I'm a little confused as well. I thought tonight's games were supposed to be the rest of the non-Kespa qualifier? When will they be played? Aren't the matches you listed tomorrow night's matches?
On July 28 2012 20:18 maybenexttime wrote: So KeSPA qualifier + GSL qualifier -> 30 players pair somehow -> 15 players + MVP? How were the players paired up?
Thanks, btw.
random pairings between the 30, pretty much
On July 28 2012 20:26 Gorlin wrote: I'm a little confused as well. I thought tonight's games were supposed to be the rest of the non-Kespa qualifier? When will they be played? Aren't the matches you listed tomorrow night's matches?
the rest are on august 1st because slayers/fxo are busy for now haha :D
On July 28 2012 20:18 maybenexttime wrote: So KeSPA qualifier + GSL qualifier -> 30 players pair somehow -> 15 players + MVP? How were the players paired up?
On July 29 2012 10:11 Nimic wrote: This whole Korean qualifiers thing has been really confusing. Luckily, I am easily distracted by good games of Starcraft 2.
I think the reason for this is because they wanted the qualifiers to be held at e-stars (which they did these few days, that is why you see the huge setup for what is basically the prelims.). But there was a conflict with GSTL So they had to move some groups to Aug 1st.
Polt is the obvious favorite against Jaehoon, but let's see if BW pros have come up with anything new against a TvP master like Polt, or will simply overwhelm him with mechanics.
On July 29 2012 10:51 Diizzy wrote: why does the event is way later than the time on the op?
Because not the whole event gets stream.
The event itself starts in about 5 minutes (games slightly later due to setup), 1 gsl vs gsl and 2 Kespa v Kespa matches will be played. But no streams. The stream begin for the 2nd set of games which are gsl vs Kespa. And multiple matches will be played simultaneous and only 1 stream so we get to see 1 match at a time. Which match is up to OGN.
Polt's pretty much been unbeatable in Korea since he swore off international tournaments and streaming, so it would suck if he beat Sage/DRG 2-0 and then lost to Jaehoon.
On July 29 2012 11:40 Fionn wrote: Polt's pretty much been unbeatable in Korea since he swore off international tournaments and streaming, so it would suck if he beat Sage/DRG 2-0 and then lost to Jaehoon.
On July 29 2012 11:40 Fionn wrote: Polt's pretty much been unbeatable in Korea since he swore off international tournaments and streaming, so it would suck if he beat Sage/DRG 2-0 and then lost to Jaehoon.
Oh lawd, if this happens I will cry a little.
Hahaha to Jaehoon of all people xD I would laugh so damn hard xD
The only ways I can see Polt losing is if he gets cheesed and does not respond well, or goes full retard and throws games away. However, with Polt's current condition in Korea, and the overall skill difference between BW and GSL, Polt should win.
On July 29 2012 12:00 PhoenixVoid wrote: The only ways I can see Polt losing is if he gets cheesed and does not respond well, or goes full retard and throws games away. However, with Polt's current condition in Korea, and the overall skill difference between BW and GSL, Polt should win.
He should win easily.... Unless Jaehoon discovers recall in Sc2.... god help us all if he does! Muahahahah
Note: I actually really like Jaehoon as a player. my last posts though negative about him are purely for fun. <3
So wait. Are they going to be streaming these games which are already finished? Or something else?
There are 10 matches today and 3 already played. Matches 4-6 will begin in about 30 mins. 7-8 1 hour after that and 9-10 one hour after that. Broadcast will start in 30 mins so we will see one of the 4-6 matches. And then one of the 7-8 and one of the 9-10. Matches 4-10 are all gsl vs Kespa.
I got to say, im a bit obsessed with kespa's growth and the kespa vs gsl thing lol. I watch every proleague match and every kespa vs gsl or kespa vs kespa match I possibly can.
On July 29 2012 12:46 Maghetti wrote: I got to say, im a bit obsessed with kespa's growth and the kespa vs gsl thing lol. I watch every proleague match and every kespa vs gsl or kespa vs kespa match I possibly can.
On July 29 2012 12:46 Maghetti wrote: I got to say, im a bit obsessed with kespa's growth and the kespa vs gsl thing lol. I watch every proleague match and every kespa vs gsl or kespa vs kespa match I possibly can.
you'll see a lot at WCS and OSL very soon!
Yup, and you will likely see Kespa players trying to qualify for GSL4 as well. Team league might take a bit longer but we could have teams playing both PL and GSTL as well.
On July 29 2012 12:46 Maghetti wrote: I got to say, im a bit obsessed with kespa's growth and the kespa vs gsl thing lol. I watch every proleague match and every kespa vs gsl or kespa vs kespa match I possibly can.
you'll see a lot at WCS and OSL very soon!
Yup, and you will likely see Kespa players trying to qualify for GSL4 as well. Team league might take a bit longer but we could have teams playing both PL and GSTL as well.
Hey guys, was there a broadcast for wcg yesterday? I know that the broadcast was scheduled quite late compared to the matches being earlier. I ended up going to sleep. Did they end up broadcasting wcg for sc2 yesterday? Where can I find it? (Gom's site does not have any VODs from yesterday).
On July 29 2012 13:03 larse wrote: Did WCG always partner with OGN in broadcasting the matches before?
yes for a long time. this includes last year when ogn broadcasted wcg korea which was sc2; before that bw.
Thanks for the info. If it was like this, it is weird though that WCG gradually became such a bad event with the partnership with the best gaming channel in Korea.
On July 29 2012 13:03 larse wrote: Did WCG always partner with OGN in broadcasting the matches before?
yes for a long time. this includes last year when ogn broadcasted wcg korea which was sc2; before that bw.
Thanks for the info. If it was like this, it is weird though that WCG gradually became such a bad event with the partnership with the best gaming channel in Korea.
one or two shitty judges (who would be the wcg staff, not ogn) doesn't really mean anything
Parting vs Snow starting right now. Gomtv has some message saying waiting for previous match, use one of the other streams (I'm on twitch ognunofficial)
I like this build from Snow....have no idea if it's actually a good one though.
Ahhh poor raven. This is brutal I keep hearing "Jang Min Chul" from the commentators...what does this mean? I hear it so often in every cast...can't be the player.
Snow looked like he was stabilizing for a second there but the double drop might have taken too much from his core army. Parting's storms were really good though. Ah well, no shame in losing to Parting though.
On July 29 2012 13:33 Neo7 wrote: Looks like Snow is attempting to apply BW TvP in SC2. That doesn't work very well.
Yeah. .Tanks just don't work well in the late game due to upgrades. They looked ok because they were in a defensive position and traded ok. But there was no way for Snow to move out or take a 4th. All he could do was drop but very hard with warp ins.
