Some people just want to see the world burn... congrats BlazeFury01! You, yes YOU were the asshole who stirred this shit up this time. Everybody was just enjoying the games before you showed up with your asinine discussion. I'm sure you are feeling great about that.
On October 04 2012 05:18 Dodgin wrote: honestly this discussion is pretty stupid, we'll never know what would have happened because it didn't. They all had the chance to break off from kespa and try starcrat 2 but they didn't take it, their loss. Maybe they could have won 4 GSL's and made 300,000$ instead.
Yah it may be a dumb discussion to you but its still a fact.
Not much to discuss if It's a " fact "
It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him.
I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful.
lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior.
Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead.
Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003.
Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures.
Yes every player that did not play under Kespa is an amateur, this is some of the most convincing stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. You win.
On October 04 2012 05:18 Dodgin wrote: honestly this discussion is pretty stupid, we'll never know what would have happened because it didn't. They all had the chance to break off from kespa and try starcrat 2 but they didn't take it, their loss. Maybe they could have won 4 GSL's and made 300,000$ instead.
Yah it may be a dumb discussion to you but its still a fact.
Not much to discuss if It's a " fact "
It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him.
I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful.
lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior.
Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead.
Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003.
Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures.
Yes every player that did not play under Kespa is an amateur, this is some of the most convincing stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. You win.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious genius. This is "StarCraft". The "StarCraft" pro scene was under kespas umbrella smart one. Therefore anyone that wasn't in it prior to the release of SC2 is considered an amature in the game of starcraft. I enjoy the fact that you continue to comment back when your clearly lost the debate in my first post.
On October 04 2012 05:18 Dodgin wrote: honestly this discussion is pretty stupid, we'll never know what would have happened because it didn't. They all had the chance to break off from kespa and try starcrat 2 but they didn't take it, their loss. Maybe they could have won 4 GSL's and made 300,000$ instead.
Yah it may be a dumb discussion to you but its still a fact.
Not much to discuss if It's a " fact "
It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him.
I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful.
lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior.
Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead.
Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003.
Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures.
Yes every player that did not play under Kespa is an amateur, this is some of the most convincing stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. You win.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious genius. This is "StarCraft". The "StarCraft" pro scene was under kespas umbrella smart one. Therefore anyone that wasn't in it prior to the release of SC2 is considered an amature in the game of starcraft. I enjoy the fact that you continue to comment back when your clearly lost the debate in my first post.
The Starcraft 2 Pro Scene is under nobodies umbrella, Kespa classifications don't mean shit. Even if they did mean anything being an " amateur " in the eyes of Kespa is irrelevant as long as you are a good player. I'm done with this conversation now as this is obviously going nowhere, if you think answering my post with
On October 04 2012 05:18 Dodgin wrote: honestly this discussion is pretty stupid, we'll never know what would have happened because it didn't. They all had the chance to break off from kespa and try starcrat 2 but they didn't take it, their loss. Maybe they could have won 4 GSL's and made 300,000$ instead.
Yah it may be a dumb discussion to you but its still a fact.
Not much to discuss if It's a " fact "
It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him.
I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful.
lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior.
Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead.
Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003.
On October 04 2012 06:05 nokz88 wrote: Some people just want to see the world burn... congrats BlazeFury01! You, yes YOU were the asshole who stirred this shit up this time. Everybody was just enjoying the games before you showed up with your asinine discussion. I'm sure you are feeling great about that.
who would have thought differently with such a great name
On October 03 2012 22:59 Ace1123 wrote: YEY MVP! Please 5th ever GSL Champ and engrave your name in the SC history forever!
I will say that MVP is extremely lucky that the Kespa players didn't transition sooner.
Flash was really lucky they didn't transition sooner... yeah that makes about as much sense as your claim. They didn't transition, so it does not matter. MVP was a very solid player near the end of his BW career. He has wins over Stork, Best, Jangbi, Effort, Flash, Mind, Snow,2-0 over Baby in MSL ro16. He was a solid A teamer at that point.
