TSL vs FXO Game 1: ★★★ Game 1 was a ZvZ. A relatively okay ZvZ. Not the greatest. Lots of nice actions here and there. A long drawn out macro ZvZ, 3 bases vs 3 bases. It was good, not great.
TSL vs FXO Game 2: ★★★ Game 2 was a PvZ. It was FREAKING awesome. Nice baneling drop play and DT action. But the game started off interesting...... and then got kind of anticlimatic at the end.
TSL vs FXO Game 3: ★★★ Game 3 was a TvP. It was a pretty intense game. It wasn't necessarily anything special but it was a treat to watch. A beautiful 8 zealot warp in bypassed the main of the Terran's and dealt significant dmg. The Terran was forced to kite the whole game while the Protoss kept up a constant stream of aggression. The game ended when one player decided "enough was enough....."
TSL vs FXO Game 4: ★★ Game 3 was a ZvP. Retarded imo..... P opts for a standard FE, Zerg decides to punish Protoss's greediness and goes for a kind of all in. Game ended when one player realized he got too confident
TSL vs FXO Game 5: ★★★★ Game 5 was a TvZ. What a beautiful game. For once, it was not a one sided retarded make a bunch of queens and mass expand and T can't do anything game. It was a great game where both players were constantly fighting each other. The game ended when one player realized the other player played too flawlessly.
TSL vs FXO Game 6: ★★★★★ Game 6 was a TvZ. I have to say..... this was probably the sickest TvZ I have seen in a LONG ASS WHILE! Ridiculous game. It had nukes, it had seeker missiles, it had drops, it had banes, it had ultras, it had infestors, it had a ridiculous amount of action. It gave hope for Terrans. It made Zergs realize how aggressive one truly can get. It was a great game.
TSL vs FXO Game 7: ★★ Game 7 was a PvZ. After a nice action packed/amazing game last game, this game was just a disappointment. P moved out too soon and lost his army. After that Zerg just relentlessly kept up an aggression. The game was kind of saved when the P busted out a 3 stargate build to change the flow of the game. But it was still a dull game.
TSL vs FXO Game 8: ★★ Game 8 was a ZvZ. Ling vs Ling. Roach vs Roach. Infestor vs Infestor. Queen vs Queen. Creep vs Creep. Larva vs Larva. Overlord vs Overlord.
TSL vs FXO Game 9: ★★★★ Game 9 was a ZvZ. After the boring ZvZ from last game this one was well worth the watch. Lovely engagements all around and a ton of ling harassment from both sides. Game ended when one player realized "crap.... wasted all those units..."
On June 23 2012 02:36 dragonborn wrote: As far i know Stephano is in Korea.You should add him to "Most Valuable TSL Player" =D
is he? I thought Stephano wasn't coming to Korea until August
I thought the article said that Adel/Stephano would be there for the 2nd group stage of GSTL which this is. But Stephano himself said he won't be there until August so who knows. Adel MIGHT be there though, Stephano I don't think is
On June 23 2012 02:36 dragonborn wrote: As far i know Stephano is in Korea.You should add him to "Most Valuable TSL Player" =D
is he? I thought Stephano wasn't coming to Korea until August
Without getting into too much details, what can we expect from the partnership between the 2 teams ?
First Adel wanted to go back to Korea after his journey with Gameone and Stephano is scheduled to go back to Korea this summer, so a partnership between gaming houses was decided. But we wanted to go further with the participation of Stephano and Adel in GSTL under the tag TSL.M‡ which will allow them to participate providing they are capable and TSL reach the 2nr round of this prestigious competition.
From what LwL ( Mill.manager, great guy btw) said TSL wanted Stephano for round 2 and asked LwL for that. But from what i know, Stephano and Adel aren't in Korea...too bad.
On June 23 2012 06:40 Sumahi wrote: Go FXO. I don't know about putting Leenock out there first, but hopefully it'll all work out.
Eh, it actually sounds like a decent idea right now seeing how he is slumping a little bit right now, he could get FXO some wins going out first like this.
Dunno why FXO is sending Leenock out first. Feel like TSL can just follow up with Inori. Bam, best player on team is out early, less Leenock got his ZvP together.
On June 23 2012 09:10 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Dunno why FXO is sending Leenock out first. Feel like TSL can just follow up with Inori. Bam, best player on team is out early, less Leenock got his ZvP together.
Based on what we saw in his matches in the HSC KR Qualifier today, I would be willing to bet he hasn't
On June 23 2012 09:10 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Dunno why FXO is sending Leenock out first. Feel like TSL can just follow up with Inori. Bam, best player on team is out early, less Leenock got his ZvP together.
Based on what we saw in his matches in the HSC KR Qualifier today, I would be willing to bet he hasn't
leenock did beat creator and seed, both very good pvz.other people he took out were byun, marineking and losira, all great players in their own right too.
On June 23 2012 09:46 CosmicSpiral wrote: TSL should just pound Leenock with ZvZs. All of TSL's zergs are capable in the other matchups while FXO doesn't have any exclusive vZ snipers.
On June 23 2012 06:40 Saiwa wrote: Most Valuable FXO Player TheBest
haha, guys
TheBest has been doing so much better than he has been in the past. He's definitely not slumping anymore. Not doing exceptional or anything but he's definitely not a player to laugh at these days
On June 23 2012 06:40 Saiwa wrote: Most Valuable FXO Player TheBest
haha, guys
TheBest has been doing so much better than he has been in the past. He's definitely not slumping anymore. Not doing exceptional or anything but he's definitely not a player to laugh at these days
He could win the next 8 GSLs in a row and we'd still be laughing at his terrible Banshee control from back in the day.
Man FXO looks really weaker this season. Sure they still have Gumiho, Leenock, Lucky, asd and Choya (:p) but none of them have been performing well lately
it's going to be up to leenock to come out of the gate strong for FXO and hopefully beat Symbol in zvz or have Tear play a great sniping game imo. TSL got my vote, though
On June 23 2012 14:03 JJH777 wrote: Stream keeps randomly stopping. Already tried restarting gom player. Will be annoying if this keeps happening during the games.
Happens to me all the time, it is like hit and miss for it to go away though, at least for me. I know how you feel though, it gets really annoying.
On June 23 2012 11:15 VirgilSC2 wrote: Scariest player on FXO's roster is Tear IMO.
He's a MONSTER
I agree. I saw him play in IPL TAC last week I think. He defended his third in PvZ for ten straight minutes under constant attacks. it was a beautiful thing. Go look it up on the IPL Youtube if you haven't seen it.
On June 23 2012 14:14 Shellshock1122 wrote: Moon is on SlayersEG? wat did the graphic just say TEAM: SlayersEG Name:FnaticRCMoon or did i look at that wrong
has to be a mistake, it would be all over reddit/tl if it were true.
On June 23 2012 14:14 Shellshock1122 wrote: Moon is on SlayersEG? wat did the graphic just say TEAM: SlayersEG Name:FnaticRCMoon or did i look at that wrong
On June 23 2012 14:14 Shellshock1122 wrote: Moon is on SlayersEG? wat did the graphic just say TEAM: SlayersEG Name:FnaticRCMoon or did i look at that wrong
he and puzzle were just out of order in that column
On June 23 2012 14:38 LgNKane wrote: can anyone tell me what happened in leenock vs hyun pwease?
hatch first by both sides, leenock went for some early attacks with banes and absolutely botched them hyun went for roach infestor, defended leenocks mutalisks with no losses and his roach hydra infestor army annihilated leenock
Hyun is butchering his economy management pretty bad here. This is looking really good for Tear. The DTs are paying for themselves without actually doing anything because Hyun just isnt mining basically.
On June 23 2012 15:03 Kieofire wrote: Hyun is making so many banlings, that is maybe the largest amount i have seen.
It sure was a lot. I think it was Moon though who made like 70 banelings at once during a MLG game back in 2011. I cant remember who it was against but I believe the map was XNC
That's the worst drop play I think I've ever seen. What's the point of dropping lings one by one on archons? Why would you load your entire army in overlords if you weren't going for a doom drop?
On June 23 2012 15:03 Kieofire wrote: Hyun is making so many banlings, that is maybe the largest amount i have seen.
It sure was a lot. I think it was Moon though who made like 70 banelings at once during a MLG game back in 2011. I cant remember who it was against but I believe the map was XNC
I believe that was against HasuObs at the first NASL finals
On June 23 2012 15:03 Kieofire wrote: Hyun is making so many banlings, that is maybe the largest amount i have seen.
It sure was a lot. I think it was Moon though who made like 70 banelings at once during a MLG game back in 2011. I cant remember who it was against but I believe the map was XNC
On June 23 2012 15:03 Kieofire wrote: Hyun is making so many banlings, that is maybe the largest amount i have seen.
It sure was a lot. I think it was Moon though who made like 70 banelings at once during a MLG game back in 2011. I cant remember who it was against but I believe the map was XNC
I believe that was against HasuObs at the first NASL finals
Oh yea I think you're right. I thought it might have been MLG Columbus when he came over for the exchange but I think now that you say that I remember vs Hasuobs
On June 23 2012 15:06 SeeKeR wrote: Huh...... I thought HyuN was ahead after that first battle but what do I know? T-T....
He was taking so much economic damage. And don't forget you have to rebuild your army because you lose banelings from that as well. You could see that they were even after the battle but Tear had 90 probes and 4 mining bases while Hyun had lost his 4th and a lot of drones during that battle (and from the harass preceding that)
On June 23 2012 15:12 Gemini00 wrote: Hahaha, they got trolled so bad there.
yeh i bet the production staff told them atlantis just for that reason. lol.
I think the production staff just tells them who is playing and not the map. Artosis seemed to be the only one who spotted that it was on Atlantis from his monitor while everyone else didn't realize until the game started.
I love TSL and I'm a huge TSL fanboy so naturally I'm cheering for them to win, but I want Tear to do well because I honestly think he's one of the most promising players out there.
honestyl things such as counter attack while terrans take mapcontrol with medivacs/warpprism sase style is the scariest thing in the world as terran, i think if it becomes mainstream it will change the match up drastically, and the terran midgame lead will go away
On June 23 2012 15:26 skiersteve wrote: sigh sc2 is a 2 race game in gstl dno why terrans are sucking so hard in it, oh well at least we still have jjakki getting wins T.T
lmao, if you think its only gstl you are sorely mistaken my friend
Time for Polt to switch up his build orders! Whenever I watch his stream he does the same 2 builds in every matchup. Although, it might be because he is streaming lol.
On June 23 2012 15:26 skiersteve wrote: sigh sc2 is a 2 race game in gstl dno why terrans are sucking so hard in it, oh well at least we still have jjakki getting wins T.T
New Star HoSeo beat Startale last week with only using Terrans
On June 23 2012 15:26 skiersteve wrote: sigh sc2 is a 2 race game in gstl dno why terrans are sucking so hard in it, oh well at least we still have jjakki getting wins T.T
lmao, if you think its only gstl you are sorely mistaken my friend
On June 23 2012 15:26 skiersteve wrote: sigh sc2 is a 2 race game in gstl dno why terrans are sucking so hard in it, oh well at least we still have jjakki getting wins T.T
New Star HoSeo beat Startale last week with only using Terrans
we should make the GSTL New Star Hoseo vs everyone else and play a different team every night.
On June 23 2012 15:26 skiersteve wrote: sigh sc2 is a 2 race game in gstl dno why terrans are sucking so hard in it, oh well at least we still have jjakki getting wins T.T
New Star HoSeo beat Startale last week with only using Terrans
uhh this sucks. was hoping that they could at least get two or three wins before having to send Symbol... doesn't look like it now with Hyun and Polt out :\
On June 23 2012 15:26 skiersteve wrote: sigh sc2 is a 2 race game in gstl dno why terrans are sucking so hard in it, oh well at least we still have jjakki getting wins T.T
New Star HoSeo beat Startale last week with only using Terrans
more like wtartale killing themselves imo. they didnt seem confident coming in anyway it was really weird match and the exception to the rule so
On June 23 2012 15:28 IMoperator wrote: Is Ragnarok terran? EDIT: yes he is. I think the coaches need to learn to never use terrans, at least in the meantime.
