased as most people are. Just to give an example: Zerg defenders say that Zergs just became more skilled and that the Infestor is fine and that Zerg can't win if the Infestor gets nerfed. Protoss defenders were whining really hard when Khaldaryan (or however you write that) Amulet got removed. Terrans were whining when Snipe got nerfed into the ground. As I said: we are all biased, you are biased as well, it's not as bad as you think it is. Why is PvZ not enjoyable to watch? Major argument is that it's cause it revolves around Z trying to get to lategame and P trying to prevent the Z from getting there. But that's not right, because that's also what happened in TvZ before the patch, and people weren't saying "TvZ is a shitty match-up", they were saying "TvZ became a shitty match-up". Suggesting that there was already something wrong with PvZ before zergs realized the way to never lose. So what was that problem? It bores people. Why ? Deathball vs deathball, too positional? So why don't you hate tanks? Hate timing attacks? There goes much of TvP... You can't really bring up a valid argument of WHY PvZ is shitty that doesn't imply the shittiness of other match-ups. Yet most people hate PvZ (I don't, if you couldn't tell). I can quote a lot of people saying that TvZ is the real match-up of Starcraft, the "true" match-up, whatever. But you could go a bit further: why is it that TvT gets good press compared to the other mirrors? Long game vs short game? Not really, we already stated that long game PvZ is boring, and both other mirrors do have late game. One engagement decides the whole thing? That's not necessarily true, and it can also happen very easily in TvT. What can I say? People just like terrans. And you're trying to show me that I'm biased like I didn't know it. Of course I'm biased. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be so annoyed by people telling me how the things I enjoy are shitty over and over again, I wouldn't be so annoyed by people saying that "the patch seems to have solved the problems of this game, now everything is fine I can enjoy SC2 again" when it's now 8-6-2 with 2 being the race I support. Are you being serious right now, or is this more idiot logic? Pray tell, where was all this random shit spewing when Creator won TSL 4 or WCS SK? Or maybe when Parting won BWC and WCG 2012? Or how about when Rain won both WCS Asia and OSL? Hmm? Oh.. not to mention Hero winning both Dreamhack Winter and NASL 4... Yea, sounds pretty much like idiot protoss fanboyism to me... No offense to other protosses out there, just this one guy giving your race a bad image. Oh, and I also forgot to mention that all the code S slots for next year's Season 1 hasn't even been decided yet and already you're bitching? Did you even see the player pool for the Blizzard cup this year? And still you talk shit about people favoring Terran? Hmm, maybe it's because Terran has been the most under represented race in tournaments for at least the last 6 months... It's quite the welcome pace from watching only ZvZ or PvZ (or PvP) in more than a Bo3 series. And still you bitch and moan... Disgraceful... I don't get what you're trying to make me say. Did I enjoy protosses winning events? Yeah, of course, I'm a protoss supporter. I don't think the game is unbalanced for protoss right now and I never said such a thing. It's annoying to me that there are only 2 protosses in there right now but that doesn't mean anything about balance of the game. And no, people aren't happy because terrans were under represented before: I've met the same wall for long enough, and it was particularly brutal at the time of SC2 history when terran was winning everything. So there goes. You don't have to be agressive about it though, it's not a problem that terrans are fan-favourite, it's just a fact. I hate that this fact means that I have to read through countless pages of how I have shit-taste in my watchings and so on, but you shouldn't. Hah. Terrans are fan favorites? Why do you think people complaint about GomTvT. There is so much cheering for terrans now because a lot of events in the past month (WCG, WCS being there worse offenders) where all you saw was ZvZ, ZvP, PvZ. Not sure why you feel more people cheer for terrans since it is pretty much known that in the foreign community, there are more P and Z players overall. GomTvT has its counterparts in GomPvP and GomZvZ. We have more recognition of GomTVT cause it was relayed by Tastosis, cause it's GomTV and not GomZV or GomPV, and also cause it stayed on for a lot longer. You can't really say that the terran mirror match-up is hated more than the two others, in fact I could argue that's it's hated way less (cf. Seed vs MC finals thread)
People are retrospectively giving TvT love, actually. Right now a lot of people really like it, but no one used to like it back when Mvp was winning everything. Most people like the T matchups because most of the games are different enough to remain interesting.
There was never really any season with GomPvP or ZvZ. Terran has always been the most represented race in Ro32 for most of GSL. However if you look at Ro8 up, as well as most foreign and international tournaments, the argument is that Terran is under represented.
