GIGABYTE and NVIDIA eagerly announce the third GIGABYTE NVIDIA Invitational by myStarCraft.de with some of the finest gamers of StarCraft II from Europe and Korea. Within two days, eight top-notch professionals will compete in a Best-of-Five Single Elimination bracket for 1,000 EUR in total prize money. Cheer for your favorite player and enjoy the action packed and thrilling battles on this week's Saturday and Sunday!
As of yet, a date for remaining matches of the second GIGABYTE NVIDIA Invitational is not confirmed as there are a lot of major tournaments in August the players are attending. More details to be announced soon.
On August 10 2012 09:22 DonGrisu wrote: Ähm... Where are the Games with Moon, Puzzle, nerchio and... (forgot the 4 Member)...??
#2 is postphoned.....As of yet, a date for remaining matches of the second GIGABYTE NVIDIA Invitational is not confirmed as there are a lot of major tournaments in August the players are attending. More details to be announced soon.
Wow, just wanted to add the Liquipedia page and edit everything in and while I was still trying to get everything right Farone just comes in and adds everything xD Hardcore Ninja'ed^^
On August 11 2012 20:38 Yello wrote: Wow, just wanted to add the Liquipedia page and edit everything in and while I was still trying to get everything right Farone just comes in and adds everything xD Hardcore Ninja'ed^^
On August 11 2012 20:38 Yello wrote: Wow, just wanted to add the Liquipedia page and edit everything in and while I was still trying to get everything right Farone just comes in and adds everything xD Hardcore Ninja'ed^^
And Serinox also doing some stuff.
im sorry mate:$
No problem, you can do it faster and better than I could ever do it.
I think he meant that once the zerg has 5+ infestor, the terran can't fight. But Kas played really bad during that game. No creep spread denying. Very little harrasment, no multi drop. Bad engagement and no spreading of his marines...
Next game he loses all his marine versus baneling without speed and no infestor... Bad day for him
Kas goin' Sky Terran, this is what I likes ta see!
EDIT: Kas REALLY needs to learn that Air units need Upgrade love too. :< Hes gonna need to land sick Seeker Missiles to make up for the gargantuan upgrade deficit...
On August 11 2012 22:21 Nawe wrote: Can I know why they make 3rd invitational when liquipedia says second isnt finished yet?
At the second Invitational Bomber and Puzzle couldn't show up due to various reasons. The admins decided that a walkover (def-win) in the semi-finals was not a good way to go and instead just delayed the semi-finals of the Invitational. Edit: we still got no update on when the matches are finally going to be played, if ever.
On August 11 2012 22:08 Zambrah wrote: Kas goin' Sky Terran, this is what I likes ta see!
It will fail horribly if Miya hits like one fungal on Kas' Vikings and Ravens
I meant it in more from more of a spectator's viewpoint than a competitive one.
EDIT: What I'd like to see from a competitive standpoint is Ghosts.
Further EDIT: And THERE ARE THE GHOSTS, lol. :-P
Infestor > Terran :p
Great setup for big air-battle and great seeker missiles and instead Miya just drops a shit-ton of Infested Terrans and Kas dies.... ._.
One day, someone should calculate how much theoretical supply an Infestor is worth when factoring in Infested Terrans, lol. :-P
My calculation says that because of Energy regeneration an Infestor is worth infinite food!
Kas looking good in the macro part again, being ahead and stuff. And once again he falls apart as soon as he has to use his micro. He shouldn't have engaged on Creep and he definitely needs to micro his units better than this if he wants to win against high-level Korean Zergs.
On August 11 2012 22:21 Nawe wrote: Can I know why they make 3rd invitational when liquipedia says second isnt finished yet?
At the second Invitational Bomber and Puzzle couldn't show up due to various reasons. The admins decided that a walkover (def-win) in the semi-finals was not a good way to go and instead just delayed the semi-finals of the Invitational. Edit: we still got no update on when the matches are finally going to be played, if ever.
The remaining matches gone take part for sure but we didn't find a date yet who everybody is available.
On August 11 2012 22:21 Nawe wrote: Can I know why they make 3rd invitational when liquipedia says second isnt finished yet?