On July 29 2012 13:32 Talionis wrote: I keep hearing "Jang Min Chul" from the commentators...what does this mean? I hear it so often in every cast...can't be the player.
he was actually saying jang yoon chul and that was the name of the terran (snow's name).
On July 29 2012 13:37 haka wrote: Snow looked like he was stabilizing for a second there but the double drop might have taken too much from his core army. Parting's storms were really good though. Ah well, no shame in losing to Parting though.
He could have held for longer if he didn't go for the double drop. But he would have been stuck on 3 bases vs 4 base toss and we know where that leads...
On July 29 2012 13:42 Fionn wrote: So Snow, Soulkey and Jaehoon get to go up against potentially the best PvT'er, thebest TvZ'er and the best TvP'er in the world.
On July 29 2012 13:42 Fionn wrote: So Snow, Soulkey and Jaehoon get to go up against potentially the best PvT'er, thebest TvZ'er and the best TvP'er in the world.
SoulKey doing little mini baneling busts, interesting. The first one I was laughing at but it ended up being surprisingly annoying, although not more than that.
I like that 4th, basically circumvents the entire basic problem of zvt on this map where you have to stop terran from getting a good siege position on top of the cliff going towards the third. Works better since he went muta, keeping Tajea on 3 bases.
On July 29 2012 14:01 Tachion wrote: So taeja is mortal afterall
Nope nevermind, he appears to be some jester god playing with my emotions.
It's close. He'll still have to beat this hive army once. Soulkey is really hurting for gas though since he couldnt get up a stable 4 let alone a 5th so it'll be hard if he loses his BLs and Infestors. could still go either way
but from this point TaeJa should win because Soulkey shouldnt be able to remake a strong hive army
On July 29 2012 14:06 PowerDes wrote: Soulkey was too aggressive with his ling/bane earlier on, lost to much
Yeah he overextended with the ling/bane/infestor aggression and lost too much.
If he had started the hive tech transition after his banes took out those SCV's while playing defensive he would have been in a much better state. Also after losing his 4th he never re-expanded which is strange.
On July 29 2012 14:07 figq wrote: Shit, SK with such poor control in that battle :/
Yeah, the infestors were pretty late getting in there. Good fungals, but woulda been better if he got them earlier. And engaging by a planetary isn't too effective.
This game kind of showed that Soulkey has the mechanics down but he's not experienced enough with the game.
He 100% should have won that game, he probably would have if he had something on the ground to absorb some marine fire. I'm not sure where all his lings went.
Soulkey looked awesome in that game, his late game is lacking but probably from experience. He's getting a taste of what code S is really like and he looks as if he's almost there at that level.
he ran an infestor to fungal scvs/mules at the third (he did get one off, but ofc that does shit). Like there was no reason to do that. still, cost effective trades for taeja after that and good job killing expos.
On July 29 2012 14:07 figq wrote: Shit, SK with such poor control in that battle :/
Yeah, the infestors were pretty late getting in there. Good fungals, but woulda been better if he got them earlier. And engaging by a planetary isn't too effective.
The corruptors, at first he was targeting the vikings, but then he got distracted and let them all just wander into the main bulk of marines for no reason.
Taeja shouldn't have moved his 3rd cc to the 3rd so early, it's leaving him exposed to a lot of runby's. Think he's lost 2-3 full energy mules and a bunch of scvs already.
SK's macro is killing me, its just army after freaking army of little lings and banelings. So beautiful. Now imagine what happens in 1 year these games are going to be even more unreal.
You know counterintuitively, the lack of creep spread for SoulKey may be working well for him - Taeja isn't as likely to scan to kill tumors, so he misses the burrowed banelings
I really liked the counter attacks by the zerglings and it seemed like the Zerg was doing pretty well until he ran out of money before being able to transition to hive.
On July 29 2012 14:34 Caesarion wrote: So, TaeJa can't die. What's new?
SK lost that more than TaeJa won it. He constantly played better until it got to the late game. SK didn't seem to know exactly what to do. I'm guessing most people don't live long enough for SK to play many games that late.
On July 29 2012 14:34 haka wrote: shheeesh SK looking scary midgame. Just falls flat in later.
Because he puts all his eggs into the midgame.
Yup. A lot of people are saying SK should transition to hive. If he did try the transition, he wouldn't have be able to contest the 4th of Taeja and also might have lost his own fourth before BLs would be out. I am not saying he shouldn't, but there are risks involve when you try to transition. But his infestor usage seems to be not that great. You can't engage Taeja with banelings off creep without fungals.
The games were not as close as it looked.... Muta ling bling is a time bomb that becomes useless after medivacs and +2/+2 are done... Soulkey played like Code A from 2011
On July 29 2012 14:34 Caesarion wrote: So, TaeJa can't die. What's new?
SK lost that more than TaeJa won it. He constantly played better until it got to the late game. SK didn't seem to know exactly what to do. I'm guessing most people don't live long enough for SK to play many games that late.
Yeah Taeja's early game was greedy and he got punished for it - but he was skilled enough to survive to late game where he really excels.
On July 29 2012 14:34 Caesarion wrote: So, TaeJa can't die. What's new?
SK lost that more than TaeJa won it. He constantly played better until it got to the late game. SK didn't seem to know exactly what to do. I'm guessing most people don't live long enough for SK to play many games that late.
I am not sure. They were playing very evenly. Soulkey was trading lings for econ and with mules, I think it was actually pretty even. It was close in the mid game because Soulkey stuck with ling/bling while Taeja just defended. Ling/blings looks good in mid game but once the upgrades and thors come in, you can no longer trade effectively. And SK had no transition because he whole game plan was to kill Taeja in the mid game.
On July 29 2012 14:41 quannguyen wrote: Excuse me for asking this, but will we have Proleague games later today? (by later I mean after thw WCG qualifier)
On July 29 2012 14:51 NuKE[vZ] wrote: I might be stupid but I can't find results up until this live match(Jaehoon vs. Polt)... anyone able to provide me with results?|
<3
Monster > Genius Trap > Dear JangBi > sHy BaBy > finale Heart > ZerO TaeJa > SK PartinG > Snow
I predicted 3 on the pool but I really think 4 will make it through. I just like heart and don't want him to lose but then I noticed vampire vs paralyze ... hmm at least I was right about baby winning
On July 29 2012 14:51 NuKE[vZ] wrote: I might be stupid but I can't find results up until this live match(Jaehoon vs. Polt)... anyone able to provide me with results?|
On July 29 2012 14:51 NuKE[vZ] wrote: I might be stupid but I can't find results up until this live match(Jaehoon vs. Polt)... anyone able to provide me with results?|
<3
Monster > Genius Trap > Dear JangBi > sHy BaBy > finale Heart > ZerO TaeJa > SK PartinG > Snow
thanks man, appreciate it..
so basically BaBy is the only one that can hang with GSL members... as well as REALITY?
