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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
oh be quiet, this argument is stupid
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Raise average skill level by introducing kespa players and flushing out fodder Code S players and below -> MVP would have a lower chance of getting 5 GLS champions?
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no shit?
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United States142 Posts
On October 04 2012 08:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 08:30 MONXY FIST wrote:On October 04 2012 08:13 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 07:08 ChoiSulli wrote:On October 04 2012 06:20 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 06:12 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 06:08 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 05:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:42 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 05:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:
[quote] lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior. Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead. Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003. Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures. Yes every player that did not play under Kespa is an amateur, this is some of the most convincing stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. You win. Thanks for pointing out the obvious genius. This is "StarCraft". The "StarCraft" pro scene was under kespas umbrella smart one. Therefore anyone that wasn't in it prior to the release of SC2 is considered an amature in the game of starcraft. I enjoy the fact that you continue to comment back when your clearly lost the debate in my first post. The Starcraft 2 Pro Scene is under nobodies umbrella, Kespa classifications don't mean shit. Even if they did mean anything being an " amateur " in the eyes of Kespa is irrelevant as long as you are a good player. I'm done with this conversation now as this is obviously going nowhere, if you think answering my post with On October 04 2012 05:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:42 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 05:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:30 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 05:21 BlazeFury01 wrote:
[quote]
Yah it may be a dumb discussion to you but its still a fact. Not much to discuss if It's a " fact " It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him. I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful. lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior. Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead. Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003. Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures. is a good argument then this is pointless. BlazeFury overall argument is that it was a BW pro vs amateurs. So at the start of SCII when MVP made his switch, he was an A-teamer allbeit a shitty one. Then there were some BW legends that also switched that were either retired or rotting on benches and hardly got to play in pro league. Then you have a lot of B-teamers that switched, they ended up being MVP's biggest rivals. About 1 year into SCII ForGG was the first so called "elephent" to switch, although he had been without a BW team for a while and was practicing on his own. He was able to make Code S but never challenged for any titles in GSL. The rest of the players are amateurs (including practice partners) and foreign pros of which the majority only managed to compete on par with Korean amateurs. When you look at who MVP competed the most against in the GSL its actually former BW B-teamers which are considered BW Pro's. Yes they are a step below, many never got to see the pro stage, but as B-teamers you still competed in OSL/MSL you still were considered a professional BW player. So BlazeFury I think is wrong when he said it was a BW pro vs amateurs. Most BW fans would label MVP as a "mediocre A-teamer" and he competed against mostly "B-teamers" that would still rape the shit out of every amateur in the foreign and korean scene. His other point that MVP wouldnt have been as sucessful is speculation of course. However, what are the odds that a "mediocre A-teamer" lets say the 85 best BW player at the time of the switch. Would go on to win 5 titles had the 84 better BW palyers made the switch with him at the same time. The answer I think is highly unlikely. Its like if a new baseketball game gained popularity with nets that are 3 feet shorter and the a rim made 5 inches wider. Would if all the DIV II college teams switched and lets say one average DIV I college team switched. Would they 2 years later, when all the DIV I powerhouses switch still be the best? The answer I guess depends on how different the new game is from the old game. The fact that MVP rose to the top, and that the rest of the top players consists of BW B-teamers means that they are pretty similar. I trully expect a year from now the top 20 out of 30 players in the world to be current Kespa pros. Pretty much this. However, when I said "amature" that was anybody who wasn't considered a "pro". The reason I brought up the point in the first place was because somebody had said that MVP winning 5 GSL titles or something like that would give him the right to obtain "bonjwa" status. When in reality, he didn't play the highest caliber of players in those GSL's to obtain such a title. One thing to note is that MVP was the one with the best pro league record out of the first "kespa" players to make the transition. I guess i will just repeat myself a player can only be compared against his peers Do you go around the forums talking about how lucky Boxer was because he played in a less competitive era? No you don't because Boxer was BW legend and your BW fanboy, so it's not about talking about how players can be dominant in certain eras or how a sport or game can be more competitive as the talent pool increases(this is essentially what is happening right now in SC2) no it's just about taking a cheap shot at MVP and by extension all eSF players. I know this may be hard to understand for some people but SC2 and BW are different games. Its like comparing a field hockey player with an Ice Hockey player it's just dumb. Also a player can only be compared against the people he competed against. This is what pretty much anyone does when they talk about sports legends you don't see people go "oh if babe ruth played to day he would suck" all that matters is how dominant they were against their peers. Also is there some reason BW fans need to keep on reminding people how much better "their" players are? The two games are definitely different. However, the results show that the lower tier BW players are the best in SC2 and also the fact thatKespa players are already beating these players with less than a 6 months of practice. Nobody even brought up that the Brood War players were better. I just simply stated the obvious: MVP probably wouldn't have won 5 GSL's if Kespa transitioned sooner. It's all speculation though. But, based off the bolded quote, It's quite logical.
Whats happening right now in SC2 is increase in the talent pool by an introduction of a a pool of talent that wasn't previously their kinda how like removing the color barrier in baseball introduce a vast amount of new talent therefore increase the competitive nature of the game. This doesn't make the accomplishments of players who played before that anything less significant. I mean we are pretty much doubling the amount of players in the scene OF COURSE ITS GOING TO GET HARDER TO WIN A GSL That is like common sense. All you are doing is trying to delegitimize a player accomplishments. I don't see you making the same arguments about players like Boxer who also had their dominance during a less competitive era.
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The more Rain wins the more I can understand this girl ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Dlzbz.gif)
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if MVP wins, he needs a new nickname. Either Umbrella Terran or MVP: Destroyer of Hype
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On October 04 2012 09:04 mango_destroyer wrote:The more Rain wins the more I can understand this girl
Rain is kind of cute indeed, not Bisu-cute, but still cute.
