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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
You are all speculating out of your asses.
Just stop it and enjoy the damn games
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With regard to the chess analogies i get the feeling that if 1.F4 or 1.E4 E5 2. Nf3 f5!, or similar out of favor openings, are played on a 14 year old chess prodigy in competition he will react just fine.
I assume every intelligent reader of the thread has noticed with a crushing sense of irony the inability of anybody to make a perfectly positive or at least strong positive correlation between their laughably simplistic "what-if" analysis and reality. The reason of course is the two year time gap and all the changes that went with it (nobody of course mentions the amazing concept that SC1 skill levels could have declined in the two years! blasphemy!!)
Food for thought: if a positive correlation existed surely the best of the Kespa players would be performing the best OF the Kespa players? I didn't follow SC1 but i did watch the SC2 matches of "Jaedong" with some interest given the level of hype surrounding him. Needless to say i was disappointed by his frankly horribly bad level of play. As I am paying to watch the GSL i don't appreciate having to watch trash like that get a free ride that i have to pay for. There is no need to have an opinion on the latter, just go watch the VoDs.
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On October 03 2012 18:47 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 18:42 bgx wrote:On October 03 2012 18:39 Dauntless wrote:On October 03 2012 18:36 megacrack wrote:
for the first time.. im loving pvp.. it seems it would be huge upset if hero wins.. Huge upset? They're evenly matched.. My question though, is where did all the Rain fans come from? People that used to root for MC, until he fell off? Turning the cape after the wind? Why are you shocked? He is the first promising royal roader of SC2, and to add he is royal roading 2 most prestigious, tournaments. GSL has the experience and infrastructure, and the OSL is just a battle of big names, it's not a demonstration of skill for the most part.
what
On October 03 2012 19:32 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 19:31 zerious wrote:On October 03 2012 19:30 opterown wrote:On October 03 2012 19:29 xrapture wrote:On October 03 2012 19:27 Talack wrote:On October 03 2012 19:25 Fionn wrote:
It's kinda annoying saying Rain = KeSPA.
That's like going Mvp = all GSL players or Taeja = all GSL players.
He's a special player. agreed. Rain is the "only" kespa player showing such amazing results. everyone else is looking mediocre currently. Rain is an outlier and a freaking insane one at that Flash, baby, last, bosus look mediocre? well certainly not on rain's level haha no one is on Rain's level Cept LG-IMHappy obviously =P EDIT: And CreatorPrime
and line is on seeds level
On October 03 2012 19:32 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 19:31 zerious wrote:On October 03 2012 19:30 opterown wrote:On October 03 2012 19:29 xrapture wrote:On October 03 2012 19:27 Talack wrote:On October 03 2012 19:25 Fionn wrote:
It's kinda annoying saying Rain = KeSPA.
That's like going Mvp = all GSL players or Taeja = all GSL players.
He's a special player. agreed. Rain is the "only" kespa player showing such amazing results. everyone else is looking mediocre currently. Rain is an outlier and a freaking insane one at that Flash, baby, last, bosus look mediocre? well certainly not on rain's level haha no one is on Rain's level Don't be so sure.:D I have seen many people said something like this about many players then...
then what? the player loses? and how is that relevant to this statement?
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opterown
Australia54783 Posts
On October 04 2012 15:53 fakgfdgfdh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 18:47 InoyouS2 wrote:On October 03 2012 18:42 bgx wrote:On October 03 2012 18:39 Dauntless wrote:On October 03 2012 18:36 megacrack wrote:
for the first time.. im loving pvp.. it seems it would be huge upset if hero wins.. Huge upset? They're evenly matched.. My question though, is where did all the Rain fans come from? People that used to root for MC, until he fell off? Turning the cape after the wind? Why are you shocked? He is the first promising royal roader of SC2, and to add he is royal roading 2 most prestigious, tournaments. GSL has the experience and infrastructure, and the OSL is just a battle of big names, it's not a demonstration of skill for the most part. what Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 19:32 bittman wrote:On October 03 2012 19:31 zerious wrote:On October 03 2012 19:30 opterown wrote:On October 03 2012 19:29 xrapture wrote:On October 03 2012 19:27 Talack wrote:On October 03 2012 19:25 Fionn wrote:
It's kinda annoying saying Rain = KeSPA.
That's like going Mvp = all GSL players or Taeja = all GSL players.
He's a special player. agreed. Rain is the "only" kespa player showing such amazing results. everyone else is looking mediocre currently. Rain is an outlier and a freaking insane one at that Flash, baby, last, bosus look mediocre? well certainly not on rain's level haha no one is on Rain's level Cept LG-IMHappy obviously =P EDIT: And CreatorPrime and line is on seeds level Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 19:32 Wildmoon wrote:On October 03 2012 19:31 zerious wrote:On October 03 2012 19:30 opterown wrote:On October 03 2012 19:29 xrapture wrote:On October 03 2012 19:27 Talack wrote:On October 03 2012 19:25 Fionn wrote:
It's kinda annoying saying Rain = KeSPA.
