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On September 02 2012 03:10 CosmicSpiral wrote: Keen solid? That's not even what Keen says about himself.
I think there are two ways to look at it. If you look at how he plays from game to game, from match to match, I would say he is pretty inconsistent. If you look at fx his GSL trajectory though, he seems almost a bit stuck in place, somewhere in between Code A and S.
On September 02 2012 03:15 Pure-SC2 wrote: Does anyone else have stuttering problems with TSL broadcasts? The few I've watched this TSL have all stuttered and its just started doing it now
my computer stutters on 480 and above. Try 360 or 240.
On September 02 2012 03:10 CosmicSpiral wrote: Keen solid? That's not even what Keen says about himself.
I think there are two ways to look at it. If you look at how he plays from game to game, from match to match, I would say he is pretty inconsistent. If you look at fx his GSL trajectory though, he seems almost a bit stuck in place, somewhere in between Code A and S.
He solid in terms of staying in GSL, but as a huge fan of his I would describe him as pretty damn streaky.
On September 02 2012 03:10 CosmicSpiral wrote: Keen solid? That's not even what Keen says about himself.
I think there are two ways to look at it. If you look at how he plays from game to game, from match to match, I would say he is pretty inconsistent. If you look at fx his GSL trajectory though, he seems almost a bit stuck in place, somewhere in between Code A and S.
From what I recall from his interviews, he seems to be a very emotional player who literally rides his up and down periods.
On September 02 2012 03:10 CosmicSpiral wrote: Keen solid? That's not even what Keen says about himself.
I think there are two ways to look at it. If you look at how he plays from game to game, from match to match, I would say he is pretty inconsistent. If you look at fx his GSL trajectory though, he seems almost a bit stuck in place, somewhere in between Code A and S.
He solid in terms of staying in GSL, but as a huge fan of his I would describe him as pretty damn streaky.
I definitely agree.
Also, that looked like the easiest hold in the history of 11/11s.
On September 02 2012 03:20 rogzardo wrote: shouldn't have waited so long to start a bunker
he pulled 3 extra scvs way too early. he had no minerals for it.
Keen should have had that easy with Life completely in the dark for that long, if he didn't pull those scvs he would have had a bunker completing by the time the first Drone discovered the rush.
to be fair. it's really difficult to split non stim marines on the fly. he should have used the medivac to pick up, but Life was already on the ball and target firing with the queens.
On September 02 2012 03:24 Gamegene wrote: to be fair. it's really difficult to split non stim marines on the fly. he should have used the medivac to pick up, but Life was already on the ball and target firing with the queens.
maybe on the fly but he could have at least pre split for the chance there may be banelings. If Taeja or MKP was executing that attack it would have been 2 times more powerful.
On September 02 2012 03:34 Rain.100 wrote: so strange how terran favored maps like antiga shipyard have 50:50 stats
Not really when you consider how long the map has been around for and all the balance swings it's had.
Also, recent meta has T going for late game as well and Z doing quite well with a quick hive tech on three bases, so T would want to take a 4th as well which is just as hard for them to take as for Z, so it all boils down who holds the middle. It makes for a very balanced map right now.
I'm rooting for Life but I honestly thought Keen would have the edge. I'm impressed with how well Life is doing. Keen hasn't looked strong in either game yet.
On September 02 2012 03:44 Sooooil wrote: keen just didn't build units... super greedy style
You don't build marines so you can get the early third. It works against everything that is not a muta rush, and nobody else actually uses that the latter these days.
Coming back from playing football and seeing they've got Artosis to cast the Semis. Nice move TSL, now hopefully enjoying a creator rampage later on :-)
EDIT:
On September 02 2012 03:46 MuseMike wrote: I never knew how many maps were Zerg favored, interesting stats.
the big thing to point out here is that the terrible terran favored map Antiga has a huge 51% winrate for terran
Keen is a strange player....I never know what to expect from him. Good day Keen provides good games and a nice show. Bad day Keen is a WO for most competent players :s
On September 02 2012 03:46 MuseMike wrote: I never knew how many maps were Zerg favored, interesting stats.
Really? It's been pretty obvious to me. When maps are zerg favored the community LOVES it! But when Antiga is favored 51 to 49 in terrans favor, zergs on TL go fucking apeshit
On September 02 2012 03:44 Sooooil wrote: keen just didn't build units... super greedy style
You don't build marines so you can get the early third. It works against everything that is not a muta rush, and nobody else actually uses that the latter these days.
Life does this all the time though.
I think scouting no third with his initial hellions and seeing the gas timing at the natural should be setting alarm bells off all around in Keen's head. Felt like he was just on autopilot that game >_<
On September 02 2012 03:48 KobraKay wrote: Keen is a strange player....I never know what to expect from him. Good day Keen provides good games and a nice show. Bad day Keen is a WO for most competent players :s
Keen isn't playing awful, maybe not as good as usual. Life is just a much better player.
On September 02 2012 03:44 Sooooil wrote: keen just didn't build units... super greedy style
You don't build marines so you can get the early third. It works against everything that is not a muta rush, and nobody else actually uses that the latter these days.
Life does this all the time though.
I think scouting no third with his initial hellions and seeing the gas timing at the natural should be setting alarm bells off all around in Keen's head. Felt like he was just on autopilot that game >_<
He didn't see the fourth gas nor did he see the gases in the main. If it was an infestor build and Keen responded like it was a muta build, he would die. And Life does do 2 base infestor builds from time to time.
I'm afraid Creator vs Sting will be equally one-sided TSL had bad, bad luck with its player field this time, all fan favorites eliminated early or didn't qualify, and some not-so-good players making it deep for different reasons. Ah well, Artosis and Apollo make me enjoy one-sided games anyways.
Only 2 maps favour Terran and only by 2% - Metropolis favoured Zerg by 22% LOL. Easiest race to play plus favourable maps...how easier can this game get for Zerg?
On September 02 2012 04:10 ACrow wrote: I'm afraid Creator vs Sting will be equally one-sided TSL had bad, bad luck with its player field this time, all fan favorites eliminated early or didn't qualify, and some not-so-good players making it deep for different reasons. Ah well, Artosis and Apollo make me enjoy one-sided games anyways.