At the second Invitational Bomber and Puzzle couldn't show up due to various reasons. The admins decided that a walkover (def-win) in the semi-finals was not a good way to go and instead just delayed the semi-finals of the Invitational. Edit: we still got no update on when the matches are finally going to be played, if ever.
On August 11 2012 22:08 Zambrah wrote: Kas goin' Sky Terran, this is what I likes ta see!
It will fail horribly if Miya hits like one fungal on Kas' Vikings and Ravens
I meant it in more from more of a spectator's viewpoint than a competitive one.
EDIT: What I'd like to see from a competitive standpoint is Ghosts.
Further EDIT: And THERE ARE THE GHOSTS, lol. :-P
Infestor > Terran :p
Great setup for big air-battle and great seeker missiles and instead Miya just drops a shit-ton of Infested Terrans and Kas dies.... ._.
One day, someone should calculate how much theoretical supply an Infestor is worth when factoring in Infested Terrans, lol. :-P
My calculation says that because of Energy regeneration an Infestor is worth infinite food!
Kas looking good in the macro part again, being ahead and stuff. And once again he falls apart as soon as he has to use his micro. He shouldn't have engaged on Creep and he definitely needs to micro his units better than this if he wants to win against high-level Korean Zergs.
An army with ten Infestors with full energy (minus one Fungal per Infestor) will have an additional 50 supply in Infested Terrans. :-P
Now only if people would micro out from over the 50 supply worth of SuperMarines. ;-P
From this game I get the feeling that Miya is trolling Kas. Not building Infestors. Maybe Miya really wanted to show Kas that he can win against him even without Infestors, but that's not working as intended.
Edit: Well, those Infested Terrans do more damage than normal Marines but they are also awfully slow. I don't think anyone could possibly ever micro them. But since they are so good and basically free nobody ever needs to micro them.
This is just sad. Miya toying with Kas, not using infestors, a moving into his army, and his multitasking is so much better than Kas that it's taking Kas forever to win.
On August 11 2012 22:38 Yello wrote: From this game I get the feeling that Miya is trolling Kas. Not building Infestors. Maybe Miya really wanted to show Kas that he can win against him even without Infestors, but that's not working as intended.
He's doing fine. That Khaldor caster seems not to have much of an idea of what he's talking about.
On August 11 2012 22:38 Yello wrote: From this game I get the feeling that Miya is trolling Kas. Not building Infestors. Maybe Miya really wanted to show Kas that he can win against him even without Infestors, but that's not working as intended.
He's doing fine. That Khaldor caster seems not to have much of an idea of what he's talking about.
Who is doing fine? Miya? He is almost losing a game that he could have won 20 minutes ago if he built Infestors. Kas? Not at all, he is almost losing in a game where he is trolled by his opponent.
Maybe Miya is fine, maybe he is sitting in his chair laughing. For me this game is pretty sad, showing how far ahead even not-topnotch Koreans like Miya are too one of the very best non-Korean Terrans.
Kas is really struggling to break Miya, despite having the perfect composition against his army. Kas is slowly starving out, while Miya takes bases everywhere.
On August 11 2012 22:38 Yello wrote: From this game I get the feeling that Miya is trolling Kas. Not building Infestors. Maybe Miya really wanted to show Kas that he can win against him even without Infestors, but that's not working as intended.
He's doing fine. That Khaldor caster seems not to have much of an idea of what he's talking about.
Who is doing fine? Miya? He is almost losing a game that he could have won 20 minutes ago if he built Infestors. Kas? Not at all, he is almost losing in a game where he is trolled by his opponent.
Maybe Miya is fine, maybe he is sitting in his chair laughing. For me this game is pretty sad, showing how far ahead even not-topnotch Koreans like Miya are too one of the very best non-Korean Terrans.
I meant Miya. He was fine at pretty much all points in the game.
Hmmm, expected more fight from Kas, who is constantly hyped as this Terran on par with Koreans. Imagine if Miya had simply got Infestors and Brood Lords, he would have demolished Kas sooner and more one-sidedly.
On August 11 2012 22:40 xrapture wrote: This is just sad. Miya toying with Kas, not using infestors, a moving into his army, and his multitasking is so much better than Kas that it's taking Kas forever to win.