Uh no nick, it doesn't make as much sense as my claim. MVP was lucky in the sense that the level of competition was much easier thus allowing him to get so many titles. If the Kespa players transitioned as soon as he did, the level of competition would have surely been much harder. He was basically a Brood War pro going up against amatures. Your post only confirms my statement. If he gets more titles now that the level of competiton has risen, I will be impressed. Also MVP doesn't have "wins" over flash. He has one win, with losses that trail it.
Just like Boxer is "lucky" to start the game early 10 years ago. He certainly doesn't possess the skill level of Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, or even Baby. But it doesn't matter, he's still the most iconic e-sports figure on this planet.
Right, Boxer is "lucky" he wasnt born 10 years later. LOL Flash is lucky the maps weren't terribly imbalanced aginst terran either or he wouldn't have won shit. Lets deal with reality and not with what ifs. MVP beat the competition put in front of him enough to be the best sc2 player to date with the most results. He is in another semifinals, these are facts. Who knows MVP couldve still won all those leagues with KESPA in them, we don't know. Also winning 1 game in a best of 5 vs a prime Flash is still one hell of an accomplishment.
I think I am going to follow that one gentleman's advice and ignore you though. People have been impressed by his skill and are glad he is still doing well. I love KESPA players too and think we will see a lot from them, but don't be an ass because MVP isnt part of your elite fraternity of players. (Which he actually was a part of lol)
On October 04 2012 05:18 Dodgin wrote: honestly this discussion is pretty stupid, we'll never know what would have happened because it didn't. They all had the chance to break off from kespa and try starcrat 2 but they didn't take it, their loss. Maybe they could have won 4 GSL's and made 300,000$ instead.
Yah it may be a dumb discussion to you but its still a fact.
Not much to discuss if It's a " fact "
It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him.
I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful.
lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior.
Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead.
Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003.
Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures.
Yes every player that did not play under Kespa is an amateur, this is some of the most convincing stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. You win.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious genius. This is "StarCraft". The "StarCraft" pro scene was under kespas umbrella smart one. Therefore anyone that wasn't in it prior to the release of SC2 is considered an amature in the game of starcraft. I enjoy the fact that you continue to comment back when your clearly lost the debate in my first post.
The Starcraft 2 Pro Scene is under nobodies umbrella, Kespa classifications don't mean shit. Even if they did mean anything being an " amateur " in the eyes of Kespa is irrelevant as long as you are a good player. I'm done with this conversation now as this is obviously going nowhere, if you think answering my post with
On October 04 2012 05:18 Dodgin wrote: honestly this discussion is pretty stupid, we'll never know what would have happened because it didn't. They all had the chance to break off from kespa and try starcrat 2 but they didn't take it, their loss. Maybe they could have won 4 GSL's and made 300,000$ instead.
Yah it may be a dumb discussion to you but its still a fact.
Not much to discuss if It's a " fact "
It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him.
I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful.
lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior.
Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead.
Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003.
Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures.
is a good argument then this is pointless.
BlazeFury overall argument is that it was a BW pro vs amateurs. So at the start of SCII when MVP made his switch, he was an A-teamer allbeit a shitty one. Then there were some BW legends that also switched that were either retired or rotting on benches and hardly got to play in pro league. Then you have a lot of B-teamers that switched, they ended up being MVP's biggest rivals. About 1 year into SCII ForGG was the first so called "elephent" to switch, although he had been without a BW team for a while and was practicing on his own. He was able to make Code S but never challenged for any titles in GSL. The rest of the players are amateurs (including practice partners) and foreign pros of which the majority only managed to compete on par with Korean amateurs. When you look at who MVP competed the most against in the GSL its actually former BW B-teamers which are considered BW Pro's. Yes they are a step below, many never got to see the pro stage, but as B-teamers you still competed in OSL/MSL you still were considered a professional BW player.
So BlazeFury I think is wrong when he said it was a BW pro vs amateurs. Most BW fans would label MVP as a "mediocre A-teamer" and he competed against mostly "B-teamers" that would still rape the shit out of every amateur in the foreign and korean scene.