Also consider the number of race success stories this year:
Zerg: Stephano, Life, Sniper, Leenock, DRG (at the start of the year), maybe even Scarlett lol
Protoss: Parting, HerO, Rain, Creator
Terran: MKP, Taeja, Mvp
I might be missing some for Z and P. But that's about it for T. When you look at it not a lot of Terran heroes this year so of course people are going to rally behind them. Just as people rallied behind MC when Protoss sucked despite his playstyle which was often predictable and not all that fun to watch.
Not saying terran whine is justified though, but I am explaining why it exists
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On December 13 2012 23:25 decado90 wrote:
I don't even know how MVP does it anymore. I watch his games and I don't feel like I'm watching the one of the best mechanical Terrans in the world, hell I don't even know who could get that title now considering how many Terrans have fallen off. A Kespa Terran maybe?
Yet he still continues to win....
I think Mvp has something many players lack. He has incredible game sense and seem to exactly know when he can capitalize on other player mistakes. It is like he has everyone's view turned on... Often times I see him going for a push I don't think will work, even though I have everyone's view but he still manages to win with a couple of units left (like his last round of Code A, the game vs. protoss player on Cloud Kingdom. It looks like luck, but no one can be lucky so many times...
I guess that is the reason he still wins even though he probably trains half as much as other Code S/A players due to his condition...
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Polt, Baby and MVP winning, games highly recommanded. Is it real life ? Love it !
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Glad to see MVP getting fan favorite votes. Game Genie Terran gogogo!
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Polt and mvp back in code s and all was right with the world of sc2 again. Someone worth cheering for. Gogo woo!
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On December 14 2012 00:45 decado90 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 00:25 Gesarjack wrote:On December 14 2012 00:12 `dunedain wrote:On December 13 2012 23:44 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:59 Yello wrote:On December 13 2012 21:27 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:20 Yello wrote:On December 13 2012 21:17 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:03 JJH777 wrote:On December 13 2012 21:02 Gesarjack wrote:
[quote]
I suppose you're probably right but it doesn't really cheer me up: you just confirmed that I'd have to put up with this for the rest of my life as a non-terran =)
Also it took a whole page for someone to understand what I said, wow. Can't really blame anyone your post didn't make any sense at all. So you're willing to argue that there's no difference in the reception of balance changes and overall metagame/balance whether you're talking to a terran or a non-terran audience? It doesn't make much of a difference. Every race has a lot of idiots who whine and whine all the time no matter the state of the game. You are just thinking of Terran whine to be worse because they were the most recent balance whines. Actually I'm thinking about it cause I remember how back when they were OP the terran defenders took time to explain to me how they won everything because their players were just better at the game than mine were. I also remember how it was hard to pipe up a single word against terran dominance without getting told that it's lame to balance-whine and that I should just shut up and wait for the patch. I also remember how suddenly they were patched and instantly started whining about protoss, and suddenly balance-whining was totally fine and WAT, how was I to say that protoss wasn't really op? (btw, protoss didn't get patched, and TvP is fine now, but what do I know) And now the zerg thing until today... I don't really expect it to change but as a non-terran it's really hard to enjoy reading through the history as a whole. It revolves so much around how terran is doing. You just have to see how much **** PvZ regularly takes, let alone in this thread. PvZ is a shitty matchup most of the time though. Not really enjoyable to watch ^.^ And Terran got nerfed a lot, Protoss got a few rather small buffs, so PvT didn't change all on itself. You are just as biased as most people are. Just to give an example: Zerg defenders say that Zergs just became more skilled and that the Infestor is fine and that Zerg can't win if the Infestor gets nerfed. Protoss defenders were whining really hard when Khaldaryan (or however you write that) Amulet got removed. Terrans were whining when Snipe got nerfed into the ground. As I said: we are all biased, you are biased as well, it's not as bad as you think it is. Why is PvZ not enjoyable to watch? Major argument is that it's cause it revolves around Z trying to get to lategame and P trying to prevent the Z from getting there. But that's not right, because that's also what happened in TvZ before the patch, and people weren't saying "TvZ is a shitty match-up", they were saying "TvZ became a shitty match-up". Suggesting that there was already something wrong with PvZ before zergs realized the way to never lose. So what was that problem? It bores people. Why ? Deathball vs deathball, too