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On October 04 2012 08:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 08:30 MONXY FIST wrote:On October 04 2012 08:13 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 07:08 ChoiSulli wrote:On October 04 2012 06:20 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 06:12 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 06:08 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 05:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:42 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 05:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:
[quote] lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior. Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead. Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003. Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures. Yes every player that did not play under Kespa is an amateur, this is some of the most convincing stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. You win. Thanks for pointing out the obvious genius. This is "StarCraft". The "StarCraft" pro scene was under kespas umbrella smart one. Therefore anyone that wasn't in it prior to the release of SC2 is considered an amature in the game of starcraft. I enjoy the fact that you continue to comment back when your clearly lost the debate in my first post. The Starcraft 2 Pro Scene is under nobodies umbrella, Kespa classifications don't mean shit. Even if they did mean anything being an " amateur " in the eyes of Kespa is irrelevant as long as you are a good player. I'm done with this conversation now as this is obviously going nowhere, if you think answering my post with On October 04 2012 05:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:42 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 05:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:30 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 05:21 BlazeFury01 wrote:
[quote]
Yah it may be a dumb discussion to you but its still a fact. Not much to discuss if It's a " fact " It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him. I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful. lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior. Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead. Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003. Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures. is a good argument then this is pointless. BlazeFury overall argument is that it was a BW pro vs amateurs. So at the start of SCII when MVP made his switch, he was an A-teamer allbeit a shitty one. Then there were some BW legends that also switched that were either retired or rotting on benches and hardly got to play in pro league. Then you have a lot of B-teamers that switched, they ended up being MVP's biggest rivals. About 1 year into SCII ForGG was the first so called "elephent" to switch, although he had been without a BW team for a while and was practicing on his own. He was able to make Code S but never challenged for any titles in GSL. The rest of the players are amateurs (including practice partners) and foreign pros of which the majority only managed to compete on par with Korean amateurs. When you look at who MVP competed the most against in the GSL its actually former BW B-teamers which are considered BW Pro's. Yes they are a step below, many never got to see the pro stage, but as B-teamers you still competed in OSL/MSL you still were considered a professional BW player. So BlazeFury I think is wrong when he said it was a BW pro vs amateurs. Most BW fans would label MVP as a "mediocre A-teamer" and he competed against mostly "B-teamers" that would still rape the shit out of every amateur in the foreign and korean scene. His other point that MVP wouldnt have been as sucessful is speculation of course. However, what are the odds that a "mediocre A-teamer" lets say the 85 best BW player at the time of the switch. Would go on to win 5 titles had the 84 better BW palyers made the switch with him at the same time. The answer I think is highly unlikely. Its like if a new baseketball game gained popularity with nets that are 3 feet shorter and the a rim made 5 inches wider. Would if all the DIV II college teams switched and lets say one average DIV I college team switched. Would they 2 years later, when all the DIV I powerhouses switch still be the best? The answer I guess depends on how different the new game is from the old game. The fact that MVP rose to the top, and that the rest of the top players consists of BW B-teamers means that they are pretty similar. I trully expect a year from now the top 20 out of 30 players in the world to be current Kespa pros. Pretty much this. However, when I said "amature" that was anybody who wasn't considered a "pro". The reason I brought up the point in the first place was because somebody had said that MVP winning 5 GSL titles or something like that would give him the right to obtain "bonjwa" status. When in reality, he didn't play the highest caliber of players in those GSL's to obtain such a title. One thing to note is that MVP was the one with the best pro league record out of the first "kespa" players to make the transition. I know this may be hard to understand for some people but SC2 and BW are different games. Its like comparing a field hockey player with an Ice Hockey player it's just dumb. Also a player can only be compared against the people he competed against. This is what pretty much anyone does when they talk about sports legends you don't see people go "oh if babe ruth played to day he would suck" all that matters is how dominant they were against their peers. Also is there some reason BW fans need to keep on reminding people how much better "their" players are? The two games are definitely different. However, the results show that the lower tier BW players are the best in SC2 and also the fact that Kespa players are already beating these players with less than a 6 months of practice. Nobody even brought up that the Brood War players were better. I just simply stated the obvious: MVP probably wouldn't have won 5 GSL's if Kespa transitioned sooner. It's all speculation though. But, based off the bolded quote, It's quite logical.
The fact that you say that Kespa players are already beating these players with less than 6 months of practice is completely irrelevant. The fact is, Kespa players switched around 2 years after the games was released. The strategies were already laid out for them and all they had to do is execute them and learn general game sense. With the amount of practice they do and previous game experience, it is easy for them to do. But if they had switched earlier at the same time of MVP, then it would be harder for them since the strategies would be unexplored and thus time would be taken perfect builds.
Simply put, if my brother plays Starcraft 1 and I play Starcraft 2, and my brother switches and asks me for help, it would be easier for him to do. However, if he switched as the same as me, then it would of been much harder for him.
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Tastosis doing their thing @ today's GSL Code S.
![[image loading]](http://oi47.tinypic.com/urg4m.jpg)
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On October 04 2012 10:09 Shinobi1982 wrote:Tastosis doing their thing @ today's GSL Code S.
Haha epic stuff,
Can't wait to watch the MVP games missed them last night, that man is a boss nothing else to say.
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On October 04 2012 08:47 MONXY FIST wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 08:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 08:30 MONXY FIST wrote:On October 04 2012 08:13 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 07:08 ChoiSulli wrote:On October 04 2012 06:20 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 06:12 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 06:08 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 05:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:42 Dodgin wrote:
[quote]
Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead.
Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003. Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures. Yes every player that did not play under Kespa is an amateur, this is some of the most convincing stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. You win. Thanks for pointing out the obvious genius. This is "StarCraft". The "StarCraft" pro scene was under kespas umbrella smart one. Therefore anyone that wasn't in it prior to the release of SC2 is considered an amature in the game of starcraft. I enjoy the fact that you continue to comment back when your clearly lost the debate in my first post. The Starcraft 2 Pro Scene is under nobodies umbrella, Kespa classifications don't mean shit. Even if they did mean anything being an " amateur " in the eyes of Kespa is irrelevant as long as you are a good player. I'm done with this conversation now as this is obviously going nowhere, if you think answering my post with On October 04 2012 05:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:42 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 05:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:30 Dodgin wrote:
[quote]
Not much to discuss if It's a " fact "
It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him.
I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful. lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior. Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead. Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003. Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures. is a good argument then this is pointless. BlazeFury overall argument is that it was a BW pro vs amateurs. So at the start of SCII when MVP made his switch, he was an A-teamer allbeit a shitty one. Then there were some BW legends that also switched that were either retired or rotting on benches and hardly got to play in pro league. Then you have a lot of B-teamers that switched, they ended up being MVP's biggest rivals. About 1 year into SCII ForGG was the first so called "elephent" to switch, although he had been without a BW team for a while and was practicing on his own. He was able to make Code S but never challenged for any titles in GSL. The rest of the players are amateurs (including practice partners) and foreign pros of which the majority only managed to compete on par with Korean amateurs. When you look at who MVP competed the most against in the GSL its actually former BW B-teamers which are considered BW Pro's. Yes they are a step below, many never got to see the pro stage, but as B-teamers you still competed in OSL/MSL you still were considered a professional BW player. So BlazeFury I think is wrong when he said it was a BW pro vs amateurs. Most BW fans would label MVP as a "mediocre A-teamer" and he competed against mostly "B-teamers" that would still rape the shit out of every amateur in the foreign and korean scene. His other point that MVP wouldnt have been as sucessful is speculation of course. However, what are the odds that a "mediocre A-teamer" lets say the 85 best BW player at the time of the switch. Would go on to win 5 titles had the 84 better BW palyers made the switch with him at the same time. The answer I think is highly unlikely. Its like if a new baseketball game gained popularity with nets that are 3 feet shorter and the a rim made 5 inches wider. Would if all the DIV II college teams switched and lets say one average DIV I college team switched. Would they 2 years later, when all the DIV I powerhouses switch still be the best? The answer I guess depends on how different the new game is from the old game. The fact that MVP rose to the top, and that the rest of the top players consists of BW B-teamers means that they are pretty similar. I trully expect a year from now the top 20 out of 30 players in the world to be current Kespa pros. Pretty much this. However, when I said "amature" that was anybody who wasn't considered a "pro". The reason I brought up the point in the first place was because somebody had said that MVP winning 5 GSL titles or something like that would give him the right to obtain "bonjwa" status. When in reality, he didn't play the highest caliber of players in those GSL's to obtain such a title. One thing to note is that MVP was the one with the best pro league record out of the first "kespa" players to make the transition. I guess i will just repeat myself a player can only be compared against his peers Do you go around the forums talking about how lucky Boxer was because he played in a less competitive era? No you don't because Boxer was BW legend and your BW fanboy, so it's not about talking about how players can be dominant in certain eras or how a sport or game can be more competitive as the talent pool increases(this is essentially what is happening right now in SC2) no it's just about taking a cheap shot at MVP and by extension all eSF players. I know this may be hard to understand for some people but SC2 and BW are different games. Its like comparing a field hockey player with an Ice Hockey player it's just dumb. Also a player can only be compared against the people he competed against. This is what pretty much anyone does when they talk about sports legends you don't see people go "oh if babe ruth played to day he would suck" all that matters is how dominant they were against their peers. Also is there some reason BW fans need to keep on reminding people how much better "their" players are? The two games are definitely different. However, the results show that the lower tier BW players are the best in SC2 and also the fact thatKespa players are already beating these players with less than a 6 months of practice. Nobody even brought up that the Brood War players were better. I just simply stated the obvious: MVP probably wouldn't have won 5 GSL's if Kespa transitioned sooner. It's all speculation though. But, based off the bolded quote, It's quite logical. Whats happening right now in SC2 is increase in the talent pool by an introduction of a a pool of talent that wasn't previously their kinda how like removing the color barrier in baseball introduce a vast amount of new talent therefore increase the competitive nature of the game. This doesn't make the accomplishments of players who played before that anything less significant. I mean we are pretty much doubling the amount of players in the scene OF COURSE ITS GOING TO GET HARDER TO WIN A GSL That is like common sense. All you are doing is trying to delegitimize a player accomplishments. I don't see you making the same arguments about players like Boxer who also had their dominance during a less competitive era.
That's because everybody started on the same level as Boxer. There weren't "better" players at that time and Boxer surpassed them through dedication. When MVP started sc2, there were already a vast amount of players who had much better results in a game that many consider to be the hardest RTS game ever created. Many of my korean friends told me that becoming a progamer in Korea is harder than becoming a lawyer. I am not trying to deligitimize MVPs accomplishments, I am a fan of the dude but realistically he won a great amount of championships due to a lower skill cap and having an advantage because of his prior exposure to the pro scene. MVP is THAT dude. But, don't be so ignorant and ignore the simple fact that the skill ceiling wasn't near the max when he won those championships.
I'm done with discussing this though.
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im sorry but these guys got so good in such little time. all ive seen was rain getting better each time. i doubt they reach their peak.
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On October 04 2012 09:17 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 08:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 08:30 MONXY FIST wrote:On October 04 2012 08:13 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 07:08 ChoiSulli wrote:On October 04 2012 06:20 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 06:12 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 06:08 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 05:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:42 Dodgin wrote:
[quote]
Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead.
Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003. Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures. Yes every player that did not play under Kespa is an amateur, this is some of the most convincing stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. You win. Thanks for pointing out the obvious genius. This is "StarCraft". The "StarCraft" pro scene was under kespas umbrella smart one. Therefore anyone that wasn't in it prior to the release of SC2 is considered an amature in the game of starcraft. I enjoy the fact that you continue to comment back when your clearly lost the debate in my first post. The Starcraft 2 Pro Scene is under nobodies umbrella, Kespa classifications don't mean shit. Even if they did mean anything being an " amateur " in the eyes of Kespa is irrelevant as long as you are a good player. I'm done with this conversation now as this is obviously going nowhere, if you think answering my post with On October 04 2012 05:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:42 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 05:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:30 Dodgin wrote:
[quote]
Not much to discuss if It's a " fact "
It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him.
I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful. lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior. Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead. Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003. Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures. is a good argument then this is pointless. BlazeFury overall argument is that it was a BW pro vs amateurs. So at the start of SCII when MVP made his switch, he was an A-teamer allbeit a shitty one. Then there were some BW legends that also switched that were either retired or rotting on benches and hardly got to play in pro league. Then you have a lot of B-teamers that switched, they ended up being MVP's biggest rivals. About 1 year into SCII ForGG was the first so called "elephent" to switch, although he had been without a BW team for a while and was practicing on his own. He was able to make Code S but never challenged for any titles in GSL. The rest of the players are amateurs (including practice partners) and foreign pros of which the majority only managed to compete on par with Korean amateurs. When you look at who MVP competed the most against in the GSL its actually former BW B-teamers which are considered BW Pro's. Yes they are a step below, many never got to see the pro stage, but as B-teamers you still competed in OSL/MSL you still were considered a professional BW player. So BlazeFury I think is wrong when he said it was a BW pro vs amateurs. Most BW fans would label MVP as a "mediocre A-teamer" and he competed against mostly "B-teamers" that would still rape the shit out of every amateur in the foreign and korean scene. His other point that MVP wouldnt have been as sucessful is speculation of course. However, what are the odds that a "mediocre A-teamer" lets say the 85 best BW player at the time of the switch. Would go on to win 5 titles had the 84 better BW palyers made the switch with him at the same time. The answer I think is highly unlikely. Its like if a new baseketball game gained popularity with nets that are 3 feet shorter and the a rim made 5 inches wider. Would if all the DIV II college teams switched and lets say one average DIV I college team switched. Would they 2 years later, when all the DIV I powerhouses switch still be the best? The answer I guess depends on how different the new game is from the old game. The fact that MVP rose to the top, and that the rest of the top players consists of BW B-teamers means that they are pretty similar. I trully expect a year from now the top 20 out of 30 players in the world to be current Kespa pros. Pretty much this. However, when I said "amature" that was anybody who wasn't considered a "pro". The reason I brought up the point in the first place was because somebody had said that MVP winning 5 GSL titles or something like that would give him the right to obtain "bonjwa" status. When in reality, he didn't play the highest caliber of players in those GSL's to obtain such a title. One thing to note is that MVP was the one with the best pro league record out of the first "kespa" players to make the transition. I know this may be hard to understand for some people but SC2 and BW are different games. Its like comparing a field hockey player with an Ice Hockey player it's just dumb. Also a player can only be compared against the people he competed against. This is what pretty much anyone does when they talk about sports legends you don't see people go "oh if babe ruth played to day he would suck" all that matters is how dominant they were against their peers. Also is there some reason BW fans need to keep on reminding people how much better "their" players are? The two games are definitely different. However, the results show that the lower tier BW players are the best in SC2 and also the fact that Kespa players are already beating these players with less than a 6 months of practice. Nobody even brought up that the Brood War players were better. I just simply stated the obvious: MVP probably wouldn't have won 5 GSL's if Kespa transitioned sooner. It's all speculation though. But, based off the bolded quote, It's quite logical. The fact that you say that Kespa players are already beating these players with less than 6 months of practice is completely irrelevant. The fact is, Kespa players switched around 2 years after the games was released. The strategies were already laid out for them and all they had to do is execute them and learn general game sense. With the amount of practice they do and previous game experience, it is easy for them to do. But if they had switched earlier at the same time of MVP, then it would be harder for them since the strategies would be unexplored and thus time would be taken perfect builds. Simply put, if my brother plays Starcraft 1 and I play Starcraft 2, and my brother switches and asks me for help, it would be easier for him to do. However, if he switched as the same as me, then it would of been much harder for him.
I don't know why people keep saying this. It's the worst argument ever. It'd be like some 15-year-old becoming the world champion in chess, and people saying "Well yeah, of course it's easy for him now that people have discovered so much opening theory; all he had to do was memorize it and study some other stuff. I'd like to see him be this good 100 years ago when he'd have to figure this all out himself!"