Miya isn't really toying, that's just his playstyle. He played exactly like this in his former appearances (for example in his WCS Korea qualification game vs CJ.Snow).
On the other side, Kas seems to have a serious mindset issue vs Zerg lately.
Well banelings also work, if you manage to put your opponent in the defense, which is easily doable on a map like entombed, you deny their mining, yeah they can move out kill your base, but you just kill theirs while your other quarter of the map is still up and running and because your army can be everywhere in a second, he can never really unsiege fully. Mass siege tanks ist just to slow, like the creep going away is also way to slow. Anyway that siege up lost him the game, if he would have stayed unsieged the ling ultra army would have been destroyed without many losses or he could have just lifted all the tanks up. That siege up reflex is killing alot of terrans in sc2.
Kas seemingly tilting hard. Had he scouted the bottom left expands, he would have won this last game. Should work on army control too, pity he wastes his good macro with poor micro. And walls save life...
Jet lagged, lag excuse still alive and well I see? Nahh, the reason why Keen lost is because of horrible decision making and that result in him doing more mistakes then Grubby
On August 12 2012 00:12 Benjamin99 wrote: Jet lagged, lag excuse still alive and well I see? Nahh, the reason why Keen lost is because of horrible decision making and that result in him doing more mistakes then Grubby
And you realize that being jet lagged etc. may be the reason why he was playing like he did and were making bad decisions?
On August 12 2012 22:11 MangoMountain wrote: Haven't seen a 2 base toss just die to a double drop in a while, did forgg get really ahead early on or something?
bad ffs that blocked him, no scout on this amount of medivacs, and good timing from for gg, imo grubby was a little sloppy today
No, Grubby was teching hard and spending all his gas on getting storm and ForGG dropped before storm, so he basially hit a very good (also lucky) timing.
Also, regarding guys trash talking ForGG, you should watch his stream. He has a wide variety of builds and is capable of both macro game (like his 2nd game vs grubby) but also cheese.
All great terrans play like this. Mvp is good example, Taeja also does it (look his games vs. Bischu). Terran has tons of different openings and going 1 rax fe every time is just stupid.
ForGG has great multitasking, mechanics, micro, macro. His weakest link is decision making, I think. He sometimes overcommits in aggression instead of getting an extra base behind his aggression.
You can't be good B03,5,7 etc. player if you do same shit every time.
Yeah. You're not supposed to win by dropping 2 full medivacs - I doubt Forgg was expecting the lack of anything. Grubby got greedy with his tech and got punished.
On August 12 2012 22:58 Daniel C wrote: wow...why do zergs not learn to split up their deathball??
Because it's not much of a deathball if it's split up. Miya played really weird though, he shouldn't have gotten into that position to begin with if he just made enough static defense
"You shall not whine about balance in SC2" "You shall not whine about balance in SC2" "You shall not whine about balance in SC2" "You shall not whine about balance in SC2" "You shall not whine about balance in SC2" "You shall not whine about balance in SC2" "You shall not whine about balance in SC2" "You shall not whine about balance in SC2" "You shall not whine about balance in SC2"
On August 13 2012 00:27 Doublemint wrote: gah... I need a chalkboard sooo bad
"You shall not whine about balance in SC2" "You shall not whine about balance in SC2" "You shall not whine about balance in SC2" "You shall not whine about balance in SC2" "You shall not whine about balance in SC2" "You shall not whine about balance in SC2" "You shall not whine about balance in SC2" "You shall not whine about balance in SC2" "You shall not whine about balance in SC2"
...
Balance aside, this type of stuff is so boring and shouldn't be common in the game.
On August 13 2012 00:31 Psyclon wrote: Someone summarize this game plz, had to go out for a while.
grubby take a huge lead (200 supply vs 120 supply), Miya decide to camp on 3 base while grubby is mining the map out. Grubby can't rly find a way to attack Miya. Now Miya managed to secure his part of the map.
On August 13 2012 00:31 Psyclon wrote: Someone summarize this game plz, had to go out for a while.