positional? So why don't you hate tanks? Hate timing attacks? There goes much of TvP... You can't really bring up a valid argument of WHY PvZ is shitty that doesn't imply the shittiness of other match-ups. Yet most people hate PvZ (I don't, if you couldn't tell). I can quote a lot of people saying that TvZ is the real match-up of Starcraft, the "true" match-up, whatever. But you could go a bit further: why is it that TvT gets good press compared to the other mirrors? Long game vs short game? Not really, we already stated that long game PvZ is boring, and both other mirrors do have late game. One engagement decides the whole thing? That's not necessarily true, and it can also happen very easily in TvT. What can I say? People just like terrans. And you're trying to show me that I'm biased like I didn't know it. Of course I'm biased. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be so annoyed by people telling me how the things I enjoy are shitty over and over again, I wouldn't be so annoyed by people saying that "the patch seems to have solved the problems of this game, now everything is fine I can enjoy SC2 again" when it's now 8-6-2 with 2 being the race I support. Are you being serious right now, or is this more idiot logic? Pray tell, where was all this random shit spewing when Creator won TSL 4 or WCS SK? Or maybe when Parting won BWC and WCG 2012? Or how about when Rain won both WCS Asia and OSL? Hmm? Oh.. not to mention Hero winning both Dreamhack Winter and NASL 4... Yea, sounds pretty much like idiot protoss fanboyism to me... No offense to other protosses out there, just this one guy giving your race a bad image. Oh, and I also forgot to mention that all the code S slots for next year's Season 1 hasn't even been decided yet and already you're bitching? Did you even see the player pool for the Blizzard cup this year? And still you talk shit about people favoring Terran? Hmm, maybe it's because Terran has been the most under represented race in tournaments for at least the last 6 months... It's quite the welcome pace from watching only ZvZ or PvZ (or PvP) in more than a Bo3 series. And still you bitch and moan... Disgraceful... I don't get what you're trying to make me say. Did I enjoy protosses winning events? Yeah, of course, I'm a protoss supporter. I don't think the game is unbalanced for protoss right now and I never said such a thing. It's annoying to me that there are only 2 protosses in there right now but that doesn't mean anything about balance of the game. And no, people aren't happy because terrans were under represented before: I've met the same wall for long enough, and it was particularly brutal at the time of SC2 history when terran was winning everything. So there goes. You don't have to be agressive about it though, it's not a problem that terrans are fan-favourite, it's just a fact. I hate that this fact means that I have to read through countless pages of how I have shit-taste in my watchings and so on, but you shouldn't. TvT and TvZ have been regarded as the best matchups in the game for well over a year. Right now, if I remember from a recent poll for "best matchups", it's TvT- TvZ - TvP. TvT is the best matchup in the game and that's simply a fact. Playhem produced statistic of a huge sample size showing that TvT was the matchup where the better player, ie Pro vs Joe, won more than any other matchup-- it was somewhere around 90% where the pro only one in PvP 75% of the time. Terran games are simply more exciting. Many people, including many pro gamers, say that the game was the worst it's ever been over the past few months due to Zerg. Recent results of the past major tournaments over the last 3 months have ZvT at 60%-- one of the most imbalanced matchups in the past 1.5 years. ZvP is regarded as shit because it's literally the same thing every game. Protoss does 2 or 3 base all in. If not he loses to infestor broodlord. And in late game the spectator can't really see the micro like Terran. It just looks like a move vs a move. Also things like immortal sentry or infestor broodlord can have significantly worse players beating better players. The game even made TB quit casting WoL. Also, comparing the game now to 2 years ago when Terran dominated is just stupid. Maps like Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant, and Xel Naga Caverns were still in the map pool. There was really no meta game. No one made infestors and Protoss 4 gated or 6 gated every other game.
Okay, so you're agreeing with me that terran is a fan favourite, except you're adding the notion that it should be this way based on two things:
- Pro beats random in TvT, which will be a point of contention because of the bonjwa phenomenon: I find it worse from an audience PoV because it decreases the element of surprise (=> generally people love to root for the underdog), but a lot of people seem to enjoy seeing the same person win lots and lots of games (=> bonjwa). I see where you're going with it but I would still disagree that it's enough to assert "best match-up" like you're trying to.
- excitement provoked by the games, which is completely subjective.
I also would emphasize the difference between
"Well there's a problem with ZvT, we should find ways to patch it to make it watchable", and
"Well there's a problem with ZvP, zomg this is a shitty match-up, let's quit watching this game"
Which is basically what you are saying yourself.