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On October 04 2012 13:24 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 09:17 Housemd wrote:On October 04 2012 08:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 08:30 MONXY FIST wrote:On October 04 2012 08:13 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 07:08 ChoiSulli wrote:On October 04 2012 06:20 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 06:12 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 06:08 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 05:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:
[quote]
Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures. Yes every player that did not play under Kespa is an amateur, this is some of the most convincing stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. You win. Thanks for pointing out the obvious genius. This is "StarCraft". The "StarCraft" pro scene was under kespas umbrella smart one. Therefore anyone that wasn't in it prior to the release of SC2 is considered an amature in the game of starcraft. I enjoy the fact that you continue to comment back when your clearly lost the debate in my first post. The Starcraft 2 Pro Scene is under nobodies umbrella, Kespa classifications don't mean shit. Even if they did mean anything being an " amateur " in the eyes of Kespa is irrelevant as long as you are a good player. I'm done with this conversation now as this is obviously going nowhere, if you think answering my post with On October 04 2012 05:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:42 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 05:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:
[quote] lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior. Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead. Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003. Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures. is a good argument then this is pointless. BlazeFury overall argument is that it was a BW pro vs amateurs. So at the start of SCII when MVP made his switch, he was an A-teamer allbeit a shitty one. Then there were some BW legends that also switched that were either retired or rotting on benches and hardly got to play in pro league. Then you have a lot of B-teamers that switched, they ended up being MVP's biggest rivals. About 1 year into SCII ForGG was the first so called "elephent" to switch, although he had been without a BW team for a while and was practicing on his own. He was able to make Code S but never challenged for any titles in GSL. The rest of the players are amateurs (including practice partners) and foreign pros of which the majority only managed to compete on par with Korean amateurs. When you look at who MVP competed the most against in the GSL its actually former BW B-teamers which are considered BW Pro's. Yes they are a step below, many never got to see the pro stage, but as B-teamers you still competed in OSL/MSL you still were considered a professional BW player. So BlazeFury I think is wrong when he said it was a BW pro vs amateurs. Most BW fans would label MVP as a "mediocre A-teamer" and he competed against mostly "B-teamers" that would still rape the shit out of every amateur in the foreign and korean scene. His other point that MVP wouldnt have been as sucessful is speculation of course. However, what are the odds that a "mediocre A-teamer" lets say the 85 best BW player at the time of the switch. Would go on to win 5 titles had the 84 better BW palyers made the switch with him at the same time. The answer I think is highly unlikely. Its like if a new baseketball game gained popularity with nets that are 3 feet shorter and the a rim made 5 inches wider. Would if all the DIV II college teams switched and lets say one average DIV I college team switched. Would they 2 years later, when all the DIV I powerhouses switch still be the best? The answer I guess depends on how different the new game is from the old game. The fact that MVP rose to the top, and that the rest of the top players consists of BW B-teamers means that they are pretty similar. I trully expect a year from now the top 20 out of 30 players in the world to be current Kespa pros. Pretty much this. However, when I said "amature" that was anybody who wasn't considered a "pro". The reason I brought up the point in the first place was because somebody had said that MVP winning 5 GSL titles or something like that would give him the right to obtain "bonjwa" status. When in reality, he didn't play the highest caliber of players in those GSL's to obtain such a title. One thing to note is that MVP was the one with the best pro league record out of the first "kespa" players to make the transition. I know this may be hard to understand for some people but SC2 and BW are different games. Its like comparing a field hockey player with an Ice Hockey player it's just dumb. Also a player can only be compared against the people he competed against. This is what pretty much anyone does when they talk about sports legends you don't see people go "oh if babe ruth played to day he would suck" all that matters is how dominant they were against their peers. Also is there some reason BW fans need to keep on reminding people how much better "their" players are? The two games are definitely different. However, the results show that the lower tier BW players are the best in SC2 and also the fact that Kespa players are already beating these players with less than a 6 months of practice. Nobody even brought up that the Brood War players were better. I just simply stated the obvious: MVP probably wouldn't have won 5 GSL's if Kespa transitioned sooner. It's all speculation though. But, based off the bolded quote, It's quite logical. The fact that you say that Kespa players are already beating these players with less than 6 months of practice is completely irrelevant. The fact is, Kespa players switched around 2 years after the games was released. The strategies were already laid out for them and all they had to do is execute them and learn general game sense. With the amount of practice they do and previous game experience, it is easy for them to do. But if they had switched earlier at the same time of MVP, then it would be harder for them since the strategies would be unexplored and thus time would be taken perfect builds. Simply put, if my brother plays Starcraft 1 and I play Starcraft 2, and my brother switches and asks me for help, it would be easier for him to do. However, if he switched as the same as me, then it would of been much harder for him. I don't know why people keep saying this. It's the worst argument ever. It'd be like some 15-year-old becoming the world champion in chess, and people saying "Well yeah, of course it's easy for him now that people have discovered so much opening theory; all he had to do was memorize it and study some other stuff. I'd like to see him be this good 100 years ago when he'd have to figure this all out himself!"
except chess is much more deep and complex than sc2, and without the mechanics aspect too. it's not hard to learn the sc2 builds and strategies
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On October 04 2012 06:55 Nick_54 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 05:01 ElephantBaby wrote:On October 04 2012 04:55 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 00:48 Nick_54 wrote:On October 03 2012 23:01 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 03 2012 22:59 Ace1123 wrote:
YEY MVP! Please 5th ever GSL Champ and engrave your name in the SC history forever! I will say that MVP is extremely lucky that the Kespa players didn't transition sooner. Flash was really lucky they didn't transition sooner... yeah that makes about as much sense as your claim. They didn't transition, so it does not matter. MVP was a very solid player near the end of his BW career. He has wins over Stork, Best, Jangbi, Effort, Flash, Mind, Snow,2-0 over Baby in MSL ro16. He was a solid A teamer at that point. Uh no nick, it doesn't make as much sense as my claim. MVP was lucky in the sense that the level of competition was much easier thus allowing him to get so many titles. If the Kespa players transitioned as soon as he did, the level of competition would have surely been much harder. He was basically a Brood War pro going up against amatures. Your post only confirms my statement. If he gets more titles now that the level of competiton has risen, I will be impressed. Also MVP doesn't have "wins" over flash. He has one win, with losses that trail it. Just like Boxer is "lucky" to start the game early 10 years ago. He certainly doesn't possess the skill level of Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, or even Baby. But it doesn't matter, he's still the most iconic e-sports figure on this planet. Right, Boxer is "lucky" he wasnt born 10 years later. LOL Flash is lucky the maps weren't terribly imbalanced aginst terran either or he wouldn't have won shit. Lets deal with reality and not with what ifs. MVP beat the competition put in front of him enough to be the best sc2 player to date with the most results. He is in another semifinals, these are facts. Who knows MVP couldve still won all those leagues with KESPA in them, we don't know. Also winning 1 game in a best of 5 vs a prime Flash is still one hell of an accomplishment. I think I am going to follow that one gentleman's advice and ignore you though. People have been impressed by his skill and are glad he is still doing well. I love KESPA players too and think we will see a lot from them, but don't be an ass because MVP isnt part of your elite fraternity of players. (Which he actually was a part of lol)
Flash won 3 finals 3-0. He wins whatever he wants.