Grubby got a lead by denying miya's 4th for a while and expanding a lot on his own, so miya did what every zerg does in that situation and just sat on his bases, made 500000 spines and a shit ton of infestors while slowly taking a 5th and 6th and denying grubby from taking the center bases. Grubby's on a carrier void ray HT army but keeps losing chunks of it in bad engagements and the game seems pretty even at this point because nobody can actually attack the other guy without losing their entire army
It seems stupid that zerg just can go behind so many spines like that. I don't normally complain, and especially not about PvZ because i don't play either of the races, but this just seems so silly...
On August 13 2012 00:31 Psyclon wrote: Someone summarize this game plz, had to go out for a while.
Grubby had an unbelieavable advantage early game. Killed the third, toke his 4th because Mya 3rd. Though Mya had a lot of static defense and managed to stabilize.
Mya then didn't make mistakes anymore and slowly massed an army which can not be beaten by Protoss : infestors/bl/static defense.
On August 13 2012 00:31 Psyclon wrote: Someone summarize this game plz, had to go out for a while.
Grubby got a lead by denying miya's 4th for a while and expanding a lot on his own, so miya did what every zerg does in that situation and just sat on his bases, made 500000 spines and a shit ton of infestors while slowly taking a 5th and 6th and denying grubby from taking the center bases. Grubby's on a carrier void ray HT army but keeps losing chunks of it in bad engagements and the game seems pretty even at this point because nobody can actually attack the other guy without losing their entire army
It's not really even because Miya has 395018613 Spines which isn't shown in the army supply.
On August 13 2012 00:31 Psyclon wrote: Someone summarize this game plz, had to go out for a while.
Grubby got a lead by denying miya's 4th for a while and expanding a lot on his own, so miya did what every zerg does in that situation and just sat on his bases, made 500000 spines and a shit ton of infestors while slowly taking a 5th and 6th and denying grubby from taking the center bases. Grubby's on a carrier void ray HT army but keeps losing chunks of it in bad engagements and the game seems pretty even at this point because nobody can actually attack the other guy without losing their entire army
It's not really even because Miya has 395018613 Spines which isn't shown in the army supply.
But he can't just uproot the spines and go walk across the map with them, plus grubby has the 2 center bases now. As long as he doesn't really fuck up he can keep chipping away at miya's army and recall out
On August 13 2012 00:31 Psyclon wrote: Someone summarize this game plz, had to go out for a while.
Grubby got a lead by denying miya's 4th for a while and expanding a lot on his own, so miya did what every zerg does in that situation and just sat on his bases, made 500000 spines and a shit ton of infestors while slowly taking a 5th and 6th and denying grubby from taking the center bases. Grubby's on a carrier void ray HT army but keeps losing chunks of it in bad engagements and the game seems pretty even at this point because nobody can actually attack the other guy without losing their entire army
It's not really even because Miya has 395018613 Spines which isn't shown in the army supply.
But he can't just uproot the spines and go walk across the map with them, plus grubby has the 2 center bases now. As long as he doesn't really fuck up he can keep chipping away at miya's army and recall out
But he can poke out, kill a base and then retreat to his Spine Wall and Grubby can't punish him for it because he can use Fungal and a ton of Infested Terran to retreat safely. Also, eventually when Miya doesn't care about mining any more he can just uproot all his Spines and inch forward slowly.
I dont know if Grubby is microing bad or what, but that unit lost tab is crazy. Even if this is not imbalanced it is still very bad from a viewer perspective... Grubby has a huge bank but he simply cant kill him with 50 infestors on the field... Something should be done about spamming infestors like this.
btw. I play terran so I dont think I'm biased here....
Hey, I was just looking at Liquipedia, and I realized that the 2nd Invitational back in July appears to be incomplete. Out of curiousity, who ended up winning that?
On August 13 2012 00:40 Psyclon wrote: IMO Grubby can lose this only if he suddenly decides to eat his mouse and bash himself over the head with the keyboard!
Hes been slowly losing for half an hour. He can only win if Miya stops been cautious.
Miya wins so cost-effectively its not funny in every fight.
On August 13 2012 00:43 MangoMountain wrote: Grubby needs to make more HTs ._.
Not sure if a joke?
He had a ton of HTs and landed tons of fantastic storms. You can't retain templar like you can infestors though, so they were all wasted money in the end because all they could do was kill infested terrans.
On August 13 2012 00:43 MangoMountain wrote: Grubby needs to make more HTs ._.
Not sure if a joke?