It happens. No matter how you arrange a tournament, you can't guarantee good games.
On September 02 2012 04:18 aintz wrote: only keen double rax when down 0-3 lol.
man how did he lose his first 3 matches was watching dota.
First game was double rax Second game was Life using 2 base muta vs hellion/banshee and just crushing because Keen made too few units Third game was Keen attempting early pressure with hellions, both players expand a bunch, life wins with ling/ultra/infestor
On September 02 2012 04:18 rEiGN~ wrote: Crazy smart play by Keen to lift those raxes into place where marines can be produced safely.
I'm surprised casters didn't praise that more.
Yeah that was amazing.
It was actually pretty dumb, all life had to do was follow them with lings and he wouldn't even be able to land them. He's lucky he could even land them there cause if he didn't he never would've won.
On September 02 2012 04:19 MrCon wrote: Keen only won because it's an unfair 51% terran map, like antiga !
On September 02 2012 04:18 rEiGN~ wrote: Crazy smart play by Keen to lift those raxes into place where marines can be produced safely.
I'm surprised casters didn't praise that more.
Yeah that was amazing.
It was actually pretty dumb, all life had to do was follow them with lings and he wouldn't even be able to land them. He's lucky he could even land them there cause if he didn't he never would've won.
Life sent all his lings into Keen's base once the wall got broken
On September 02 2012 04:19 MrCon wrote: Keen only won because it's an unfair 51% terran map, like antiga !
On September 02 2012 04:18 rEiGN~ wrote: Crazy smart play by Keen to lift those raxes into place where marines can be produced safely.
I'm surprised casters didn't praise that more.
Yeah that was amazing.
It was actually pretty dumb, all life had to do was follow them with lings and he wouldn't even be able to land them. He's lucky he could even land them there cause if he didn't he never would've won.
It was dumb from Life perhaps, but how was it dumb from Keen.
On September 02 2012 04:19 MrCon wrote: Keen only won because it's an unfair 51% terran map, like antiga !
On September 02 2012 04:18 rEiGN~ wrote: Crazy smart play by Keen to lift those raxes into place where marines can be produced safely.
I'm surprised casters didn't praise that more.
Yeah that was amazing.
It was actually pretty dumb, all life had to do was follow them with lings and he wouldn't even be able to land them. He's lucky he could even land them there cause if he didn't he never would've won.
Life sent all his lings into Keen's base once the wall got broken
He sent it after keen lifted his barracks, at first he only had 2-3 lings. The reason keen lifted in the first place was cause he kept getting marines picked apart. All life had to do was follow the racks with one ling each, just to prevent them from landing into a favorable position.
On September 02 2012 04:19 MrCon wrote: Keen only won because it's an unfair 51% terran map, like antiga !
On September 02 2012 04:18 rEiGN~ wrote: Crazy smart play by Keen to lift those raxes into place where marines can be produced safely.
I'm surprised casters didn't praise that more.
Yeah that was amazing.
It was actually pretty dumb, all life had to do was follow them with lings and he wouldn't even be able to land them. He's lucky he could even land them there cause if he didn't he never would've won.
It was dumb from Life perhaps, but how was it dumb from Keen.
You're right, it was dumb on life,keen pulled off something amazing my mistake.
Haha, hate when that happens in my PvZ. Put some pressure on off a gate expand, force mass lings, and die to the counter due to sloppy play (bad building placement, missed FF etc). It's >< stuff. Keen did read that late though, and no siege? :/
It's the danger of succeeding and actually forcing units from Zerg.
On September 02 2012 04:38 aZealot wrote: Haha, hate when that happens in my PvZ. Put some pressure on off a gate expand, force mass lings, and die to the counter due to sloppy play (bad building placement, missed FF etc). It's >< stuff. Keen did read that late though, and no siege? :/
He would have been fine had he not tried a silly backstab at the third with his BFH. He made two Bunkers at once upon seeing Roaches coming at the center so he should have known there was no Drones to kill at the third anyway.
On September 02 2012 04:57 Schelim wrote: man Creator is a fuckin upgrade machine. every time i see an upgrade finish in the production tab, the next one is queued up immediately.
Well. Saying nice storms was kinda stupid there because most of the storms didn't hit anything. Sting did micro the huge fight better then Creator in my opinion. Creator won this game because his decision making was way better (including the upgrades) and because of his good defense of the Hellions and Drops.
Edit: Why am I getting commercials now? I'm pretty sure I didn't get those commercials before (I got TSL+)
On September 02 2012 04:57 Schelim wrote: man Creator is a fuckin upgrade machine. every time i see an upgrade finish in the production tab, the next one is queued up immediately.
Indeed.
not sure what you're trying to say. i don't mean queued up as in he had already clicked the next one as of course that doesn't work. for example, when his +1 shields finished in this game, +2 shields popped up in the production tab INSTANTLY. it literally looks like he's got a fuckin macro for that shit or something.
Well it seems like SC2 still needs the old big names or some foreign surprise to catch a big audience. Very disappointing though, but you can't help it
On September 02 2012 04:57 Schelim wrote: man Creator is a fuckin upgrade machine. every time i see an upgrade finish in the production tab, the next one is queued up immediately.
Indeed.
not sure what you're trying to say. i don't mean queued up as in he had already clicked the next one as of course that doesn't work. for example, when his +1 shields finished in this game, +2 shields popped up in the production tab INSTANTLY. it literally looks like he's got a fuckin macro for that shit or something.
I know. I was poking fun because a certain caster said something similar, but actually thought you could queue them.
On September 02 2012 04:57 Schelim wrote: man Creator is a fuckin upgrade machine. every time i see an upgrade finish in the production tab, the next one is queued up immediately.
Indeed.
not sure what you're trying to say. i don't mean queued up as in he had already clicked the next one as of course that doesn't work. for example, when his +1 shields finished in this game, +2 shields popped up in the production tab INSTANTLY. it literally looks like he's got a fuckin macro for that shit or something.
I know. I was poking fun because a certain caster said something similar, but actually thought you could queue them.
I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about, was it Code A?
On September 02 2012 04:57 Schelim wrote: man Creator is a fuckin upgrade machine. every time i see an upgrade finish in the production tab, the next one is queued up immediately.