On June 23 2012 15:28 IMoperator wrote: Is Ragnarok terran? EDIT: yes he is. I think the coaches need to learn to never use terrans, at least in the meantime.
A tad off topic but I really like this song, I've seen Ragnarok in a few online cups, he's alright, but I'm rooting for a TSL win so gogo onward to victory! (darn I'm torn don't want to cheer against a protoss but I have to)
On June 23 2012 15:28 IMoperator wrote: Is Ragnarok terran? EDIT: yes he is. I think the coaches need to learn to never use terrans, at least in the meantime.
no, im pretty sure hes a zerg player
I said on his profile tag that he's a Code B Terran. I hope it wasn't a mistake D=
On June 23 2012 15:42 Shellshock1122 wrote: all the games on whirlwind in GSTL and GSL have been pretty disappointing so far
I don't know man that Squirtle vs ThorZain game with the DT drops was a pretty cool game
ah I missed that one. I guess I should check it out. All I can think about on this map are PvZ of like Seed vs Curious and Hero vs Curious etc... They were all just 2 base all in win/lose for toss this is also the map jinro lost on to mutas in like 10 min right?
Dafuq was that??? So anti-climactic for Tear. He's a very good player and has been playing well today. Huge blunder there. FXO is in trouble now. If Ragnarok lost to Tear, TSL has to send Symbol and now FXO is up 3-1. Shame that game had to end the way it did.
On June 23 2012 15:55 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote: gosh its sickening to see that much mistakes in economy management when everthing else is brilliant GUMIHO GET STIMasdldkadkzfegjknjxdahd
On June 23 2012 15:55 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote: gosh its sickening to see that much mistakes in economy management when everthing else is brilliant GUMIHO GET STIMasdldkadkzfegjknjxdahd
stim being lined up with 2-2, concussive shells, and +1 mech. I think the delay was intentional.
dont get why the zerg went roaches, they are not good vs MMM
On June 23 2012 16:01 andaylin wrote: looks like economic 2 rax is on its way back? that looked much better than reactor hellion openings i see getting smashed on streams.
On June 23 2012 15:55 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote: gosh its sickening to see that much mistakes in economy management when everthing else is brilliant GUMIHO GET STIMasdldkadkzfegjknjxdahd
stim being lined up with 2-2, concussive shells, and +1 mech. I think the delay was intentional.
i guess but he had so much excess gas i feel it was an unnecessary risk, the build in that way felt really vulnerable to a lot of retarded garbage eu zergs like to do so i dont see him never having problem in practice, pretty sure he could have had stim done by the time he started it
On June 23 2012 15:55 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote: gosh its sickening to see that much mistakes in economy management when everthing else is brilliant GUMIHO GET STIMasdldkadkzfegjknjxdahd
stim being lined up with 2-2, concussive shells, and +1 mech. I think the delay was intentional.
i guess but he had so much excess gas i feel it was an unnecessary risk, the build in that way felt really vulnerable to a lot of retarded garbage eu zergs like to do so i dont see him never having problem in practice, pretty sure he could have had stim done by the time he started it
how do the EU zergs do it? I feel like he did sufficient damage with the 2-rax and had a good defense with quick siege tanks that zerg wouldn't be able to touch him.
Looks like this is Gumibear's go-to build in TvZ now.
On June 23 2012 16:17 W2 wrote: LOL Artosis. Never stops with the Yonghwa love. Sure he dazzled you with his 3 stalker build but that was 2 years ago LOL
Yonghwa is actually doing well now though, he all-killed in IPL TAC and qualified for HSC4.
On June 23 2012 16:17 W2 wrote: LOL Artosis. Never stops with the Yonghwa love. Sure he dazzled you with his 3 stalker build but that was 2 years ago LOL
Yonghwa won the korean HSC V qualifier yesterday =)
On June 23 2012 16:17 W2 wrote: LOL Artosis. Never stops with the Yonghwa love. Sure he dazzled you with his 3 stalker build but that was 2 years ago LOL
Yonghwa won the korean HSC V qualifier yesterday =)
Probably because artosis wasnt casting in order to curse him
I love Artosis complaining about everyone using Zergs too much and refusing to even bring up that they are all progamers and probably smarter and better than him at the game. Maybe everyone is using Zerg because it's IMBA right now.
On June 23 2012 16:19 Jlei wrote: I love Artosis complaining about everyone using Zergs too much and refusing to even bring up that they are all progamers and probably smarter and better than him at the game. Maybe everyone is using Zerg because it's IMBA right now.
You have to remember, this is a guy that was preaching the viability of mech in TvP for the longest time.
On June 23 2012 16:19 Jlei wrote: I love Artosis complaining about everyone using Zergs too much and refusing to even bring up that they are all progamers and probably smarter and better than him at the game. Maybe everyone is using Zerg because it's IMBA right now.
I think Artosis probably knows more about this game than you ever will, judging from the quality of this comment lol.
Artosis: "WOW Shine is so good with Creep Spread, he even has creep on those islands!!" Wolf: "yea wow you're right... he is using Overlord to drop creeps there" Artosis: "...no he's not... it was a joke"
Artosis: "WOW Shine is so good with Creep Spread, he even has creep on those islands!!" Wolf: "yea wow you're right... he is using Overlord to drop creeps there" Artosis: "...no he's not... it was a joke"
not talking about balance, but from a spectaor point of view tvz has gone really downhill to watch :/ with the insane macro z can get early there just getting fast ultra infestor and rolling over the terran the back and forth constant action has gone
random question: what if, say an ultra, hits burrow right before the HSM could make contact (provided that theres no detection). will the HSM still activate?
On June 23 2012 16:34 Arceus wrote: random question: what if, say an ultra, hits burrow right before the HSM could make contact (provided that theres no detection). will the HSM still activate?
On June 23 2012 16:42 Fragile51 wrote: Man...........Gumiho is a fucking hero. Even if it didn't work.
Gumiho lost in early game.
Then camped on 2 base for 15 minutes (one prong drops every few minutes), with huge bank entire time, while zerg constantly sacked units against gumiho. I really do not see what is impressive about that.
I have no idea how anyone would merit the use of HSM as the savior of Terran lategame vs Zerg based on that game. Gumiho died so hard during the transition and those Seeker Missiles did nothing.
It was the MMM that allowed Gumiho to stay in the game, not the damn Ravens.
That could have been the most epic thing since the BC Archon Toilet. Still a great game. SO many what ifs. What if he had 1 Ghost and emp'd those Infestors? Or had another Raven??
On June 23 2012 16:42 Fragile51 wrote: Man...........Gumiho is a fucking hero. Even if it didn't work.
Gumiho lost in early game.
Then camped on 2 base for 15 minutes (one prong drops every few minutes), with huge bank entire time, while zerg constantly sacked units against gumiho. I really do not see what is impressive about that.
Are you stupid? He went quick 3 orbital commands and floated the third as quickly as possible. He lost because he was investing in ghosts + ravens instead of more tanks against ultra/ling/bane/infestor which crushes bio.
On June 23 2012 16:46 HeroMystic wrote: I have no idea how anyone would merit the use of HSM as the savior of Terran lategame vs Zerg based on that game. Gumiho died so hard during the transition and those Seeker Missiles did nothing.
It was the MMM that allowed Gumiho to stay in the game, not the damn Ravens.
The Seeker Missiles killed all the Banelings I believe.
On June 23 2012 16:46 HeroMystic wrote: I have no idea how anyone would merit the use of HSM as the savior of Terran lategame vs Zerg based on that game. Gumiho died so hard during the transition and those Seeker Missiles did nothing.
It was the MMM that allowed Gumiho to stay in the game, not the damn Ravens.
Yeah, we were all talking about Gumiho's 'epic comeback' (1!@!@) before he even started making the Ravens, they really did very little.
On June 23 2012 16:46 HeroMystic wrote: I have no idea how anyone would merit the use of HSM as the savior of Terran lategame vs Zerg based on that game. Gumiho died so hard during the transition and those Seeker Missiles did nothing.
It was the MMM that allowed Gumiho to stay in the game, not the damn Ravens.
The Seeker Missiles killed all the Banelings I believe.
Might've. We'll never know due to cameraman fail. But at that point banelings doesn't even really matter. It's the Infestors that the problem.
And remember, that was METRO-TURTLE map. Has anyone else besides me noticed that it has been the -only- map that allowed Terrans to stay in the game longer than they should've?
On June 23 2012 16:46 HeroMystic wrote: I have no idea how anyone would merit the use of HSM as the savior of Terran lategame vs Zerg based on that game. Gumiho died so hard during the transition and those Seeker Missiles did nothing.
It was the MMM that allowed Gumiho to stay in the game, not the damn Ravens.
He died in the transition, that doesn't mean much. If he doesn't die and makes to the late game with all those Ravens, you have something there. Remember Morrow vs Leenock?
On June 23 2012 16:46 HeroMystic wrote: I have no idea how anyone would merit the use of HSM as the savior of Terran lategame vs Zerg based on that game. Gumiho died so hard during the transition and those Seeker Missiles did nothing.
It was the MMM that allowed Gumiho to stay in the game, not the damn Ravens.
The Seeker Missiles killed all the Banelings I believe.
Impossible lol. HSM deal 100 damage in 0.5 range radius, 50 damage in 1.0 range, and 25 damage in 2.0 range, so it can never kill banelings that are over 1.0 radius of the hit because banelings have 30hp.
On June 23 2012 16:46 HeroMystic wrote: I have no idea how anyone would merit the use of HSM as the savior of Terran lategame vs Zerg based on that game. Gumiho died so hard during the transition and those Seeker Missiles did nothing.
It was the MMM that allowed Gumiho to stay in the game, not the damn Ravens.
The Seeker Missiles killed all the Banelings I believe.
Impossible lol. HSM deal 100 damage in 0.5 range radius, 50 damage in 1.0 range, and 25 damage in 2.0 range, so it can never kill banelings that are over 1.0 radius of the hit because banelings have 30hp.
With one missile yes, but I think two were used which spaced apart would've been enough to kill a majority of the banes. We'll never be able to tell for sure though without the replay.
On June 23 2012 16:54 Jonoman92 wrote: I like Wolf, but just wondering. Why is it them instead of the Tastosis combo?
What other people have said, Wolf and Khaldor normally cast the GSTL, but Khaldor is in Germany at the moment. They rotate between Artosis and Tasteless with Wolf to cast the GSTL until Khaldor gets back.
On June 23 2012 16:46 HeroMystic wrote: I have no idea how anyone would merit the use of HSM as the savior of Terran lategame vs Zerg based on that game. Gumiho died so hard during the transition and those Seeker Missiles did nothing.
It was the MMM that allowed Gumiho to stay in the game, not the damn Ravens.
He died in the transition, that doesn't mean much. If he doesn't die and makes to the late game with all those Ravens, you have something there. Remember Morrow vs Leenock?
I never watched Morrow vs Leenock, but I seen plenty of lategame Raven play. I actually think lategame Ravens are better with Mech, but that's purely a subjective option.
As for the Ravens themselves, you need a lot of them (8-10) for them to be effective. Can kill them with 3 Ravens if Zerg doesn't split at all (which is what ends up happening -_-; ). That's an absurd amount of Ravens to transition into. In fact I'd say Ghosts would be a better transition since they're usable out of the box.
Unbelievable right? Zerg is destroying right now and just last season 5 of the 8 players in the Ro8 were Protoss. We've come a long way from GomTvT in October....
Surprisingly, the team with more and better Zerg won, who would've thought. Were there any remarkable games or can anyone recommend any game in the series worth watching? Grats to TSL ~
On June 23 2012 17:42 ACrow wrote: Surprisingly, the team with more and better Zerg won, who would've thought. Were there any remarkable games or can anyone recommend any game in the series worth watching? Grats to TSL ~
On June 23 2012 17:42 ACrow wrote: Surprisingly, the team with more and better Zerg won, who would've thought. Were there any remarkable games or can anyone recommend any game in the series worth watching? Grats to TSL ~
Actually the problem is that most of FXO players are in slump right now (except one player who's on tear), and GumiHo took a win... Maybe CHoya could ahve made 2 sentry-immoral all-in and win this :D
On June 23 2012 17:42 ACrow wrote: Surprisingly, the team with more and better Zerg won, who would've thought. Were there any remarkable games or can anyone recommend any game in the series worth watching? Grats to TSL ~
I believe there is a section titled "recommended games".......