His other point that MVP wouldnt have been as sucessful is speculation of course. However, what are the odds that a "mediocre A-teamer" lets say the 85 best BW player at the time of the switch. Would go on to win 5 titles had the 84 better BW palyers made the switch with him at the same time. The answer I think is highly unlikely. Its like if a new baseketball game gained popularity with nets that are 3 feet shorter and the a rim made 5 inches wider. Would if all the DIV II college teams switched and lets say one average DIV I college team switched. Would they 2 years later, when all the DIV I powerhouses switch still be the best?
The answer I guess depends on how different the new game is from the old game. The fact that MVP rose to the top, and that the rest of the top players consists of BW B-teamers means that they are pretty similar. I trully expect a year from now the top 20 out of 30 players in the world to be current Kespa pros.
On October 04 2012 05:18 Dodgin wrote: honestly this discussion is pretty stupid, we'll never know what would have happened because it didn't. They all had the chance to break off from kespa and try starcrat 2 but they didn't take it, their loss. Maybe they could have won 4 GSL's and made 300,000$ instead.
Yah it may be a dumb discussion to you but its still a fact.
Not much to discuss if It's a " fact "
It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him.
I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful.
lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior.
Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead.
Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003.
Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures.
Yes every player that did not play under Kespa is an amateur, this is some of the most convincing stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. You win.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious genius. This is "StarCraft". The "StarCraft" pro scene was under kespas umbrella smart one. Therefore anyone that wasn't in it prior to the release of SC2 is considered an amature in the game of starcraft. I enjoy the fact that you continue to comment back when your clearly lost the debate in my first post.
The Starcraft 2 Pro Scene is under nobodies umbrella, Kespa classifications don't mean shit. Even if they did mean anything being an " amateur " in the eyes of Kespa is irrelevant as long as you are a good player. I'm done with this conversation now as this is obviously going nowhere, if you think answering my post with
On October 04 2012 05:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:42 Dodgin wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:30 Dodgin wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:21 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:18 Dodgin wrote: honestly this discussion is pretty stupid, we'll never know what would have happened because it didn't. They all had the chance to break off from kespa and try starcrat 2 but they didn't take it, their loss. Maybe they could have won 4 GSL's and made 300,000$ instead.
Yah it may be a dumb discussion to you but its still a fact.
Not much to discuss if It's a " fact "
It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him.
I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful.
lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior.
Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead.
Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003.
Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures.
is a good argument then this is pointless.
BlazeFury overall argument is that it was a BW pro vs amateurs. So at the start of SCII when MVP made his switch, he was an A-teamer allbeit a shitty one. Then there were some BW legends that also switched that were either retired or rotting on benches and hardly got to play in pro league. Then you have a lot of B-teamers that switched, they ended up being MVP's biggest rivals. About 1 year into SCII ForGG was the first so called "elephent" to switch, although he had been without a BW team for a while and was practicing on his own. He was able to make Code S but never challenged for any titles in GSL. The rest of the players are amateurs (including practice partners) and foreign pros of which the majority only managed to compete on par with Korean amateurs. When you look at who MVP competed the most against in the GSL its actually former BW B-teamers which are considered BW Pro's. Yes they are a step below, many never got to see the pro stage, but as B-teamers you still competed in OSL/MSL you still were considered a professional BW player.
So BlazeFury I think is wrong when he said it was a BW pro vs amateurs. Most BW fans would label MVP as a "mediocre A-teamer" and he competed against mostly "B-teamers" that would still rape the shit out of every amateur in the foreign and korean scene.
His other point that MVP wouldnt have been as sucessful is speculation of course. However, what are the odds that a "mediocre A-teamer" lets say the 85 best BW player at the time of the switch. Would go on to win 5 titles had the 84 better BW palyers made the switch with him at the same time. The answer I think is highly unlikely. Its like if a new baseketball game gained popularity with nets that are 3 feet shorter and the a rim made 5 inches wider. Would if all the DIV II college teams switched and lets say one average DIV I college team switched. Would they 2 years later, when all the DIV I powerhouses switch still be the best?
The answer I guess depends on how different the new game is from the old game. The fact that MVP rose to the top, and that the rest of the top players consists of BW B-teamers means that they are pretty similar. I trully expect a year from now the top 20 out of 30 players in the world to be current Kespa pros.