Indeed.
not sure what you're trying to say. i don't mean queued up as in he had already clicked the next one as of course that doesn't work. for example, when his +1 shields finished in this game, +2 shields popped up in the production tab INSTANTLY. it literally looks like he's got a fuckin macro for that shit or something.
I know. I was poking fun because a certain caster said something similar, but actually thought you could queue them.
oh yeah, that was floating around in my head too. guess i fell into your trap.
On September 02 2012 04:42 ondik wrote: 11 pages for TSL semifinals..
No one really cared about TSL4. TL shoved it down our throats with dozens of qualifiers and advertisements, but in reality it's just an online tournament that no one takes seriously and means nothing.
On September 02 2012 04:42 ondik wrote: 11 pages for TSL semifinals..
No one really cared about TSL4. TL shoved it down our throats with dozens of qualifiers and advertisements, but in reality it's just an online tournament that no one takes seriously and means nothing.
On September 02 2012 04:42 ondik wrote: 11 pages for TSL semifinals..
No one really cared about TSL4. TL shoved it down our throats with dozens of qualifiers and advertisements, but in reality it's just an online tournament that no one takes seriously and means nothing.
Do you normally have such idiotic and shitty posting?
TSL4 is now just one major tournament out of many. TSL3 was the most hyped tournament of its time besides the GSL. Also it was the first time that the top Korean talent interacted with top foreigner talent, which is a theme we take for granted now.
On September 02 2012 04:42 ondik wrote: 11 pages for TSL semifinals..
No one really cared about TSL4. TL shoved it down our throats with dozens of qualifiers and advertisements, but in reality it's just an online tournament that no one takes seriously and means nothing.
Yea lets hate on it because we're cool rather than just enjoy the fact we have free high level sc2 to watch.
Who wins Creator in standard TvP macro games? I remember Bomber in a good day stomping him in a spectacular fashion on this map (Daybreak), but otherwise I rarely see him lose.
On September 02 2012 05:17 Whatson wrote: Creator makes PvT look so imbalanced
You have to play tvp like thorzain does were you have a really passive midgame so you can have time to get those essential 10-14 ghosts and +2 vikings.
you can also play like taeja and just rape, but you have to be on another level then your opponent
On September 02 2012 05:19 Tayar wrote: sting really enjoys throwing units away trying to do multi-pronged attacks. creator just trading well all game and way ahead on upgrades.
What do you want him to do? Sit there and let him max with 3/3 uncontested?
On September 02 2012 05:19 TheDwf wrote: Who wins Creator in standard TvP macro games? I remember Bomber in a good day stomping him in a spectacular fashion on this map (Daybreak), but otherwise I rarely see him lose.
Taeja did once in IPL TAC, and he did 5-3 him in IPL FC. Puma too i think, IPL4
On September 02 2012 05:17 Whatson wrote: Creator makes PvT look so imbalanced
You have to play tvp like thorzain does were you have a really passive midgame so you can have time to get those essential 10-14 ghosts and +2 vikings.
you can also play like taeja and just rape, but you have to be on another level then your opponent
Thorzain couldn't get it to work against Hasu. Doubt it would work much better agains Creator.
On September 02 2012 05:19 TheDwf wrote: Who wins Creator in standard TvP macro games? I remember Bomber in a good day stomping him in a spectacular fashion on this map (Daybreak), but otherwise I rarely see him lose.
Jjakji beat the hell out of him in IPL games, but that was a while ago now.
On September 02 2012 05:15 Tachion wrote: viewership is disappointing for TSL semis
no foreigner in top8, major is the only one to win a series vs korean, no upsets happening, no storyline, it's just another tournament where koreans wreck foreigners and fight each other to the gold medal at this time, and an online one of that...
On September 02 2012 05:17 Whatson wrote: Creator makes PvT look so imbalanced
You have to play tvp like thorzain does were you have a really passive midgame so you can have time to get those essential 10-14 ghosts and +2 vikings.
Passivity is never a good idea in TvP. It did not go well anyway when he tried to split map against Hasu on Daybreak.
On September 02 2012 05:17 Whatson wrote: Creator makes PvT look so imbalanced
You have to play tvp like thorzain does were you have a really passive midgame so you can have time to get those essential 10-14 ghosts and +2 vikings.
you can also play like taeja and just rape, but you have to be on another level then your opponent
Oh im not complaining about PvT imbalance or whatever, Creator plays on a different level than almost every other Protoss players. Creator and PartinG are the two Protoss players who I feel have set themselves apart from the rest in PvT, PartinG with templars, Creator with Collosi.
On September 02 2012 05:19 TheDwf wrote: Who wins Creator in standard TvP macro games? I remember Bomber in a good day stomping him in a spectacular fashion on this map (Daybreak), but otherwise I rarely see him lose.
It happens. TaeJa, MKP, Jjakji, Bomber, Gumiho can handle lategame TvP and occasionally win vs Creator/Parting.
On September 02 2012 05:19 TheDwf wrote: Who wins Creator in standard TvP macro games? I remember Bomber in a good day stomping him in a spectacular fashion on this map (Daybreak), but otherwise I rarely see him lose.
It happens. TaeJa, MKP, Jjakji, Bomber, Gumiho can handle lategame TvP and occasionally win vs Creator/Parting.
On September 02 2012 05:19 TheDwf wrote: Who wins Creator in standard TvP macro games? I remember Bomber in a good day stomping him in a spectacular fashion on this map (Daybreak), but otherwise I rarely see him lose.
It happens. TaeJa, MKP, Jjakji, Bomber, Gumiho can handle lategame TvP and occasionally win vs Creator/Parting.
On September 02 2012 05:19 TheDwf wrote: Who wins Creator in standard TvP macro games? I remember Bomber in a good day stomping him in a spectacular fashion on this map (Daybreak), but otherwise I rarely see him lose.
It happens. TaeJa, MKP, Jjakji, Bomber, Gumiho can handle lategame TvP and occasionally win vs Creator/Parting.