On June 23 2012 17:42 ACrow wrote: Surprisingly, the team with more and better Zerg won, who would've thought. Were there any remarkable games or can anyone recommend any game in the series worth watching? Grats to TSL ~
I believe there is a section titled "recommended games".......
On June 23 2012 17:42 ACrow wrote: Surprisingly, the team with more and better Zerg won, who would've thought. Were there any remarkable games or can anyone recommend any game in the series worth watching? Grats to TSL ~
I believe there is a section titled "recommended games".......
Oh sorry Seeker, your OPs are always awesome, dunno why I didn't think about that. Thanks for the recommendations!
On June 23 2012 17:42 ACrow wrote: Surprisingly, the team with more and better Zerg won, who would've thought. Were there any remarkable games or can anyone recommend any game in the series worth watching? Grats to TSL ~
I believe there is a section titled "recommended games".......
Oh sorry Seeker, your OPs are always awesome, dunno why I didn't think about that. Thanks for the recommendations!
NP. Enjoy them, as I will NEVER leave my audience disappointed when I am the OP :D
Kind of funny to see Gumiho trying some random shit (nuke while dropping while massing ravens) and in the end getting a-moved by infestors/broodlords ;D
On June 23 2012 18:52 forsooth wrote: Another day, another run of wins by Zerg.
I see 2 wins for zerg and 2 for protoss in zvp, 1 win for terran and 1 for zerg in tvz.
Where do you see 2nd zvp win for protoss? And the fact that teams send massive amount of zerg players speaks for itself.
The best players on TSL are zerg except polt (who played) and Inori (who either just came back from the US or is still there) and FXO send 2 zerg, 2 protoss and 1 terran.
On June 23 2012 18:52 forsooth wrote: Another day, another run of wins by Zerg.
I see 2 wins for zerg and 2 for protoss in zvp, 1 win for terran and 1 for zerg in tvz.
Where do you see 2nd zvp win for protoss? And the fact that teams send massive amount of zerg players speaks for itself.
The best players on TSL are zerg except polt (who played) and Inori (who either just came back from the US or is still there) and FXO send 2 zerg, 2 protoss and 1 terran.
Such a tell that zerg is broken...
I like this form of circular non-sensical reasoning.
You define the best players as the ones who win the most. Since Zerg is currently the best race, Zergs are winning the most. As they're winning the most, they're the best players, so they're not winning because of balance issues.
I'm very happy that TSL won... but after looking at the results of which players came out and succeeded, it seems that FXO missed the balance-whine (or is it just "balance"?) memo. lol.
On June 23 2012 20:06 SiroKO wrote: I like this form of circular non-sensical reasoning.
You define the best players as the ones who win the most. Since Zerg is currently the best race, Zergs are winning the most. As they're winning the most, they're the best players, so they're not winning because of balance issues.
That's not at all what he said. He just noticed that apart from Polt and Inori all the good players on TSL are zergs, so it would make sense that they send out zergs and get zerg wins. Does that sound illogical to you?
Here are some nice other facts: NSH got 5 terran wins last week. The Code S breakdown was basically third-third-third, with zerg qualifying the least amount, and each race getting about half of their players to next round.
I'm sorry that you suck at TvZ right now but don't try to pin it on balance.
On June 23 2012 20:06 SiroKO wrote: I like this form of circular non-sensical reasoning.
You define the best players as the ones who win the most. Since Zerg is currently the best race, Zergs are winning the most. As they're winning the most, they're the best players, so they're not winning because of balance issues.
That's not at all what he said. He just noticed that apart from Polt and Inori all the good players on TSL are zergs, so it would make sense that they send out zergs and get zerg wins. Does that sound illogical to you?
Here are some nice other facts: NSH got 5 terran wins last week. The Code S breakdown was basically third-third-third, with zerg qualifying the least amount, and each race getting about half of their players to next round.
I'm sorry that you suck at TvZ right now but don't try to pin it on balance.
Yup let's just not mention every other tournament not named GSL/GSTL
On June 23 2012 20:06 SiroKO wrote: I like this form of circular non-sensical reasoning.
You define the best players as the ones who win the most. Since Zerg is currently the best race, Zergs are winning the most. As they're winning the most, they're the best players, so they're not winning because of balance issues.
That's not at all what he said. He just noticed that apart from Polt and Inori all the good players on TSL are zergs, so it would make sense that they send out zergs and get zerg wins. Does that sound illogical to you?
Here are some nice other facts: NSH got 5 terran wins last week. The Code S breakdown was basically third-third-third, with zerg qualifying the least amount, and each race getting about half of their players to next round.
I'm sorry that you suck at TvZ right now but don't try to pin it on balance.
Yup let's just not mention every other tournament not named GSL/GSTL
Please do enlighten us on what other tournaments you are thinking of? I can only think of one so either you're delusional, seeing something no one else is seeing, or just extreamly bias I'm thinking two of these are correct though maybe you're right though just not seeing how that's possible lol.
On June 23 2012 20:06 SiroKO wrote: I like this form of circular non-sensical reasoning.
You define the best players as the ones who win the most. Since Zerg is currently the best race, Zergs are winning the most. As they're winning the most, they're the best players, so they're not winning because of balance issues.
That's not at all what he said. He just noticed that apart from Polt and Inori all the good players on TSL are zergs, so it would make sense that they send out zergs and get zerg wins. Does that sound illogical to you?
Here are some nice other facts: NSH got 5 terran wins last week. The Code S breakdown was basically third-third-third, with zerg qualifying the least amount, and each race getting about half of their players to next round.
I'm sorry that you suck at TvZ right now but don't try to pin it on balance.
Yup let's just not mention every other tournament not named GSL/GSTL
Please do enlighten us on what other tournaments you are thinking of? I can only think of one so either you're delusional, seeing something no one else is seeing, or just extreamly bias I'm thinking two of these are correct though maybe you're right though just not seeing how that's possible lol.
Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote: Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Considering you're including a tournament in which Puma 4-1'ed his group and Marineking went 5-0 in a group that included Symbol, then beat Stephano on his way to finish 3rd, yeah, we're going to make you go through TLPD.
Also, that's 3 tournaments. Congrats on using a WAY BIGGER SAMPLE than me.
On June 23 2012 20:06 SiroKO wrote: I like this form of circular non-sensical reasoning.
You define the best players as the ones who win the most. Since Zerg is currently the best race, Zergs are winning the most. As they're winning the most, they're the best players, so they're not winning because of balance issues.
That's not at all what he said. He just noticed that apart from Polt and Inori all the good players on TSL are zergs, so it would make sense that they send out zergs and get zerg wins. Does that sound illogical to you?
Here are some nice other facts: NSH got 5 terran wins last week. The Code S breakdown was basically third-third-third, with zerg qualifying the least amount, and each race getting about half of their players to next round.
I'm sorry that you suck at TvZ right now but don't try to pin it on balance.
Yup let's just not mention every other tournament not named GSL/GSTL
Please do enlighten us on what other tournaments you are thinking of? I can only think of one so either you're delusional, seeing something no one else is seeing, or just extreamly bias I'm thinking two of these are correct though maybe you're right though just not seeing how that's possible lol.
Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Terran finally dropped under 50% in a matchup for once?
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote: Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Considering you're including a tournament in which Puma 4-1'ed his group and Marineking went 5-0 in a group that included Symbol, then beat Stephano on his way to finish 3rd, yeah, we're going to make you go through TLPD.
Also, that's 3 tournaments. Congrats on using a WAY BIGGER SAMPLE than me.
If you're going to use data to prove a point you can't ignore other tournaments, if you don't want to argue using statistics then I can tell you to simply open your eyes.
On June 23 2012 20:06 SiroKO wrote: I like this form of circular non-sensical reasoning.
You define the best players as the ones who win the most. Since Zerg is currently the best race, Zergs are winning the most. As they're winning the most, they're the best players, so they're not winning because of balance issues.
That's not at all what he said. He just noticed that apart from Polt and Inori all the good players on TSL are zergs, so it would make sense that they send out zergs and get zerg wins. Does that sound illogical to you?
Here are some nice other facts: NSH got 5 terran wins last week. The Code S breakdown was basically third-third-third, with zerg qualifying the least amount, and each race getting about half of their players to next round.
I'm sorry that you suck at TvZ right now but don't try to pin it on balance.
Yup let's just not mention every other tournament not named GSL/GSTL
Please do enlighten us on what other tournaments you are thinking of? I can only think of one so either you're delusional, seeing something no one else is seeing, or just extreamly bias I'm thinking two of these are correct though maybe you're right though just not seeing how that's possible lol.
Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Terran finally dropped under 50% in a matchup for once?
BLASPHEMY!
Okay, so the " terran was good before so it's fine that they they had under 35% TvZ in two separate tournaments on the same weekend argument, convincing stuff!
I thought we wanted the game to be balanced instead of playing " which race is better this month? "
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote: Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Considering you're including a tournament in which Puma 4-1'ed his group and Marineking went 5-0 in a group that included Symbol, then beat Stephano on his way to finish 3rd, yeah, we're going to make you go through TLPD.
Also, that's 3 tournaments. Congrats on using a WAY BIGGER SAMPLE than me.
If you're going to use data to prove a point you can't ignore other tournaments, if you don't want to argue using statistics then I can tell you to simply open your eyes.
On June 23 2012 20:06 SiroKO wrote: I like this form of circular non-sensical reasoning.
You define the best players as the ones who win the most. Since Zerg is currently the best race, Zergs are winning the most. As they're winning the most, they're the best players, so they're not winning because of balance issues.
That's not at all what he said. He just noticed that apart from Polt and Inori all the good players on TSL are zergs, so it would make sense that they send out zergs and get zerg wins. Does that sound illogical to you?
Here are some nice other facts: NSH got 5 terran wins last week. The Code S breakdown was basically third-third-third, with zerg qualifying the least amount, and each race getting about half of their players to next round.
I'm sorry that you suck at TvZ right now but don't try to pin it on balance.
Yup let's just not mention every other tournament not named GSL/GSTL
Please do enlighten us on what other tournaments you are thinking of? I can only think of one so either you're delusional, seeing something no one else is seeing, or just extreamly bias I'm thinking two of these are correct though maybe you're right though just not seeing how that's possible lol.
Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Terran finally dropped under 50% in a matchup for once?
BLASPHEMY!
Okay, so the " terran was good before so it's fine that they they had under 35% TvZ in two separate tournaments on the same weekend argument, convincing stuff!
I thought we wanted the game to be balanced instead of playing " which race is better this month? "
The game is heading toward balance. Now that terran can't "herp derp" mass hellions into a drone line and kill everything and the player actually has to have some THOUGHT or SKILL many terran players are suffering. Its not really balance's fault that something got nerfed yet terran players DON'T REACT AT ALL. Terran players have had to do so much less for so long to get the same amount of wins (backd up by early terran dominance ect ect) that now that their race is being more skill based and less "did my hellions run in" they have no idea what the hell to do. Terrans need to start exploring other options, for example mech. Why any terrans are still going bio in TvZ is astonishing as zerg has no good answer for a late game maxed mech push into sky terran/mech. But no, its much easier to still reactor hellion expand into bio or 1 rax expand into bio because thats exactly what's been happening since people actually started expanding
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote: Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Considering you're including a tournament in which Puma 4-1'ed his group and Marineking went 5-0 in a group that included Symbol, then beat Stephano on his way to finish 3rd, yeah, we're going to make you go through TLPD.
Also, that's 3 tournaments. Congrats on using a WAY BIGGER SAMPLE than me.
If you're going to use data to prove a point you can't ignore other tournaments, if you don't want to argue using statistics then I can tell you to simply open your eyes.
On June 23 2012 23:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:13 Catatonic wrote:
On June 23 2012 21:51 Dodgin wrote:
On June 23 2012 21:38 Gesarjack wrote:
On June 23 2012 20:06 SiroKO wrote: I like this form of circular non-sensical reasoning.
You define the best players as the ones who win the most. Since Zerg is currently the best race, Zergs are winning the most. As they're winning the most, they're the best players, so they're not winning because of balance issues.