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On December 14 2012 01:56 Gesarjack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 00:45 decado90 wrote:On December 14 2012 00:25 Gesarjack wrote:On December 14 2012 00:12 `dunedain wrote:On December 13 2012 23:44 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:59 Yello wrote:On December 13 2012 21:27 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:20 Yello wrote:On December 13 2012 21:17 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:03 JJH777 wrote:
[quote]
Can't really blame anyone your post didn't make any sense at all. So you're willing to argue that there's no difference in the reception of balance changes and overall metagame/balance whether you're talking to a terran or a non-terran audience? It doesn't make much of a difference. Every race has a lot of idiots who whine and whine all the time no matter the state of the game. You are just thinking of Terran whine to be worse because they were the most recent balance whines. Actually I'm thinking about it cause I remember how back when they were OP the terran defenders took time to explain to me how they won everything because their players were just better at the game than mine were. I also remember how it was hard to pipe up a single word against terran dominance without getting told that it's lame to balance-whine and that I should just shut up and wait for the patch. I also remember how suddenly they were patched and instantly started whining about protoss, and suddenly balance-whining was totally fine and WAT, how was I to say that protoss wasn't really op? (btw, protoss didn't get patched, and TvP is fine now, but what do I know) And now the zerg thing until today... I don't really expect it to change but as a non-terran it's really hard to enjoy reading through the history as a whole. It revolves so much around how terran is doing. You just have to see how much **** PvZ regularly takes, let alone in this thread. PvZ is a shitty matchup most of the time though. Not really enjoyable to watch ^.^ And Terran got nerfed a lot, Protoss got a few rather small buffs, so PvT didn't change all on itself. You are just as biased as most people are. Just to give an example: Zerg defenders say that Zergs just became more skilled and that the Infestor is fine and that Zerg can't win if the Infestor gets nerfed. Protoss defenders were whining really hard when Khaldaryan (or however you write that) Amulet got removed. Terrans were whining when Snipe got nerfed into the ground. As I said: we are all biased, you are biased as well, it's not as bad as you think it is. Why is PvZ not enjoyable to watch? Major argument is that it's cause it revolves around Z trying to get to lategame and P trying to prevent the Z from getting there. But that's not right, because that's also what happened in TvZ before the patch, and people weren't saying "TvZ is a shitty match-up", they were saying "TvZ became a shitty match-up". Suggesting that there was already something wrong with PvZ before zergs realized the way to never lose. So what was that problem? It bores people. Why ? Deathball vs deathball, too positional? So why don't you hate tanks? Hate timing attacks? There goes much of TvP... You can't really bring up a valid argument of WHY PvZ is shitty that doesn't imply the shittiness of other match-ups. Yet most people hate PvZ (I don't, if you couldn't tell). I can quote a lot of people saying that TvZ is the real match-up of Starcraft, the "true" match-up, whatever. But you could go a bit further: why is it that TvT gets good press compared to the other mirrors? Long game vs short game? Not really, we already stated that long game PvZ is boring, and both other mirrors do have late game. One engagement decides the whole thing? That's not necessarily true, and it can also happen very easily in TvT. What can I say? People just like terrans. And you're trying to show me that I'm biased like I didn't know it. Of course I'm biased. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be so annoyed by people telling me how the things I enjoy are shitty over and over again, I wouldn't be so annoyed by people saying that "the patch seems to have solved the problems of this game, now everything is fine I can enjoy SC2 again" when it's now 8-6-2 with 2 being the race I support. Are you being serious right now, or is this more idiot logic? Pray tell, where was all this random shit spewing when Creator won TSL 4 or WCS SK? Or maybe when Parting won BWC and WCG 2012? Or how about when Rain won both WCS Asia and OSL? Hmm? Oh.. not to mention Hero winning both Dreamhack Winter and NASL 4... Yea, sounds pretty much like idiot protoss fanboyism to me... No offense to other protosses out there, just this one guy giving your race a bad image. Oh, and I also forgot to mention that all the code S slots for next year's Season 1 hasn't even been decided yet and already you're bitching? Did you even see the player pool for the Blizzard cup this year? And still you talk shit about people favoring Terran? Hmm, maybe it's because Terran has been the most under represented race in tournaments for at least the last 6 months... It's quite the welcome pace from watching only ZvZ or PvZ (or PvP) in more than a Bo3 series. And still you bitch and moan... Disgraceful... I don't get what you're trying to make me say. Did I enjoy protosses winning events? Yeah, of course, I'm a protoss supporter. I don't think the game is unbalanced for protoss right now and I never said such a thing. It's annoying to me that there are only 2 protosses in there right now but that doesn't mean anything about balance of the game. And no, people aren't happy because terrans were under represented before: I've met the same wall for long enough, and it was particularly brutal at the time of SC2 history when terran was winning everything. So there goes. You don't have to be agressive about it though, it's not a problem that terrans are fan-favourite, it's just a fact. I hate that this fact means that I have to read through countless pages of how I have shit-taste in my watchings and so on, but you