On July 29 2012 15:01 Gosi wrote: It's like Jaehoon studied the replays from IEM March 2011 when Squirtle and Ace raped everyone with 2 base Colossus.
And missed the entire point of it. It is contingent on terran overreacting with vikings in response to seeing 1 colossus. By now its so common that Polt easily knew it was a bluff tech. You cannot justify the price of robo bay for 1 colossus unless you make the terran waste gas on vikings.
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
On July 29 2012 14:51 NuKE[vZ] wrote: I might be stupid but I can't find results up until this live match(Jaehoon vs. Polt)... anyone able to provide me with results?|
<3
Monster > Genius Trap > Dear JangBi > sHy BaBy > finale Heart > ZerO TaeJa > SK PartinG > Snow
thanks man, appreciate it..
so basically BaBy is the only one that can hang with GSL members... as well as REALITY?
sigh.
well...Jaedong technically hasn't played any Non-kespa players; as well as effort, Roro, so there's hope!
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
the elephant is dead.
Really? That was not what the article was claiming at all. T________T
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
the elephant is dead.
At the time that article was written it was probably true. A lot has changed since it was written and the fact that the Kespa players are already catching up and taking games from non-kespa players shows very good promise.
On July 29 2012 15:00 jacksonlee wrote: As I thought, kespa players cannot touch perennial GSL players. Polt just embarassed him
Actually, Jjakji, symbol, Nestea has all lost to Kespa players. It is more like top code B players playing code S players. Code B players can and will win vs Code S. it is just that the win rate will be much lower than 50.
On July 29 2012 15:13 Waxangel wrote: the elephant became whatever people wanted it to mean, for better or for worse, much like the word "esports"
Seriously.
I don't see the big deal, been watching BW since forever but I love both games and all its players...I don't get the hostility..elephants or no elephants..
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
the elephant is dead.
Well they have not swithed fully they still play BW in PL .
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
the elephant is dead.
Well they have not swithed fully they still play BW in PL .
If you look at the PL BW games, they arent practicing BW much. Probably something like 80/20 split.
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
the elephant is dead.
Well they have not swithed fully they still play BW in PL .
If you look at the PL BW games, they arent practicing BW much. Probably something like 80/20 split.
I trust your grand total of 1 post in brood war forum as an authority on the matter.
On July 29 2012 15:20 raga4ka wrote: Jaehoon plays to passively . Even when he has a slight advantage early game he just sits home and defends .
I think that will come with more experience and practice. You see this with foreigners a lot as well, they have a lead and doesn't push it. What makes the great players great is their ability to push when they have an advantage BUT doesn't overextend. This is try for both BW and SC and RTS in general.
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
the elephant is dead.
Well they have not swithed fully they still play BW in PL .
If you look at the PL BW games, they arent practicing BW much. Probably something like 80/20 split.
I trust your grand total of 1 post in brood war forum as an authority on the matter.
I think it was from an interview with a BW player or coach. And not sure why the number of posts means anything. Do you think they are practicing BW as much as SC2? It just makes sense to practice SC2 more at this point.
On July 29 2012 15:22 BuddhaMonk wrote: Yeah, with two immortals he could have really done damage before stim/medivacs, but he just sat at his base.
Not with losing all those sentries.
Losing the sentries made it very difficult for Jaehoon to push out against Polt, which allowed him to tech up to medivacs, and his posturing near Jaehoon's natural kept him pinned on 2 base while Polt took a third, and he just rolled him with his superior economy after forcing the cancel on Jaehoons third.
No one (who isn't an idiot) believes that the Kespa players won't at SOME point become superstars at SC2. But it's becoming apparent that they won't be right away, automatically. And as silly as that sounds, there were people who genuinely believed that they would.
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
the elephant is dead.
Well they have not swithed fully they still play BW in PL .
If you look at the PL BW games, they arent practicing BW much. Probably something like 80/20 split.
I trust your grand total of 1 post in brood war forum as an authority on the matter.
I think it was from an interview with a BW player or coach. And not sure why the number of posts means anything. Do you think they are practicing BW as much as SC2? It just makes sense to practice SC2 more at this point.
Taking even 20% away from their practice of SC2 is still 2-3 hours daily they could have invested into their future. Imagine what an extra 300-500 hours would have done for these players, most of whom can already compete on a code-b/a level.
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
the elephant is dead.
Well they have not swithed fully they still play BW in PL .
If you look at the PL BW games, they arent practicing BW much. Probably something like 80/20 split.
I trust your grand total of 1 post in brood war forum as an authority on the matter.
I think it was from an interview with a BW player or coach. And not sure why the number of posts means anything. Do you think they are practicing BW as much as SC2? It just makes sense to practice SC2 more at this point.
Taking even 20% away from their practice of SC2 is still 2-3 hours daily they could have invested into their future. Imagine what an extra 300-500 hours would have done for these players, most of whom can already compete on a code-b/a level.
People keep saying Code A level like it's nothing. I honestly don't think Flash or Soukey (much less jaehoon and the likes of Bisu who are having a rough time) would be able to qualify through the open GOMTV bracket
On July 29 2012 15:28 Nimic wrote: No one (who isn't an idiot) believes that the Kespa players won't at SOME point become superstars at SC2. But it's becoming apparent that they won't be right away, automatically. And as silly as that sounds, there were people who genuinely believed that they would.
I think some Kespa players will become superstars at SC2. But will it be the same players that dominated BW (TBLS, Jangbi, Fantasy, etc), I am not so sure. It is a big skill reset and everyone is starting over again. I think it a few more months and especially after HOTS, we will see SC2 dominated by some current SC2 players, some current S Class BW players and some current A/B class BW players. I think BW players will have a different 'hierarchy' compare to now.
Question: If Kespa pros switched last year when the Elephant article was published on TL, would the gap between GOM and Kespa have been as big? Or do you think they would have been much more competitive at the switch because the game wasn't as mapped out so their mechanics alone would have carried them farther?
Soulkey got pretty shafted with his matchup, though I suppose for him to really make it he'd have to beat a top player at some point, which was doubtful to happen =/
On July 29 2012 15:34 Mike15xp wrote: no jjakji v action?
I think the qualifiers are actually taking place at e-stars 2012 which is a gaming convention in seoul. Which is why you see the huge booth/stage setup. And only the 3 matches were saw were schedule for the main stage and thus broadcasted. The other games are being played in another room with rows of PCs and not being streamed.
On July 29 2012 15:37 red_ wrote: Soulkey got pretty shafted with his matchup, though I suppose for him to really make it he'd have to beat a top player at some point, which was doubtful to happen =/
Poor guy also got MMA in the first round of his WCS qualifier group...