That's not at all what he said. He just noticed that apart from Polt and Inori all the good players on TSL are zergs, so it would make sense that they send out zergs and get zerg wins. Does that sound illogical to you?
Here are some nice other facts: NSH got 5 terran wins last week. The Code S breakdown was basically third-third-third, with zerg qualifying the least amount, and each race getting about half of their players to next round.
I'm sorry that you suck at TvZ right now but don't try to pin it on balance.
Yup let's just not mention every other tournament not named GSL/GSTL
Please do enlighten us on what other tournaments you are thinking of? I can only think of one so either you're delusional, seeing something no one else is seeing, or just extreamly bias I'm thinking two of these are correct though maybe you're right though just not seeing how that's possible lol.
Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Terran finally dropped under 50% in a matchup for once?
BLASPHEMY!
Okay, so the " terran was good before so it's fine that they they had under 35% TvZ in two separate tournaments on the same weekend argument, convincing stuff!
I thought we wanted the game to be balanced instead of playing " which race is better this month? "
The game is heading toward balance. Now that terran can't "herp derp" mass hellions into a drone line and kill everything and the player actually has to have some THOUGHT or SKILL many terran players are suffering. Its not really balance's fault that something got nerfed yet terran players DON'T REACT AT ALL. Terran players have had to do so much less for so long to get the same amount of wins (backd up by early terran dominance ect ect) that now that their race is being more skill based and less "did my hellions run in" they have no idea what the hell to do. Terrans need to start exploring other options, for example mech. Why any terrans are still going bio in TvZ is astonishing as zerg has no good answer for a late game maxed mech push into sky terran/mech. But no, its much easier to still reactor hellion expand into bio or 1 rax expand into bio because thats exactly what's been happening since people actually started expanding
1. Mech is terrible if your opponent scouts you and reacts properly, by maxing on roaches and getting drops, picking you apart before you have a big enough army.
2. jesus christ I wonder what you were saying before the Snipe nerf about TvZ if that's how you think it worked.
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote: Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Considering you're including a tournament in which Puma 4-1'ed his group and Marineking went 5-0 in a group that included Symbol, then beat Stephano on his way to finish 3rd, yeah, we're going to make you go through TLPD.
Also, that's 3 tournaments. Congrats on using a WAY BIGGER SAMPLE than me.
If you're going to use data to prove a point you can't ignore other tournaments, if you don't want to argue using statistics then I can tell you to simply open your eyes.
On June 23 2012 23:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:13 Catatonic wrote:
On June 23 2012 21:51 Dodgin wrote:
On June 23 2012 21:38 Gesarjack wrote:
On June 23 2012 20:06 SiroKO wrote: I like this form of circular non-sensical reasoning.
You define the best players as the ones who win the most. Since Zerg is currently the best race, Zergs are winning the most. As they're winning the most, they're the best players, so they're not winning because of balance issues.
That's not at all what he said. He just noticed that apart from Polt and Inori all the good players on TSL are zergs, so it would make sense that they send out zergs and get zerg wins. Does that sound illogical to you?
Here are some nice other facts: NSH got 5 terran wins last week. The Code S breakdown was basically third-third-third, with zerg qualifying the least amount, and each race getting about half of their players to next round.
I'm sorry that you suck at TvZ right now but don't try to pin it on balance.
Yup let's just not mention every other tournament not named GSL/GSTL
Please do enlighten us on what other tournaments you are thinking of? I can only think of one so either you're delusional, seeing something no one else is seeing, or just extreamly bias I'm thinking two of these are correct though maybe you're right though just not seeing how that's possible lol.
Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Terran finally dropped under 50% in a matchup for once?
BLASPHEMY!
Okay, so the " terran was good before so it's fine that they they had under 35% TvZ in two separate tournaments on the same weekend argument, convincing stuff!
I thought we wanted the game to be balanced instead of playing " which race is better this month? "
The game is heading toward balance. Now that terran can't "herp derp" mass hellions into a drone line and kill everything and the player actually has to have some THOUGHT or SKILL many terran players are suffering. Its not really balance's fault that something got nerfed yet terran players DON'T REACT AT ALL. Terran players have had to do so much less for so long to get the same amount of wins (backd up by early terran dominance ect ect) that now that their race is being more skill based and less "did my hellions run in" they have no idea what the hell to do. Terrans need to start exploring other options, for example mech. Why any terrans are still going bio in TvZ is astonishing as zerg has no good answer for a late game maxed mech push into sky terran/mech. But no, its much easier to still reactor hellion expand into bio or 1 rax expand into bio because thats exactly what's been happening since people actually started expanding
Except TvZ was 50-50% before the patch... and then Zerg got buffed. The game is heading toward balance they say.... If balance mean TvZ 30%, then sure, we are half way there.
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote: Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Considering you're including a tournament in which Puma 4-1'ed his group and Marineking went 5-0 in a group that included Symbol, then beat Stephano on his way to finish 3rd, yeah, we're going to make you go through TLPD.
Also, that's 3 tournaments. Congrats on using a WAY BIGGER SAMPLE than me.
If you're going to use data to prove a point you can't ignore other tournaments, if you don't want to argue using statistics then I can tell you to simply open your eyes.
On June 23 2012 23:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:13 Catatonic wrote:
On June 23 2012 21:51 Dodgin wrote:
On June 23 2012 21:38 Gesarjack wrote:
On June 23 2012 20:06 SiroKO wrote: I like this form of circular non-sensical reasoning.
You define the best players as the ones who win the most. Since Zerg is currently the best race, Zergs are winning the most. As they're winning the most, they're the best players, so they're not winning because of balance issues.
That's not at all what he said. He just noticed that apart from Polt and Inori all the good players on TSL are zergs, so it would make sense that they send out zergs and get zerg wins. Does that sound illogical to you?
Here are some nice other facts: NSH got 5 terran wins last week. The Code S breakdown was basically third-third-third, with zerg qualifying the least amount, and each race getting about half of their players to next round.
I'm sorry that you suck at TvZ right now but don't try to pin it on balance.
Yup let's just not mention every other tournament not named GSL/GSTL
Please do enlighten us on what other tournaments you are thinking of? I can only think of one so either you're delusional, seeing something no one else is seeing, or just extreamly bias I'm thinking two of these are correct though maybe you're right though just not seeing how that's possible lol.
Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Terran finally dropped under 50% in a matchup for once?
BLASPHEMY!
Okay, so the " terran was good before so it's fine that they they had under 35% TvZ in two separate tournaments on the same weekend argument, convincing stuff!
I thought we wanted the game to be balanced instead of playing " which race is better this month? "
The game is heading toward balance. Now that terran can't "herp derp" mass hellions into a drone line and kill everything and the player actually has to have some THOUGHT or SKILL many terran players are suffering. Its not really balance's fault that something got nerfed yet terran players DON'T REACT AT ALL. Terran players have had to do so much less for so long to get the same amount of wins (backd up by early terran dominance ect ect) that now that their race is being more skill based and less "did my hellions run in" they have no idea what the hell to do. Terrans need to start exploring other options, for example mech. Why any terrans are still going bio in TvZ is astonishing as zerg has no good answer for a late game maxed mech push into sky terran/mech. But no, its much easier to still reactor hellion expand into bio or 1 rax expand into bio because thats exactly what's been happening since people actually started expanding
1. Mech is terrible if your opponent scouts you and reacts properly, by maxing on roaches and getting drops, picking you apart before you have a big enough army.
2. jesus christ I wonder what you were saying before the Snipe nerf about TvZ if that's how you think it worked.
Terrans are in a tough spot for sure but I think it would be shortsighted to say the other races haven't been going through something similar. For once the Ironclad Korean Terran Pros aren't showing that they are winning everything. Some are still able to play well and out play their opponents so they continue to head forward.
At least you can watch Terrans play, I remember a few seasons of GSL where I had maybe four or five protoss series to look forward to in a season.
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote: Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Considering you're including a tournament in which Puma 4-1'ed his group and Marineking went 5-0 in a group that included Symbol, then beat Stephano on his way to finish 3rd, yeah, we're going to make you go through TLPD.
Also, that's 3 tournaments. Congrats on using a WAY BIGGER SAMPLE than me.
If you're going to use data to prove a point you can't ignore other tournaments, if you don't want to argue using statistics then I can tell you to simply open your eyes.
On June 23 2012 23:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:13 Catatonic wrote:
On June 23 2012 21:51 Dodgin wrote:
On June 23 2012 21:38 Gesarjack wrote:
On June 23 2012 20:06 SiroKO wrote: I like this form of circular non-sensical reasoning.
You define the best players as the ones who win the most. Since Zerg is currently the best race, Zergs are winning the most. As they're winning the most, they're the best players, so they're not winning because of balance issues.
That's not at all what he said. He just noticed that apart from Polt and Inori all the good players on TSL are zergs, so it would make sense that they send out zergs and get zerg wins. Does that sound illogical to you?
Here are some nice other facts: NSH got 5 terran wins last week. The Code S breakdown was basically third-third-third, with zerg qualifying the least amount, and each race getting about half of their players to next round.
I'm sorry that you suck at TvZ right now but don't try to pin it on balance.
Yup let's just not mention every other tournament not named GSL/GSTL
Please do enlighten us on what other tournaments you are thinking of? I can only think of one so either you're delusional, seeing something no one else is seeing, or just extreamly bias I'm thinking two of these are correct though maybe you're right though just not seeing how that's possible lol.
Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Terran finally dropped under 50% in a matchup for once?
BLASPHEMY!
Okay, so the " terran was good before so it's fine that they they had under 35% TvZ in two separate tournaments on the same weekend argument, convincing stuff!
I thought we wanted the game to be balanced instead of playing " which race is better this month? "
The game is heading toward balance. Now that terran can't "herp derp" mass hellions into a drone line and kill everything and the player actually has to have some THOUGHT or SKILL many terran players are suffering. Its not really balance's fault that something got nerfed yet terran players DON'T REACT AT ALL. Terran players have had to do so much less for so long to get the same amount of wins (backd up by early terran dominance ect ect) that now that their race is being more skill based and less "did my hellions run in" they have no idea what the hell to do. Terrans need to start exploring other options, for example mech. Why any terrans are still going bio in TvZ is astonishing as zerg has no good answer for a late game maxed mech push into sky terran/mech. But no, its much easier to still reactor hellion expand into bio or 1 rax expand into bio because thats exactly what's been happening since people actually started expanding
1. Mech is terrible if your opponent scouts you and reacts properly, by maxing on roaches and getting drops, picking you apart before you have a big enough army.
2. jesus christ I wonder what you were saying before the Snipe nerf about TvZ if that's how you think it worked.
Terrans are in a tough spot for sure but I think it would be shortsighted to say the other races haven't been going through something similar. For once the Ironclad Korean Terran Pros aren't showing that they are winning everything. Some are still able to play well and out play their opponents so they continue to head forward.
At least you can watch Terrans play, I remember a few seasons of GSL where I had maybe four or five protoss series to look forward to in a season.
I'm absolutely not saying there have not been problems in the past that the other races ( I play Protoss for the record, sad zealot days yada yada ) have had to deal with, but I don't believe in this cycle of buffing and nerfing to extremes, we should be able to find a healthy game balance where the winrates should be 55%-45% in either races favor at most tournaments depending on player skill.
Personally right now I think TvP and ZvP are balanced, while ZvP doesn't have the most fun gameplay with the mothership vs bl/infestor wars and lots of 2 base all-ins I don't see any glaring imbalances in the game, I just can't say that for TvZ and I say this without bias as a spectator and not a person who plays either race.
TvZ before the patch was fine, Terrans had an advantage ( in most cases ) in the early and midgame while Zerg had an advantage in the late-game. This is Blizzard's apparent design philosophy for Starcraft 2 where they want certain races to feel stronger and certain points in the game, currently I don't feel Terran has an advantage at any point during the game in TvZ and that's a problem.
While I don't think It's impossible that Terran can find a solution without the need for a patch it seems rather unlikely, the game is two years old and mostly figured out at this point. I don't know how many new openers can be invented.
On June 23 2012 23:17 Dodgin wrote: If you're going to use data to prove a point you can't ignore other tournaments, if you don't want to argue using statistics then I can tell you to simply open your eyes.
