On July 29 2012 08:41 Saber_Rider wrote: Gotta love that u can win 3 games lose 3 games n still lose the series...extended only makes sense if u face a player who beat u once before...what's up with america n these extended series? Anyways ThorZain is again showing the best foreign terran!
what are you talking about? First of all, this is in sweden not america lol, second that just how a double elimination tournament works, everyone gets an extra life, thorzain still had his so he could afford to drop a series
Well Blizzard is an american based company and I am pretty sure they were at least part of the decision to use these rules...Yepp I kno that is how it works and this final was amazing but it still lame to have a final where u start with such an advantage! U don't see an ordinary sports league do this...why? Cuase it would kinda kill a lot of the hype
You think that ordinary sports don't use double elimination? Wow. Just wow. This wasn't even extended series. If anything, this is an argument FOR extended series.
Which ordinary sports use double elimination?
There might be some obscure ones that do, but it doesn't come even close to being a recognized standard anywhere that actually matters. It's just messy, unelegant, and produces awkward scenarios.
If you want the best players to win and the best games level, chose double elimination, especially in a game with a big variance like sc2. If you want a tv show or more entertainment/excitment outside the actual games, chose single elimination.
As Cloud says, it is to do with duration of games. A player could fly halfway around the world, loss a Bo3 in 25 minutes and be eliminated. Unless you have Round Robin Groups, half the players get eliminated after their first opponent. Having double elimination ensures players have at least several hours (including breaks between rounds) of participating. You can see tournaments are trying out different formats, like the recent MLG Arena that had dual brackets. Personally I think single elimination is better, but SC2 tournaments could adopt a format similar to that used in Rugby Sevens Tournaments where they have a lesser Plate Tournament for all the eliminated players to compete in.
On July 29 2012 08:56 jmbthirteen wrote: Are people really complaining about double elim? You realize, even without double elim, Thorzain would have won because SortOf lost to naniwa earlier in the tournament right? And Thorzain won the winners bracket, which would have been the whole tournament.
That is why I like that better. Instead SortOf goes 3-3 and lose. I know ThorZain won tis extra series by being undefeated but it just isn't the same to watch a final where u know one player has an advantage. I know DE has it's strong points I just prefer the classic way of single elim.
Imo it should be 2 rounds of 4 man groups into Ro8 Single elim.
This seems like an ideal format to me, although RO16 is also fine.
I don't get why we're not just copying OSL. I can't remember a single double elimination tournament in Brood War (although to be fair I missed a lot of smaller foreign ones), it's definitely been single elimination for the vast, vast majority of the history of broadcasted Starcraft.
The only reason we have it in SC2 is because a lot of teams and league organizers were connected to other esports. Honestly if only MLG didn't start off with their "copy Halo format", I don't think we'd be seeing it much in SC2 either, seeing as MLG was pretty much at the forefront of the double elimination camp.
I think double elim makes sense for this since its essentially a qualifier... But I hope in the world championship they do proper groups and a single elim bracket with a 3/4th place match
I think double elimination would be pretty fine if the final was just a straight up Bo7. The losing player already is punished by having to face more opponents; there is no need to start off the final series on uneven footing. : / I feel like this is merely a trick to create suspense for the viewers and a situation in which one player has to fight ALL THE ODDS and OVERCOME THE DIFFICULTIES in order to win. Be fair instead and give both players who have deserved their place in the finals the same chances....
On July 29 2012 08:56 jmbthirteen wrote: Are people really complaining about double elim? You realize, even without double elim, Thorzain would have won because SortOf lost to naniwa earlier in the tournament right? And Thorzain won the winners bracket, which would have been the whole tournament.
That is why I like that better. Instead SortOf goes 3-3 and lose. I know ThorZain won tis extra series by being undefeated but it just isn't the same to watch a final where u know one player has an advantage. I know DE has it's strong points I just prefer the classic way of single elim.
Imo it should be 2 rounds of 4 man groups into Ro8 Single elim.
This seems like an ideal format to me, although RO16 is also fine.
I don't get why we're not just copying OSL. I can't remember a single double elimination tournament in Brood War (although to be fair I missed a lot of smaller foreign ones), it's definitely been single elimination for the vast, vast majority of the history of broadcasted Starcraft.
The only reason we have it in SC2 is because a lot of teams and league organizers were connected to other esports. Honestly if only MLG didn't start off with their "copy Halo format", I don't think we'd be seeing it much in SC2 either, seeing as MLG was pretty much at the forefront of the double elimination camp.
Well, for one thing the conditions of the OSL are completely. Everyone is prepared for maps, there are no open brackets directly attached to the tournament played on the same day, there far less players involved, most SC2 tournaments are played out over 2-3 days rather than 3-4 months. The situations are not really comparable, OSL's Bo1 group stages and single elim would be a bad joke.
And Double Elim has precedence in BW, it was used in WCG (I just looked it up, thanks hifriend, it was used in the qualifiers for WCG, so basically the same as this is for WCG), and actually some old BW tournaments in Korea. For huge open brackets its a complete necessity, single elim would be terrible.
MLG's biggest problem is weird online qualifiers and Extended Series.