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On October 04 2012 13:27 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 13:24 GolemMadness wrote:On October 04 2012 09:17 Housemd wrote:On October 04 2012 08:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 08:30 MONXY FIST wrote:On October 04 2012 08:13 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 07:08 ChoiSulli wrote:On October 04 2012 06:20 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 06:12 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 06:08 Dodgin wrote:
[quote]
Yes every player that did not play under Kespa is an amateur, this is some of the most convincing stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. You win. Thanks for pointing out the obvious genius. This is "StarCraft". The "StarCraft" pro scene was under kespas umbrella smart one. Therefore anyone that wasn't in it prior to the release of SC2 is considered an amature in the game of starcraft. I enjoy the fact that you continue to comment back when your clearly lost the debate in my first post. The Starcraft 2 Pro Scene is under nobodies umbrella, Kespa classifications don't mean shit. Even if they did mean anything being an " amateur " in the eyes of Kespa is irrelevant as long as you are a good player. I'm done with this conversation now as this is obviously going nowhere, if you think answering my post with On October 04 2012 05:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:42 Dodgin wrote:
[quote]
Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead.
Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003. Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures. is a good argument then this is pointless. BlazeFury overall argument is that it was a BW pro vs amateurs. So at the start of SCII when MVP made his switch, he was an A-teamer allbeit a shitty one. Then there were some BW legends that also switched that were either retired or rotting on benches and hardly got to play in pro league. Then you have a lot of B-teamers that switched, they ended up being MVP's biggest rivals. About 1 year into SCII ForGG was the first so called "elephent" to switch, although he had been without a BW team for a while and was practicing on his own. He was able to make Code S but never challenged for any titles in GSL. The rest of the players are amateurs (including practice partners) and foreign pros of which the majority only managed to compete on par with Korean amateurs. When you look at who MVP competed the most against in the GSL its actually former BW B-teamers which are considered BW Pro's. Yes they are a step below, many never got to see the pro stage, but as B-teamers you still competed in OSL/MSL you still were considered a professional BW player. So BlazeFury I think is wrong when he said it was a BW pro vs amateurs. Most BW fans would label MVP as a "mediocre A-teamer" and he competed against mostly "B-teamers" that would still rape the shit out of every amateur in the foreign and korean scene. His other point that MVP wouldnt have been as sucessful is speculation of course. However, what are the odds that a "mediocre A-teamer" lets say the 85 best BW player at the time of the switch. Would go on to win 5 titles had the 84 better BW palyers made the switch with him at the same time. The answer I think is highly unlikely. Its like if a new baseketball game gained popularity with nets that are 3 feet shorter and the a rim made 5 inches wider. Would if all the DIV II college teams switched and lets say one average DIV I college team switched. Would they 2 years later, when all the DIV I powerhouses switch still be the best? The answer I guess depends on how different the new game is from the old game. The fact that MVP rose to the top, and that the rest of the top players consists of BW B-teamers means that they are pretty similar. I trully expect a year from now the top 20 out of 30 players in the world to be current Kespa pros. Pretty much this. However, when I said "amature" that was anybody who wasn't considered a "pro". The reason I brought up the point in the first place was because somebody had said that MVP winning 5 GSL titles or something like that would give him the right to obtain "bonjwa" status. When in reality, he didn't play the highest caliber of players in those GSL's to obtain such a title. One thing to note is that MVP was the one with the best pro league record out of the first "kespa" players to make the transition. I know this may be hard to understand for some people but SC2 and BW are different games. Its like comparing a field hockey player with an Ice Hockey player it's just dumb. Also a player can only be compared against the people he competed against. This is what pretty much anyone does when they talk about sports legends you don't see people go "oh if babe ruth played to day he would suck" all that matters is how dominant they were against their peers. Also is there some reason BW fans need to keep on reminding people how much better "their" players are? The two games are definitely different. However, the results show that the lower tier BW players are the best in SC2 and also the fact that Kespa players are already beating these players with less than a 6 months of practice. Nobody even brought up that the Brood War players were better. I just simply stated the obvious: MVP probably wouldn't have won 5 GSL's if Kespa transitioned sooner. It's all speculation though. But, based off the bolded quote, It's quite logical. The fact that you say that Kespa players are already beating these players with less than 6 months of practice is completely irrelevant. The fact is, Kespa players switched around 2 years after the games was released. The strategies were already laid out for them and all they had to do is execute them and learn general game sense. With the amount of practice they do and previous game experience, it is easy for them to do. But if they had switched earlier at the same time of MVP, then it would be harder for them since the strategies would be unexplored and thus time would be taken perfect builds. Simply put, if my brother plays Starcraft 1 and I play Starcraft 2, and my brother switches and asks me for help, it would be easier for him to do. However, if he switched as the same as me, then it would of been much harder for him. I don't know why people keep saying this. It's the worst argument ever. It'd be like some 15-year-old becoming the world champion in chess, and people saying "Well yeah, of course it's easy for him now that people have discovered so much opening theory; all he had to do was memorize it and study some other stuff. I'd like to see him be this good 100 years ago when he'd have to figure this all out himself!" except chess is much more deep and complex than sc2, and without the mechanics aspect too. it's not hard to learn the sc2 builds and strategies
If learning the builds and strategies matter the least, then having a year and a half handicap is even bigger of a deal.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On October 04 2012 13:30 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 13:27 opterown wrote:On October 04 2012 13:24 GolemMadness wrote:On October 04 2012 09:17 Housemd wrote:On October 04 2012 08:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 08:30 MONXY FIST wrote:On October 04 2012 08:13 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 07:08 ChoiSulli wrote:On October 04 2012 06:20 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 06:12 BlazeFury01 wrote:
[quote]
Thanks for pointing out the obvious genius. This is "StarCraft". The "StarCraft" pro scene was under kespas umbrella smart one. Therefore anyone that wasn't in it prior to the release of SC2 is considered an amature in the game of starcraft. I enjoy the fact that you continue to comment back when your clearly lost the debate in my first post.
