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On July 22 2012 11:41 Moka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 11:32 mordk wrote:On July 22 2012 11:30 Whatson wrote:On July 22 2012 11:26 Zacsafus wrote:On July 22 2012 11:22 yeint wrote:On July 22 2012 11:17 the`postman wrote:On July 22 2012 11:15 yeint wrote:On July 22 2012 11:09 the`postman wrote:On July 22 2012 11:06 yeint wrote:On July 22 2012 11:06 the`postman wrote:
[quote]
Just because you as a viewer, who doesn't understand zerg, doesn't find it impressive doesn't mean that it isn't. It's a spectator sport though. So? if you are sophisticated watcher you can appreciate it, if not you don't. I honestly don't see where this conversation is going, zerg need to be nerfed because injects aren't fun to watch for people who don't understand the game? I didn't say I didn't understand the importance of spot on injects, I'm saying it doesn't make the games better to watch. It's like saying boxing is made more impressive because I know the boxers are really good at skipping a rope. It's not even remotely like that, it would be like someone who understands how important footwork is in boxing, not just watching for big ass haymaker. The problem with injects is that they're technically very simple to excel at. You just have to hit V every 40 seconds on the dot. Now, this isn't easy by any means, but once someone perfects it, it's the same every game. Battle micro is far more dynamic and changes from game to game. Exactly this, zerg seems to have no flash or pazzaz to their engagements aside from the occasional ling surround or magic box, but they arent hard in itself, roaches need some sort of blink equivalent, would make games with zerg in infintely more fun to watch, imagine roach vs stalker blink wars xD Once again. Somebody doesn't play Zerg. Try hitting injects, spreading creep, moving your ling-baneling army around the map, while making sure your mutas don't derp off and go attack a group of marines, and then tell me how easy Zerg is to play. He's not saying zerg isn't hard to play, he's saying they don't have that many watcher-friendly micro tricks and such things like protoss and terran do, which is just how the race works. Keeping up with injects is an amazing feat, but nobody says "WOW LOOK AT THAT INJECT!!" like they say "OMFG DAT MARINE SPLIT!!" It's amazing, yet unspectacular. Maybe bring back some form of BW muta micro, seeing marines picked apart was pretty cool + Show Spoiler +
DB said the only reason that Muta Micro doesn't exist anymore was because of unlimited unit selection(Which would make Mutalisks very OP), which they refuse to limit.
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On July 22 2012 12:12 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 12:09 Dosey wrote:On July 22 2012 11:58 HolyArrow wrote:On July 22 2012 11:31 Dosey wrote:On July 22 2012 11:26 HolyArrow wrote:On July 22 2012 11:24 Dosey wrote:On July 22 2012 11:22 vthree wrote:
Teamkill tomorrow between First and Losira... First just owning terrans left and right 8-1 vs TOP, PuMa, Ganzi, aLive. Sadly, he got 2-0d by a Euro zerg... Doesn't bode well for him vs Losira, unless jetlag played a role somehow. He 2-0'd Coca recently in an online cup, if that means anything to you. No.. it doesn't. Don't know why people bring up past results to try and justify something. "Stephano sucks vs zerg, especially Nerchio! He is doomed!" Stephano wins "MC has a winning record vs Stephano and is the best PvZer, he'll crush Stephano and win NASL!" Stephano wins NASL "MC has been losing to zergs non stop lately, he doesn't stand a chance vs DRG!" MC wins 3-0 etc etc. Lol the only results that exist are past results. So what do you suggest people do to justify things if past results don't matter? Current results like the one I stated before you made your (seemingly sarcastic) remark about coca. Technically all current results are in the past. What do you define as current? Also, whatever your definition is, First 2-0ing Coca was yesterday according to Liquipedia. I also didn't intend any sarcasm in my remark.
Current as in this current tournament. Online cups are totally different from a LAN atmosphere. Maps are different, environment, playing conditions, player condition, etc... all come into play.
So a comment like
"He lost to a mid-teir foreigner and 2-1d another, so I believe he will struggle vs a Code A Korean like Losira, who was undefeated until playing a top 2 TvZer in the same tournament"
Will probably hold more water than
"He beat Coca in an online cup the other day, so he wont struggle vs Losira!"