He had a ton of HTs and landed tons of fantastic storms. You can't retain templar like you can infestors though, so they were all wasted money in the end because all they could do was kill infested terrans.
And the infested terrans is the only thing keeping miya from dying to the carriers
On August 13 2012 00:45 Qwerty85 wrote: Lol, Grubby will actually lose this?
No way you can beat zerg lategame if no mistake is done. this so called comeback is entirely logical.
This is similar to terran vs zerg when terran could make planetaries and mass ghost with 45 dmg snipe - only 10x worse... I don't think I ever saw a game where 1 player had 40-50.000 more on units lost.
On August 13 2012 00:43 MangoMountain wrote: Grubby needs to make more HTs ._.
Not sure if a joke?
He had a ton of HTs and landed tons of fantastic storms. You can't retain templar like you can infestors though, so they were all wasted money in the end because all they could do was kill infested terrans.
And the infested terrans is the only thing keeping miya from dying to the carriers
He has over 30 Infestors, you can't make that many HT without the rest of your army sucking.
On August 13 2012 00:43 MangoMountain wrote: Grubby needs to make more HTs ._.
Not sure if a joke?
He had a ton of HTs and landed tons of fantastic storms. You can't retain templar like you can infestors though, so they were all wasted money in the end because all they could do was kill infested terrans.
And the infested terrans is the only thing keeping miya from dying to the carriers
And the spores and the corruptors. It takes two storms to kill infested terrans in their eggs and templar have to get in range of BLs and sacrifice themselves. Infestors can cast infested terrans at long range and retreat and build an unbeatable army. It doesn't work. Thats basically the game we just watched.
On August 13 2012 00:45 Qwerty85 wrote: Lol, Grubby will actually lose this?
No way you can beat zerg lategame if no mistake is done. this so called comeback is entirely logical.
This is similar to terran vs zerg when terran could make planetaries and mass ghost with 45 dmg snipe - only 10x worse... I don't think I ever saw a game where 1 player had 40-50.000 more on units lost.
Not true at all. Terran has a theoretical army which can destroy zerg, particulary when they trade their SCV for mule at the end. That theoretical army might be very hard to switch to (mass vikings/ravens/bc/tanks/thors/ghosts), but at least it exists.
Protoss on the other hand has nothing except waiting for a positional mistake and vortexing. Psychologically, it's far more depressing.
seriously, I wish the protoss was not grubby but someone with less sportsmanship so that he also would sit in his base with his thumb up his ass... what a fucking failure of a game...
On August 13 2012 00:54 Qwerty85 wrote: Finnaly this is over. Now send this to David Kim... If same principles apply as in late game TvZ, zerg needs a late game nerf vs. protoss...
Protoss just need something to be the equivalent of the Terran MULE or the Zerg Infestors, both allow the armies to be worth much more in supply, lol.
Would help if Interceptors were free to build. >.>
On August 13 2012 00:54 Derrida wrote: seriously, I wish the protoss was not grubby but someone with less sportsmanship so that he also would sit in his base with his thumb up his ass... what a fucking failure of a game...
If Grubby sits in his base, then he'll lose. If Miya sits in his base he'll win.
On August 13 2012 00:54 Derrida wrote: seriously, I wish the protoss was not grubby but someone with less sportsmanship so that he also would sit in his base with his thumb up his ass... what a fucking failure of a game...
If Grubby sits in his base, then he'll lose. If Miya sits in his base he'll win.
I don't see how that works if protoss actively kills creep tumors, disabling the zerg from moving its static defenses with its army (not saying you're wrong, but I literally do not see how Z wins in that case).
Grubby messed it up himself, stop saying the game is broken or whatnot.. any decent pro should be able to win this with freaking 10k 10k in the bank no matter if zerg is imba or not...
On August 13 2012 00:54 Derrida wrote: seriously, I wish the protoss was not grubby but someone with less sportsmanship so that he also would sit in his base with his thumb up his ass... what a fucking failure of a game...
If Grubby sits in his base, then he'll lose. If Miya sits in his base he'll win.
I don't see how that works if protoss actively kills creep tumors, disabling the zerg from moving its static defenses with its army (not saying you're wrong, but I literally do not see how Z wins in that case).