That's like going Mvp = all GSL players or Taeja = all GSL players.
He's a special player. agreed. Rain is the "only" kespa player showing such amazing results. everyone else is looking mediocre currently. Rain is an outlier and a freaking insane one at that Flash, baby, last, bosus look mediocre? well certainly not on rain's level haha no one is on Rain's level Don't be so sure.:D I have seen many people said something like this about many players then... then what? the player loses? and how is that relevant to this statement?
quality post, would read again
seed is much better than line, lol
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To think how so many people thought Liquid finals were possible lol.
I guess they hoped for the volatility of PvP
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On October 04 2012 05:39 letian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 00:48 Nick_54 wrote:On October 03 2012 23:01 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 03 2012 22:59 Ace1123 wrote:
YEY MVP! Please 5th ever GSL Champ and engrave your name in the SC history forever! I will say that MVP is extremely lucky that the Kespa players didn't transition sooner. Flash was really lucky they didn't transition sooner... yeah that makes about as much sense as your claim. They didn't transition, so it does not matter. MVP was a very solid player near the end of his BW career. He has wins over Stork, Best, Jangbi, Effort, Flash, Mind, Snow,2-0 over Baby in MSL ro16. He was a solid A teamer at that point. MVP was never a significant player to keep track of in BW. 39 % win rate is a classic no-name progamer record. And nowhere it is solid. At least he didn't choke and was an a-teamer full time as far as I know. Still he didn't have that many games played. Not a single BW fan would tell that MVP was a good player. He was mediocre and ok at best. And as far as I know he was the first pro to transfer to SC2. He certainly did his SC2 homework well. But that's about it. I sincerely hope that kespa player shall open a completely new chapter for SC2 skill level
everyone i know would tell me mvp was a good player
On October 04 2012 08:30 MONXY FIST wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 08:13 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 07:08 ChoiSulli wrote:On October 04 2012 06:20 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 06:12 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 06:08 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 05:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:42 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 05:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:30 Dodgin wrote:
[quote]
Not much to discuss if It's a " fact "
It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him.
I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful. lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior. Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead. Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003. Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures. Yes every player that did not play under Kespa is an amateur, this is some of the most convincing stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read. You win. Thanks for pointing out the obvious genius. This is "StarCraft". The "StarCraft" pro scene was under kespas umbrella smart one. Therefore anyone that wasn't in it prior to the release of SC2 is considered an amature in the game of starcraft. I enjoy the fact that you continue to comment back when your clearly lost the debate in my first post. The Starcraft 2 Pro Scene is under nobodies umbrella, Kespa classifications don't mean shit. Even if they did mean anything being an " amateur " in the eyes of Kespa is irrelevant as long as you are a good player. I'm done with this conversation now as this is obviously going nowhere, if you think answering my post with On October 04 2012 05:44 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:42 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 05:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:30 Dodgin wrote:On October 04 2012 05:21 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 04 2012 05:18 Dodgin wrote:
honestly this discussion is pretty stupid, we'll never know what would have happened because it didn't. They all had the chance to break off from kespa and try starcrat 2 but they didn't take it, their loss. Maybe they could have won 4 GSL's and made 300,000$ instead. Yah it may be a dumb discussion to you but its still a fact. Not much to discuss if It's a " fact " It's pointless fictional speculation, It's like asking if Nada would still win 3 OSL's and 3 MSL's if 2010 Flash went back in time to challenge him. I mean if you feel like attempting to devalue his accomplishments because " the competition was a farce! " then cool go ahead, but that's pretty disrespectful. lol flash and Nada were from two different timeliness and eras when MVP transitioned there were a lot of people from the same era that were better then him that hadn't transitioned. I like MVP a lot and if you think that I am trying to devalue his accomplishments, I'm not. In reality he has won many championships, yes. But did those championships have the best of the best? No. It's much like Roy Jones junior. Time periods are irrelevant if you're going to argue about fiction, if they had been playing Starcraft 2 but only between themselves in Kespa leagues and Mvp won all his championships in leagues where they didn't compete I would agree with that. They were not Starcraft 2 players at the time, you can try to guess and assume which of them would have been the best at Starcraft 2 in 2010/2011 but that's pointless. I don't see people arguing about if Moon or Grubby would have won OSL's had they played Brood War instead. Sure