shouldn't. TvT and TvZ have been regarded as the best matchups in the game for well over a year. Right now, if I remember from a recent poll for "best matchups", it's TvT- TvZ - TvP. TvT is the best matchup in the game and that's simply a fact. Playhem produced statistic of a huge sample size showing that TvT was the matchup where the better player, ie Pro vs Joe, won more than any other matchup-- it was somewhere around 90% where the pro only one in PvP 75% of the time. Terran games are simply more exciting. Many people, including many pro gamers, say that the game was the worst it's ever been over the past few months due to Zerg. Recent results of the past major tournaments over the last 3 months have ZvT at 60%-- one of the most imbalanced matchups in the past 1.5 years. ZvP is regarded as shit because it's literally the same thing every game. Protoss does 2 or 3 base all in. If not he loses to infestor broodlord. And in late game the spectator can't really see the micro like Terran. It just looks like a move vs a move. Also things like immortal sentry or infestor broodlord can have significantly worse players beating better players. The game even made TB quit casting WoL. Also, comparing the game now to 2 years ago when Terran dominated is just stupid. Maps like Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant, and Xel Naga Caverns were still in the map pool. There was really no meta game. No one made infestors and Protoss 4 gated or 6 gated every other game. Okay, so you're agreeing with me that terran is a fan favourite, except you're adding the notion that it should be this way based on two things: - Pro beats random in TvT, which will be a point of contention because of the bonjwa phenomenon: I find it worse from an audience PoV because it decreases the element of surprise (=> generally people love to root for the underdog), but a lot of people seem to enjoy seeing the same person win lots and lots of games (=> bonjwa). I see where you're going with it but I would still disagree that it's enough to assert "best match-up" like you're trying to. - excitement provoked by the games, which is completely subjective. I also would emphasize the difference between "Well there's a problem with ZvT, we should find ways to patch it to make it watchable", and "Well there's a problem with ZvP, zomg this is a shitty match-up, let's quit watching this game" Which is basically what you are saying yourself.
Although you can argue that excitement provoked by the games is completely subjective. But most people enjoy action pack games with action all over the map compare with passive game ending in 10 seconds from lasers wars (PvP). Subjective? Technically. Does it matter?
And if you think the changes did not have Protoss in mind?(which is what you are complaining that they aren't 'fixing' PvZ). The fungal nerf helps both T and P since tank and colossi can pick of infestors easier. But it probably helps T more. However, the egg nerf made them killable with 1 storm which is very helpful for Ps. I think infested terrans was a bigger issue than fungals were in late game PvZ.
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On December 14 2012 02:09 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 01:56 Gesarjack wrote:On December 14 2012 00:45 decado90 wrote:On December 14 2012 00:25 Gesarjack wrote:On December 14 2012 00:12 `dunedain wrote:On December 13 2012 23:44 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:59 Yello wrote:On December 13 2012 21:27 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:20 Yello wrote:On December 13 2012 21:17 Gesarjack wrote:
[quote]
So you're willing to argue that there's no difference in the reception of balance changes and overall metagame/balance whether you're talking to a terran or a non-terran audience? It doesn't make much of a difference. Every race has a lot of idiots who whine and whine all the time no matter the state of the game. You are just thinking of Terran whine to be worse because they were the most recent balance whines. Actually I'm thinking about it cause I remember how back when they were OP the terran defenders took time to explain to me how they won everything because their players were just better at the game than mine were. I also remember how it was hard to pipe up a single word against terran dominance without getting told that it's lame to balance-whine and that I should just shut up and wait for the patch. I also remember how suddenly they were patched and instantly started whining about protoss, and suddenly balance-whining was totally fine and WAT, how was I to say that protoss wasn't really op? (btw, protoss didn't get patched, and TvP is fine now, but what do I know) And now the zerg thing until today... I don't really expect it to change but as a non-terran it's really hard to enjoy reading through the history as a whole. It revolves so much around how terran is doing. You just have to see how much **** PvZ regularly takes, let alone in this thread. PvZ is a shitty matchup most of the time though. Not really enjoyable to watch ^.^ And Terran got nerfed a lot, Protoss got a few rather small buffs, so PvT didn't change all on itself. You are just as biased as most people are. Just to give an example: Zerg defenders say that Zergs just became more skilled and that the Infestor is fine and that Zerg can't win if the Infestor gets nerfed. Protoss defenders were whining really hard when Khaldaryan (or however you write that) Amulet got removed. Terrans were whining when Snipe got nerfed into the ground. As I said: we are all biased, you are biased as well, it's not as bad as you think it is. Why is PvZ not enjoyable to watch? Major argument is that it's cause it revolves around Z trying to get to lategame and P trying to prevent the Z from getting there. But that's not right, because that's also what happened in TvZ before the patch, and people weren't saying "TvZ is a shitty match-up", they were saying "TvZ became a shitty match-up". Suggesting that there was already something wrong with PvZ before zergs realized the way to never lose. So what was that problem? It bores people. Why ? Deathball vs deathball, too positional? So why don't you hate tanks? Hate timing attacks? There goes much of TvP... You can't really bring up a valid argument of WHY PvZ is shitty that doesn't imply the shittiness of other match-ups. Yet most people hate PvZ (I don't, if you couldn't tell). I can quote a lot of people saying that TvZ is the real match-up of Starcraft, the "true" match-up, whatever. But you could go a bit further: why is it that TvT gets good press compared to the other mirrors? Long game vs short game? Not really, we already stated that long game PvZ is boring, and both other mirrors do have late game. One engagement decides the whole thing? That's not necessarily true, and it can also happen very easily in TvT. What can I say? People just like terrans. And you're trying to show me that I'm biased like I didn't know it. Of course I'm biased. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be so annoyed by people telling me how the things I enjoy are shitty over and over again, I wouldn't be so annoyed by people saying that "the patch seems to have solved the problems of this game, now everything is fine I can enjoy SC2 again" when it's now 8-6-2 with 2 being the race I support. Are you being serious right now, or is this more idiot logic? Pray tell, where was all this random shit spewing when Creator won TSL 4 or WCS SK? Or maybe when Parting won BWC and WCG 2012? Or how about when Rain won both WCS Asia and OSL? Hmm? Oh.. not to mention Hero winning both Dreamhack Winter and NASL 4... Yea, sounds pretty much like idiot protoss fanboyism to me... No offense to other protosses out there, just this one guy giving your race a bad image. Oh, and I also forgot to mention that all the code S slots for next year's Season 1 hasn't even been decided yet and already you're bitching? Did you even see the player pool for the Blizzard cup this year? And still you talk shit about people favoring Terran? Hmm, maybe it's because Terran has been the most under represented race in tournaments for at least the last 6 months... It's quite the welcome pace from watching only ZvZ or PvZ (or PvP) in more than a Bo3 series. And still you bitch and moan... Disgraceful... I don't get what you're trying to make me say. Did I enjoy protosses winning events? Yeah, of course, I'm a protoss supporter. I don't think the game is unbalanced for protoss right now and I never said such a thing. It's annoying to me that there are only 2 protosses in there right now but that doesn't mean anything about balance of the game. And no, people aren't happy because terrans were under represented before: I've met the same wall for long enough, and it was particularly brutal at the time of SC2 history when terran was winning everything. So there goes. You don't have to be agressive about it though, it's not a problem that terrans are fan-favourite, it's just a fact. I hate that this fact means that I have to read through countless pages of how I have shit-taste in my watchings and so on, but you shouldn't. TvT and TvZ have been regarded as the best matchups in the game for well over a year. Right now, if I remember from a recent poll for "best matchups", it's TvT- TvZ - TvP. TvT is the best matchup in the game and that's simply a fact. Playhem produced statistic of a huge sample size showing that TvT was the matchup where the better player, ie Pro vs Joe, won more than any other matchup-- it was somewhere around 90% where the pro only one in PvP 75% of the time. Terran games are simply more exciting. Many people, including many pro gamers, say that the game was the worst it's ever been over the past few months due to Zerg. Recent results of the past major tournaments over the last 3 months have ZvT at 60%-- one of the most imbalanced matchups in the past 1.5 years. ZvP is regarded as shit because it's literally the same thing every game. Protoss does 2 or 3 base all in. If not he loses to infestor broodlord. And in late game the spectator can't really see the micro like Terran. It just looks like a move vs a move. Also things like immortal sentry or infestor broodlord can have significantly worse players beating better players. The game even made TB quit casting WoL. Also, comparing the game now to 2 years ago when Terran dominated is just stupid. Maps like Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant, and Xel Naga Caverns were still in the map pool. There was really no meta game. No one made infestors and Protoss 4 gated or 6 gated every other game. Okay, so you're agreeing with me that terran is a fan favourite, except you're adding the notion that it should be this way based on two things: - Pro beats random in TvT, which will be a point of contention because of the bonjwa phenomenon: I find it worse from an audience PoV because it decreases the element of surprise (=> generally people love to root for the underdog), but a lot of people seem to enjoy seeing the same person win lots and lots of games (=> bonjwa). I see where you're going with it but I would still disagree that it's enough to assert "best match-up" like you're trying to. - excitement provoked by the games, which is completely subjective. I also would emphasize the difference between "Well there's a problem with ZvT, we should find ways to patch it to make it watchable", and "Well there's a problem with ZvP, zomg this is a shitty match-up, let's quit watching this game" Which is basically what you are saying yourself. Although you can argue that excitement provoked by the games is completely subjective. But most people enjoy action pack games with action all over the map compare with passive game ending in 10 seconds from lasers wars (PvP). Subjective? Technically. Does it matter? And if you think the changes did not have Protoss in mind?(which is what you are complaining that they aren't 'fixing' PvZ). The fungal nerf helps both T and P since tank and colossi can pick of infestors easier. But it probably helps T more. However, the egg nerf made them killable with 1 storm which is very helpful for Ps. I think infested terrans was a bigger issue than fungals were in late game PvZ.