Protoss kills tumours: Z stays on base with his doom army. Unable to stalemate.
Protoss doesn't kill tumours: Z has a doom army with mobile spine crawlers.
Grubby threw this game away by camping on his base and underestimating his 20 minute advantage. He got cocky afterwards thinking he could starve his opponent. He made poor decisions and deserved the loss.
On August 13 2012 00:58 Day9notdead wrote: Grubby messed it up himself, stop saying the game is broken or whatnot.. any decent pro should be able to win this with freaking 10k 10k in the bank no matter if zerg is imba or not...
On August 13 2012 00:57 Derrida wrote:I don't see how that works if protoss actively kills creep tumors, disabling the zerg from moving its static defenses with its army (not saying you're wrong, but I literally do not see how Z wins in that case).
You can't deny the zerg moving its creep. At the most basic level you can create tumors behind the spine wall which will spread creep in front, move one layer forward, rinse and repeat. Then you get into comparative range of the army and particularly infested terran/BL and it just doesn't work. And of course cannons don't work as well as spines/spores because the units attacking them are free.
On August 13 2012 00:58 Day9notdead wrote: Grubby messed it up himself, stop saying the game is broken or whatnot.. any decent pro should be able to win this with freaking 10k 10k in the bank no matter if zerg is imba or not...
Grubby actually played it well, he kept killing bases(he was 5 to 3 at 1 point), eventually though with the high infestor count there was no possible way for him to get a good engagement.
On August 13 2012 00:57 Derrida wrote:I don't see how that works if protoss actively kills creep tumors, disabling the zerg from moving its static defenses with its army (not saying you're wrong, but I literally do not see how Z wins in that case).
You can't deny the zerg moving its creep. At the most basic level you can create tumors behind the spine wall which will spread creep in front, move one layer forward, rinse and repeat. Then you get into comparative range of the army and particularly infested terran/BL and it just doesn't work. And of course cannons don't work as well as spines/spores because the units attacking them are free.
Well in the end he was something like 40-50.000 behind in units lost. Usually protoss is the one who is ahead in this stat so I'm not really sure what Grubby could have done to engage efficiently?
Spines and spores are 0 supply, infestors use only energy. It is very hard to be cost efficient against that, even with MC level micro.
On August 13 2012 00:58 Day9notdead wrote: Grubby messed it up himself, stop saying the game is broken or whatnot.. any decent pro should be able to win this with freaking 10k 10k in the bank no matter if zerg is imba or not...
You'd think that, wouldn't you.
well, there were quite a few games in the past where both toss and zerg were floating a ton of resources with map split in half. And it did not necessarily end up with zerg winning. Say, the last one which comes to my mind, MC vs Ret on daybreak, don't remember the tourney exactly.. the point is the map was split, but MC just crushed Ret's "ultimate end game army" by being smart about the way he engages and having the right army composition himself..
On August 13 2012 00:59 Iberville wrote: Grubby threw this game away by camping on his base and underestimating his 20 minute advantage. He got cocky afterwards thinking he could starve his opponent. He made poor decisions and deserved the loss.
I guess he should have jump into the spines and infestors then !
Everyone is saying that grubby did some huge mistake (to lose a game 120 vs 200 supply as protoss it must be really huge), but no one is actually saying what he should have done.
On August 13 2012 00:58 Day9notdead wrote: Grubby messed it up himself, stop saying the game is broken or whatnot.. any decent pro should be able to win this with freaking 10k 10k in the bank no matter if zerg is imba or not...
You'd think that, wouldn't you.
well, there were quite a few games in the past where both toss and zerg were floating a ton of resources with map split in half. And it did not necessarily end up with zerg winning. Say, the last one which comes to my mind, MC vs Ret on daybreak, don't remember the tourney exactly.. the point is the map was split, but MC just crushed Ret's "ultimate end game army" by being smart about the way he engages and having the right army composition himself..
You mean, Ret attacking and mispositionning his blords twice.
Just something I want to add into the balance whine going on.
Perspective.
Miya played really well to get to the point where he could win. Grubby also played really weel up until about the time Khaldor's stream crashed. When i switched to another stream, grubby had lost an engagement and it went down hill from there.
It looks like GRubby cracked 1st at 80 minutes of game time.