Occasionally. Still I want Sting to try to go for a really greedy fast 3 CCs with fast Double-Ebay to finally stay even in upgrades. He handled the lategame engagement on Metropolis pretty well but was too far behind in upgrades and overall unit count to win that game. Maybe Sting can break Creator in a passive game. He should at least try it for once.
Is marauder hellion actually a viable unit composition in the early game TvP? I know in theory the hellions can kill the zealots so the marauders can kill the stalkers/sentries
On September 02 2012 05:27 Whatson wrote: Is marauder hellion actually a viable unit composition in the early game TvP? I know in theory the hellions can kill the zealots so the marauders can kill the stalkers/sentries
Yes, it is extremely dangerous when the stalker count is low.
What the hell happened? I saw Sting catch Creators entire army in the middle of the map, go to grab a drink, come back and Creator is raping String's ramp...
I though Sting was going to win after he caught a lot of the stalkers in the middle of the map but I guess Creator is just too good right now. I still want Creator to win but not 4-0.
On September 02 2012 05:33 pmp10 wrote: Hopefully this means the finals will be even. Last thing TSL4 needs is another rotfl-stomp. Is there a 3-rd place match?
On September 02 2012 05:15 Tachion wrote: viewership is disappointing for TSL semis
no foreigner in top8, major is the only one to win a series vs korean, no upsets happening, no storyline, it's just another tournament where koreans wreck foreigners and fight each other to the gold medal at this time, and an online one of that...
Plus, the games are one-sided and boring. Watching Creator stomping Sting is not really entertaining....
On September 02 2012 05:36 An2quamaraN wrote: Creator must be Top 3 protoss right now. I can't understand why he didn't win GSL yet.
He's a fucking monster online. He supposedly gets nerve issues though, and like Taeja, I don't think he's very good at preparing for specific matches. He's gone for macro games every game I've seen of him, and he has a lot of 1 size fits all type builds. Lots of areas of exploitation by somebody who prepares heavily.
On September 02 2012 05:38 neckgripper wrote: Even though creator has been so dominant, he doesn't really impress me. I was more impressed with IM_first with his multitasking and army positioning.
Strangely enough his PvP is most impressive (to watch) right now. His vZ and vT are just rock solid, but not sexy.
On September 02 2012 05:44 Shellshock1122 wrote: creator doing his 1 colossus for forcing vikings into switch for archons build?
Pretty sure yeah This is such a sexy timing by Sting though, hit Creator right before that archon chargelot swtich, when creator only has one collosi I want storm drops!!
ouch sting completely forgot an armory. so long until 2-2 can start. he'll be wayyyyy behind in upgrades although these timings are doing wonders for sting
On September 02 2012 05:38 neckgripper wrote: Even though creator has been so dominant, he doesn't really impress me. I was more impressed with IM_first with his multitasking and army positioning.
Strangely enough his PvP is most impressive (to watch) right now. His vZ and vT are just rock solid, but not sexy.
Yea, that's exactly what I think when i see his vT and vZ, it's super solid but not fun to watch.
On September 02 2012 05:47 TheDwf wrote: Such a wonky build from Creator here, basically spending 500/400 to trick his opponent into overreacting...
He does that all the time. The one Colossus allows him to defend almost all mid-game timings. He lost the Colossus unnecessary in this game and didn't split as well against the multi-pronged attacks as he did in the previous games.
I don't know what it is about this TSL, but I'm just not interested in it as much as I was for TSL3; does anyone else feel this way? Maybe its because I don't care about these players.. :/
On September 02 2012 05:49 Emuking wrote: I don't know what it is about this TSL, but I'm just not interested in it as much as I was for TSL3; does anyone else feel this way? Maybe its because I don't care about these players.. :/
No real upsets, coupled with the SC2 scene being quite well saturated nowadays.
On September 02 2012 05:38 neckgripper wrote: Even though creator has been so dominant, he doesn't really impress me. I was more impressed with IM_first with his multitasking and army positioning.
Strangely enough his PvP is most impressive (to watch) right now. His vZ and vT are just rock solid, but not sexy.
Yea, that's exactly what I think when i see his vT and vZ, it's super solid but not fun to watch.
Hey, what do you expect from the guy that invented the safest PvT build (double forge into super turtle mode) There are Protoss out there that are a lot more fun to watch, but Creator is really good, can't take that away from him
On September 02 2012 05:49 Emuking wrote: I don't know what it is about this TSL, but I'm just not interested in it as much as I was for TSL3; does anyone else feel this way? Maybe its because I don't care about these players.. :/
No real upsets, coupled with the SC2 scene being quite well saturated nowadays.
Also there are no foreigners left and the Koreans that are left aren't like the BIG NAME Koreans.
On September 02 2012 05:49 Emuking wrote: I don't know what it is about this TSL, but I'm just not interested in it as much as I was for TSL3; does anyone else feel this way? Maybe its because I don't care about these players.. :/
No real upsets, coupled with the SC2 scene being quite well saturated nowadays.
Also there are no foreigners left and the Koreans that are left aren't like the BIG NAME Koreans.
Creator is actually currently big name in Korea, but apart from him very no one really stands out.
On September 02 2012 05:47 TheDwf wrote: Such a wonky build from Creator here, basically spending 500/400 to trick his opponent into overreacting...
He does that all the time. The one Colossus allows him to defend almost all mid-game timings.
Don't see how a single Colossus without range really helps. 6-range Colossi are very vulnerable to Marauders abruptly stepping forward and sniping them in 2-3 volleys.
On September 02 2012 05:49 Emuking wrote: I don't know what it is about this TSL, but I'm just not interested in it as much as I was for TSL3; does anyone else feel this way? Maybe its because I don't care about these players.. :/
No real upsets, coupled with the SC2 scene being quite well saturated nowadays.
Also there are no foreigners left and the Koreans that are left aren't like the BIG NAME Koreans.
Creator is actually currently big name in Korea, but apart from him very no one really stands out.
On September 02 2012 05:47 TheDwf wrote: Such a wonky build from Creator here, basically spending 500/400 to trick his opponent into overreacting...
He does that all the time. The one Colossus allows him to defend almost all mid-game timings.
Don't see how a single Colossus without range really helps. 6-range Colossi are very vulnerable to Marauders abruptly stepping forward and sniping them in 2-3 volleys.