On July 29 2012 15:36 Dakure wrote: Question: If Kespa pros switched last year when the Elephant article was published on TL, would the gap between GOM and Kespa have been as big? Or do you think they would have been much more competitive at the switch because the game wasn't as mapped out so their mechanics alone would have carried them farther?
If they trained as hard as the teams do for BW there is no doubt in my mind the current KeSPA players would be the best if they had switched a year ago.
On July 29 2012 15:36 Dakure wrote: Question: If Kespa pros switched last year when the Elephant article was published on TL, would the gap between GOM and Kespa have been as big? Or do you think they would have been much more competitive at the switch because the game wasn't as mapped out so their mechanics alone would have carried them farther?
If they trained as hard as the teams do for BW there is no doubt in my mind the current KeSPA players would be the best if they had switched a year ago.
Probably. But would their sponsors have followed them? One of the reasons BW players can focus on their practice is because they have big corporate sponsors which makes them able to give their players good salaries. Would Flash be Flash if he had to fly all over the world monthly to play in foreign events, or wake up in the middle of the night to play in European online Cup so he could make a good living? I agree that BW pros are very hard working and dedicated. But their team infrastructure allows them to do that as well. That is why we see foreigners who stay in korean pro house usually show significant improvement. And by all accounts, BW pro houses are much more established and well ran then SC2 pro houses.
On July 29 2012 15:36 Dakure wrote: Question: If Kespa pros switched last year when the Elephant article was published on TL, would the gap between GOM and Kespa have been as big? Or do you think they would have been much more competitive at the switch because the game wasn't as mapped out so their mechanics alone would have carried them farther?
If they trained as hard as the teams do for BW there is no doubt in my mind the current KeSPA players would be the best if they had switched a year ago.
Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I meant to ask how they would be last year when they first transitioned (assuming they transitioned last year). Would they be closer to Code S stars?
On July 29 2012 15:48 opterown wrote: oh quit complaining about the op, they're playing out of order and i can't update since my net cut out and i can't edit on 3g
Why make the LR thread if you know you can't update it?
On July 29 2012 15:48 opterown wrote: oh quit complaining about the op, they're playing out of order and i can't update since my net cut out and i can't edit on 3g
Why make the LR thread if you know you can't update it?
On July 29 2012 15:48 opterown wrote: oh quit complaining about the op, they're playing out of order and i can't update since my net cut out and i can't edit on 3g
Why make the LR thread if you know you can't update it?
On July 29 2012 15:48 opterown wrote: oh quit complaining about the op, they're playing out of order and i can't update since my net cut out and i can't edit on 3g
Why make the LR thread if you know you can't update it?
Luckily there's liquipedia...
Because their internet unexpectedly cut out after they made it?
On July 29 2012 15:47 kinverse wrote: Taeja's post-game interview:
- Any player in particulat you want to face in the finals? ▶ I want to face baby. I watched him today and he's really playing well. I think his medivac play is excellent. Also I personally think bogus is the best out of all the KeSPA players - I faced him once in ladder and his macro is scary.
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
the elephant is dead.
Not immediately. The article spoke of something around a month. Why? Because back then people just popped out of nowhere and dominated. The level of play was much lower than it is now. That is why the elephant "theory" did not claim that Kespa players could pull it off in the future. Now that the skill level is significantly higher, it will take them longer. However, we are already seeing them becoming competetive, and that is after only a couple of months, when they aren't even fully dedicated to the game. The elephant is alive and well.
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
the elephant is dead.
Not immediately. The article spoke of something around a month. Why? Because back then people just popped out of nowhere and dominated. The level of play was much lower than it is now. That is why the elephant "theory" did not claim that Kespa players could pull it off in the future. Now that the skill level is significantly higher, it will take them longer. However, we are already seeing them becoming competetive, and that is after only a couple of months, when they aren't even fully dedicated to the game. The elephant is alive and well.
It's already been glaringly obvious that the best BW players, Kespa and non-Kespa, weren't becoming the best SC2 players. This has hold true for War3 as well, Stephano was a semi-pro back then.
Since this premisse was one of the elephant paradigm (ie "bw code A" and particulary flash jaedong bisu dominating the scene right when they switch since most GSL players weren't code A), we can consider the elephant thread entirely irrelevant.
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
the elephant is dead.
Not immediately. The article spoke of something around a month. Why? Because back then people just popped out of nowhere and dominated. The level of play was much lower than it is now. That is why the elephant "theory" did not claim that Kespa players could pull it off in the future. Now that the skill level is significantly higher, it will take them longer. However, we are already seeing them becoming competetive, and that is after only a couple of months, when they aren't even fully dedicated to the game. The elephant is alive and well.
It's already been glaringly obvious that the best BW players, Kespa and non-Kespa, weren't becoming the best SC2 players. This has hold true for War3 as well, Stephano was a semi-pro back then.
Since this premisse was one of the elephant paradigm (ie "bw code A" and particulary flash jaedong bisu dominating the scene right when they switch since most GSL players weren't code A), we can consider the elephant thread entirely irrelevant.
I have to say I don't really have any idea what you are saying there.
Does anybody have any more information about Aug 1st? Apparently, there are supposed to finish the non-kespa preliminaries and also do the last 5 bo3s to determine the rest of the top 16. Is that right? Seems like quite a lot considering that they are supposed to do two long things in one day (preliminaries and playoffs for to 16). Is any of this supposed to be broadcast?
On July 29 2012 18:34 OnFiRe888 wrote: Does anybody have any more information about Aug 1st? Apparently, there are supposed to finish the non-kespa preliminaries and also do the last 5 bo3s to determine the rest of the top 16. Is that right? Seems like quite a lot considering that they are supposed to do two long things in one day (preliminaries and playoffs for to 16). Is any of this supposed to be broadcast?
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
the elephant is dead.
Not immediately. The article spoke of something around a month. Why? Because back then people just popped out of nowhere and dominated. The level of play was much lower than it is now. That is why the elephant "theory" did not claim that Kespa players could pull it off in the future. Now that the skill level is significantly higher, it will take them longer. However, we are already seeing them becoming competetive, and that is after only a couple of months, when they aren't even fully dedicated to the game. The elephant is alive and well.
It's already been glaringly obvious that the best BW players, Kespa and non-Kespa, weren't becoming the best SC2 players. This has hold true for War3 as well, Stephano was a semi-pro back then.
Since this premisse was one of the elephant paradigm (ie "bw code A" and particulary flash jaedong bisu dominating the scene right when they switch since most GSL players weren't code A), we can consider the elephant thread entirely irrelevant.
The only bw player that switched over during/just before his prime until recently was this up and comer that goes by Mvp, maybe you've heard of him, I hear he's won a tourny or two...