I was answering about a post that showed GSTL "evidence", so I used GSL and GSTL facts. Sorry about being so narrow-minded. Although I understand how it would be annoying for you that the biggest tournament in the world which included the best "group" (as opposed to individualities) of players in the world showed balanced results.
My problem is not mainly that terran is losing or winning. My problem is that a whole bunch of people, and probably you included, are hiding behind balance to complain about terran loss. If I go back six months ago, will I find you complaining about terrans winning everything? Or would there only be posts like this one: "Just let the whiners continue to whine about balance. You won't change their opinions even with the most sound of logic." (30 oct. 2011, about a TvP)
If there are only posts like this, you're not in it for balance. You're in it for terrans. And if you personnally aren't, you can acknowledge with me that a lot of people posting these days are. I think they should just know theirself for what they are.
Your points are valid, I don't enjoy arguing using statistics in general, I prefer to discuss details. I just don't like to see comments saying everything is fine because the race representation in the RO16 in GSL is even.
On June 23 2012 23:17 Dodgin wrote: If you're going to use data to prove a point you can't ignore other tournaments, if you don't want to argue using statistics then I can tell you to simply open your eyes.
I was answering about a post that showed GSTL "evidence", so I used GSL and GSTL facts. Sorry about being so narrow-minded. Although I understand how it would be annoying for you that the biggest tournament in the world which included the best "group" (as opposed to individualities) of players in the world showed balanced results.
My problem is not mainly that terran is losing or winning. My problem is that a whole bunch of people, and probably you included, are hiding behind balance to complain about terran loss. If I go back six months ago, will I find you complaining about terrans winning everything? Or would there only be posts like this one: "Just let the whiners continue to whine about balance. You won't change their opinions even with the most sound of logic." (30 oct. 2011, about a TvP)
If there are only posts like this, you're not in it for balance. You're in it for terrans. And if you personnally aren't, you can acknowledge with me that a lot of people posting these days are. I think they should just know theirself for what they are.
Edit: Given your last post you're prolly not someone I'm targeting.
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote: Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Considering you're including a tournament in which Puma 4-1'ed his group and Marineking went 5-0 in a group that included Symbol, then beat Stephano on his way to finish 3rd, yeah, we're going to make you go through TLPD.
Also, that's 3 tournaments. Congrats on using a WAY BIGGER SAMPLE than me.
If you're going to use data to prove a point you can't ignore other tournaments, if you don't want to argue using statistics then I can tell you to simply open your eyes.
On June 23 2012 23:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:13 Catatonic wrote:
On June 23 2012 21:51 Dodgin wrote:
On June 23 2012 21:38 Gesarjack wrote: [quote]
That's not at all what he said. He just noticed that apart from Polt and Inori all the good players on TSL are zergs, so it would make sense that they send out zergs and get zerg wins. Does that sound illogical to you?
Here are some nice other facts: NSH got 5 terran wins last week. The Code S breakdown was basically third-third-third, with zerg qualifying the least amount, and each race getting about half of their players to next round.
I'm sorry that you suck at TvZ right now but don't try to pin it on balance.
Yup let's just not mention every other tournament not named GSL/GSTL
Please do enlighten us on what other tournaments you are thinking of? I can only think of one so either you're delusional, seeing something no one else is seeing, or just extreamly bias I'm thinking two of these are correct though maybe you're right though just not seeing how that's possible lol.
Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Terran finally dropped under 50% in a matchup for once?
BLASPHEMY!
Okay, so the " terran was good before so it's fine that they they had under 35% TvZ in two separate tournaments on the same weekend argument, convincing stuff!
I thought we wanted the game to be balanced instead of playing " which race is better this month? "
The game is heading toward balance. Now that terran can't "herp derp" mass hellions into a drone line and kill everything and the player actually has to have some THOUGHT or SKILL many terran players are suffering. Its not really balance's fault that something got nerfed yet terran players DON'T REACT AT ALL. Terran players have had to do so much less for so long to get the same amount of wins (backd up by early terran dominance ect ect) that now that their race is being more skill based and less "did my hellions run in" they have no idea what the hell to do. Terrans need to start exploring other options, for example mech. Why any terrans are still going bio in TvZ is astonishing as zerg has no good answer for a late game maxed mech push into sky terran/mech. But no, its much easier to still reactor hellion expand into bio or 1 rax expand into bio because thats exactly what's been happening since people actually started expanding
1. Mech is terrible if your opponent scouts you and reacts properly, by maxing on roaches and getting drops, picking you apart before you have a big enough army.
2. jesus christ I wonder what you were saying before the Snipe nerf about TvZ if that's how you think it worked.
Terrans are in a tough spot for sure but I think it would be shortsighted to say the other races haven't been going through something similar. For once the Ironclad Korean Terran Pros aren't showing that they are winning everything. Some are still able to play well and out play their opponents so they continue to head forward.
At least you can watch Terrans play, I remember a few seasons of GSL where I had maybe four or five protoss series to look forward to in a season.
I'm absolutely not saying there have not been problems in the past that the other races ( I play Protoss for the record, sad zealot days yada yada ) have had to deal with, but I don't believe in this cycle of buffing and nerfing to extremes, we should be able to find a healthy game balance where the winrates should be 55%-45% in either races favor at most tournaments depending on player skill.
Personally right now I think TvP and ZvP are balanced, while ZvP doesn't have the most fun gameplay with the mothership vs bl/infestor wars and lots of 2 base all-ins I don't see any glaring imbalances in the game, I just can't say that for TvZ and I say this without bias as a spectator and not a person who plays either race.
TvZ before the patch was fine, Terrans had an advantage ( in most cases ) in the early and midgame while Zerg had an advantage in the late-game, this is blizzards apparent design philosophy for Starcraft 2 where they want certain races to feel stronger and certain points in the game currently I don't feel Terran has an advantage at any point during the game in TvZ and that's a big problem.
While I don't think It's impossible that Terran can find a solution without the need for a patch it seems rather unlikely, the game is two years old and mostly figured out at this point. I don't know how many new openers can be invented.
As a fellow protoss player, I'm not really sure how you can say PvT is balanced. I don't think I lose PvTs once I solidify my 3base tech with colossi and templar, and that seems to be a trend that goes all the way up to the highest level. It's not unwinnable, but I think it's an exceptionally hard sell to claim that protoss doesn't have it easy. I don't like discussing balance particularly, and I'm coming out arguing my race has it easier, but PvT becomes much easier the further into the game you get.
As to the topic, I don't think I'm going to watch GSTL anymore, barring some of the more intense individual matches. I really, really abhor ZvZ. It's a volatile matchup in the early game, and exceptionally dull and an uneventful in the midgame. Lategame ZvZ is fairly interesting and fun to watch, but other than that recent ZvZ on metropolis (I think it was Nestea vs Symbol?) I haven't seen one interesting one.
Not to mention TvZ is an absolute joke to watch now, and I've never felt PvZ is a particularly engaging matchup to watch (especially now with the prevalence of the immortal/sentry all in). It feels like were back in the early days of release where every player had to all in zergs because they feared they couldn't match their late game potential.
I wish they hadn't buffed the queen as much as they did. I can't help but feel like that change, while great for zerg players, was pretty horrible for the game as a spectator esport given what's transpired to date with the matchups. Normally I'm a big proponent of "wait a few months to see how the meta evolves" but I really don't see much hope for TvZ. Terran always had it hard in the late game until heavy ghost amounts came out. Then that was nerfed. Now with the queen buffs it's really demoralizing watching the terrans I looked up to getting shit on by what seems like most often bland and uninspired zerg play.
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote: Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Considering you're including a tournament in which Puma 4-1'ed his group and Marineking went 5-0 in a group that included Symbol, then beat Stephano on his way to finish 3rd, yeah, we're going to make you go through TLPD.
Also, that's 3 tournaments. Congrats on using a WAY BIGGER SAMPLE than me.
If you're going to use data to prove a point you can't ignore other tournaments, if you don't want to argue using statistics then I can tell you to simply open your eyes.
On June 23 2012 23:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:13 Catatonic wrote:
On June 23 2012 21:51 Dodgin wrote: [quote]
Yup let's just not mention every other tournament not named GSL/GSTL
Please do enlighten us on what other tournaments you are thinking of? I can only think of one so either you're delusional, seeing something no one else is seeing, or just extreamly bias I'm thinking two of these are correct though maybe you're right though just not seeing how that's possible lol.
Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Terran finally dropped under 50% in a matchup for once?
BLASPHEMY!
Okay, so the " terran was good before so it's fine that they they had under 35% TvZ in two separate tournaments on the same weekend argument, convincing stuff!
I thought we wanted the game to be balanced instead of playing " which race is better this month? "
The game is heading toward balance. Now that terran can't "herp derp" mass hellions into a drone line and kill everything and the player actually has to have some THOUGHT or SKILL many terran players are suffering. Its not really balance's fault that something got nerfed yet terran players DON'T REACT AT ALL. Terran players have had to do so much less for so long to get the same amount of wins (backd up by early terran dominance ect ect) that now that their race is being more skill based and less "did my hellions run in" they have no idea what the hell to do. Terrans need to start exploring other options, for example mech. Why any terrans are still going bio in TvZ is astonishing as zerg has no good answer for a late game maxed mech push into sky terran/mech. But no, its much easier to still reactor hellion expand into bio or 1 rax expand into bio because thats exactly what's been happening since people actually started expanding
1. Mech is terrible if your opponent scouts you and reacts properly, by maxing on roaches and getting drops, picking you apart before you have a big enough army.
2. jesus christ I wonder what you were saying before the Snipe nerf about TvZ if that's how you think it worked.
Terrans are in a tough spot for sure but I think it would be shortsighted to say the other races haven't been going through something similar. For once the Ironclad Korean Terran Pros aren't showing that they are winning everything. Some are still able to play well and out play their opponents so they continue to head forward.
At least you can watch Terrans play, I remember a few seasons of GSL where I had maybe four or five protoss series to look forward to in a season.
I'm absolutely not saying there have not been problems in the past that the other races ( I play Protoss for the record, sad zealot days yada yada ) have had to deal with, but I don't believe in this cycle of buffing and nerfing to extremes, we should be able to find a healthy game balance where the winrates should be 55%-45% in either races favor at most tournaments depending on player skill.
Personally right now I think TvP and ZvP are balanced, while ZvP doesn't have the most fun gameplay with the mothership vs bl/infestor wars and lots of 2 base all-ins I don't see any glaring imbalances in the game, I just can't say that for TvZ and I say this without bias as a spectator and not a person who plays either race.
TvZ before the patch was fine, Terrans had an advantage ( in most cases ) in the early and midgame while Zerg had an advantage in the late-game, this is blizzards apparent design philosophy for Starcraft 2 where they want certain races to feel stronger and certain points in the game currently I don't feel Terran has an advantage at any point during the game in TvZ and that's a big problem.
While I don't think It's impossible that Terran can find a solution without the need for a patch it seems rather unlikely, the game is two years old and mostly figured out at this point. I don't know how many new openers can be invented.
As a fellow protoss player, I'm not really sure how you can say PvT is balanced. I don't think I lose PvTs once I solidify my 3base tech with colossi and templar, and that seems to be a trend that goes all the way up to the highest level. It's not unwinnable, but I think it's an exceptionally hard sell to claim that protoss doesn't have it easy. I don't like discussing balance particularly, and I'm coming out arguing my race has it easier, but PvT becomes much easier the further into the game you get.
As to the topic, I don't think I'm going to watch GSTL anymore, barring some of the more intense individual matches. I really, really abhor ZvZ. It's a volatile matchup in the early game, and exceptionally dull and an uneventful in the midgame. Lategame ZvZ is fairly interesting and fun to watch, but other than that recent ZvZ on metropolis (I think it was Nestea vs Symbol?) I haven't seen one interesting one.
Not to mention TvZ is an absolute joke to watch now, and I've never felt PvZ is a particularly engaging matchup to watch (especially now with the prevalence of the immortal/sentry all in). It feels like were back in the early days of release where every player had to all in zergs because they feared they couldn't match their late game potential.