On July 29 2012 08:56 jmbthirteen wrote: Are people really complaining about double elim? You realize, even without double elim, Thorzain would have won because SortOf lost to naniwa earlier in the tournament right? And Thorzain won the winners bracket, which would have been the whole tournament.
That is why I like that better. Instead SortOf goes 3-3 and lose. I know ThorZain won tis extra series by being undefeated but it just isn't the same to watch a final where u know one player has an advantage. I know DE has it's strong points I just prefer the classic way of single elim.
Imo it should be 2 rounds of 4 man groups into Ro8 Single elim.
This seems like an ideal format to me, although RO16 is also fine.
I don't get why we're not just copying OSL. I can't remember a single double elimination tournament in Brood War (although to be fair I missed a lot of smaller foreign ones), it's definitely been single elimination for the vast, vast majority of the history of broadcasted Starcraft.
The only reason we have it in SC2 is because a lot of teams and league organizers were connected to other esports. Honestly if only MLG didn't start off with their "copy Halo format", I don't think we'd be seeing it much in SC2 either, seeing as MLG was pretty much at the forefront of the double elimination camp.
Well, for one thing the conditions of the OSL are completely. Everyone is prepared for maps, there are no open brackets directly attached to the tournament played on the same day, there far less players involved, most SC2 tournaments are played out over 2-3 days rather than 3-4 months. The situations are not really comparable, OSL's Bo1 group stages and single elim would be a bad joke.
And Double Elim has precedence in BW, it was used in WCG, and actually some old BW tournaments in Korea. For huge open brackets its a complete necessity, single elim would be terrible.
MLG's biggest problem is weird online qualifiers and Extended Series.
On July 29 2012 05:57 Keidy wrote: SortOf played good but that was Nani losing more then anything.
It was just awefull to watch. It was low master display with errors bronzplayers do.
ps. And to you Stephano fanboys, who is he playing in the TSL again? Even the best falls when they not 110% commited.
Well, Stephano didn't recieve a seed and wasn't interested about TSL since he only played two qualifiers(one of which he forfeited after getting to top16)...good try though
And when he did play he lost to Cytoplasm.
My point is, one defeat dont mean Nani is pure shit.
ps. And regarding jet-lag excuses, Nani have been in Sweden for like a week, and its not that bad when you travell from Korea to Sweden (wors going the other way). Nani was simply playing terrible making misstakes that platinum players do
You do know that jet lag is different for everyone, right? For example, MC is a beast all the time, regardless of jet lag... but Nani's and sase's jet lags apparently last over a week since they lost to some random player... oh and thorzain was jet lagged as well because he dropped a set to this sortof kid.
i wonder, what do people get from discussing how good players really is, its so fucking pointless watch this guy instead, he cant even fkn play starcraft but he doesnt give a fuck http://sv.twitch.tv/dreamhacktv/b/326537522?t=8h15m50s
On July 29 2012 09:12 Zackeva wrote: I think double elimination would be pretty fine if the final was just a straight up Bo7. The losing player already is punished by having to face more opponents; there is no need to start off the final series on uneven footing. : / I feel like this is merely a trick to create suspense for the viewers and a situation in which one player has to fight ALL THE ODDS and OVERCOME THE DIFFICULTIES in order to win. Be fair instead and give both players who have deserved their place in the finals the same chances....
Why should everyone except the upper bracket winner be able to drop one series before being eliminated? It's called double-elimination for a reason, that everyone, including the upper bracket winner, is able to drop one series before being eliminated
On July 29 2012 09:12 Zackeva wrote: I think double elimination would be pretty fine if the final was just a straight up Bo7. The losing player already is punished by having to face more opponents; there is no need to start off the final series on uneven footing. : / I feel like this is merely a trick to create suspense for the viewers and a situation in which one player has to fight ALL THE ODDS and OVERCOME THE DIFFICULTIES in order to win. Be fair instead and give both players who have deserved their place in the finals the same chances....
Why should everyone except the upper bracket winner be able to drop one series before being eliminated? It's called double-elimination for a reason, that everyone, including the upper bracket winner, is able to drop one series before being eliminated
I have nothing against the format, it's perfectly reasonable and fair for the upper bracket winner to have one more chance if he loses the first final. It's just a bit unnatural to see the final result being 3:3 or even 2:3 in the case of Naama and Elfi.
On July 29 2012 09:12 Zackeva wrote: I think double elimination would be pretty fine if the final was just a straight up Bo7. The losing player already is punished by having to face more opponents; there is no need to start off the final series on uneven footing. : / I feel like this is merely a trick to create suspense for the viewers and a situation in which one player has to fight ALL THE ODDS and OVERCOME THE DIFFICULTIES in order to win. Be fair instead and give both players who have deserved their place in the finals the same chances....
Why should everyone except the upper bracket winner be able to drop one series before being eliminated? It's called double-elimination for a reason, that everyone, including the upper bracket winner, is able to drop one series before being eliminated
Like I said, that extra life would be traded for having to play less opponents. The fewer opponents you face, the lesser chance of you dropping out anyways. Every player would still have an extra life, but if it isn't used up it should be erased in the finals in favor of fairness. : )
EPT