HOWEVER. The fact that the zerg was able to lose that much resources early, and sit behind spines until he maxed while mining off of no more than 2 bases while heavily upgrading seems a tad , won't lie. Grubby had 200/200 and 7k 4k min/gas, vs 200/200 min gas and 130 pop from miya and he couldnt actually attack into it, seems for the MU, won't lie.
The way Miya was able to build a believable defense behind a 'static' defense wall while teching and expanding is something toss cannot do, nor does toss have an easy and believable way of cracking that wall thru the units the Toss arsenal posseses. Collosus, Carriers and Voidrays are the only real way for Toss to do it, and all 3 are countered by corruptors, infestors and/or broodlords. Whereas mass cannons supported by HT's, will die to infested terrans/broodlords really easiliy.
Terran has siege tanks and BC'sto break walls, zerg has infested terrans/brooodlords. Toss has collo and Carriers, one of which is outranged by the wall defense and the other with a unit that costs minerals to replace, despite being the most expensive unit in the toss arsenal .
Anyone else think about how that last match would have gone with a Terran? Think we might've seen Auto-Turret vs. Infested Terran battles deciding the game, lol.
On August 13 2012 00:58 Day9notdead wrote: Grubby messed it up himself, stop saying the game is broken or whatnot.. any decent pro should be able to win this with freaking 10k 10k in the bank no matter if zerg is imba or not...
You'd think that, wouldn't you.
well, there were quite a few games in the past where both toss and zerg were floating a ton of resources with map split in half. And it did not necessarily end up with zerg winning. Say, the last one which comes to my mind, MC vs Ret on daybreak, don't remember the tourney exactly.. the point is the map was split, but MC just crushed Ret's "ultimate end game army" by being smart about the way he engages and having the right army composition himself..
You mean, Ret attacking and mispositionning his blords twice.
Ok, so you are saying that big zvp battles should be won by protoss while zerg does not make a single mistake? Or, let's just say players should not make mistakes at all ever and games could still be won.
I think the one who makes less mistakes wins, simple as that. In this game Grubby wasted too many resources.. that's why he lost really
On August 13 2012 00:58 Day9notdead wrote: Grubby messed it up himself, stop saying the game is broken or whatnot.. any decent pro should be able to win this with freaking 10k 10k in the bank no matter if zerg is imba or not...
You'd think that, wouldn't you.
well, there were quite a few games in the past where both toss and zerg were floating a ton of resources with map split in half. And it did not necessarily end up with zerg winning. Say, the last one which comes to my mind, MC vs Ret on daybreak, don't remember the tourney exactly.. the point is the map was split, but MC just crushed Ret's "ultimate end game army" by being smart about the way he engages and having the right army composition himself..
You mean, Ret attacking and mispositionning his blords twice.
Ok, so you are saying that big zvp battles should be won by protoss while zerg does not make a single mistake? Or, let's just say players should not make mistakes at all ever and games could still be won.
I think the one who makes less mistakes wins, simple as that. In this game Grubby wasted too many resources.. that's why he lost really
I think the exchange should be even. If a players gets an auto-win when no serious mistake is made, then there is a clear balance issue. Even though this doesn't affect my Master league games, I see this as a huge problem in high level ZvP.
On August 13 2012 01:33 Zambrah wrote: Anyone else think about how that last match would have gone with a Terran? Think we might've seen Auto-Turret vs. Infested Terran battles deciding the game, lol.
Terran would have won when it was 200vs120 supply, easily : D
It's hard to believe that people want Protoss army to be as strong as the Zerg army, when Protoss can do shits like cannon rush, and many different timings off of 2/3 bases in the early/mid game. ( and how many times did you see a Zerg died to these timings ?).
And balance whining can only be discussed when top players play ( I mean code S players )
On August 13 2012 01:24 Arachne wrote: Just something I want to add into the balance whine going on.
Perspective.
Miya played really well to get to the point where he could win. Grubby also played really weel up until about the time Khaldor's stream crashed. When i switched to another stream, grubby had lost an engagement and it went down hill from there.
It looks like GRubby cracked 1st at 80 minutes of game time.