On September 02 2012 05:49 Emuking wrote: I don't know what it is about this TSL, but I'm just not interested in it as much as I was for TSL3; does anyone else feel this way? Maybe its because I don't care about these players.. :/
No real upsets, coupled with the SC2 scene being quite well saturated nowadays.
Also there are no foreigners left and the Koreans that are left aren't like the BIG NAME Koreans.
Creator is actually currently big name in Korea, but apart from him very no one really stands out.
Except the guy who just made the finals.
Life? Doesn't have any tournament wins to his name and is thus basically a nobody to anyone not following the Korean scene (yet). There aren't many people that are going to be "omg Life is playing, gotta catcht this match".
On September 02 2012 05:49 Emuking wrote: I don't know what it is about this TSL, but I'm just not interested in it as much as I was for TSL3; does anyone else feel this way? Maybe its because I don't care about these players.. :/
same for me. no real upsets except for majors first round victory, no true storylines, no really high-profile koreans in the later rounds.
but there is more to it. during the last months, i have become less and less interested in sc2. i think its the stale balance coupled with the shitty state of terran and the somewhat stagnant map pool.
On September 02 2012 05:49 Emuking wrote: I don't know what it is about this TSL, but I'm just not interested in it as much as I was for TSL3; does anyone else feel this way? Maybe its because I don't care about these players.. :/
No real upsets, coupled with the SC2 scene being quite well saturated nowadays.
Also there are no foreigners left and the Koreans that are left aren't like the BIG NAME Koreans.
Creator is actually currently big name in Korea, but apart from him very no one really stands out.
Except the guy who just made the finals.
Life? Doesn't have any tournament wins to his name and is thus basically a nobody to anyone not following the Korean scene (yet). There aren't many people that are going to be "omg Life is playing, gotta catcht this match".
Tell that to all the players who regard him as one of the best zergs in Korea.
On September 02 2012 05:49 Emuking wrote: I don't know what it is about this TSL, but I'm just not interested in it as much as I was for TSL3; does anyone else feel this way? Maybe its because I don't care about these players.. :/
No real upsets, coupled with the SC2 scene being quite well saturated nowadays.
Also there are no foreigners left and the Koreans that are left aren't like the BIG NAME Koreans.
Creator is actually currently big name in Korea, but apart from him very no one really stands out.
Except the guy who just made the finals.
Life? Doesn't have any tournament wins to his name and is thus basically a nobody to anyone not following the Korean scene (yet). There aren't many people that are going to be "omg Life is playing, gotta catcht this match".
Tell that to all the Korean players who regard him as one of the best zergs.
yeah, but they don't watch TSL4. not that there's tens of thousands of them anyways.
that O_o by Sting xD Creator rage-quitting was really unexpected. Please tell us that he actually dropped, because if not, then this was really unprofessional by Creator.
On September 02 2012 05:49 Emuking wrote: I don't know what it is about this TSL, but I'm just not interested in it as much as I was for TSL3; does anyone else feel this way? Maybe its because I don't care about these players.. :/
No real upsets, coupled with the SC2 scene being quite well saturated nowadays.
Also there are no foreigners left and the Koreans that are left aren't like the BIG NAME Koreans.
Creator is actually currently big name in Korea, but apart from him very no one really stands out.
Except the guy who just made the finals.
Life? Doesn't have any tournament wins to his name and is thus basically a nobody to anyone not following the Korean scene (yet). There aren't many people that are going to be "omg Life is playing, gotta catcht this match".
Tell that to all the players who regard him as one of the best zergs in Korea.
I also think he is one of the best zergs in Korea. Reread my post maybe?
On September 02 2012 06:03 Yello wrote: that O_o by Sting xD Creator rage-quitting was really unexpected. Please tell us that he actually dropped, because if not, then this was really unprofessional by Creator.
by the way a bunch of chat just popped up at the end from sting shows that there was a DC countdown window up. either that or sting is super fucking fast at typing that he can make 2 lines appear instantaneously
On September 02 2012 06:03 Yello wrote: that O_o by Sting xD Creator rage-quitting was really unexpected. Please tell us that he actually dropped, because if not, then this was really unprofessional by Creator.
It would be kind of cool to see Sting pull off the reverse win, now that Creator can't get his perfect, no games lost, tournament run anymore. Probably the one thing that might get some hype for this TSL would be the dark horse Sting taking the title like his ex-teammate Jjakji did for GSL November.
I guess there is some interesting data to be gathered from this thread, analyzing posts made from the second Creator left that game without a gg until Artosis/dApollo mentioned that he had disconnected and said gg when coming back.
On September 02 2012 05:49 Emuking wrote: I don't know what it is about this TSL, but I'm just not interested in it as much as I was for TSL3; does anyone else feel this way? Maybe its because I don't care about these players.. :/
No real upsets, coupled with the SC2 scene being quite well saturated nowadays.
Also there are no foreigners left and the Koreans that are left aren't like the BIG NAME Koreans.
Creator is actually currently big name in Korea, but apart from him very no one really stands out.
Except the guy who just made the finals.
Life? Doesn't have any tournament wins to his name and is thus basically a nobody to anyone not following the Korean scene (yet). There aren't many people that are going to be "omg Life is playing, gotta catcht this match".
Tell that to all the players who regard him as one of the best zergs in Korea.
I also think he is one of the best zergs in Korea. Reread my post maybe?
You did not say that in your post. He's not a big-name Korean but that is due to mere circumstance. If he was on MVP or IM during the beginning of his career, he would already be on the level of Dongraegu.
On September 02 2012 06:05 Porcelina wrote: I guess there is some interesting data to be gathered from this thread, analyzing posts made from the second Creator left that game without a gg until Artosis/dApollo mentioned that he had disconnected and said gg when coming back.
Or perhaps that is only interesting to me alone.
It's interesting to me. Also interesting is the number of people continuing to talk about the no gg after they said that he disconnected.
On September 02 2012 06:03 Yello wrote: that O_o by Sting xD Creator rage-quitting was really unexpected. Please tell us that he actually dropped, because if not, then this was really unprofessional by Creator.
Whatever. I wouldn't have GG'd agains the 111 either.