I wish they hadn't buffed the queen as much as they did. I can't help but feel like that change, while great for zerg players, was pretty horrible for the game as a spectator esport given what's transpired to date with the matchups. Normally I'm a big proponent of "wait a few months to see how the meta evolves" but I really don't see much hope for TvZ. Terran always had it hard in the late game until heavy ghost amounts came out. Then that was nerfed. Now with the queen buffs it's really demoralizing watching the terrans I looked up to getting shit on by what seems like most often bland and uninspired zerg play.
My two cents.
I think TvP is balanced overall, but Protoss has the advantage in the late-game and Terran has the advantage in the midgame, not perfectly balanced but " good enough " that it's acceptable.
Of course you also have Protoss early/midgame all-ins that make it seem like Terran is not favored in the midgame but the stim/shield medivac timing window is quite strong, if you can do enough damage to give yourself a lead you can reach the lategame ahead in bases, production, upgrades, tech. Making it not as bad as it would be if Protoss was able to get to his perfect composition unhindered.
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote: Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Considering you're including a tournament in which Puma 4-1'ed his group and Marineking went 5-0 in a group that included Symbol, then beat Stephano on his way to finish 3rd, yeah, we're going to make you go through TLPD.
Also, that's 3 tournaments. Congrats on using a WAY BIGGER SAMPLE than me.
If you're going to use data to prove a point you can't ignore other tournaments, if you don't want to argue using statistics then I can tell you to simply open your eyes.
On June 23 2012 23:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:13 Catatonic wrote:
On June 23 2012 21:51 Dodgin wrote:
On June 23 2012 21:38 Gesarjack wrote:
On June 23 2012 20:06 SiroKO wrote: I like this form of circular non-sensical reasoning.
You define the best players as the ones who win the most. Since Zerg is currently the best race, Zergs are winning the most. As they're winning the most, they're the best players, so they're not winning because of balance issues.
That's not at all what he said. He just noticed that apart from Polt and Inori all the good players on TSL are zergs, so it would make sense that they send out zergs and get zerg wins. Does that sound illogical to you?
Here are some nice other facts: NSH got 5 terran wins last week. The Code S breakdown was basically third-third-third, with zerg qualifying the least amount, and each race getting about half of their players to next round.
I'm sorry that you suck at TvZ right now but don't try to pin it on balance.
Yup let's just not mention every other tournament not named GSL/GSTL
Please do enlighten us on what other tournaments you are thinking of? I can only think of one so either you're delusional, seeing something no one else is seeing, or just extreamly bias I'm thinking two of these are correct though maybe you're right though just not seeing how that's possible lol.
Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Terran finally dropped under 50% in a matchup for once?
BLASPHEMY!
Okay, so the " terran was good before so it's fine that they they had under 35% TvZ in two separate tournaments on the same weekend argument, convincing stuff!
I thought we wanted the game to be balanced instead of playing " which race is better this month? "
The game is heading toward balance. Now that terran can't "herp derp" mass hellions into a drone line and kill everything and the player actually has to have some THOUGHT or SKILL many terran players are suffering. Its not really balance's fault that something got nerfed yet terran players DON'T REACT AT ALL. Terran players have had to do so much less for so long to get the same amount of wins (backd up by early terran dominance ect ect) that now that their race is being more skill based and less "did my hellions run in" they have no idea what the hell to do. Terrans need to start exploring other options, for example mech. Why any terrans are still going bio in TvZ is astonishing as zerg has no good answer for a late game maxed mech push into sky terran/mech. But no, its much easier to still reactor hellion expand into bio or 1 rax expand into bio because thats exactly what's been happening since people actually started expanding
This post shows that I really don't think you grasp the concept of TvZ. No one was suiciding their hellions into someones base to kill workers unless they were bad, or there was a clear and open shot for it if the queens were out of position.. Do you even KNOW how important those initial 4-6 hellions are? They forced units and defense, along with controlling creep, they were just some "I win early" unit.
Also, Terrans have tried hellion/bio timing attacks......which mostly get cleaned up by queens and lings while they have a fully saturated 3 bases. Hellion into banshee? That is likely to get scouted and zergs have figured out the timings for that. Naked marine pushes? Queens and lings kill it. Hellions? Yeah everyone knows the situation with that. It isn't that terrans aren't trying.....its just that queens + speedlings really do stop a lot of early pushes.
Also, you say that people need to go mech when it is A) Ridiculously subject to dying from roaches and more hilariously B) The only way you can put on any pressure is from reactored hellions.
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote: Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Considering you're including a tournament in which Puma 4-1'ed his group and Marineking went 5-0 in a group that included Symbol, then beat Stephano on his way to finish 3rd, yeah, we're going to make you go through TLPD.
Also, that's 3 tournaments. Congrats on using a WAY BIGGER SAMPLE than me.
If you're going to use data to prove a point you can't ignore other tournaments, if you don't want to argue using statistics then I can tell you to simply open your eyes.
On June 23 2012 23:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:13 Catatonic wrote: [quote] Please do enlighten us on what other tournaments you are thinking of? I can only think of one so either you're delusional, seeing something no one else is seeing, or just extreamly bias I'm thinking two of these are correct though maybe you're right though just not seeing how that's possible lol.
Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Terran finally dropped under 50% in a matchup for once?
BLASPHEMY!
Okay, so the " terran was good before so it's fine that they they had under 35% TvZ in two separate tournaments on the same weekend argument, convincing stuff!
I thought we wanted the game to be balanced instead of playing " which race is better this month? "
The game is heading toward balance. Now that terran can't "herp derp" mass hellions into a drone line and kill everything and the player actually has to have some THOUGHT or SKILL many terran players are suffering. Its not really balance's fault that something got nerfed yet terran players DON'T REACT AT ALL. Terran players have had to do so much less for so long to get the same amount of wins (backd up by early terran dominance ect ect) that now that their race is being more skill based and less "did my hellions run in" they have no idea what the hell to do. Terrans need to start exploring other options, for example mech. Why any terrans are still going bio in TvZ is astonishing as zerg has no good answer for a late game maxed mech push into sky terran/mech. But no, its much easier to still reactor hellion expand into bio or 1 rax expand into bio because thats exactly what's been happening since people actually started expanding
1. Mech is terrible if your opponent scouts you and reacts properly, by maxing on roaches and getting drops, picking you apart before you have a big enough army.
2. jesus christ I wonder what you were saying before the Snipe nerf about TvZ if that's how you think it worked.
Terrans are in a tough spot for sure but I think it would be shortsighted to say the other races haven't been going through something similar. For once the Ironclad Korean Terran Pros aren't showing that they are winning everything. Some are still able to play well and out play their opponents so they continue to head forward.
At least you can watch Terrans play, I remember a few seasons of GSL where I had maybe four or five protoss series to look forward to in a season.
I'm absolutely not saying there have not been problems in the past that the other races ( I play Protoss for the record, sad zealot days yada yada ) have had to deal with, but I don't believe in this cycle of buffing and nerfing to extremes, we should be able to find a healthy game balance where the winrates should be 55%-45% in either races favor at most tournaments depending on player skill.
Personally right now I think TvP and ZvP are balanced, while ZvP doesn't have the most fun gameplay with the mothership vs bl/infestor wars and lots of 2 base all-ins I don't see any glaring imbalances in the game, I just can't say that for TvZ and I say this without bias as a spectator and not a person who plays either race.
TvZ before the patch was fine, Terrans had an advantage ( in most cases ) in the early and midgame while Zerg had an advantage in the late-game, this is blizzards apparent design philosophy for Starcraft 2 where they want certain races to feel stronger and certain points in the game currently I don't feel Terran has an advantage at any point during the game in TvZ and that's a big problem.
While I don't think It's impossible that Terran can find a solution without the need for a patch it seems rather unlikely, the game is two years old and mostly figured out at this point. I don't know how many new openers can be invented.
As a fellow protoss player, I'm not really sure how you can say PvT is balanced. I don't think I lose PvTs once I solidify my 3base tech with colossi and templar, and that seems to be a trend that goes all the way up to the highest level. It's not unwinnable, but I think it's an exceptionally hard sell to claim that protoss doesn't have it easy. I don't like discussing balance particularly, and I'm coming out arguing my race has it easier, but PvT becomes much easier the further into the game you get.
As to the topic, I don't think I'm going to watch GSTL anymore, barring some of the more intense individual matches. I really, really abhor ZvZ. It's a volatile matchup in the early game, and exceptionally dull and an uneventful in the midgame. Lategame ZvZ is fairly interesting and fun to watch, but other than that recent ZvZ on metropolis (I think it was Nestea vs Symbol?) I haven't seen one interesting one.
Not to mention TvZ is an absolute joke to watch now, and I've never felt PvZ is a particularly engaging matchup to watch (especially now with the prevalence of the immortal/sentry all in). It feels like were back in the early days of release where every player had to all in zergs because they feared they couldn't match their late game potential.
I wish they hadn't buffed the queen as much as they did. I can't help but feel like that change, while great for zerg players, was pretty horrible for the game as a spectator esport given what's transpired to date with the matchups. Normally I'm a big proponent of "wait a few months to see how the meta evolves" but I really don't see much hope for TvZ. Terran always had it hard in the late game until heavy ghost amounts came out. Then that was nerfed. Now with the queen buffs it's really demoralizing watching the terrans I looked up to getting shit on by what seems like most often bland and uninspired zerg play.
My two cents.
I think TvP is balanced overall, but Protoss has the advantage in the late-game and Terran has the advantage in the midgame, not perfectly balanced but " good enough " that it's acceptable.
Of course you also have Protoss early/midgame all-ins that make it seem like Terran is not favored in the midgame but the stim/shield medivac timing window is quite strong, if you can do enough damage to give yourself a lead you can reach the lategame ahead in bases, production, upgrades, tech. Making it not as bad as it would be if Protoss was able to get to his perfect composition unhindered.
Yeah I think Terran just needs to make more ghosts. Whenever I play vs ghost heavy I get demolished in engagement after engagement but I do some serious damage back and it comes down to a war of attrition.
In the end, I feel like for TvP, they should really make the ghost cost 150/150 again. Terran is always floating a lot more gas than they are minerals and saving the 50 mins would be very good for them. Initially 200/100 was a buff since they could do tank and stuff with the ghosts, but Terrans don't do it so it makes it hard for them to afford bio-ghost play due to the mineral cost of the Ghost.
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote: Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Considering you're including a tournament in which Puma 4-1'ed his group and Marineking went 5-0 in a group that included Symbol, then beat Stephano on his way to finish 3rd, yeah, we're going to make you go through TLPD.
Also, that's 3 tournaments. Congrats on using a WAY BIGGER SAMPLE than me.
If you're going to use data to prove a point you can't ignore other tournaments, if you don't want to argue using statistics then I can tell you to simply open your eyes.
On June 23 2012 23:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote: [quote]
Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Terran finally dropped under 50% in a matchup for once?
BLASPHEMY!
Okay, so the " terran was good before so it's fine that they they had under 35% TvZ in two separate tournaments on the same weekend argument, convincing stuff!
I thought we wanted the game to be balanced instead of playing " which race is better this month? "
The game is heading toward balance. Now that terran can't "herp derp" mass hellions into a drone line and kill everything and the player actually has to have some THOUGHT or SKILL many terran players are suffering. Its not really balance's fault that something got nerfed yet terran players DON'T REACT AT ALL. Terran players have had to do so much less for so long to get the same amount of wins (backd up by early terran dominance ect ect) that now that their race is being more skill based and less "did my hellions run in" they have no idea what the hell to do. Terrans need to start exploring other options, for example mech. Why any terrans are still going bio in TvZ is astonishing as zerg has no good answer for a late game maxed mech push into sky terran/mech. But no, its much easier to still reactor hellion expand into bio or 1 rax expand into bio because thats exactly what's been happening since people actually started expanding
1. Mech is terrible if your opponent scouts you and reacts properly, by maxing on roaches and getting drops, picking you apart before you have a big enough army.
2. jesus christ I wonder what you were saying before the Snipe nerf about TvZ if that's how you think it worked.
Terrans are in a tough spot for sure but I think it would be shortsighted to say the other races haven't been going through something similar. For once the Ironclad Korean Terran Pros aren't showing that they are winning everything. Some are still able to play well and out play their opponents so they continue to head forward.