the competition would have been tougher, perhaps Mvp would overcome it and win anyway, perhaps he would never win a single GSL. Like I said before might as well argue about Nada vs Flash in 2003. Like I said, it was a Brood War pro vs amatures. is a good argument then this is pointless. BlazeFury overall argument is that it was a BW pro vs amateurs. So at the start of SCII when MVP made his switch, he was an A-teamer allbeit a shitty one. Then there were some BW legends that also switched that were either retired or rotting on benches and hardly got to play in pro league. Then you have a lot of B-teamers that switched, they ended up being MVP's biggest rivals. About 1 year into SCII ForGG was the first so called "elephent" to switch, although he had been without a BW team for a while and was practicing on his own. He was able to make Code S but never challenged for any titles in GSL. The rest of the players are amateurs (including practice partners) and foreign pros of which the majority only managed to compete on par with Korean amateurs. When you look at who MVP competed the most against in the GSL its actually former BW B-teamers which are considered BW Pro's. Yes they are a step below, many never got to see the pro stage, but as B-teamers you still competed in OSL/MSL you still were considered a professional BW player. So BlazeFury I think is wrong when he said it was a BW pro vs amateurs. Most BW fans would label MVP as a "mediocre A-teamer" and he competed against mostly "B-teamers" that would still rape the shit out of every amateur in the foreign and korean scene. His other point that MVP wouldnt have been as sucessful is speculation of course. However, what are the odds that a "mediocre A-teamer" lets say the 85 best BW player at the time of the switch. Would go on to win 5 titles had the 84 better BW palyers made the switch with him at the same time. The answer I think is highly unlikely. Its like if a new baseketball game gained popularity with nets that are 3 feet shorter and the a rim made 5 inches wider. Would if all the DIV II college teams switched and lets say one average DIV I college team switched. Would they 2 years later, when all the DIV I powerhouses switch still be the best? The answer I guess depends on how different the new game is from the old game. The fact that MVP rose to the top, and that the rest of the top players consists of BW B-teamers means that they are pretty similar. I trully expect a year from now the top 20 out of 30 players in the world to be current Kespa pros. Pretty much this. However, when I said "amature" that was anybody who wasn't considered a "pro". The reason I brought up the point in the first place was because somebody had said that MVP winning 5 GSL titles or something like that would give him the right to obtain "bonjwa" status. When in reality, he didn't play the highest caliber of players in those GSL's to obtain such a title. One thing to note is that MVP was the one with the best pro league record out of the first "kespa" players to make the transition. Also is there some reason BW fans need to keep on reminding people how much better "their" players are?
probably because such a high percentage of people keep making insane comments of all kinds everywhere
On October 04 2012 13:46 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 13:42 oneofthem wrote:
i don't think mvp would have won more than one tournament had he transitioned at the same time as the other pros. this is speaking as a big fan of his play.
the stuff he does well are things that a team pros are required to have as a matter of basic fundamentals. there are players with better mechanics and multitasking out there, and even though he is a strategic mastermind, there are also betters in that regard. yes, but these 'a-team' pros have had a decent amount of sc2 playtime already and while some are doing well (e.g. bysun, flash) some are not doing so well (e.g. jaedong, jangbi) whereas some lower-tier (not s-level e.g. TLBS) players like roro are doing quite well, better than TBLS are. maybe it really does require a different skillset, and some people are more suited for certain games. hard work can close a lot of that gap, but not all of it.
yep. OR maybe you have no sources for this
On October 04 2012 14:27 StickyIcky wrote:
With regard to the chess analogies i get the feeling that if 1.F4 or 1.E4 E5 2. Nf3 f5!, or similar out of favor openings, are played on a 14 year old chess prodigy in competition he will react just fine.
I assume every intelligent reader of the thread has noticed with a crushing sense of irony the inability of anybody to make a perfectly positive or at least strong positive correlation between their laughably simplistic "what-if" analysis and reality. The reason of course is the two year time gap and all the changes that went with it (nobody of course mentions the amazing concept that SC1 skill levels could have declined in the two years! blasphemy!!)
Food for thought: if a positive correlation existed surely the best of the Kespa players would be performing the best OF the Kespa players? I didn't follow SC1 but i did watch the SC2 matches of "Jaedong" with some interest given the level of hype surrounding him. Needless to say i was disappointed by his frankly horribly bad level of play. As I am paying to watch the GSL i don't appreciate having to watch trash like that get a free ride that i have to pay for. There is no need to have an opinion on the latter, just go watch the VoDs.
thats cute how smart you think you are. or one can make some basic comparisons and prove that theres no comparison between the two sets of players.
they dont mention that sc1 skill levels could have declined because they havent. its the opposit. sc1 players have kept practicing more than the switchovers.
you can keep thinking jaedong is worse all you want.