The Starcraft 2 Pro Scene is under nobodies umbrella, Kespa classifications don't mean shit. Even if they did mean anything being an " amateur " in the eyes of Kespa is irrelevant as long as you are a good player. I'm done with this conversation now as this is obviously going nowhere, if you think answering my post with On October 04 2012 05:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:
[quote]
Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures. is a good argument then this is pointless. BlazeFury overall argument is that it was a BW pro vs amateurs. So at the start of SCII when MVP made his switch, he was an A-teamer allbeit a shitty one. Then there were some BW legends that also switched that were either retired or rotting on benches and hardly got to play in pro league. Then you have a lot of B-teamers that switched, they ended up being MVP's biggest rivals. About 1 year into SCII ForGG was the first so called "elephent" to switch, although he had been without a BW team for a while and was practicing on his own. He was able to make Code S but never challenged for any titles in GSL. The rest of the players are amateurs (including practice partners) and foreign pros of which the majority only managed to compete on par with Korean amateurs. When you look at who MVP competed the most against in the GSL its actually former BW B-teamers which are considered BW Pro's. Yes they are a step below, many never got to see the pro stage, but as B-teamers you still competed in OSL/MSL you still were considered a professional BW player. So BlazeFury I think is wrong when he said it was a BW pro vs amateurs. Most BW fans would label MVP as a "mediocre A-teamer" and he competed against mostly "B-teamers" that would still rape the shit out of every amateur in the foreign and korean scene. His other point that MVP wouldnt have been as sucessful is speculation of course. However, what are the odds that a "mediocre A-teamer" lets say the 85 best BW player at the time of the switch. Would go on to win 5 titles had the 84 better BW palyers made the switch with him at the same time. The answer I think is highly unlikely. Its like if a new baseketball game gained popularity with nets that are 3 feet shorter and the a rim made 5 inches wider. Would if all the DIV II college teams switched and lets say one average DIV I college team switched. Would they 2 years later, when all the DIV I powerhouses switch still be the best? The answer I guess depends on how different the new game is from the old game. The fact that MVP rose to the top, and that the rest of the top players consists of BW B-teamers means that they are pretty similar. I trully expect a year from now the top 20 out of 30 players in the world to be current Kespa pros. Pretty much this. However, when I said "amature" that was anybody who wasn't considered a "pro". The reason I brought up the point in the first place was because somebody had said that MVP winning 5 GSL titles or something like that would give him the right to obtain "bonjwa" status. When in reality, he didn't play the highest caliber of players in those GSL's to obtain such a title. One thing to note is that MVP was the one with the best pro league record out of the first "kespa" players to make the transition. I know this may be hard to understand for some people but SC2 and BW are different games. Its like comparing a field hockey player with an Ice Hockey player it's just dumb. Also a player can only be compared against the people he competed against. This is what pretty much anyone does when they talk about sports legends you don't see people go "oh if babe ruth played to day he would suck" all that matters is how dominant they were against their peers. Also is there some reason BW fans need to keep on reminding people how much better "their" players are? The two games are definitely different. However, the results show that the lower tier BW players are the best in SC2 and also the fact that Kespa players are already beating these players with less than a 6 months of practice. Nobody even brought up that the Brood War players were better. I just simply stated the obvious: MVP probably wouldn't have won 5 GSL's if Kespa transitioned sooner. It's all speculation though. But, based off the bolded quote, It's quite logical. The fact that you say that Kespa players are already beating these players with less than 6 months of practice is completely irrelevant. The fact is, Kespa players switched around 2 years after the games was released. The strategies were already laid out for them and all they had to do is execute them and learn general game sense. With the amount of practice they do and previous game experience, it is easy for them to do. But if they had switched earlier at the same time of MVP, then it would be harder for them since the strategies would be unexplored and thus time would be taken perfect builds. Simply put, if my brother plays Starcraft 1 and I play Starcraft 2, and my brother switches and asks me for help, it would be easier for him to do. However, if he switched as the same as me, then it would of been much harder for him. I don't know why people keep saying this. It's the worst argument ever. It'd be like some 15-year-old becoming the world champion in chess, and people saying "Well yeah, of course it's easy for him now that people have discovered so much opening theory; all he had to do was memorize it and study some other stuff. I'd like to see him be this good 100 years ago when he'd have to figure this all out himself!" except chess is much more deep and complex than sc2, and without the mechanics aspect too. it's not hard to learn the sc2 builds and strategies If learning the builds and strategies matter the least, then having a year and a half handicap is even bigger of a deal.
but his point was that during that 1.5years, the strategies were developed - the metagame has definitely changed a lot, and the kespa players skipped that formative process and just went straight into the current meta.
not saying it's easy - just easier. of course i expect many more meta shifts now that the kespa teamhouses bring their stuff into the sc2 scene too.
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Oh hot dayuum.
Poor Hero 
But it is nice for sure that Sun is doing really well in SC2.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
i don't think mvp would have won more than one tournament had he transitioned at the same time as the other pros. this is speaking as a big fan of his play.
the stuff he does well are things that a team pros are required to have as a matter of basic fundamentals. there are players with better mechanics and multitasking out there, and even though he is a strategic mastermind, there are also betters in that regard.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On October 04 2012 13:42 oneofthem wrote:
i don't think mvp would have won more than one tournament had he transitioned at the same time as the other pros. this is speaking as a big fan of his play.
the stuff he does well are things that a team pros are required to have as a matter of basic fundamentals. there are players with better mechanics and multitasking out there, and even though he is a strategic mastermind, there are also betters in that regard.
yes, but these 'a-team' pros have had a decent amount of sc2 playtime already and while some are doing well (e.g. bysun, flash) some are not doing so well (e.g. jaedong, jangbi) whereas some lower-tier (not s-level e.g. TLBS) players like roro are doing quite well, better than TBLS are. maybe it really does require a different skillset, and some people are more suited for certain games. hard work can close a lot of that gap, but not all of it.