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On July 22 2012 12:26 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 12:12 HolyArrow wrote:On July 22 2012 12:09 Dosey wrote:On July 22 2012 11:58 HolyArrow wrote:On July 22 2012 11:31 Dosey wrote:On July 22 2012 11:26 HolyArrow wrote:On July 22 2012 11:24 Dosey wrote:On July 22 2012 11:22 vthree wrote:
Teamkill tomorrow between First and Losira... First just owning terrans left and right 8-1 vs TOP, PuMa, Ganzi, aLive. Sadly, he got 2-0d by a Euro zerg... Doesn't bode well for him vs Losira, unless jetlag played a role somehow. He 2-0'd Coca recently in an online cup, if that means anything to you. No.. it doesn't. Don't know why people bring up past results to try and justify something. "Stephano sucks vs zerg, especially Nerchio! He is doomed!" Stephano wins "MC has a winning record vs Stephano and is the best PvZer, he'll crush Stephano and win NASL!" Stephano wins NASL "MC has been losing to zergs non stop lately, he doesn't stand a chance vs DRG!" MC wins 3-0 etc etc. Lol the only results that exist are past results. So what do you suggest people do to justify things if past results don't matter? Current results like the one I stated before you made your (seemingly sarcastic) remark about coca. Technically all current results are in the past. What do you define as current? Also, whatever your definition is, First 2-0ing Coca was yesterday according to Liquipedia. I also didn't intend any sarcasm in my remark. Current as in this current tournament. Online cups are totally different from a LAN atmosphere. Maps are different, environment, playing conditions, player condition, etc... all come into play. So a comment like "He lost to a mid-teir foreigner and 2-1d another, so I believe he will struggle vs a Code A Korean like Losira, who was undefeated until playing a top 2 TvZer in the same tournament" Will probably hold more water than "He beat Coca in an online cup the other day, so he wont struggle vs Losira!"
Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. I just don't think that means that past results are completely meaningless. People sometimes screw up early on in a tournament and suddenly turn on their A-game, too. Past results are merely convenient ways of discussing who is most likely to win a match. First 2-0ing CoCa doesn't mean too much, but it at least indicates that his PvZ is potentially pretty good, just depends if he can get is act together for tomorrow.
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Man, it'll be crazy if Stephano and Alicia meet each other again only one week after NASL.
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On July 22 2012 12:18 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 11:41 Moka wrote:On July 22 2012 11:32 mordk wrote:On July 22 2012 11:30 Whatson wrote:On July 22 2012 11:26 Zacsafus wrote:On July 22 2012 11:22 yeint wrote:On July 22 2012 11:17 the`postman wrote:On July 22 2012 11:15 yeint wrote:On July 22 2012 11:09 the`postman wrote:On July 22 2012 11:06 yeint wrote:
[quote]
It's a spectator sport though. So? if you are sophisticated watcher you can appreciate it, if not you don't. I honestly don't see where this conversation is going, zerg need to be nerfed because injects aren't fun to watch for people who don't understand the game? I didn't say I didn't understand the importance of spot on injects, I'm saying it doesn't make the games better to watch. It's like saying boxing is made more impressive because I know the boxers are really good at skipping a rope. It's not even remotely like that, it would be like someone who understands how important footwork is in boxing, not just watching for big ass haymaker. The problem with injects is that they're technically very simple to excel at. You just have to hit V every 40 seconds on the dot. Now, this isn't easy by any means, but once someone perfects it, it's the same every game. Battle micro is far more dynamic and changes from game to game. Exactly this, zerg seems to have no flash or pazzaz to their engagements aside from the occasional ling surround or magic box, but they arent hard in itself, roaches need some sort of blink equivalent, would make games with zerg in infintely more fun to watch, imagine roach vs stalker blink wars xD Once again. Somebody doesn't play Zerg. Try hitting injects, spreading creep, moving your ling-baneling army around the map, while making sure your mutas don't derp off and go attack a group of marines, and then tell me how easy Zerg is to play. He's not saying zerg isn't hard to play, he's saying they don't have that many watcher-friendly micro tricks and such things like protoss and terran do, which is just how the race works. Keeping up with injects is an amazing feat, but nobody says "WOW LOOK AT THAT INJECT!!" like they say "OMFG DAT MARINE SPLIT!!" It's amazing, yet unspectacular. Maybe bring back some form of BW muta micro, seeing marines picked apart was pretty cool + Show Spoiler + DB said the only reason that Muta Micro doesn't exist anymore was because of unlimited unit selection(Which would make Mutalisks very OP), which they refuse to limit.