If creator wanted to go down and catch Sting coming, he should made more zealot, he actually had too many immortal that Sting could just stay relatively still and keep banshee covered.
On September 02 2012 06:11 wo1fwood wrote: wait I just left for a bit, how did Sting just win the last two?
game 4 caught creator with a good mid game timing on a two pronged attack while creator was tech switching leaving him with too few units to defend game 5 1-1-1
On September 02 2012 06:11 wo1fwood wrote: wait I just left for a bit, how did Sting just win the last two?
game 4 caught creator with a good mid game timing on a two pronged attack while creator was tech switching leaving him with too few units to defend game 5 1-1-1
On September 02 2012 06:16 maartendq wrote: So... 25 pages for TSL4's semi-finals.. That's disappointing.
Right that's a bit sad too
Sorry, haven't been following TSL much--is there a dedicated TSL music thread? I'd like to know what this song is and what some of the other songs might have been. Thanks in advance.
On September 02 2012 06:13 sitromit wrote: Why do Terrans play so greedy? Build a couple more bunkers man.
That was greedy? wut
Yes, one bunker is quite greedy if you play blind. Don't know if he used a scan to scout but if he didn't, having only one bunker is definitely risky.
Yes it is greedy, but against Creator who plays very similar builds each game it was a well thought out calculated risk. But who knew Creator would go all BossToss on Sting's ass with that 5gate?
On September 02 2012 06:13 sitromit wrote: Why do Terrans play so greedy? Build a couple more bunkers man.
because sting was trying to hit a 2medivac timing. And boy believe it or not, your build gets totally screwed if you build 3 or 4 bunkers and protoss doesn't attack and goes for a quick 3rd instead. You have so little units, that you can't apply any pressure and are basically giving up the midgame. It's the same reason why zergs don't allways build 4spines in ZvT. You have to scout better as terran or you take a risk of dying to a gateway allin. That's how the matchup works!
Well this is the best final you could've hoped for in that tournament. Expect many amazing games from those 2 players. They don't have the big names yet, but they both are so damn skilled and play very entertaining high quality PvZ. I'm really amazed for this final!
On September 02 2012 06:16 maartendq wrote: So... 25 pages for TSL4's semi-finals.. That's disappointing.
Right that's a bit sad too
Sorry, haven't been following TSL much--is there a dedicated TSL music thread? I'd like to know what this song is and what some of the other songs might have been. Thanks in advance.
TSL should be made to be an offline tournament IMO. But that's easier said than done.
After all the upsets and foreigner beatdowns that happened in the first 2 rounds, a Creator vs Life finals is about as good as TSL could have hoped for. TL can play up the youth is served angle for hype and Creator's stock is at an all time high after winning WCS Korea.
On September 02 2012 06:16 maartendq wrote: So... 25 pages for TSL4's semi-finals.. That's disappointing.
yeah na sc2 is pretty much done, you got about 10x more ppl watching LoL, as much as i loved watching sc2, anything outside the gsl is a complete joke
Yea man those thousands of people at MLG Raleigh for the dual stages of Sc2. Phew man Sc2 sure is dying. Thank god there isn't more leagues popping up, and more sponsors getting involved in Sc2, cause it sure is dying........ Good thing we have brilliant people like yourself to remind us! Thanks buddy I almost forgot that geniuses like you with the facts stored in your head can let us all know of the truth of how Sc2 is on the verge of extinction !!!!!!
On September 02 2012 06:16 maartendq wrote: So... 25 pages for TSL4's semi-finals.. That's disappointing.
yeah na sc2 is pretty much done, you got about 10x more ppl watching LoL, as much as i loved watching sc2, anything outside the gsl is a complete joke
Nah, for me it's more that it's in the middle of a beautiful Saturday, it's an online tournament which takes away the fun, and there are only Koreans which don't interest me as much. When you combine online tourney with only Koreans, it seems very emotionally flat to me. Not much personality.
On September 02 2012 06:16 maartendq wrote: So... 25 pages for TSL4's semi-finals.. That's disappointing.
yeah na sc2 is pretty much done, you got about 10x more ppl watching LoL, as much as i loved watching sc2, anything outside the gsl is a complete joke
for me personally there is just way too many tournaments to watch still, expecting starcraft fans to watch every single major tournament that happens almost every single weekend burns people out.
On September 02 2012 05:49 Emuking wrote: I don't know what it is about this TSL, but I'm just not interested in it as much as I was for TSL3; does anyone else feel this way? Maybe its because I don't care about these players.. :/
No real upsets, coupled with the SC2 scene being quite well saturated nowadays.
Also there are no foreigners left and the Koreans that are left aren't like the BIG NAME Koreans.
On September 02 2012 06:19 heartlxp wrote: yeah na sc2 is pretty much done, you got about 10x more ppl watching LoL, as much as i loved watching sc2, anything outside the gsl is a complete joke
I mean, who feels that SC2 is still fresh and interesting? It has gotten pretty stale IMO. I see the same names over and over--especially in the foreign scene. (Thanks to WCS we see the occasional new face.) The metagame changes are slow, the builds are predictable, the Koreans are mostly without personality... and there simply are not many jaw-dropping amazing moments, at least in the stuff I watch (the way there are in, say, Dota 2).
On September 02 2012 06:19 heartlxp wrote: yeah na sc2 is pretty much done, you got about 10x more ppl watching LoL, as much as i loved watching sc2, anything outside the gsl is a complete joke
I mean, who feels that SC2 is still fresh and interesting? It has gotten pretty stale IMO. I see the same names over and over--especially in the foreign scene. (Thanks to WCS we see the occasional new face.) The metagame changes are slow, the builds are predictable, the Koreans are mostly without personality... and there simply are not many jaw-dropping amazing moments, at least in the stuff I watch (the way there are in, say, Dota 2).
True IMO, current state of the game is incredibly boring. Combine that with way too many tournaments and a lot of random Koreans and most people couldn't care less about some tournaments. Starcraft DESPERATELY needs HotS to be good and the game needs wayyyyy more hype.