At least you can watch Terrans play, I remember a few seasons of GSL where I had maybe four or five protoss series to look forward to in a season.
I'm absolutely not saying there have not been problems in the past that the other races ( I play Protoss for the record, sad zealot days yada yada ) have had to deal with, but I don't believe in this cycle of buffing and nerfing to extremes, we should be able to find a healthy game balance where the winrates should be 55%-45% in either races favor at most tournaments depending on player skill.
Personally right now I think TvP and ZvP are balanced, while ZvP doesn't have the most fun gameplay with the mothership vs bl/infestor wars and lots of 2 base all-ins I don't see any glaring imbalances in the game, I just can't say that for TvZ and I say this without bias as a spectator and not a person who plays either race.
TvZ before the patch was fine, Terrans had an advantage ( in most cases ) in the early and midgame while Zerg had an advantage in the late-game, this is blizzards apparent design philosophy for Starcraft 2 where they want certain races to feel stronger and certain points in the game currently I don't feel Terran has an advantage at any point during the game in TvZ and that's a big problem.
While I don't think It's impossible that Terran can find a solution without the need for a patch it seems rather unlikely, the game is two years old and mostly figured out at this point. I don't know how many new openers can be invented.
As a fellow protoss player, I'm not really sure how you can say PvT is balanced. I don't think I lose PvTs once I solidify my 3base tech with colossi and templar, and that seems to be a trend that goes all the way up to the highest level. It's not unwinnable, but I think it's an exceptionally hard sell to claim that protoss doesn't have it easy. I don't like discussing balance particularly, and I'm coming out arguing my race has it easier, but PvT becomes much easier the further into the game you get.
As to the topic, I don't think I'm going to watch GSTL anymore, barring some of the more intense individual matches. I really, really abhor ZvZ. It's a volatile matchup in the early game, and exceptionally dull and an uneventful in the midgame. Lategame ZvZ is fairly interesting and fun to watch, but other than that recent ZvZ on metropolis (I think it was Nestea vs Symbol?) I haven't seen one interesting one.
Not to mention TvZ is an absolute joke to watch now, and I've never felt PvZ is a particularly engaging matchup to watch (especially now with the prevalence of the immortal/sentry all in). It feels like were back in the early days of release where every player had to all in zergs because they feared they couldn't match their late game potential.
I wish they hadn't buffed the queen as much as they did. I can't help but feel like that change, while great for zerg players, was pretty horrible for the game as a spectator esport given what's transpired to date with the matchups. Normally I'm a big proponent of "wait a few months to see how the meta evolves" but I really don't see much hope for TvZ. Terran always had it hard in the late game until heavy ghost amounts came out. Then that was nerfed. Now with the queen buffs it's really demoralizing watching the terrans I looked up to getting shit on by what seems like most often bland and uninspired zerg play.
My two cents.
I think TvP is balanced overall, but Protoss has the advantage in the late-game and Terran has the advantage in the midgame, not perfectly balanced but " good enough " that it's acceptable.
Of course you also have Protoss early/midgame all-ins that make it seem like Terran is not favored in the midgame but the stim/shield medivac timing window is quite strong, if you can do enough damage to give yourself a lead you can reach the lategame ahead in bases, production, upgrades, tech. Making it not as bad as it would be if Protoss was able to get to his perfect composition unhindered.
Yeah I think Terran just needs to make more ghosts. Whenever I play vs ghost heavy I get demolished in engagement after engagement but I do some serious damage back and it comes down to a war of attrition.
In the end, I feel like for TvP, they should really make the ghost cost 150/150 again. Terran is always floating a lot more gas than they are minerals and saving the 50 mins would be very good for them. Initially 200/100 was a buff since they could do tank and stuff with the ghosts, but Terrans don't do it so it makes it hard for them to afford bio-ghost play due to the mineral cost of the Ghost.
Do you split your units effectively? I haven't seemed to have as much problem vs mass ghost, though I've usually caught them before they're able to mass up some BCs.
I agree with the proposed changed to the ghost, but I don't really think that's the problem. Their cost isn't mitigating in TvP.
I really disliked the change to snipe. Especially given how much safer zerg is in the early-midgame in ZvT now, I don't think the 50 dmg snipe would've been as much of a problem. Or to return the EMP radius to 2. It might give PvT some problems again, but I'm willing to lose PvT ladder more often if it means TvZ is fun to watch again (though I may be the minority on that one). If the EMP radius was 2 it might be worthwhile trying to EMP infestors, since they almost always clumped together- yet are currently bulky enough to still not all be hit by even a perfect EMP. And, at present, unless youre mitigating nearly every infestor the ghost just isn't worth the investment- and maybe with a returned 2 radius on EMP it might be? I really don't know, that's some glorified theorycraft right there.
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote: Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Considering you're including a tournament in which Puma 4-1'ed his group and Marineking went 5-0 in a group that included Symbol, then beat Stephano on his way to finish 3rd, yeah, we're going to make you go through TLPD.
Also, that's 3 tournaments. Congrats on using a WAY BIGGER SAMPLE than me.
If you're going to use data to prove a point you can't ignore other tournaments, if you don't want to argue using statistics then I can tell you to simply open your eyes.
On June 23 2012 23:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:13 Catatonic wrote:
On June 23 2012 21:51 Dodgin wrote:
On June 23 2012 21:38 Gesarjack wrote:
On June 23 2012 20:06 SiroKO wrote: I like this form of circular non-sensical reasoning.
You define the best players as the ones who win the most. Since Zerg is currently the best race, Zergs are winning the most. As they're winning the most, they're the best players, so they're not winning because of balance issues.
That's not at all what he said. He just noticed that apart from Polt and Inori all the good players on TSL are zergs, so it would make sense that they send out zergs and get zerg wins. Does that sound illogical to you?
Here are some nice other facts: NSH got 5 terran wins last week. The Code S breakdown was basically third-third-third, with zerg qualifying the least amount, and each race getting about half of their players to next round.
I'm sorry that you suck at TvZ right now but don't try to pin it on balance.
Yup let's just not mention every other tournament not named GSL/GSTL
Please do enlighten us on what other tournaments you are thinking of? I can only think of one so either you're delusional, seeing something no one else is seeing, or just extreamly bias I'm thinking two of these are correct though maybe you're right though just not seeing how that's possible lol.
Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Terran finally dropped under 50% in a matchup for once?
BLASPHEMY!
Okay, so the " terran was good before so it's fine that they they had under 35% TvZ in two separate tournaments on the same weekend argument, convincing stuff!
I thought we wanted the game to be balanced instead of playing " which race is better this month? "
The game is heading toward balance. Now that terran can't "herp derp" mass hellions into a drone line and kill everything and the player actually has to have some THOUGHT or SKILL many terran players are suffering. Its not really balance's fault that something got nerfed yet terran players DON'T REACT AT ALL. Terran players have had to do so much less for so long to get the same amount of wins (backd up by early terran dominance ect ect) that now that their race is being more skill based and less "did my hellions run in" they have no idea what the hell to do. Terrans need to start exploring other options, for example mech. Why any terrans are still going bio in TvZ is astonishing as zerg has no good answer for a late game maxed mech push into sky terran/mech. But no, its much easier to still reactor hellion expand into bio or 1 rax expand into bio because thats exactly what's been happening since people actually started expanding
Normally I don't respond to posts concerning the status of games because I normally see everything from both sides of perspectives. But I'm sorry, your post just pissed the fuck out of me and I'm going to have to respond.
From what you're saying, I don't even think you've ever even played Terran. Do u HONESTLY think we "herp derp" mass hellions in to a drone line and then win the game? Did you SERIOUSLY just say we play with no "THOUGHTS or SKILLS?" Because if that's how TvZ was won then you should switch to Terran right now. Also, do u HONESTLY think people aren't trying to figure out alternative solutions? No one is going to be able to say "oh wow, this doesn't work anymore. Let me tinker around a bit and come up with an entirely new revolutionist strategy." It's going to take HOURS AND HOURS of finding out the most optimal builds and optimal units for each situation. Then they have to consider "How can this be countered? How can I prevent my opponent from scouting? Is there a better option? Will this put me ahead? Is this basically an all in? If this fails, am I just completely dead?"
So many things go into making new strategies and adapting to the situation. If you've noticed, players ARE trying new things right now. A post like yours went and insulted everyone who plays Terran and you made it sound like you Zergs had things the most tough. Every race is heavily micro/macro dependent. One race is not easier than the other. Why don't I just go and say the same thing then? "Zergs should stop complaining and figure out ways to deal with the hellions. Instead of having Blizzard do it for them, they should have been creative."
See how much of an ass I sound like right now? Please think carefully about what you post man. And don't ever use the phrase "herp derp". It's stupid and insulting.
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote: Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Considering you're including a tournament in which Puma 4-1'ed his group and Marineking went 5-0 in a group that included Symbol, then beat Stephano on his way to finish 3rd, yeah, we're going to make you go through TLPD.
Also, that's 3 tournaments. Congrats on using a WAY BIGGER SAMPLE than me.
If you're going to use data to prove a point you can't ignore other tournaments, if you don't want to argue using statistics then I can tell you to simply open your eyes.
On June 23 2012 23:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:14 Dodgin wrote:
On June 23 2012 22:13 Catatonic wrote:
On June 23 2012 21:51 Dodgin wrote: [quote]
Yup let's just not mention every other tournament not named GSL/GSTL
Please do enlighten us on what other tournaments you are thinking of? I can only think of one so either you're delusional, seeing something no one else is seeing, or just extreamly bias I'm thinking two of these are correct though maybe you're right though just not seeing how that's possible lol.
Are you really going to make me go through TLPD for you to show the low TvZ winrates? I'm sure you can find it yourself, look at Dreamhack Summer, GESL, and MLG Anaheim.
Terran finally dropped under 50% in a matchup for once?
BLASPHEMY!
Okay, so the " terran was good before so it's fine that they they had under 35% TvZ in two separate tournaments on the same weekend argument, convincing stuff!
I thought we wanted the game to be balanced instead of playing " which race is better this month? "
The game is heading toward balance. Now that terran can't "herp derp" mass hellions into a drone line and kill everything and the player actually has to have some THOUGHT or SKILL many terran players are suffering. Its not really balance's fault that something got nerfed yet terran players DON'T REACT AT ALL. Terran players have had to do so much less for so long to get the same amount of wins (backd up by early terran dominance ect ect) that now that their race is being more skill based and less "did my hellions run in" they have no idea what the hell to do. Terrans need to start exploring other options, for example mech. Why any terrans are still going bio in TvZ is astonishing as zerg has no good answer for a late game maxed mech push into sky terran/mech. But no, its much easier to still reactor hellion expand into bio or 1 rax expand into bio because thats exactly what's been happening since people actually started expanding
1. Mech is terrible if your opponent scouts you and reacts properly, by maxing on roaches and getting drops, picking you apart before you have a big enough army.
2. jesus christ I wonder what you were saying before the Snipe nerf about TvZ if that's how you think it worked.
Terrans are in a tough spot for sure but I think it would be shortsighted to say the other races haven't been going through something similar. For once the Ironclad Korean Terran Pros aren't showing that they are winning everything. Some are still able to play well and out play their opponents so they continue to head forward.
At least you can watch Terrans play, I remember a few seasons of GSL where I had maybe four or five protoss series to look forward to in a season.
I'm absolutely not saying there have not been problems in the past that the other races ( I play Protoss for the record, sad zealot days yada yada ) have had to deal with, but I don't believe in this cycle of buffing and nerfing to extremes, we should be able to find a healthy game balance where the winrates should be 55%-45% in either races favor at most tournaments depending on player skill.
Personally right now I think TvP and ZvP are balanced, while ZvP doesn't have the most fun gameplay with the mothership vs bl/infestor wars and lots of 2 base all-ins I don't see any glaring imbalances in the game, I just can't say that for TvZ and I say this without bias as a spectator and not a person who plays either race.
TvZ before the patch was fine, Terrans had an advantage ( in most cases ) in the early and midgame while Zerg had an advantage in the late-game, this is blizzards apparent design philosophy for Starcraft 2 where they want certain races to feel stronger and certain points in the game currently I don't feel Terran has an advantage at any point during the game in TvZ and that's a big problem.