I think the game engine had the problem of stacking. Terran can deal with mass muta ball, just that toss doesn't have corsairs and archon splash is weaker.
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On July 22 2012 12:26 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 12:12 HolyArrow wrote:On July 22 2012 12:09 Dosey wrote:On July 22 2012 11:58 HolyArrow wrote:On July 22 2012 11:31 Dosey wrote:On July 22 2012 11:26 HolyArrow wrote:On July 22 2012 11:24 Dosey wrote:On July 22 2012 11:22 vthree wrote:
Teamkill tomorrow between First and Losira... First just owning terrans left and right 8-1 vs TOP, PuMa, Ganzi, aLive. Sadly, he got 2-0d by a Euro zerg... Doesn't bode well for him vs Losira, unless jetlag played a role somehow. He 2-0'd Coca recently in an online cup, if that means anything to you. No.. it doesn't. Don't know why people bring up past results to try and justify something. "Stephano sucks vs zerg, especially Nerchio! He is doomed!" Stephano wins "MC has a winning record vs Stephano and is the best PvZer, he'll crush Stephano and win NASL!" Stephano wins NASL "MC has been losing to zergs non stop lately, he doesn't stand a chance vs DRG!" MC wins 3-0 etc etc. Lol the only results that exist are past results. So what do you suggest people do to justify things if past results don't matter? Current results like the one I stated before you made your (seemingly sarcastic) remark about coca. Technically all current results are in the past. What do you define as current? Also, whatever your definition is, First 2-0ing Coca was yesterday according to Liquipedia. I also didn't intend any sarcasm in my remark. Current as in this current tournament. Online cups are totally different from a LAN atmosphere. Maps are different, environment, playing conditions, player condition, etc... all come into play. So a comment like "He lost to a mid-teir foreigner and 2-1d another, so I believe he will struggle vs a Code A Korean like Losira, who was undefeated until playing a top 2 TvZer in the same tournament" Will probably hold more water than "He beat Coca in an online cup the other day, so he wont struggle vs Losira!"
You never know who is hacking at "online" tournaments. I never count an online tournament worth anything.
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On July 22 2012 12:18 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 11:41 Moka wrote:On July 22 2012 11:32 mordk wrote:On July 22 2012 11:30 Whatson wrote:On July 22 2012 11:26 Zacsafus wrote:On July 22 2012 11:22 yeint wrote:On July 22 2012 11:17 the`postman wrote:On July 22 2012 11:15 yeint wrote:On July 22 2012 11:09 the`postman wrote:On July 22 2012 11:06 yeint wrote:
[quote]
It's a spectator sport though. So? if you are sophisticated watcher you can appreciate it, if not you don't. I honestly don't see where this conversation is going, zerg need to be nerfed because injects aren't fun to watch for people who don't understand the game? I didn't say I didn't understand the importance of spot on injects, I'm saying it doesn't make the games better to watch. It's like saying boxing is made more impressive because I know the boxers are really good at skipping a rope. It's not even remotely like that, it would be like someone who understands how important footwork is in boxing, not just watching for big ass haymaker. The problem with injects is that they're technically very simple to excel at. You just have to hit V every 40 seconds on the dot. Now, this isn't easy by any means, but once someone perfects it, it's the same every game. Battle micro is far more dynamic and changes from game to game. Exactly this, zerg seems to have no flash or pazzaz to their engagements aside from the occasional ling surround or magic box, but they arent hard in itself, roaches need some sort of blink equivalent, would make games with zerg in infintely more fun to watch, imagine roach vs stalker blink wars xD Once again. Somebody doesn't play Zerg. Try hitting injects, spreading creep, moving your ling-baneling army around the map, while making sure your mutas don't derp off and go attack a group of marines, and then tell me how easy Zerg is to play. He's not saying zerg isn't hard to play, he's saying they don't have that many watcher-friendly micro tricks and such things like protoss and terran do, which is just how the race works. Keeping up with injects is an amazing feat, but nobody says "WOW LOOK AT THAT INJECT!!" like they say "OMFG DAT MARINE SPLIT!!" It's amazing, yet unspectacular. Maybe bring back some form of BW muta micro, seeing marines picked apart was pretty cool + Show Spoiler + DB said the only reason that Muta Micro doesn't exist anymore was because of unlimited unit selection(Which would make Mutalisks very OP), which they refuse to limit.