HOWEVER. The fact that the zerg was able to lose that much resources early, and sit behind spines until he maxed while mining off of no more than 2 bases while heavily upgrading seems a tad , won't lie. Grubby had 200/200 and 7k 4k min/gas, vs 200/200 min gas and 130 pop from miya and he couldnt actually attack into it, seems for the MU, won't lie.
The way Miya was able to build a believable defense behind a 'static' defense wall while teching and expanding is something toss cannot do, nor does toss have an easy and believable way of cracking that wall thru the units the Toss arsenal posseses. Collosus, Carriers and Voidrays are the only real way for Toss to do it, and all 3 are countered by corruptors, infestors and/or broodlords. Whereas mass cannons supported by HT's, will die to infested terrans/broodlords really easiliy.
Terran has siege tanks and BC'sto break walls, zerg has infested terrans/brooodlords. Toss has collo and Carriers, one of which is outranged by the wall defense and the other with a unit that costs minerals to replace, despite being the most expensive unit in the toss arsenal .
In my opinion, had Grubby not passively transitioned to carrier, but instead relentlessly attacked with gateway/robo tech, Miya would not have been able to build up his static defense to a point where it cannot be broken as we have seen. But well, could have, should have, would have.
edit: What is to learn from this is that protoss cannot really sit back and tech / macro up after getting an early game lead like that, at least not for so long the way Grubby did it. Should the zerg get his perfect incredibly cost efficient defenses up (broodlord and infestor behind a wall of spines and spores), they can turtle the protoss to death.
I think you missed the masses of spine crawlers that were built along the ramp of the 2 bases. The only real chance grubby had of breaking that with no risk was to tech to carriers. Also, off 3 bases, if Miya had carried on going mutalisks and Grubby had transitioned out of blink stalkers, there could have been a problem.
If grubby had decided to attack into the spine crawlers and miya was freeing up supply for infestor ling (remember he lost his mutalisks stupidly), all those stalkers would have been lost with no real hope of coming back.
With zerg's ability to transition into 21 units of any type (or 42 lings) with just one inject cycle, its not 100% easy to creak down a spinecrawler wall with stalkers, especially attacking up a ramp into 7+ spines with armoured units.
Spines scare me far more tan cannons or bunkers do as a Protoss, as I know at least bunkers cant be repaired without scv's, and cannons are pretty much useless as a major deterent against attack. Spines on the other hand do hurt. And lots of them, with mutalisk back up, can decimate any toss force i've tried to put together against them without decent numbers of zealots, immortals or colossus.
On August 13 2012 00:58 Day9notdead wrote: Grubby messed it up himself, stop saying the game is broken or whatnot.. any decent pro should be able to win this with freaking 10k 10k in the bank no matter if zerg is imba or not...
You'd think that, wouldn't you.
well, there were quite a few games in the past where both toss and zerg were floating a ton of resources with map split in half. And it did not necessarily end up with zerg winning. Say, the last one which comes to my mind, MC vs Ret on daybreak, don't remember the tourney exactly.. the point is the map was split, but MC just crushed Ret's "ultimate end game army" by being smart about the way he engages and having the right army composition himself..
You mean, Ret attacking and mispositionning his blords twice.
Ok, so you are saying that big zvp battles should be won by protoss while zerg does not make a single mistake? Or, let's just say players should not make mistakes at all ever and games could still be won.
I think the one who makes less mistakes wins, simple as that. In this game Grubby wasted too many resources.. that's why he lost really
I think the exchange should be even. If a players gets an auto-win when no serious mistake is made, then there is a clear balance issue. Even though this doesn't affect my Master league games, I see this as a huge problem in high level ZvP.
Well, I think it's obvious Grubby didn't do enough in that match, and what he did wasn't good enough. So we have one player playing almost perfectly from the bad position he was put in, that is Miya, and the other one who just didn't play well.. No surprise the former player won.
Now, if we talk about details: even after Grubby missed all those timings, he still had all time in the world to get the right army composition. Which could be mass carriers plus mothership plus some templars.I think everyone agrees such army has a pretty damn good shot at killing whatever Miya had. It all comes down to engagements, positioning but..still it's not like you can't crack a starving zerg with it, or at least trade cost efficiently. However, he never really massed that huge air ball. Instead he was making and wasting pretty much for nothing dts, zealots, archons, voidrays...
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