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
the elephant is dead.
Not immediately. The article spoke of something around a month. Why? Because back then people just popped out of nowhere and dominated. The level of play was much lower than it is now. That is why the elephant "theory" did not claim that Kespa players could pull it off in the future. Now that the skill level is significantly higher, it will take them longer. However, we are already seeing them becoming competetive, and that is after only a couple of months, when they aren't even fully dedicated to the game. The elephant is alive and well.
It's already been glaringly obvious that the best BW players, Kespa and non-Kespa, weren't becoming the best SC2 players. This has hold true for War3 as well, Stephano was a semi-pro back then.
Since this premisse was one of the elephant paradigm (ie "bw code A" and particulary flash jaedong bisu dominating the scene right when they switch since most GSL players weren't code A), we can consider the elephant thread entirely irrelevant.
I have to say I don't really have any idea what you are saying there.
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” "
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” "
Hot_Bid's quote?
It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article.
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
the elephant is dead.
Not immediately. The article spoke of something around a month. Why? Because back then people just popped out of nowhere and dominated. The level of play was much lower than it is now. That is why the elephant "theory" did not claim that Kespa players could pull it off in the future. Now that the skill level is significantly higher, it will take them longer. However, we are already seeing them becoming competetive, and that is after only a couple of months, when they aren't even fully dedicated to the game. The elephant is alive and well.
It's already been glaringly obvious that the best BW players, Kespa and non-Kespa, weren't becoming the best SC2 players. This has hold true for War3 as well, Stephano was a semi-pro back then.
Since this premisse was one of the elephant paradigm (ie "bw code A" and particulary flash jaedong bisu dominating the scene right when they switch since most GSL players weren't code A), we can consider the elephant thread entirely irrelevant.
What? 1)Allmost every the top Korean s2 players were former BW pro's 2) The article about the elephant never said the second they switched they would pwn. 3) The fact that 3-4 months in while still having to practice BW Kespa pro's are already taking b03 series off code A level players(Some Code S level players too)is fucking incredible
So in short you're pretty much wrong on every single level. The Elephants are marching along just fine
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” "
Hot_Bid's quote?
It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article.
The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time.
It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2.
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” "
Hot_Bid's quote?
It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article.
The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time.
It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2.
I don't think it is impossible to determine.
We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level.
But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time).
If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival?
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
the elephant is dead.
Not immediately. The article spoke of something around a month. Why? Because back then people just popped out of nowhere and dominated. The level of play was much lower than it is now. That is why the elephant "theory" did not claim that Kespa players could pull it off in the future. Now that the skill level is significantly higher, it will take them longer. However, we are already seeing them becoming competetive, and that is after only a couple of months, when they aren't even fully dedicated to the game. The elephant is alive and well.
It's already been glaringly obvious that the best BW players, Kespa and non-Kespa, weren't becoming the best SC2 players. This has hold true for War3 as well, Stephano was a semi-pro back then.
Since this premisse was one of the elephant paradigm (ie "bw code A" and particulary flash jaedong bisu dominating the scene right when they switch since most GSL players weren't code A), we can consider the elephant thread entirely irrelevant.
What? 1)Allmost every the top Korean s2 players were former BW pro's 2) The article about the elephant never said the second they switched they would pwn. 3) The fact that 3-4 months in while still having to practice BW Kespa pro's are already taking b03 series off code A level players(Some Code S level players too)is fucking incredible
So in short you're pretty much wrong on every single level. The Elephants are marching along just fine
not really, the younger players that didn't really play bw are rolling most of the players in general in sc2 as they have quicker hands and the better thinking hat, alot of the older kespa players will just drop off, few of the younger bw pro's will do well.#
also domination will never happen in sc2 because their is always a new strat that will knock x dominant player out.
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
the elephant is dead.
Not immediately. The article spoke of something around a month. Why? Because back then people just popped out of nowhere and dominated. The level of play was much lower than it is now. That is why the elephant "theory" did not claim that Kespa players could pull it off in the future. Now that the skill level is significantly higher, it will take them longer. However, we are already seeing them becoming competetive, and that is after only a couple of months, when they aren't even fully dedicated to the game. The elephant is alive and well.
It's already been glaringly obvious that the best BW players, Kespa and non-Kespa, weren't becoming the best SC2 players. This has hold true for War3 as well, Stephano was a semi-pro back then.
Since this premisse was one of the elephant paradigm (ie "bw code A" and particulary flash jaedong bisu dominating the scene right when they switch since most GSL players weren't code A), we can consider the elephant thread entirely irrelevant.
What? 1)Allmost every the top Korean s2 players were former BW pro's 2) The article about the elephant never said the second they switched they would pwn. 3) The fact that 3-4 months in while still having to practice BW Kespa pro's are already taking b03 series off code A level players(Some Code S level players too)is fucking incredible
So in short you're pretty much wrong on every single level. The Elephants are marching along just fine
not really, the younger players that didn't really play bw are rolling most of the players in general in sc2 as they have quicker hands and the better thinking hat, alot of the older kespa players will just drop off, few of the younger bw pro's will do well.#
also domination will never happen in sc2 because their is always a new strat that will knock x dominant player out.
Such a short post, but I don't know where to begin.
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
the elephant is dead.
Not immediately. The article spoke of something around a month. Why? Because back then people just popped out of nowhere and dominated. The level of play was much lower than it is now. That is why the elephant "theory" did not claim that Kespa players could pull it off in the future. Now that the skill level is significantly higher, it will take them longer. However, we are already seeing them becoming competetive, and that is after only a couple of months, when they aren't even fully dedicated to the game. The elephant is alive and well.
It's already been glaringly obvious that the best BW players, Kespa and non-Kespa, weren't becoming the best SC2 players. This has hold true for War3 as well, Stephano was a semi-pro back then.
Since this premisse was one of the elephant paradigm (ie "bw code A" and particulary flash jaedong bisu dominating the scene right when they switch since most GSL players weren't code A), we can consider the elephant thread entirely irrelevant.
What? 1)Allmost every the top Korean s2 players were former BW pro's 2) The article about the elephant never said the second they switched they would pwn. 3) The fact that 3-4 months in while still having to practice BW Kespa pro's are already taking b03 series off code A level players(Some Code S level players too)is fucking incredible
So in short you're pretty much wrong on every single level. The Elephants are marching along just fine
not really, the younger players that didn't really play bw are rolling most of the players in general in sc2 as they have quicker hands and the better thinking hat, alot of the older kespa players will just drop off, few of the younger bw pro's will do well.#
also domination will never happen in sc2 because their is always a new strat that will knock x dominant player out.