This is a good post, but it brings me back to what I was saying originally which is that it doesn't matter because it did not happen and speculation is pointless. Just look to the future if you want verification of what you think would have happened earlier.
On October 03 2012 23:04 Dodgin wrote: Wow crazy results, Rain 3-0, and Mvp 3-1. I expected Symbol to win and for Rain vs Hero to be closer.
Funny thing to note, Mvp has NEVER lost in the ro8 of the GSL. He has been knocked out in every other round at some point but never the ro8.
Really? I remember sometime ago he lost in Ro4 or Ro8 against Leenock some time ago.
GSL November Ro4, that was an awesome series though, so was the Jjakji vs Leenock finals.
I still maintain that Jjakji vs Leenock G1 is possibly the most beautiful TvZ played to date.
game 7 drg vs mma?
hrmm. storyline, maybe. not in terms of apparent skill imo though
Sculp vs Symbol was better in my opinion. The match was hyped less because it was mostly an insignificant match in the GSTL as opposed to the GSL finals but in terms of gameplay I think it was the best.
On October 03 2012 23:04 Dodgin wrote: Wow crazy results, Rain 3-0, and Mvp 3-1. I expected Symbol to win and for Rain vs Hero to be closer.
Funny thing to note, Mvp has NEVER lost in the ro8 of the GSL. He has been knocked out in every other round at some point but never the ro8.
Really? I remember sometime ago he lost in Ro4 or Ro8 against Leenock some time ago.
GSL November Ro4, that was an awesome series though, so was the Jjakji vs Leenock finals.
I still maintain that Jjakji vs Leenock G1 is possibly the most beautiful TvZ played to date.
game 7 drg vs mma?
hrmm. storyline, maybe. not in terms of apparent skill imo though
the army movements in jjakji vs leenock were beautiful but mma vs drg had near flawless play from both players, even towards the very end of the game (where leenock faltered). The tech transitions from early-mid-late game were so smooth and well-timed and the best drop play and best drop defense was shown in that game. But ofc that's just imo
On October 04 2012 05:18 Dodgin wrote: honestly this discussion is pretty stupid, we'll never know what would have happened because it didn't. They all had the chance to break off from kespa and try starcrat 2 but they didn't take it, their loss. Maybe they could have won 4 GSL's and made 300,000$ instead.
Yah it may be a dumb discussion to you but its still a fact.
Not much to discuss if It's a " fact "
It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him.
I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful.
lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior.
Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead.
Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003.
Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures.
Yes every player that did not play under Kespa is an amateur, this is some of the most convincing stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. You win.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious genius. This is "StarCraft". The "StarCraft" pro scene was under kespas umbrella smart one. Therefore anyone that wasn't in it prior to the release of SC2 is considered an amature in the game of starcraft. I enjoy the fact that you continue to comment back when your clearly lost the debate in my first post.
The Starcraft 2 Pro Scene is under nobodies umbrella, Kespa classifications don't mean shit. Even if they did mean anything being an " amateur " in the eyes of Kespa is irrelevant as long as you are a good player. I'm done with this conversation now as this is obviously going nowhere, if you think answering my post with
On October 04 2012 05:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:42 Dodgin wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:30 Dodgin wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:21 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:18 Dodgin wrote: honestly this discussion is pretty stupid, we'll never know what would have happened because it didn't. They all had the chance to break off from kespa and try starcrat 2 but they didn't take it, their loss. Maybe they could have won 4 GSL's and made 300,000$ instead.
Yah it may be a dumb discussion to you but its still a fact.
Not much to discuss if It's a " fact "
It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him.
I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful.
lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior.
Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead.
Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003.
Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures.
is a good argument then this is pointless.
BlazeFury overall argument is that it was a BW pro vs amateurs. So at the start of SCII when MVP made his switch, he was an A-teamer allbeit a shitty one. Then there were some BW legends that also switched that were either retired or rotting on benches and hardly got to play in pro league. Then you have a lot of B-teamers that switched, they ended up being MVP's biggest rivals. About 1 year into SCII ForGG was the first so called "elephent" to switch, although he had been without a BW team for a while and was practicing on his own. He was able to make Code S but never challenged for any titles in GSL. The rest of the players are amateurs (including practice partners) and foreign pros of which the majority only managed to compete on par with Korean amateurs. When you look at who MVP competed the most against in the GSL its actually former BW B-teamers which are considered BW Pro's. Yes they are a step below, many never got to see the pro stage, but as B-teamers you still competed in OSL/MSL you still were considered a professional BW player.