Funny how you went from defending that terran isn't the fan-favourite race to "fans are right to enjoy terran match-ups more than others cause they have more action in them."
And yeah of course the patch will help PvZ. I think we'll have more late-game, more interesting games, a lot overall better play. Pretty much the same as it will help TvZ. I just don't think people will care.
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I'm so happy the King is back ;;
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Baby vs Symbol
=>
mind = blown
TvZ is on the fast track to being an awesome match-up to watch yet again.
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On December 14 2012 00:13 awwnuts07 wrote:
Starcraft 2 is a game where 2 players go in and MVP wins.
Unless it's the game of Life.
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On December 14 2012 02:25 Gesarjack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 02:09 vthree wrote:On December 14 2012 01:56 Gesarjack wrote:On December 14 2012 00:45 decado90 wrote:On December 14 2012 00:25 Gesarjack wrote:On December 14 2012 00:12 `dunedain wrote:On December 13 2012 23:44 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:59 Yello wrote:On December 13 2012 21:27 Gesarjack wrote:On December 13 2012 21:20 Yello wrote:
[quote]
It doesn't make much of a difference. Every race has a lot of idiots who whine and whine all the time no matter the state of the game.
You are just thinking of Terran whine to be worse because they were the most recent balance whines. Actually I'm thinking about it cause I remember how back when they were OP the terran defenders took time to explain to me how they won everything because their players were just better at the game than mine were. I also remember how it was hard to pipe up a single word against terran dominance without getting told that it's lame to balance-whine and that I should just shut up and wait for the patch. I also remember how suddenly they were patched and instantly started whining about protoss, and suddenly balance-whining was totally fine and WAT, how was I to say that protoss wasn't really op? (btw, protoss didn't get patched, and TvP is fine now, but what do I know) And now the zerg thing until today... I don't really expect it to change but as a non-terran it's really hard to enjoy reading through the history as a whole. It revolves so much around how terran is doing. You just have to see how much **** PvZ regularly takes, let alone in this thread. PvZ is a shitty matchup most of the time though. Not really enjoyable to watch ^.^ And Terran got nerfed a lot, Protoss got a few rather small buffs, so PvT didn't change all on itself. You are just as biased as most people are. Just to give an example: Zerg defenders say that Zergs just became more skilled and that the Infestor is fine and that Zerg can't win if the Infestor gets nerfed. Protoss defenders were whining really hard when Khaldaryan (or however you write that) Amulet got removed. Terrans were whining when Snipe got nerfed into the ground. As I said: we are all biased, you are biased as well, it's not as bad as you think it is. Why is PvZ not enjoyable to watch? Major argument is that it's cause it revolves around Z trying to get to lategame and P trying to prevent the Z from getting there. But that's not right, because that's also what happened in TvZ before the patch, and people weren't saying "TvZ is a shitty match-up", they were saying "TvZ became a shitty match-up". Suggesting that there was already something wrong with PvZ before zergs realized the way to never lose. So what was that problem? It bores people. Why ? Deathball vs deathball, too positional? So why don't you hate tanks? Hate timing attacks? There goes much of TvP... You can't really bring up a valid argument of WHY PvZ is shitty that doesn't imply the shittiness of other match-ups. Yet most people hate PvZ (I don't, if you couldn't tell). I can quote a lot of people saying that TvZ is the real match-up of Starcraft, the "true" match-up, whatever. But you could go a bit further: why is it that TvT gets good press compared to the other mirrors? Long game vs short game? Not really, we already stated that long game PvZ is boring, and both other mirrors do have late game. One engagement decides the whole thing? That's not necessarily true, and it can also happen very easily in TvT. What can I say? People just like terrans. And you're trying to show me that I'm biased like I didn't know it. Of course I'm biased. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be so annoyed by people telling me how the things I enjoy are shitty over and over again, I wouldn't be so annoyed by people saying that "the patch seems to have solved the problems of this game, now everything is fine I can enjoy SC2 again" when it's now 8-6-2 with 2 being the race I support. Are you being serious right now, or is this more idiot logic? Pray tell, where was all this random shit spewing when Creator won TSL 4 or WCS SK? Or maybe when Parting won BWC and WCG 2012? Or how about when Rain won both WCS Asia and OSL? Hmm? Oh.. not to mention Hero winning both Dreamhack Winter and NASL 4... Yea, sounds pretty much like idiot protoss fanboyism to me... No offense to other protosses out there, just this one guy giving your race a bad image. Oh, and I also forgot to mention that all the code S slots for next year's Season 1 hasn't even been decided yet and already you're bitching? Did you