The younger players who didn't play BW are rolling the old BW pro's eh? So those youngins are the ones that are winning 99% of all GSL titles? Oh wait.... Nestea, MVP, MC, MMA, MKP, -Insert Top Sc2 player here-. all come from BW. Your entire post is invalid.
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” "
Hot_Bid's quote?
It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article.
The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time.
It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2.
I don't think it is impossible to determine.
We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level.
But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time).
If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival?
The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone)
I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago.
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” "
Hot_Bid's quote?
It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article.
The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time.
It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2.
I don't think it is impossible to determine.
We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level.
But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time).
If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival?
The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone)
I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago.
But no one has claimed that the scene is a farce now and I see you arguing against that. Not so much against that it was a farce back then. Since the competition is not a farce now, to be this good that fast is nothing but impressive.
I also have to point out that Flash, I dare say, according to most is one of the better Kespa players. And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player. Considering the limited amount of Kespa-GSL matches, it seems like many to me. Moreover, "convincingly" is nothing but a weasel word.
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” "
Hot_Bid's quote?
It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article.
The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time.
It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2.
I don't think it is impossible to determine.
We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level.
But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time).
If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival?
The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone)
I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago.
But no one has claimed that the scene is a farce now and I see you arguing against that. Not so much against that it was a farce back then. Since the competition is not a farce now, to be this good that fast is nothing but impressive.
I also have to point out that Flash, I dare say, according to most is one of the better Kespa players. And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player. Considering the limited amount of Kespa-GSL matches, it seems like many to me. Moreover, "convincingly" is nothing but a weasel word.
convincingly = not PvP and not a game like Reality vs Symbol where Symbol played super awful. And if many of the same players are at the top both now and 12 months ago, how can it have been a farce back then when it isn't now according to you?
Soulkey haven't achieved much since the KesPA players agreed that he is the best in SC2 among them. I think he just had really bad luck: MMA then Taeja...what is he supposed to do lol
On July 30 2012 04:34 Ritchie wrote: Soulkey haven't achieved much since the KesPA players agreed that he is the best in SC2 among them. I think he just had really bad luck: MMA then Taeja...what is he supposed to do lol
Even in proleague he hasn't done that great though. I would say effort is better
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” "
Hot_Bid's quote?
It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article.
The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time.
It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2.
I don't think it is impossible to determine.
We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level.
But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time).
If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival?
The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone)
I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago.
But no one has claimed that the scene is a farce now and I see you arguing against that. Not so much against that it was a farce back then. Since the competition is not a farce now, to be this good that fast is nothing but impressive.
I also have to point out that Flash, I dare say, according to most is one of the better Kespa players. And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player. Considering the limited amount of Kespa-GSL matches, it seems like many to me. Moreover, "convincingly" is nothing but a weasel word.
convincingly = not PvP and not a game like Reality vs Symbol where Symbol played super awful. And if many of the same players are at the top both now and 12 months ago, how can it have been a farce back then when it isn't now according to you?
So your explanation is that out of all the games that Kespa players won, it was either the GSL players playing poorly or PvP? There are probably at least 20 Kespa players that have defeated GSL players. So the amount of matches is measured in the dozens.
Interesting disparity here too: The 20 or so Kespa players count to you as few. But the 7 GSL players that were in Code S in May and who are in Code S now count as many.
Weasel words.
Because they started playing better. The skill level rose signficantly. New players joined in.
On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote: Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time.
agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead......
So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so.
the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ?
the elephant is dead.
Not immediately. The article spoke of something around a month. Why? Because back then people just popped out of nowhere and dominated. The level of play was much lower than it is now. That is why the elephant "theory" did not claim that Kespa players could pull it off in the future. Now that the skill level is significantly higher, it will take them longer. However, we are already seeing them becoming competetive, and that is after only a couple of months, when they aren't even fully dedicated to the game. The elephant is alive and well.
It's already been glaringly obvious that the best BW players, Kespa and non-Kespa, weren't becoming the best SC2 players. This has hold true for War3 as well, Stephano was a semi-pro back then.
Since this premisse was one of the elephant paradigm (ie "bw code A" and particulary flash jaedong bisu dominating the scene right when they switch since most GSL players weren't code A), we can consider the elephant thread entirely irrelevant.
What? 1)Allmost every the top Korean s2 players were former BW pro's 2) The article about the elephant never said the second they switched they would pwn. 3) The fact that 3-4 months in while still having to practice BW Kespa pro's are already taking b03 series off code A level players(Some Code S level players too)is fucking incredible
So in short you're pretty much wrong on every single level. The Elephants are marching along just fine
not really, the younger players that didn't really play bw are rolling most of the players in general in sc2 as they have quicker hands and the better thinking hat, alot of the older kespa players will just drop off, few of the younger bw pro's will do well.#
also domination will never happen in sc2 because their is always a new strat that will knock x dominant player out.
Take out patching and expansions and we would see stagnation happen quite quickly in SC2. The game doesn't have the strategic depth of something like chess or go where there are hundreds of possible variations and outcomes that all can work.
Those rising pros were all amateur BW players who likely would have made the transition to professional BW had SC2 not came out. Leerock, Jjakji and DRG are just a few to name. Players like Nestea have shown in SC2 one can be older and still have sucess so I'm not worried for Flash and Jaedong and other top players who are barely over 20.
so as few as 4 or as many as 6 kespa players are going to get through to the semis? At this rate, I hope the kespa players don't get too discouraged by these results and start thinking about quitting altogether.
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” "
Hot_Bid's quote?
It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article.
The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time.
It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2.
I don't think it is impossible to determine.
We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level.
But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time).
If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival?
The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone)
I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago.
But no one has claimed that the scene is a farce now and I see you arguing against that. Not so much against that it was a farce back then. Since the competition is not a farce now, to be this good that fast is nothing but impressive.
I also have to point out that Flash, I dare say, according to most is one of the better Kespa players. And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player. Considering the limited amount of Kespa-GSL matches, it seems like many to me. Moreover, "convincingly" is nothing but a weasel word.
convincingly = not PvP and not a game like Reality vs Symbol where Symbol played super awful. And if many of the same players are at the top both now and 12 months ago, how can it have been a farce back then when it isn't now according to you?
So your explanation is that out of all the games that Kespa players won, it was either the GSL players playing poorly or PvP? There are probably at least 20 Kespa players that have defeated GSL players. So the amount of matches is measured in the dozens.
Interesting disparity here too: The 20 or so Kespa players count to you as few. But the 7 GSL players that were in Code S in May and who are in Code S now count as many.
Weasel words.
Because they started playing better. The skill level rose signficantly. New players joined in.
The number of logical fallacies in your post is quite astounding.
"Out of all the games..." Would you mind posting the exact official Kespa win ratio against GSL code A and code S players ?