So BlazeFury I think is wrong when he said it was a BW pro vs amateurs. Most BW fans would label MVP as a "mediocre A-teamer" and he competed against mostly "B-teamers" that would still rape the shit out of every amateur in the foreign and korean scene.
His other point that MVP wouldnt have been as sucessful is speculation of course. However, what are the odds that a "mediocre A-teamer" lets say the 85 best BW player at the time of the switch. Would go on to win 5 titles had the 84 better BW palyers made the switch with him at the same time. The answer I think is highly unlikely. Its like if a new baseketball game gained popularity with nets that are 3 feet shorter and the a rim made 5 inches wider. Would if all the DIV II college teams switched and lets say one average DIV I college team switched. Would they 2 years later, when all the DIV I powerhouses switch still be the best?
The answer I guess depends on how different the new game is from the old game. The fact that MVP rose to the top, and that the rest of the top players consists of BW B-teamers means that they are pretty similar. I trully expect a year from now the top 20 out of 30 players in the world to be current Kespa pros.
Pretty much this. However, when I said "amature" that was anybody who wasn't considered a "pro". The reason I brought up the point in the first place was because somebody had said that MVP winning 5 GSL titles or something like that would give him the right to obtain "bonjwa" status. When in reality, he didn't play the highest caliber of players in those GSL's to obtain such a title. One thing to note is that MVP was the one with the best pro league record out of the first "kespa" players to make the transition.
On October 03 2012 22:59 Ace1123 wrote: YEY MVP! Please 5th ever GSL Champ and engrave your name in the SC history forever!
I will say that MVP is extremely lucky that the Kespa players didn't transition sooner.
Flash was really lucky they didn't transition sooner... yeah that makes about as much sense as your claim. They didn't transition, so it does not matter. MVP was a very solid player near the end of his BW career. He has wins over Stork, Best, Jangbi, Effort, Flash, Mind, Snow,2-0 over Baby in MSL ro16. He was a solid A teamer at that point.
Uh no nick, it doesn't make as much sense as my claim. MVP was lucky in the sense that the level of competition was much easier thus allowing him to get so many titles. If the Kespa players transitioned as soon as he did, the level of competition would have surely been much harder. He was basically a Brood War pro going up against amatures. Your post only confirms my statement. If he gets more titles now that the level of competiton has risen, I will be impressed. Also MVP doesn't have "wins" over flash. He has one win, with losses that trail it.
Just like Boxer is "lucky" to start the game early 10 years ago. He certainly doesn't possess the skill level of Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, or even Baby. But it doesn't matter, he's still the most iconic e-sports figure on this planet.
Right, Boxer is "lucky" he wasnt born 10 years later. LOL Flash is lucky the maps weren't terribly imbalanced aginst terran either or he wouldn't have won shit. Lets deal with reality and not with what ifs. MVP beat the competition put in front of him enough to be the best sc2 player to date with the most results. He is in another semifinals, these are facts. Who knows MVP couldve still won all those leagues with KESPA in them, we don't know. Also winning 1 game in a best of 5 vs a prime Flash is still one hell of an accomplishment.
I think I am going to follow that one gentleman's advice and ignore you though. People have been impressed by his skill and are glad he is still doing well. I love KESPA players too and think we will see a lot from them, but don't be an ass because MVP isnt part of your elite fraternity of players. (Which he actually was a part of lol)
Man, didn't you see the quote on "lucky"? My point is, mentioning luck is the most pathetic thing to say in competitive scene.
On October 04 2012 05:21 BlazeFury01 wrote: [quote] Yah it may be a dumb discussion to you but its still a fact.
Not much to discuss if It's a " fact "
It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him.
I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful.
lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior.
Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead.
Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003.
Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures.