While I don't think It's impossible that Terran can find a solution without the need for a patch it seems rather unlikely, the game is two years old and mostly figured out at this point. I don't know how many new openers can be invented.
As a fellow protoss player, I'm not really sure how you can say PvT is balanced. I don't think I lose PvTs once I solidify my 3base tech with colossi and templar, and that seems to be a trend that goes all the way up to the highest level. It's not unwinnable, but I think it's an exceptionally hard sell to claim that protoss doesn't have it easy. I don't like discussing balance particularly, and I'm coming out arguing my race has it easier, but PvT becomes much easier the further into the game you get.
As to the topic, I don't think I'm going to watch GSTL anymore, barring some of the more intense individual matches. I really, really abhor ZvZ. It's a volatile matchup in the early game, and exceptionally dull and an uneventful in the midgame. Lategame ZvZ is fairly interesting and fun to watch, but other than that recent ZvZ on metropolis (I think it was Nestea vs Symbol?) I haven't seen one interesting one.
Not to mention TvZ is an absolute joke to watch now, and I've never felt PvZ is a particularly engaging matchup to watch (especially now with the prevalence of the immortal/sentry all in). It feels like were back in the early days of release where every player had to all in zergs because they feared they couldn't match their late game potential.
I wish they hadn't buffed the queen as much as they did. I can't help but feel like that change, while great for zerg players, was pretty horrible for the game as a spectator esport given what's transpired to date with the matchups. Normally I'm a big proponent of "wait a few months to see how the meta evolves" but I really don't see much hope for TvZ. Terran always had it hard in the late game until heavy ghost amounts came out. Then that was nerfed. Now with the queen buffs it's really demoralizing watching the terrans I looked up to getting shit on by what seems like most often bland and uninspired zerg play.
My two cents.
Yep I agree. TvP is not balance, sure, but at least there're solutions at any stages of the game. Overall in TvP, Terran pro seems to feel that as long as they do everything right, they still have a chance to win the game. On the other hand, it seems like most Terran and Zerg pro agree that as long as Zerg don't make major mistake, it doesn't matter what Terran do, they will still win.
Personally I think the problem is not about the fast third (of course it's a problem, but not major one), but about the game information that they can obtain easily. This is a game about limited information, basically you need to play the guessing game, but with the patch, creep and ovie speed give Zerg too much information easily. With creep spread + ovie + educated guess + map size, a zerg can basically cut corners and do everything he want. We still see from time to time that some Zerg didn't manage to read Terran, and he paid a good price for it.
I personally think Blizzard should rethink about creepspread, I don't think they foresee how amzaingthe creepspread mechanic effects at pro level.
I think a better way is to work on the creepspread speed. Right now it's so easy to put down creep tumor, and there're so many in the map, and the creep spread is too fast.
Right now, a creep tumor can fill a 10-unit radius area in creep in ~86second, 2 creep tumor fill it in 43sec, 3 tumor in 29sec, and 4 creep tumors in the same area will fill 10-unit radius area in creep in ~22sec and so on, that is less than the time to build a marine. WIth 4,5 creep tumor, the creep can spread faster than a queen walking offcreep. To let some people feel the scale of it, let's take Antiga Shipyard as an example. Antiga Shipyard is a 136x136 map, the distance between 2 cross-spawn bases is ~115 units by air, and between 2 cross-spawned natural by walk is ~150 units. So ideally, you can spread creep from natural to natural in 5 minutes with 4 creep tumors. From another point of view, a scan will cost 50 energy and orbital can regenerate in 89 second. a scan radius is only 13, but in 80second, creep tumor can generate a great amount of creep (40 unit radius) that one or two scans won't simply be enough.
Of course there're all kind of events that will happen in a match, but just imagine the grand scale of it. The buff was just one month old and we already how top Zerg demonstrate their creepspread. Yes, Terran can try to adapt to it, like mass mass orbital or super early raven and such, but we need to remember that while Terran players increase their skills to deal with creep, Zerg players will also increase their skills to spread creep, DRG's creep spread will be the norm. It's so much easier to spread creep and there're such huge benefit from it to be ignored.
Read all the points in the above discussion. Some very valid points which all make sense. I think that Blizzard as well as the players should just wait another couple of months and let the dust settle and people figure out solutions. I do feel Zerg MAY be winning more games that normal and that Terran MAY have a more difficult time in the late game against Protoss, but I want to see what creative ways people think of to deal with these problems before A: Blizzard patches something or B: People demand patches
I'm just disappointed as a spectator because TvZ is no longer fun to watch. It used to be, in my opinion, the most enjoyable viewer matchup because it was constantly back and forth. If both people played perfectly, they were even. Nowadays it seems like if Zerg plays perfectly, there's not much Terran can do. Having that kind of predictability makes it boring. There's no excitement. There's no "will he pull through?" because the commentators and I all know that the Terran won't be able to. That's why it's not so fun to watch anymore.
Considering you're including a tournament in which Puma 4-1'ed his group and Marineking went 5-0 in a group that included Symbol, then beat Stephano on his way to finish 3rd, yeah, we're going to make you go through TLPD.
Also, that's 3 tournaments. Congrats on using a WAY BIGGER SAMPLE than me.
If you're going to use data to prove a point you can't ignore other tournaments, if you don't want to argue using statistics then I can tell you to simply open your eyes.
On June 23 2012 23:13 VirgilSC2 wrote: [quote] Terran finally dropped under 50% in a matchup for once?
BLASPHEMY!
Okay, so the " terran was good before so it's fine that they they had under 35% TvZ in two separate tournaments on the same weekend argument, convincing stuff!
I thought we wanted the game to be balanced instead of playing " which race is better this month? "
The game is heading toward balance. Now that terran can't "herp derp" mass hellions into a drone line and kill everything and the player actually has to have some THOUGHT or SKILL many terran players are suffering. Its not really balance's fault that something got nerfed yet terran players DON'T REACT AT ALL. Terran players have had to do so much less for so long to get the same amount of wins (backd up by early terran dominance ect ect) that now that their race is being more skill based and less "did my hellions run in" they have no idea what the hell to do. Terrans need to start exploring other options, for example mech. Why any terrans are still going bio in TvZ is astonishing as zerg has no good answer for a late game maxed mech push into sky terran/mech. But no, its much easier to still reactor hellion expand into bio or 1 rax expand into bio because thats exactly what's been happening since people actually started expanding
1. Mech is terrible if your opponent scouts you and reacts properly, by maxing on roaches and getting drops, picking you apart before you have a big enough army.
2. jesus christ I wonder what you were saying before the Snipe nerf about TvZ if that's how you think it worked.
Terrans are in a tough spot for sure but I think it would be shortsighted to say the other races haven't been going through something similar. For once the Ironclad Korean Terran Pros aren't showing that they are winning everything. Some are still able to play well and out play their opponents so they continue to head forward.
At least you can watch Terrans play, I remember a few seasons of GSL where I had maybe four or five protoss series to look forward to in a season.
I'm absolutely not saying there have not been problems in the past that the other races ( I play Protoss for the record, sad zealot days yada yada ) have had to deal with, but I don't believe in this cycle of buffing and nerfing to extremes, we should be able to find a healthy game balance where the winrates should be 55%-45% in either races favor at most tournaments depending on player skill.
Personally right now I think TvP and ZvP are balanced, while ZvP doesn't have the most fun gameplay with the mothership vs bl/infestor wars and lots of 2 base all-ins I don't see any glaring imbalances in the game, I just can't say that for TvZ and I say this without bias as a spectator and not a person who plays either race.
TvZ before the patch was fine, Terrans had an advantage ( in most cases ) in the early and midgame while Zerg had an advantage in the late-game, this is blizzards apparent design philosophy for Starcraft 2 where they want certain races to feel stronger and certain points in the game currently I don't feel Terran has an advantage at any point during the game in TvZ and that's a big problem.
While I don't think It's impossible that Terran can find a solution without the need for a patch it seems rather unlikely, the game is two years old and mostly figured out at this point. I don't know how many new openers can be invented.
As a fellow protoss player, I'm not really sure how you can say PvT is balanced. I don't think I lose PvTs once I solidify my 3base tech with colossi and templar, and that seems to be a trend that goes all the way up to the highest level. It's not unwinnable, but I think it's an exceptionally hard sell to claim that protoss doesn't have it easy. I don't like discussing balance particularly, and I'm coming out arguing my race has it easier, but PvT becomes much easier the further into the game you get.
As to the topic, I don't think I'm going to watch GSTL anymore, barring some of the more intense individual matches. I really, really abhor ZvZ. It's a volatile matchup in the early game, and exceptionally dull and an uneventful in the midgame. Lategame ZvZ is fairly interesting and fun to watch, but other than that recent ZvZ on metropolis (I think it was Nestea vs Symbol?) I haven't seen one interesting one.
Not to mention TvZ is an absolute joke to watch now, and I've never felt PvZ is a particularly engaging matchup to watch (especially now with the prevalence of the immortal/sentry all in). It feels like were back in the early days of release where every player had to all in zergs because they feared they couldn't match their late game potential.
I wish they hadn't buffed the queen as much as they did. I can't help but feel like that change, while great for zerg players, was pretty horrible for the game as a spectator esport given what's transpired to date with the matchups. Normally I'm a big proponent of "wait a few months to see how the meta evolves" but I really don't see much hope for TvZ. Terran always had it hard in the late game until heavy ghost amounts came out. Then that was nerfed. Now with the queen buffs it's really demoralizing watching the terrans I looked up to getting shit on by what seems like most often bland and uninspired zerg play.
My two cents.
I think TvP is balanced overall, but Protoss has the advantage in the late-game and Terran has the advantage in the midgame, not perfectly balanced but " good enough " that it's acceptable.
Of course you also have Protoss early/midgame all-ins that make it seem like Terran is not favored in the midgame but the stim/shield medivac timing window is quite strong, if you can do enough damage to give yourself a lead you can reach the lategame ahead in bases, production, upgrades, tech. Making it not as bad as it would be if Protoss was able to get to his perfect composition unhindered.
Yeah I think Terran just needs to make more ghosts. Whenever I play vs ghost heavy I get demolished in engagement after engagement but I do some serious damage back and it comes down to a war of attrition.
In the end, I feel like for TvP, they should really make the ghost cost 150/150 again. Terran is always floating a lot more gas than they are minerals and saving the 50 mins would be very good for them. Initially 200/100 was a buff since they could do tank and stuff with the ghosts, but Terrans don't do it so it makes it hard for them to afford bio-ghost play due to the mineral cost of the Ghost.
Do you split your units effectively? I haven't seemed to have as much problem vs mass ghost, though I've usually caught them before they're able to mass up some BCs.
I agree with the proposed changed to the ghost, but I don't really think that's the problem. Their cost isn't mitigating in TvP.
I really disliked the change to snipe. Especially given how much safer zerg is in the early-midgame in ZvT now, I don't think the 50 dmg snipe would've been as much of a problem. Or to return the EMP radius to 2. It might give PvT some problems again, but I'm willing to lose PvT ladder more often if it means TvZ is fun to watch again (though I may be the minority on that one). If the EMP radius was 2 it might be worthwhile trying to EMP infestors, since they almost always clumped together- yet are currently bulky enough to still not all be hit by even a perfect EMP. And, at present, unless youre mitigating nearly every infestor the ghost just isn't worth the investment- and maybe with a returned 2 radius on EMP it might be? I really don't know, that's some glorified theorycraft right there.
It's so rare to see a Protoss player with a view like this... Hats off to you sir.
guys, just re-live your awesome crazy fun to watch balanced TvZ moment by watching the MMA vs DRG GSL finals game 7 over and over again. You won't be seeing something like that for a while. Blizzard won't fix TvZ overnight, they might not even attempt to fix it until HOTS.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ajhkU.png)
2012 Global StarCraft II Team League Season 2/Round 2![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WPTSX.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/byLz9.png)
HyuN <Muspelheim> ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UMdOZ.png)
Symbol
Polt
Inori![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oG5Sd.png)
Tear
Polt <Antiga Shipyard 1.2> ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VBo2O.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sGhpX.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wle3B.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GQIUY.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LhtQm.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://p.twimg.com/AwD8SE3CIAAZcxh.jpg:large)