That's silly, for the same reason such a statement would be ridiculous about BW.
Why? Because the more stuff you clump up, the more risk of splash damage you have. What would a single thor volley or storm do to a tight ball of 30 mutas? It would almost singlehandedly lose the game!
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On July 22 2012 13:20 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 12:18 GinDo wrote:On July 22 2012 11:41 Moka wrote:On July 22 2012 11:32 mordk wrote:On July 22 2012 11:30 Whatson wrote:On July 22 2012 11:26 Zacsafus wrote:On July 22 2012 11:22 yeint wrote:On July 22 2012 11:17 the`postman wrote:On July 22 2012 11:15 yeint wrote:On July 22 2012 11:09 the`postman wrote:
[quote]
So? if you are sophisticated watcher you can appreciate it, if not you don't. I honestly don't see where this conversation is going, zerg need to be nerfed because injects aren't fun to watch for people who don't understand the game?
I didn't say I didn't understand the importance of spot on injects, I'm saying it doesn't make the games better to watch. It's like saying boxing is made more impressive because I know the boxers are really good at skipping a rope. It's not even remotely like that, it would be like someone who understands how important footwork is in boxing, not just watching for big ass haymaker. The problem with injects is that they're technically very simple to excel at. You just have to hit V every 40 seconds on the dot. Now, this isn't easy by any means, but once someone perfects it, it's the same every game. Battle micro is far more dynamic and changes from game to game. Exactly this, zerg seems to have no flash or pazzaz to their engagements aside from the occasional ling surround or magic box, but they arent hard in itself, roaches need some sort of blink equivalent, would make games with zerg in infintely more fun to watch, imagine roach vs stalker blink wars xD Once again. Somebody doesn't play Zerg. Try hitting injects, spreading creep, moving your ling-baneling army around the map, while making sure your mutas don't derp off and go attack a group of marines, and then tell me how easy Zerg is to play. He's not saying zerg isn't hard to play, he's saying they don't have that many watcher-friendly micro tricks and such things like protoss and terran do, which is just how the race works. Keeping up with injects is an amazing feat, but nobody says "WOW LOOK AT THAT INJECT!!" like they say "OMFG DAT MARINE SPLIT!!" It's amazing, yet unspectacular. Maybe bring back some form of BW muta micro, seeing marines picked apart was pretty cool + Show Spoiler + DB said the only reason that Muta Micro doesn't exist anymore was because of unlimited unit selection(Which would make Mutalisks very OP), which they refuse to limit. That's silly, for the same reason such a statement would be ridiculous about BW. Why? Because the more stuff you clump up, the more risk of splash damage you have. What would a single thor volley or storm do to a tight ball of 30 mutas? It would almost singlehandedly lose the game!
dont unlmited mutas already clump?
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quick question... how is extended series working this time around
is it a bo5 with puzzle starting 2-1 or what?
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How were the games between Stephano and Hero?
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On July 22 2012 13:30 leo23 wrote:
quick question... how is extended series working this time around
is it a bo5 with puzzle starting 2-1 or what?
bo7
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On July 22 2012 13:04 JazzJackrabbit wrote:
Man, it'll be crazy if Stephano and Alicia meet each other again only one week after NASL.
Yeah, I'd guess that Alicia is still a bit shaken by that 4-0. I'm really looking forward to the extended series between Stephano and Oz! I'm a zerg player and a Stephano fan, but I absolutely loved wathing Oz's PvZ yesterday and he actually outplayed Stephano which is something few protoss can say. If he can keep it up and Stephano can up his game today, it will make for some brutal and wonderful ZvP. I think it will be really tight and it's impossible to call.
I would love to see Stephano and Taeja in the finals, it would make for an epic ZvT finish!