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On October 04 2012 13:34 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 13:30 GolemMadness wrote:On October 04 2012 13:27 opterown wrote:On October 04 2012 13:24 GolemMadness wrote:On October 04 2012 09:17 Housemd wrote:On October 04 2012 08:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 08:30 MONXY FIST wrote:On October 04 2012 08:13 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 07:08 ChoiSulli wrote:On October 04 2012 06:20 Dodgin wrote:
[quote]
The Starcraft 2 Pro Scene is under nobodies umbrella, Kespa classifications don't mean shit. Even if they did mean anything being an " amateur " in the eyes of Kespa is irrelevant as long as you are a good player. I'm done with this conversation now as this is obviously going nowhere, if you think answering my post with [quote]
is a good argument then this is pointless. BlazeFury overall argument is that it was a BW pro vs amateurs. So at the start of SCII when MVP made his switch, he was an A-teamer allbeit a shitty one. Then there were some BW legends that also switched that were either retired or rotting on benches and hardly got to play in pro league. Then you have a lot of B-teamers that switched, they ended up being MVP's biggest rivals. About 1 year into SCII ForGG was the first so called "elephent" to switch, although he had been without a BW team for a while and was practicing on his own. He was able to make Code S but never challenged for any titles in GSL. The rest of the players are amateurs (including practice partners) and foreign pros of which the majority only managed to compete on par with Korean amateurs. When you look at who MVP competed the most against in the GSL its actually former BW B-teamers which are considered BW Pro's. Yes they are a step below, many never got to see the pro stage, but as B-teamers you still competed in OSL/MSL you still were considered a professional BW player. So BlazeFury I think is wrong when he said it was a BW pro vs amateurs. Most BW fans would label MVP as a "mediocre A-teamer" and he competed against mostly "B-teamers" that would still rape the shit out of every amateur in the foreign and korean scene. His other point that MVP wouldnt have been as sucessful is speculation of course. However, what are the odds that a "mediocre A-teamer" lets say the 85 best BW player at the time of the switch. Would go on to win 5 titles had the 84 better BW palyers made the switch with him at the same time. The answer I think is highly unlikely. Its like if a new baseketball game gained popularity with nets that are 3 feet shorter and the a rim made 5 inches wider. Would if all the DIV II college teams switched and lets say one average DIV I college team switched. Would they 2 years later, when all the DIV I powerhouses switch still be the best? The answer I guess depends on how different the new game is from the old game. The fact that MVP rose to the top, and that the rest of the top players consists of BW B-teamers means that they are pretty similar. I trully expect a year from now the top 20 out of 30 players in the world to be current Kespa pros. Pretty much this. However, when I said "amature" that was anybody who wasn't considered a "pro". The reason I brought up the point in the first place was because somebody had said that MVP winning 5 GSL titles or something like that would give him the right to obtain "bonjwa" status. When in reality, he didn't play the highest caliber of players in those GSL's to obtain such a title. One thing to note is that MVP was the one with the best pro league record out of the first "kespa" players to make the transition. I know this may be hard to understand for some people but SC2 and BW are different games. Its like comparing a field hockey player with an Ice Hockey player it's just dumb. Also a player can only be compared against the people he competed against. This is what pretty much anyone does when they talk about sports legends you don't see people go "oh if babe ruth played to day he would suck" all that matters is how dominant they were against their peers. Also is there some reason BW fans need to keep on reminding people how much better "their" players are? The two games are definitely different. However, the results show that the lower tier BW players are the best in SC2 and also the fact that Kespa players are already beating these players with less than a 6 months of practice. Nobody even brought up that the Brood War players were better. I just simply stated the obvious: MVP probably wouldn't have won 5 GSL's if Kespa transitioned sooner. It's all speculation though. But, based off the bolded quote, It's quite logical. The fact that you say that Kespa players are already beating these players with less than 6 months of practice is completely irrelevant. The fact is, Kespa players switched around 2 years after the games was released. The strategies were already laid out for them and all they had to do is execute them and learn general game sense. With the amount of practice they do and previous game experience, it is easy for them to do. But if they had switched earlier at the same time of MVP, then it would be harder for them since the strategies would be unexplored and thus time would be taken perfect builds. Simply put, if my brother plays Starcraft 1 and I play Starcraft 2, and my brother switches and asks me for help, it would be easier for him to do. However, if he switched as the same as me, then it would of been much harder for him. I don't know why people keep saying this. It's the worst argument ever. It'd be like some 15-year-old becoming the world champion in chess, and people saying "Well yeah, of course it's easy for him now that people have discovered so much opening theory; all he had to do was memorize it and study some other stuff. I'd like to see him be this good 100 years ago when he'd have to figure this all out himself!" except chess is much more deep and complex than sc2, and without the mechanics aspect too. it's not hard to learn the sc2 builds and strategies If learning the builds and strategies matter the least, then having a year and a half handicap is even bigger of a deal. but his point was that during that 1.5years, the strategies were developed - the metagame has definitely changed a lot, and the kespa players skipped that formative process and just went straight into the current meta. not saying it's easy - just easier. of course i expect many more meta shifts now that the kespa teamhouses bring their stuff into the sc2 scene too.
Of course it's easier if you can learn from the groundwork laid by others. Nobody's denying this. They're still at a disadvantage due to less time spent playing the game, however. This is obvious when you watch some of their games; they're just lacking some of the experience that players who switched earlier have.
"But if they had switched earlier at the same time of MVP, then it would be harder for them since the strategies would be unexplored"
This is just illogical. It wouldn't be harder because the rest of the players would have the same level of experience.
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EPT