Yes every player that did not play under Kespa is an amateur, this is some of the most convincing stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. You win.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious genius. This is "StarCraft". The "StarCraft" pro scene was under kespas umbrella smart one. Therefore anyone that wasn't in it prior to the release of SC2 is considered an amature in the game of starcraft. I enjoy the fact that you continue to comment back when your clearly lost the debate in my first post.
The Starcraft 2 Pro Scene is under nobodies umbrella, Kespa classifications don't mean shit. Even if they did mean anything being an " amateur " in the eyes of Kespa is irrelevant as long as you are a good player. I'm done with this conversation now as this is obviously going nowhere, if you think answering my post with
On October 04 2012 05:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:42 Dodgin wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:30 Dodgin wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:21 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:18 Dodgin wrote: honestly this discussion is pretty stupid, we'll never know what would have happened because it didn't. They all had the chance to break off from kespa and try starcrat 2 but they didn't take it, their loss. Maybe they could have won 4 GSL's and made 300,000$ instead.
Yah it may be a dumb discussion to you but its still a fact.
Not much to discuss if It's a " fact "
It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him.
I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful.
lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior.
Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead.
Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003.
Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures.
is a good argument then this is pointless.
BlazeFury overall argument is that it was a BW pro vs amateurs. So at the start of SCII when MVP made his switch, he was an A-teamer allbeit a shitty one. Then there were some BW legends that also switched that were either retired or rotting on benches and hardly got to play in pro league. Then you have a lot of B-teamers that switched, they ended up being MVP's biggest rivals. About 1 year into SCII ForGG was the first so called "elephent" to switch, although he had been without a BW team for a while and was practicing on his own. He was able to make Code S but never challenged for any titles in GSL. The rest of the players are amateurs (including practice partners) and foreign pros of which the majority only managed to compete on par with Korean amateurs. When you look at who MVP competed the most against in the GSL its actually former BW B-teamers which are considered BW Pro's. Yes they are a step below, many never got to see the pro stage, but as B-teamers you still competed in OSL/MSL you still were considered a professional BW player.
So BlazeFury I think is wrong when he said it was a BW pro vs amateurs. Most BW fans would label MVP as a "mediocre A-teamer" and he competed against mostly "B-teamers" that would still rape the shit out of every amateur in the foreign and korean scene.
His other point that MVP wouldnt have been as sucessful is speculation of course. However, what are the odds that a "mediocre A-teamer" lets say the 85 best BW player at the time of the switch. Would go on to win 5 titles had the 84 better BW palyers made the switch with him at the same time. The answer I think is highly unlikely. Its like if a new baseketball game gained popularity with nets that are 3 feet shorter and the a rim made 5 inches wider. Would if all the DIV II college teams switched and lets say one average DIV I college team switched. Would they 2 years later, when all the DIV I powerhouses switch still be the best?
The answer I guess depends on how different the new game is from the old game. The fact that MVP rose to the top, and that the rest of the top players consists of BW B-teamers means that they are pretty similar. I trully expect a year from now the top 20 out of 30 players in the world to be current Kespa pros.
Pretty much this. However, when I said "amature" that was anybody who wasn't considered a "pro". The reason I brought up the point in the first place was because somebody had said that MVP winning 5 GSL titles or something like that would give him the right to obtain "bonjwa" status. When in reality, he didn't play the highest caliber of players in those GSL's to obtain such a title. One thing to note is that MVP was the one with the best pro league record out of the first "kespa" players to make the transition.
I know this may be hard to understand for some people but SC2 and BW are different games. Its like comparing a field hockey player with an Ice Hockey player it's just dumb. Also a player can only be compared against the people he competed against. This is what pretty much anyone does when they talk about sports legends you don't see people go "oh if babe ruth played to day he would suck" all that matters is how dominant they were against their peers. Also is there some reason BW fans need to keep on reminding people how much better "their" players are?
It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him.
I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful.
lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior.
Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead.
Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003.
Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures.