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On July 22 2012 12:09 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 11:32 m0ck wrote:
Yeah, it really is worth remembering that the best zergs (and the best zerg late-games) are all players who are extremely fast. Losira, DRG, Symbol & Stephano all rock 400 apm. There's a reason why so few can do it and why zerg-players are so prone to making mistakes. Stephano has quite a bit less APM than those other zergs. It's widely known that Stephano's only weakness is his mechanics. He's a prodigy in everything else which is what makes him great
That's actually not true...look at his profile in the MLG site, he's only 5 apm behind loisira but far ahead zergs like Leenock and Symbol, DRG is obviously first.
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stephano has about 350 apm, I think that's enough.
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no VOD ;_; I'm torn between bypassing and waiting, but I know I'm not paying..
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On July 22 2012 18:07 Toorgr wrote:
no VOD ;_; I'm torn between bypassing and waiting, but I know I'm not paying..
really? no VOD? damn
i missed some really good games yesterday, would love to see those, even if only in LQ
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On July 22 2012 18:40 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 18:07 Toorgr wrote:
no VOD ;_; I'm torn between bypassing and waiting, but I know I'm not paying.. really? no VOD? damn i missed some really good games yesterday, would love to see those, even if only in LQ
You can just go to the live page and it'll play the whole thing, just skip to the time you want.
http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/live
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On July 22 2012 19:45 Normalised wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 18:40 Harris1st wrote:On July 22 2012 18:07 Toorgr wrote:
no VOD ;_; I'm torn between bypassing and waiting, but I know I'm not paying.. really? no VOD? damn i missed some really good games yesterday, would love to see those, even if only in LQ You can just go to the live page and it'll play the whole thing, just skip to the time you want. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/live
you can't skip without premium.
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On July 22 2012 12:43 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 12:26 Dosey wrote:On July 22 2012 12:12 HolyArrow wrote:On July 22 2012 12:09 Dosey wrote:On July 22 2012 11:58 HolyArrow wrote:On July 22 2012 11:31 Dosey wrote:On July 22 2012 11:26 HolyArrow wrote:On July 22 2012 11:24 Dosey wrote:On July 22 2012 11:22 vthree wrote:
Teamkill tomorrow between First and Losira... First just owning terrans left and right 8-1 vs TOP, PuMa, Ganzi, aLive. Sadly, he got 2-0d by a Euro zerg... Doesn't bode well for him vs Losira, unless jetlag played a role somehow. He 2-0'd Coca recently in an online cup, if that means anything to you. No.. it doesn't. Don't know why people bring up past results to try and justify something. "Stephano sucks vs zerg, especially Nerchio! He is doomed!" Stephano wins "MC has a winning record vs Stephano and is the best PvZer, he'll crush Stephano and win NASL!" Stephano wins NASL "MC has been losing to zergs non stop lately, he doesn't stand a chance vs DRG!" MC wins 3-0 etc etc. Lol the only results that exist are past results. So what do you suggest people do to justify things if past results don't matter? Current results like the one I stated before you made your (seemingly sarcastic) remark about coca. Technically all current results are in the past. What do you define as current? Also, whatever your definition is, First 2-0ing Coca was yesterday according to Liquipedia. I also didn't intend any sarcasm in my remark. Current as in this current tournament. Online cups are totally different from a LAN atmosphere. Maps are different, environment, playing conditions, player condition, etc... all come into play. So a comment like "He lost to a mid-teir foreigner and 2-1d another, so I believe he will struggle vs a Code A Korean like Losira, who was undefeated until playing a top 2 TvZer in the same tournament" Will probably hold more water than "He beat Coca in an online cup the other day, so he wont struggle vs Losira!" Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. I just don't think that means that past results are completely meaningless. People sometimes screw up early on in a tournament and suddenly turn on their A-game, too. Past results are merely convenient ways of discussing who is most likely to win a match. First 2-0ing CoCa doesn't mean too much, but it at least indicates that his PvZ is potentially pretty good, just depends if he can get is act together for tomorrow.
By no means are they completely meaningless... I'm just saying it's silly (and rather annoying) when people refer to selective past results to make an assumption and preach it likes it's the word of god. A strong counter argument can be made for every quote I brought up if people used just a bit of their brain.
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EPT