That would be the first step for a logical and healthy discussion. For your own info, finale is not part of code A.
On July 30 2012 06:17 amazingoopah wrote: so as few as 4 or as many as 6 kespa players are going to get through to the semis? At this rate, I hope the kespa players don't get too discouraged by these results and start thinking about quitting altogether.
?? Considering before these events Soulkey said it would be an embarrassment if any of the GSL players lost a series to them... I think KespA players are quite happy with the results.
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” "
Hot_Bid's quote?
It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article.
The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time.
It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2.
I don't think it is impossible to determine.
We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level.
But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time).
If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival?
The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone)
I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago.
But no one has claimed that the scene is a farce now and I see you arguing against that. Not so much against that it was a farce back then. Since the competition is not a farce now, to be this good that fast is nothing but impressive.
I also have to point out that Flash, I dare say, according to most is one of the better Kespa players. And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player. Considering the limited amount of Kespa-GSL matches, it seems like many to me. Moreover, "convincingly" is nothing but a weasel word.
convincingly = not PvP and not a game like Reality vs Symbol where Symbol played super awful. And if many of the same players are at the top both now and 12 months ago, how can it have been a farce back then when it isn't now according to you?
So your explanation is that out of all the games that Kespa players won, it was either the GSL players playing poorly or PvP? There are probably at least 20 Kespa players that have defeated GSL players. So the amount of matches is measured in the dozens.
Interesting disparity here too: The 20 or so Kespa players count to you as few. But the 7 GSL players that were in Code S in May and who are in Code S now count as many.
Weasel words.
Because they started playing better. The skill level rose signficantly. New players joined in.
The number of logical fallacies in your post is quite astounding.
"Out of all the games..." Would you mind posting the exact official Kespa win ratio against GSL code A and code S players ?
That would be the first step for a logical and healthy discussion. For your own info, finale is not part of code A.
By all means, point out even one logical fallacy there. Please.
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” "
Hot_Bid's quote?
It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article.
The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time.
It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2.
I don't think it is impossible to determine.
We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level.
But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time).
If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival?
The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone)
I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago.
But no one has claimed that the scene is a farce now and I see you arguing against that. Not so much against that it was a farce back then. Since the competition is not a farce now, to be this good that fast is nothing but impressive.
I also have to point out that Flash, I dare say, according to most is one of the better Kespa players. And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player. Considering the limited amount of Kespa-GSL matches, it seems like many to me. Moreover, "convincingly" is nothing but a weasel word.
convincingly = not PvP and not a game like Reality vs Symbol where Symbol played super awful. And if many of the same players are at the top both now and 12 months ago, how can it have been a farce back then when it isn't now according to you?
So your explanation is that out of all the games that Kespa players won, it was either the GSL players playing poorly or PvP? There are probably at least 20 Kespa players that have defeated GSL players. So the amount of matches is measured in the dozens.
Interesting disparity here too: The 20 or so Kespa players count to you as few. But the 7 GSL players that were in Code S in May and who are in Code S now count as many.
Weasel words.
Because they started playing better. The skill level rose signficantly. New players joined in.
Writing weasel words like that makes it seem like you think a significant amount of KeSPA players are competitive with GSL players (unless you're just trying to be annoying), when in fact they're not - which is beyond dispute I hope. Taking the occasional series in volatile match-ups or against people have bad days says nothing, you can use the same logic to argue that foreigners are competitive with Koreans.
The elephant thread said that the competition is a farce because bad BW players were winning and that a lot of the KeSPA pros could just dominate if they wanted to. Yet a significant amount of the best players currently were already very strong back then and were in fact held up as examples of bad players, including players like Nestea and MC. Obviously Code S now isn't equal to Code S one year ago, but there's still significant overlap. I could name many more players that were already good at SC2 back then, like alive, squirtle, dongraegu, mma, leenock, jjakji, puzzle, curious, puma, mvp, marineking etc.
I have no doubt that there will be a significant number of kespa pros among the top sc2 players within 6 months or so, but that was always going to happen and was never enough to prove the elephant thread correct. (I'm still waiting for bisu to win his first sc2 game)
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” "
Hot_Bid's quote?
It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article.
The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time.
It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2.
I don't think it is impossible to determine.
We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level.
But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time).
If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival?
The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone)
I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago.
But no one has claimed that the scene is a farce now and I see you arguing against that. Not so much against that it was a farce back then. Since the competition is not a farce now, to be this good that fast is nothing but impressive.
I also have to point out that Flash, I dare say, according to most is one of the better Kespa players. And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player. Considering the limited amount of Kespa-GSL matches, it seems like many to me. Moreover, "convincingly" is nothing but a weasel word.
convincingly = not PvP and not a game like Reality vs Symbol where Symbol played super awful. And if many of the same players are at the top both now and 12 months ago, how can it have been a farce back then when it isn't now according to you?
So your explanation is that out of all the games that Kespa players won, it was either the GSL players playing poorly or PvP? There are probably at least 20 Kespa players that have defeated GSL players. So the amount of matches is measured in the dozens.
Interesting disparity here too: The 20 or so Kespa players count to you as few. But the 7 GSL players that were in Code S in May and who are in Code S now count as many.
Weasel words.
Because they started playing better. The skill level rose signficantly. New players joined in.
Writing weasel words like that makes it seem like you think a significant amount of KeSPA players are competitive with GSL players (unless you're just trying to be annoying), when in fact they're not - which is beyond dispute I hope. Taking the occasional series in volatile match-ups or against people have bad days says nothing, you can use the same logic to argue that foreigners are competitive with Koreans.
The elephant thread said that the competition is a farce because bad BW players were winning and that a lot of the KeSPA pros could just dominate if they wanted to. Yet a significant amount of the best players currently were already very strong back then and were in fact held up as examples of bad players, including players like Nestea and MC. Obviously Code S now isn't equal to Code S one year ago, but there's still significant overlap. I could name many more players that were already good at SC2 back then, like alive, squirtle, dongraegu, mma, leenock, jjakji, puzzle, curious, puma, mvp, marineking etc.
I have no doubt that there will be a significant number of kespa pros among the top sc2 players within 6 months or so, but that was always going to happen and was never enough to prove the elephant thread correct. (I'm still waiting for bisu to win his first sc2 game)
I gave you the concrete number of 20 Kespa players who have beaten GSL players. The amount of games is of course larger than 20. You are saying all these cases were either PvP or the GSL player having a bad day. That's all I'm saying.
In May, Jinro for example was Code S. Or Lyn. And I guarantee you if the latter tried again, he wouldn't make it. It's because there is a significant difference in skill. This is why people say that back then a switch would have resulted in swift domination by Kespa. Although, if the switch had happened two or three months prior to the article, the switch would have been even easier. It was after the article that player such as Dongraegu began to be noticed. Anyway, the point of the Elephant was no specific time window during which Kespa has to dominate. The point was that they are the best and they were not playing.