even see the player pool for the Blizzard cup this year? And still you talk shit about people favoring Terran? Hmm, maybe it's because Terran has been the most under represented race in tournaments for at least the last 6 months... It's quite the welcome pace from watching only ZvZ or PvZ (or PvP) in more than a Bo3 series. And still you bitch and moan... Disgraceful... I don't get what you're trying to make me say. Did I enjoy protosses winning events? Yeah, of course, I'm a protoss supporter. I don't think the game is unbalanced for protoss right now and I never said such a thing. It's annoying to me that there are only 2 protosses in there right now but that doesn't mean anything about balance of the game. And no, people aren't happy because terrans were under represented before: I've met the same wall for long enough, and it was particularly brutal at the time of SC2 history when terran was winning everything. So there goes. You don't have to be agressive about it though, it's not a problem that terrans are fan-favourite, it's just a fact. I hate that this fact means that I have to read through countless pages of how I have shit-taste in my watchings and so on, but you shouldn't. TvT and TvZ have been regarded as the best matchups in the game for well over a year. Right now, if I remember from a recent poll for "best matchups", it's TvT- TvZ - TvP. TvT is the best matchup in the game and that's simply a fact. Playhem produced statistic of a huge sample size showing that TvT was the matchup where the better player, ie Pro vs Joe, won more than any other matchup-- it was somewhere around 90% where the pro only one in PvP 75% of the time. Terran games are simply more exciting. Many people, including many pro gamers, say that the game was the worst it's ever been over the past few months due to Zerg. Recent results of the past major tournaments over the last 3 months have ZvT at 60%-- one of the most imbalanced matchups in the past 1.5 years. ZvP is regarded as shit because it's literally the same thing every game. Protoss does 2 or 3 base all in. If not he loses to infestor broodlord. And in late game the spectator can't really see the micro like Terran. It just looks like a move vs a move. Also things like immortal sentry or infestor broodlord can have significantly worse players beating better players. The game even made TB quit casting WoL. Also, comparing the game now to 2 years ago when Terran dominated is just stupid. Maps like Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant, and Xel Naga Caverns were still in the map pool. There was really no meta game. No one made infestors and Protoss 4 gated or 6 gated every other game. Okay, so you're agreeing with me that terran is a fan favourite, except you're adding the notion that it should be this way based on two things: - Pro beats random in TvT, which will be a point of contention because of the bonjwa phenomenon: I find it worse from an audience PoV because it decreases the element of surprise (=> generally people love to root for the underdog), but a lot of people seem to enjoy seeing the same person win lots and lots of games (=> bonjwa). I see where you're going with it but I would still disagree that it's enough to assert "best match-up" like you're trying to. - excitement provoked by the games, which is completely subjective. I also would emphasize the difference between "Well there's a problem with ZvT, we should find ways to patch it to make it watchable", and "Well there's a problem with ZvP, zomg this is a shitty match-up, let's quit watching this game" Which is basically what you are saying yourself. Although you can argue that excitement provoked by the games is completely subjective. But most people enjoy action pack games with action all over the map compare with passive game ending in 10 seconds from lasers wars (PvP). Subjective? Technically. Does it matter? And if you think the changes did not have Protoss in mind?(which is what you are complaining that they aren't 'fixing' PvZ). The fungal nerf helps both T and P since tank and colossi can pick of infestors easier. But it probably helps T more. However, the egg nerf made them killable with 1 storm which is very helpful for Ps. I think infested terrans was a bigger issue than fungals were in late game PvZ. Funny how you went from defending that terran isn't the fan-favourite race to "fans are right to enjoy terran match-ups more than others cause they have more action in them." And yeah of course the patch will help PvZ. I think we'll have more late-game, more interesting games, a lot overall better play. Pretty much the same as it will help TvZ. I just don't think people will care.
Well, it's a good thing your opinion only matters to you.
Good day.
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Am I the only person, who was just watching Symbol's reaction in the booth for the final 10 minutes of Game 2 rather than the game itself?
He looked so completely demoralized and defeated, even with half hearted face palm and constant big sighs that told the entire story of the game.
Not really surprised by the performance from baby..
I remember his stupidly good TvT in bw due to his constant triple-quadra aggression from drops, drove everyone from Fantasy to Flash, completely nuts. His weakness is against a turtled opponent who plays ultra safe, at least from bw.
But nevertheless he made me giggle in game 2 watching the VODs
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EPT