On September 02 2012 06:19 heartlxp wrote: yeah na sc2 is pretty much done, you got about 10x more ppl watching LoL, as much as i loved watching sc2, anything outside the gsl is a complete joke
I mean, who feels that SC2 is still fresh and interesting? It has gotten pretty stale IMO. I see the same names over and over--especially in the foreign scene. (Thanks to WCS we see the occasional new face.) The metagame changes are slow, the builds are predictable, the Koreans are mostly without personality... and there simply are not many jaw-dropping amazing moments, at least in the stuff I watch (the way there are in, say, Dota 2).
Agree. Just watched some The International 2 action and is so much better than watching Sc2. Btw, i played Sc2 since the beta, and watched the pro scene since the first GSL and so. But the game is just boring to watch due to the lack of intense micro mechanics (to constantly create those wow moments)and total lack of charismatic players.
On September 02 2012 06:19 heartlxp wrote: yeah na sc2 is pretty much done, you got about 10x more ppl watching LoL, as much as i loved watching sc2, anything outside the gsl is a complete joke
I mean, who feels that SC2 is still fresh and interesting? It has gotten pretty stale IMO. I see the same names over and over--especially in the foreign scene. (Thanks to WCS we see the occasional new face.) The metagame changes are slow, the builds are predictable, the Koreans are mostly without personality... and there simply are not many jaw-dropping amazing moments, at least in the stuff I watch (the way there are in, say, Dota 2).
Agree. Just watched some The International 2 action and is so much better than watching Sc2. Btw, i played Sc2 since the beta, and watched the pro scene since the first GSL and so. But the game is just boring to watch due to the lack of intense micro mechanics (to constantly create those wow moments)and total lack of charismatic players.
That is your own opinion man. Don't state it like a fact. As an expample for me watching Hero's stream is much more interesting than watching the international(btw I fell asleep 3 times during one of the matches...), but I didn't come in the dota forum to shit all over the game. Keep your personal preferences to yourself.
On September 02 2012 06:19 heartlxp wrote: yeah na sc2 is pretty much done, you got about 10x more ppl watching LoL, as much as i loved watching sc2, anything outside the gsl is a complete joke
I mean, who feels that SC2 is still fresh and interesting? It has gotten pretty stale IMO. I see the same names over and over--especially in the foreign scene. (Thanks to WCS we see the occasional new face.) The metagame changes are slow, the builds are predictable, the Koreans are mostly without personality... and there simply are not many jaw-dropping amazing moments, at least in the stuff I watch (the way there are in, say, Dota 2).
Agree. Just watched some The International 2 action and is so much better than watching Sc2. Btw, i played Sc2 since the beta, and watched the pro scene since the first GSL and so. But the game is just boring to watch due to the lack of intense micro mechanics (to constantly create those wow moments)and total lack of charismatic players.
and you watch dota because it has those intense micro mechanics? You really get hyped up because someone can control one single unit correctly? The problem is not the way SC2 is played and it's not the players that lack of charisma or personality. The problem is, that SC2 is too hard to be played by the mass over a long period of time. Most casual players don't want to think too much about build orders or strategy, but they want achievements with little effort. That's why WoW has been such a success over such a long time and that's why Dota and LoL are so popular: Because they are fucking easy to play. And if the game is played a lot, you get a lot of viewers to watch the tournaments (and additionally there are not that many LoL/Dota tournaments out there, so the market is not as saturated as in SC2), especially if you promote the streams ingame! in esports we have the players -> viewers dynamic, while in other sports it's more the other way around. And that is hurting SC2 atm!
On September 02 2012 06:19 heartlxp wrote: yeah na sc2 is pretty much done, you got about 10x more ppl watching LoL, as much as i loved watching sc2, anything outside the gsl is a complete joke
I mean, who feels that SC2 is still fresh and interesting? It has gotten pretty stale IMO. I see the same names over and over--especially in the foreign scene. (Thanks to WCS we see the occasional new face.) The metagame changes are slow, the builds are predictable, the Koreans are mostly without personality... and there simply are not many jaw-dropping amazing moments, at least in the stuff I watch (the way there are in, say, Dota 2).
Agree. Just watched some The International 2 action and is so much better than watching Sc2. Btw, i played Sc2 since the beta, and watched the pro scene since the first GSL and so. But the game is just boring to watch due to the lack of intense micro mechanics (to constantly create those wow moments)and total lack of charismatic players.
and you watch dota because it has those intense micro mechanics? You really get hyped up because someone can control one single unit correctly? The problem is not the way SC2 is played and it's not the players that lack of charisma or personality. The problem is, that SC2 is too hard to be played by the mass over a long period of time. Most casual players don't want to think too much about build orders or strategy, but they want achievements with little effort. That's why WoW has been such a success over such a long time and that's why Dota and LoL are so popular: Because they are fucking easy to play. And if the game is played a lot, you get a lot of viewers to watch the tournaments (and additionally there are not that many LoL/Dota tournaments out there, so the market is not as saturated as in SC2), especially if you promote the streams ingame! in esports we have the players -> viewers dynamic, while in other sports it's more the other way around. And that is hurting SC2 atm!
Wow 'esports' always had low viewership. The problem with SC2 is that there are a lot of tournaments, scattered all over the place. And TSL isn't an offline spectacle, plus no Stephano or other big name in the top 4. Ideal for Esports would be more centered locations to view it. You don't have to watch sports on 50 different channels.
On September 02 2012 06:19 heartlxp wrote: yeah na sc2 is pretty much done, you got about 10x more ppl watching LoL, as much as i loved watching sc2, anything outside the gsl is a complete joke
I mean, who feels that SC2 is still fresh and interesting? It has gotten pretty stale IMO. I see the same names over and over--especially in the foreign scene. (Thanks to WCS we see the occasional new face.) The metagame changes are slow, the builds are predictable, the Koreans are mostly without personality... and there simply are not many jaw-dropping amazing moments, at least in the stuff I watch (the way there are in, say, Dota 2).