On October 04 2012 15:55 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 15:53 fakgfdgfdh wrote:On October 03 2012 18:47 InoyouS2 wrote:On October 03 2012 18:42 bgx wrote:On October 03 2012 18:39 Dauntless wrote:On October 03 2012 18:36 megacrack wrote:
for the first time.. im loving pvp.. it seems it would be huge upset if hero wins.. Huge upset? They're evenly matched.. My question though, is where did all the Rain fans come from? People that used to root for MC, until he fell off? Turning the cape after the wind? Why are you shocked? He is the first promising royal roader of SC2, and to add he is royal roading 2 most prestigious, tournaments. GSL has the experience and infrastructure, and the OSL is just a battle of big names, it's not a demonstration of skill for the most part. what On October 03 2012 19:32 bittman wrote:On October 03 2012 19:31 zerious wrote:On October 03 2012 19:30 opterown wrote:On October 03 2012 19:29 xrapture wrote:On October 03 2012 19:27 Talack wrote:On October 03 2012 19:25 Fionn wrote:
It's kinda annoying saying Rain = KeSPA.
That's like going Mvp = all GSL players or Taeja = all GSL players.
He's a special player. agreed. Rain is the "only" kespa player showing such amazing results. everyone else is looking mediocre currently. Rain is an outlier and a freaking insane one at that Flash, baby, last, bosus look mediocre? well certainly not on rain's level haha no one is on Rain's level Cept LG-IMHappy obviously =P EDIT: And CreatorPrime and line is on seeds level On October 03 2012 19:32 Wildmoon wrote:On October 03 2012 19:31 zerious wrote:On October 03 2012 19:30 opterown wrote:On October 03 2012 19:29 xrapture wrote:On October 03 2012 19:27 Talack wrote:On October 03 2012 19:25 Fionn wrote:
It's kinda annoying saying Rain = KeSPA.
That's like going Mvp = all GSL players or Taeja = all GSL players.
He's a special player. agreed. Rain is the "only" kespa player showing such amazing results. everyone else is looking mediocre currently. Rain is an outlier and a freaking insane one at that Flash, baby, last, bosus look mediocre? well certainly not on rain's level haha no one is on Rain's level Don't be so sure.:D I have seen many people said something like this about many players then... then what? the player loses? and how is that relevant to this statement? quality post, would read again seed is much better than line, lol
yes, it was quality.
how does this forum always miss sarcasm? he was just saying that if whenever any player ever gets a win against anyone, thats proof that that player is on at least the same level as the player he beat when its obviously false.
and on your post earlier in the tree, rain has admitted himself hes not the best kespa
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opterown
Australia54783 Posts
On October 05 2012 08:42 fakgfdgfdh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 13:46 opterown wrote:On October 04 2012 13:42 oneofthem wrote:
i don't think mvp would have won more than one tournament had he transitioned at the same time as the other pros. this is speaking as a big fan of his play.
the stuff he does well are things that a team pros are required to have as a matter of basic fundamentals. there are players with better mechanics and multitasking out there, and even though he is a strategic mastermind, there are also betters in that regard. yes, but these 'a-team' pros have had a decent amount of sc2 playtime already and while some are doing well (e.g. bysun, flash) some are not doing so well (e.g. jaedong, jangbi) whereas some lower-tier (not s-level e.g. TLBS) players like roro are doing quite well, better than TBLS are. maybe it really does require a different skillset, and some people are more suited for certain games. hard work can close a lot of that gap, but not all of it. yep. OR maybe you have no sources for this
??? i'm talking about results, which are apparent
it would be natural to expect the best of the kespa BW players would be the best sc2 players (if the things about talent, hard work etc were true), but this isn't the case. rain was good in BW, but not this dominating relatively. same with roro. players like jaedong, jangbi who did very well in BW are not doing as well in sc2. so it seems that just talent/hard work isn't everything
;p
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
^^ Too lazy to quote your post properly, but if you want sources for how players have been performing according to TLPD...
Stork: 8-3
Flash: 15-12
Bisu: 3-6
Jaedog: 15-22
Fantasy: 8-3
Jangbi: 6-5
55-51, 51.89% winrate
BeSt: 9-8
RorO: 22-13
EffOrt: 15-15
hero[join]: 20-9
Trap: 13-5
BaBy: 10-9
sHy: 11-2
Flying: 11-7
111-68, 62.01% winrate
The non-TBLS+Jangbi+Fantasy players are just the more notable Kespa players, though I did skip a couple who haven't had many games or don't have an ELO yet. I also excluded By.Sun because he is an obvious outlier. I'd say adding a few more players should drop the winrate by about 5%. Still, that would mean that the greats are winning 5% less, at least. Whether or not that is significant is up to you.
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EPT
