[GSTL] TSL vs FXO Pennant Race Group B - Page 38

On June 23 2012 23:42 ZeromuS wrote:


Terrans are in a tough spot for sure but I think it would be shortsighted to say the other races haven't been going through something similar. For once the Ironclad Korean Terran Pros aren't showing that they are winning everything. Some are still able to play well and out play their opponents so they continue to head forward.

At least you can watch Terrans play, I remember a few seasons of GSL where I had maybe four or five protoss series to look forward to in a season.

On June 23 2012 23:51 Gesarjack wrote:


I was answering about a post that showed GSTL "evidence", so I used GSL and GSTL facts. Sorry about being so narrow-minded. Although I understand how it would be annoying for you that the biggest tournament in the world which included the best "group" (as opposed to individualities) of players in the world showed balanced results.

My problem is not mainly that terran is losing or winning. My problem is that a whole bunch of people, and probably you included, are hiding behind balance to complain about terran loss. If I go back six months ago, will I find you complaining about terrans winning everything? Or would there only be posts like this one: "Just let the whiners continue to whine about balance. You won't change their opinions even with the most sound of logic." (30 oct. 2011, about a TvP)

If there are only posts like this, you're not in it for balance. You're in it for terrans. And if you personnally aren't, you can acknowledge with me that a lot of people posting these days are. I think they should just know theirself for what they are.

On June 23 2012 23:17 Dodgin wrote:
If you're going to use data to prove a point you can't ignore other tournaments, if you don't want to argue using statistics then I can tell you to simply open your eyes.

On June 23 2012 23:46 Dodgin wrote:


I'm absolutely not saying there have not been problems in the past that the other races ( I play Protoss for the record, sad zealot days yada yada ) have had to deal with, but I don't believe in this cycle of buffing and nerfing to extremes, we should be able to find a healthy game balance where the winrates should be 55%-45% in either races favor at most tournaments depending on player skill.

Personally right now I think TvP and ZvP are balanced, while ZvP doesn't have the most fun gameplay with the mothership vs bl/infestor wars and lots of 2 base all-ins I don't see any glaring imbalances in the game, I just can't say that for TvZ and I say this without bias as a spectator and not a person who plays either race.

TvZ before the patch was fine, Terrans had an advantage ( in most cases ) in the early and midgame while Zerg had an advantage in the late-game, this is blizzards apparent design philosophy for Starcraft 2 where they want certain races to feel stronger and certain points in the game currently I don't feel Terran has an advantage at any point during the game in TvZ and that's a big problem.

While I don't think It's impossible that Terran can find a solution without the need for a patch it seems rather unlikely, the game is two years old and mostly figured out at this point. I don't know how many new openers can be invented.

On June 23 2012 23:58 Durp wrote:

As a fellow protoss player, I'm not really sure how you can say PvT is balanced. I don't think I lose PvTs once I solidify my 3base tech with colossi and templar, and that seems to be a trend that goes all the way up to the highest level. It's not unwinnable, but I think it's an exceptionally hard sell to claim that protoss doesn't have it easy. I don't like discussing balance particularly, and I'm coming out arguing my race has it easier, but PvT becomes much easier the further into the game you get.

As to the topic, I don't think I'm going to watch GSTL anymore, barring some of the more intense individual matches. I really, really abhor ZvZ. It's a volatile matchup in the early game, and exceptionally dull and an uneventful in the midgame. Lategame ZvZ is fairly interesting and fun to watch, but other than that recent ZvZ on metropolis (I think it was Nestea vs Symbol?) I haven't seen one interesting one.

Not to mention TvZ is an absolute joke to watch now, and I've never felt PvZ is a particularly engaging matchup to watch (especially now with the prevalence of the immortal/sentry all in). It feels like were back in the early days of release where every player had to all in zergs because they feared they couldn't match their late game potential.

I wish they hadn't buffed the queen as much as they did. I can't help but feel like that change, while great for zerg players, was pretty horrible for the game as a spectator esport given what's transpired to date with the matchups. Normally I'm a big proponent of "wait a few months to see how the meta evolves" but I really don't see much hope for TvZ. Terran always had it hard in the late game until heavy ghost amounts came out. Then that was nerfed. Now with the queen buffs it's really demoralizing watching the terrans I looked up to getting shit on by what seems like most often bland and uninspired zerg play.