Agree. Just watched some The International 2 action and is so much better than watching Sc2. Btw, i played Sc2 since the beta, and watched the pro scene since the first GSL and so. But the game is just boring to watch due to the lack of intense micro mechanics (to constantly create those wow moments)and total lack of charismatic players.
and you watch dota because it has those intense micro mechanics? You really get hyped up because someone can control one single unit correctly? The problem is not the way SC2 is played and it's not the players that lack of charisma or personality. The problem is, that SC2 is too hard to be played by the mass over a long period of time. Most casual players don't want to think too much about build orders or strategy, but they want achievements with little effort. That's why WoW has been such a success over such a long time and that's why Dota and LoL are so popular: Because they are fucking easy to play. And if the game is played a lot, you get a lot of viewers to watch the tournaments (and additionally there are not that many LoL/Dota tournaments out there, so the market is not as saturated as in SC2), especially if you promote the streams ingame! in esports we have the players -> viewers dynamic, while in other sports it's more the other way around. And that is hurting SC2 atm!
This Pretty Much
SC > DOTA,LOL in mechanics and Excitement
Plus a 45 min game in SC2 is sure to bring you loads of excitement whereas 60-70% of 45 min DOTA games are 1 sided stomps that get dragged out for far too long[See TI2]
This in no way means that I'm shitting on DOTA or something...I like the game and play it way more than SC2 recently...But I would always watch a GSTL finals or a GSL code S finals over the International Finals if ever I had to choose that way.
On September 02 2012 06:19 heartlxp wrote: yeah na sc2 is pretty much done, you got about 10x more ppl watching LoL, as much as i loved watching sc2, anything outside the gsl is a complete joke
I mean, who feels that SC2 is still fresh and interesting? It has gotten pretty stale IMO. I see the same names over and over--especially in the foreign scene. (Thanks to WCS we see the occasional new face.) The metagame changes are slow, the builds are predictable, the Koreans are mostly without personality... and there simply are not many jaw-dropping amazing moments, at least in the stuff I watch (the way there are in, say, Dota 2).
Agree. Just watched some The International 2 action and is so much better than watching Sc2. Btw, i played Sc2 since the beta, and watched the pro scene since the first GSL and so. But the game is just boring to watch due to the lack of intense micro mechanics (to constantly create those wow moments)and total lack of charismatic players.
and you watch dota because it has those intense micro mechanics? You really get hyped up because someone can control one single unit correctly? The problem is not the way SC2 is played and it's not the players that lack of charisma or personality. The problem is, that SC2 is too hard to be played by the mass over a long period of time. Most casual players don't want to think too much about build orders or strategy, but they want achievements with little effort. That's why WoW has been such a success over such a long time and that's why Dota and LoL are so popular: Because they are fucking easy to play. And if the game is played a lot, you get a lot of viewers to watch the tournaments (and additionally there are not that many LoL/Dota tournaments out there, so the market is not as saturated as in SC2), especially if you promote the streams ingame! in esports we have the players -> viewers dynamic, while in other sports it's more the other way around. And that is hurting SC2 atm!
This Pretty Much
SC > DOTA,LOL in mechanics and Excitement
Plus a 45 min game in SC2 is sure to bring you loads of excitement whereas 60-70% of 45 min DOTA games are 1 sided stomps that get dragged out for far too long[See TI2]
This in no way means that I'm shitting on DOTA or something...I like the game and play it way more than SC2 recently...But I would always watch a GSTL finals or a GSL code S finals over the International Finals if ever I had to choose that way.
A majority of SC2 games are pretty one-sided too.
Just deal with the fact that Marauders, Roaches, and Collosi are boring as fuck. Blame Blizzard.
Its no secret that people want to watch their favorite players, and while I am a big fan of a lot of korean players, it seems like every other tournament another set of koreans dominate who I haven't really heard of before, and while I'm down to watch any pros playing, it does hurt interest a lot when people go to see who's in the finals and its two more koreans who they haven't heard much of. Creator is getting pretty big now with his big WCS Korea championship, but yeah as long as random koreans keep dominating tournaments, international viewership numbers will drop. Its not that people "don't want to watch high quality games" but they want to watch players who they have vested interest in. Is Destiny a top Code S player? Well sadly not really, but at mlg when he was playing TONS of people were gathered around watching because he is wildly popular. Its the same way with any other sport too.
I don't know if one of the people responsible for this will read this and maybe they even have numbers that prove the opposite, but in my opinion the TSL is disappointing. Its sad to say this because I realy appreciate all the effort the team puts into it but I guess negative feedback will help aswell.
The TSL tournaments were always a special event for me, simply because they were one of the things that got me interested into SC esports, along with the GOM classics. They had many interesting matches, good casters, a time schedule that poses nearly no problems for europeans and a lot of famous players. In addition there always was much emotion in the games, who does not remember stuff like the Idra / Nony games in TSL 2?
In TSL 4 however, maybe because of the qualification process, a lot of players are (and I mean this not in a disrespectfull way) kinda unknown koreans or other random players. If you compare the list to the TSL3 participants there is realy a big big difference. Everytime I look the numbers of viewers on the stream are kinda disappointing (or just look at the replies in the LR threads here on TL) and since Ro16 I can pretty much just watch GSL instead, its nearly the same and its live.
Yes, its the players fault if they can't win against all the invited koreans but I want good games, emotion and (a little atleast) drama when old rivals meet each other. You can't help with the games, but the other things could get changed. Kinda the same problem the MLG has, its just not the same anymore.
Where are the VODs for this? I invited friends over to introduce them to Starcraft 2 as a sport.
I went to load the VODs but the TSL4 semifinals have never been posted to the TSL4 website. It was pretty disappointing to sit around and explain to my friends that there was no way to watch the games, and we ended up watching a division 2 college football fiasco
On September 03 2012 13:28 endy wrote: Is that really TSL semis LR thread ? Not even 30 pages for 2 semi finals ?
When I saw in the top right that the finals were already here I was blown away, I haven't watched it since Hasu got eliminated, I want to support TL so I will probably check out the vods of the Protoss games. I just have 0 hype this time around.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/flags2/kr.png)
MVP_Keen < Best-of-7 > 
ST_Life
CreatorPrime < Best-of-7 > 
TeamLiquid StarLeague 4
I feel lucky to be hearing them cast together 
SUCH bad play from Keen
![[image loading]](http://jimbuie.blogs.com/traveling_matthew/images/sistine-chapel-in-st-peter-rome.jpg)