What does significant mean here? You should be less vague. Sometimes few is 20 to you and many is 7. It makes it quite difficult to follow what exactly you mean.
I have to say, all these qualifiers are confusing me - OSL, WCS, and now WCG -_-
I was trying to find the results of this qualifier without going to the thread for the link, and ended up looking at the WCS qualifier pages - cue much confusion.
The elephant article was a terrible article based on terrible assumptions with so many "IF's" that it's created such a huge divide between the TL community.
I want Kespa players to do well not because I have this misplaced competitive urge to see GSL players lose. I want more players in the scene to grow Esports in general. And it's a damn shame that article was written because it created such terrible fanboyism on either side. Ugh.
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” "
Hot_Bid's quote?
It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article.
The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time.
It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2.
I don't think it is impossible to determine.
We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level.
But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time).
If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival?
The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone)
I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago.
But no one has claimed that the scene is a farce now and I see you arguing against that. Not so much against that it was a farce back then. Since the competition is not a farce now, to be this good that fast is nothing but impressive.
I also have to point out that Flash, I dare say, according to most is one of the better Kespa players. And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player. Considering the limited amount of Kespa-GSL matches, it seems like many to me. Moreover, "convincingly" is nothing but a weasel word.
convincingly = not PvP and not a game like Reality vs Symbol where Symbol played super awful. And if many of the same players are at the top both now and 12 months ago, how can it have been a farce back then when it isn't now according to you?
So your explanation is that out of all the games that Kespa players won, it was either the GSL players playing poorly or PvP? There are probably at least 20 Kespa players that have defeated GSL players. So the amount of matches is measured in the dozens.
Interesting disparity here too: The 20 or so Kespa players count to you as few. But the 7 GSL players that were in Code S in May and who are in Code S now count as many.
Weasel words.
Because they started playing better. The skill level rose signficantly. New players joined in.
Writing weasel words like that makes it seem like you think a significant amount of KeSPA players are competitive with GSL players (unless you're just trying to be annoying), when in fact they're not - which is beyond dispute I hope. Taking the occasional series in volatile match-ups or against people have bad days says nothing, you can use the same logic to argue that foreigners are competitive with Koreans.
The elephant thread said that the competition is a farce because bad BW players were winning and that a lot of the KeSPA pros could just dominate if they wanted to. Yet a significant amount of the best players currently were already very strong back then and were in fact held up as examples of bad players, including players like Nestea and MC. Obviously Code S now isn't equal to Code S one year ago, but there's still significant overlap. I could name many more players that were already good at SC2 back then, like alive, squirtle, dongraegu, mma, leenock, jjakji, puzzle, curious, puma, mvp, marineking etc.
I have no doubt that there will be a significant number of kespa pros among the top sc2 players within 6 months or so, but that was always going to happen and was never enough to prove the elephant thread correct. (I'm still waiting for bisu to win his first sc2 game)
I gave you the concrete number of 20 Kespa players who have beaten GSL players.
On July 30 2012 02:50 Squeegy wrote: And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player.
He asked you to go get the actual number, not continue using your randomly surmised number of 20 as if it were a statistically researched fact. He even asked you to perhaps go a step further and find the number of wins over Code A/S players, which means that Baby's win over finale would not count(but Paralyze>Vampire would).
I don't even care to side in the argument, but seeing such intellectual laziness in an attempt to win your argument is so blah.
It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article.
The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time.
It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2.
I don't think it is impossible to determine.
We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level.
But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time).
If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival?
The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone)
I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago.
But no one has claimed that the scene is a farce now and I see you arguing against that. Not so much against that it was a farce back then. Since the competition is not a farce now, to be this good that fast is nothing but impressive.
I also have to point out that Flash, I dare say, according to most is one of the better Kespa players. And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player. Considering the limited amount of Kespa-GSL matches, it seems like many to me. Moreover, "convincingly" is nothing but a weasel word.
convincingly = not PvP and not a game like Reality vs Symbol where Symbol played super awful. And if many of the same players are at the top both now and 12 months ago, how can it have been a farce back then when it isn't now according to you?
So your explanation is that out of all the games that Kespa players won, it was either the GSL players playing poorly or PvP? There are probably at least 20 Kespa players that have defeated GSL players. So the amount of matches is measured in the dozens.
Interesting disparity here too: The 20 or so Kespa players count to you as few. But the 7 GSL players that were in Code S in May and who are in Code S now count as many.
Weasel words.
Because they started playing better. The skill level rose signficantly. New players joined in.
Writing weasel words like that makes it seem like you think a significant amount of KeSPA players are competitive with GSL players (unless you're just trying to be annoying), when in fact they're not - which is beyond dispute I hope. Taking the occasional series in volatile match-ups or against people have bad days says nothing, you can use the same logic to argue that foreigners are competitive with Koreans.
The elephant thread said that the competition is a farce because bad BW players were winning and that a lot of the KeSPA pros could just dominate if they wanted to. Yet a significant amount of the best players currently were already very strong back then and were in fact held up as examples of bad players, including players like Nestea and MC. Obviously Code S now isn't equal to Code S one year ago, but there's still significant overlap. I could name many more players that were already good at SC2 back then, like alive, squirtle, dongraegu, mma, leenock, jjakji, puzzle, curious, puma, mvp, marineking etc.
I have no doubt that there will be a significant number of kespa pros among the top sc2 players within 6 months or so, but that was always going to happen and was never enough to prove the elephant thread correct. (I'm still waiting for bisu to win his first sc2 game)
I gave you the concrete number of 20 Kespa players who have beaten GSL players.
On July 30 2012 02:50 Squeegy wrote: And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player.
He asked you to go get the actual number, not continue using your randomly surmised number of 20 as if it were a statistically researched fact. He even asked you to perhaps go a step further and find the number of wins over Code A/S players, which means that Baby's win over finale would not count(but Paralyze>Vampire would).
I don't even care to side in the argument, but seeing such intellectual laziness in an attempt to win your argument is so blah.
But it is a statistically researched fact. I checked. And I wasn't even very thorough, so the number could be higher. Why don't you go do what he asked for, that way you could be useful to someone. Or you could just be quiet and learn.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uonVh.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3dBHR.png)
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MVP.Monster vs. 
SlayerS`Genius
T8_BaBy![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cbVOl.png)
, anyway Jangbi, Baby and Zero will definitely make it 
July isn't a stars coach is he?
![[image loading]](http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu62/Hier00/newmafiazerg2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu62/Hier00/smoothmafiazerg.jpg)