Yes every player that did not play under Kespa is an amateur, this is some of the most convincing stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. You win.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious genius. This is "StarCraft". The "StarCraft" pro scene was under kespas umbrella smart one. Therefore anyone that wasn't in it prior to the release of SC2 is considered an amature in the game of starcraft. I enjoy the fact that you continue to comment back when your clearly lost the debate in my first post.
The Starcraft 2 Pro Scene is under nobodies umbrella, Kespa classifications don't mean shit. Even if they did mean anything being an " amateur " in the eyes of Kespa is irrelevant as long as you are a good player. I'm done with this conversation now as this is obviously going nowhere, if you think answering my post with
On October 04 2012 05:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:42 Dodgin wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:30 Dodgin wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:21 BlazeFury01 wrote:
On October 04 2012 05:18 Dodgin wrote: honestly this discussion is pretty stupid, we'll never know what would have happened because it didn't. They all had the chance to break off from kespa and try starcrat 2 but they didn't take it, their loss. Maybe they could have won 4 GSL's and made 300,000$ instead.
Yah it may be a dumb discussion to you but its still a fact.
Not much to discuss if It's a " fact "
It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him.
I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful.
lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior.
Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead.
Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003.
Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures.
is a good argument then this is pointless.
BlazeFury overall argument is that it was a BW pro vs amateurs. So at the start of SCII when MVP made his switch, he was an A-teamer allbeit a shitty one. Then there were some BW legends that also switched that were either retired or rotting on benches and hardly got to play in pro league. Then you have a lot of B-teamers that switched, they ended up being MVP's biggest rivals. About 1 year into SCII ForGG was the first so called "elephent" to switch, although he had been without a BW team for a while and was practicing on his own. He was able to make Code S but never challenged for any titles in GSL. The rest of the players are amateurs (including practice partners) and foreign pros of which the majority only managed to compete on par with Korean amateurs. When you look at who MVP competed the most against in the GSL its actually former BW B-teamers which are considered BW Pro's. Yes they are a step below, many never got to see the pro stage, but as B-teamers you still competed in OSL/MSL you still were considered a professional BW player.
So BlazeFury I think is wrong when he said it was a BW pro vs amateurs. Most BW fans would label MVP as a "mediocre A-teamer" and he competed against mostly "B-teamers" that would still rape the shit out of every amateur in the foreign and korean scene.
His other point that MVP wouldnt have been as sucessful is speculation of course. However, what are the odds that a "mediocre A-teamer" lets say the 85 best BW player at the time of the switch. Would go on to win 5 titles had the 84 better BW palyers made the switch with him at the same time. The answer I think is highly unlikely. Its like if a new baseketball game gained popularity with nets that are 3 feet shorter and the a rim made 5 inches wider. Would if all the DIV II college teams switched and lets say one average DIV I college team switched. Would they 2 years later, when all the DIV I powerhouses switch still be the best?
The answer I guess depends on how different the new game is from the old game. The fact that MVP rose to the top, and that the rest of the top players consists of BW B-teamers means that they are pretty similar. I trully expect a year from now the top 20 out of 30 players in the world to be current Kespa pros.
Pretty much this. However, when I said "amature" that was anybody who wasn't considered a "pro". The reason I brought up the point in the first place was because somebody had said that MVP winning 5 GSL titles or something like that would give him the right to obtain "bonjwa" status. When in reality, he didn't play the highest caliber of players in those GSL's to obtain such a title. One thing to note is that MVP was the one with the best pro league record out of the first "kespa" players to make the transition.
I know this may be hard to understand for some people but SC2 and BW are different games. Its like comparing a field hockey player with an Ice Hockey player it's just dumb. Also a player can only be compared against the people he competed against. This is what pretty much anyone does when they talk about sports legends you don't see people go "oh if babe ruth played to day he would suck" all that matters is how dominant they were against their peers. Also is there some reason BW fans need to keep on reminding people how much better "their" players are?
The two games are definitely different. However, the results show that the lower tier BW players are the best in SC2 and also the fact that Kespa players are already beating these players with less than a 6 months of practice. Nobody even brought up that the Brood War players were better. I just simply stated the obvious: MVP probably wouldn't have won 5 GSL's if Kespa transitioned sooner. It's all speculation though. But, based off the bolded quote, It's quite logical.
EPT