My two cents.

On June 23 2012 23:31 chipmonklord17 wrote:


The game is heading toward balance. Now that terran can't "herp derp" mass hellions into a drone line and kill everything and the player actually has to have some THOUGHT or SKILL many terran players are suffering. Its not really balance's fault that something got nerfed yet terran players DON'T REACT AT ALL. Terran players have had to do so much less for so long to get the same amount of wins (backd up by early terran dominance ect ect) that now that their race is being more skill based and less "did my hellions run in" they have no idea what the hell to do. Terrans need to start exploring other options, for example mech. Why any terrans are still going bio in TvZ is astonishing as zerg has no good answer for a late game maxed mech push into sky terran/mech. But no, its much easier to still reactor hellion expand into bio or 1 rax expand into bio because thats exactly what's been happening since people actually started expanding

On June 24 2012 00:09 ZeromuS wrote:


Yeah I think Terran just needs to make more ghosts. Whenever I play vs ghost heavy I get demolished in engagement after engagement but I do some serious damage back and it comes down to a war of attrition.

In the end, I feel like for TvP, they should really make the ghost cost 150/150 again. Terran is always floating a lot more gas than they are minerals and saving the 50 mins would be very good for them. Initially 200/100 was a buff since they could do tank and stuff with the ghosts, but Terrans don't do it so it makes it hard for them to afford bio-ghost play due to the mineral cost of the Ghost.

On June 23 2012 23:58 Durp wrote:

As a fellow protoss player, I'm not really sure how you can say PvT is balanced. I don't think I lose PvTs once I solidify my 3base tech with colossi and templar, and that seems to be a trend that goes all the way up to the highest level. It's not unwinnable, but I think it's an exceptionally hard sell to claim that protoss doesn't have it easy. I don't like discussing balance particularly, and I'm coming out arguing my race has it easier, but PvT becomes much easier the further into the game you get.

As to the topic, I don't think I'm going to watch GSTL anymore, barring some of the more intense individual matches. I really, really abhor ZvZ. It's a volatile matchup in the early game, and exceptionally dull and an uneventful in the midgame. Lategame ZvZ is fairly interesting and fun to watch, but other than that recent ZvZ on metropolis (I think it was Nestea vs Symbol?) I haven't seen one interesting one.

Not to mention TvZ is an absolute joke to watch now, and I've never felt PvZ is a particularly engaging matchup to watch (especially now with the prevalence of the immortal/sentry all in). It feels like were back in the early days of release where every player had to all in zergs because they feared they couldn't match their late game potential.

I wish they hadn't buffed the queen as much as they did. I can't help but feel like that change, while great for zerg players, was pretty horrible for the game as a spectator esport given what's transpired to date with the matchups. Normally I'm a big proponent of "wait a few months to see how the meta evolves" but I really don't see much hope for TvZ. Terran always had it hard in the late game until heavy ghost amounts came out. Then that was nerfed. Now with the queen buffs it's really demoralizing watching the terrans I looked up to getting shit on by what seems like most often bland and uninspired zerg play.

My two cents.

I think a better way is to work on the creepspread speed. Right now it's so easy to put down creep tumor, and there're so many in the map, and the creep spread is too fast.

Right now, a creep tumor can fill a 10-unit radius area in creep in ~86second, 2 creep tumor fill it in 43sec, 3 tumor in 29sec, and 4 creep tumors in the same area will fill 10-unit radius area in creep in ~22sec and so on, that is less than the time to build a marine. WIth 4,5 creep tumor, the creep can spread faster than a queen walking offcreep. To let some people feel the scale of it, let's take Antiga Shipyard as an example.
Antiga Shipyard is a 136x136 map, the distance between 2 cross-spawn bases is ~115 units by air, and between 2 cross-spawned natural by walk is ~150 units. So ideally, you can spread creep from natural to natural in 5 minutes with 4 creep tumors.
From another point of view, a scan will cost 50 energy and orbital can regenerate in 89 second. a scan radius is only 13, but in 80second, creep tumor can generate a great amount of creep (40 unit radius) that one or two scans won't simply be enough.

Of course there're all kind of events that will happen in a match, but just imagine the grand scale of it. The buff was just one month old and we already how top Zerg demonstrate their creepspread. Yes, Terran can try to adapt to it, like mass mass orbital or super early raven and such, but we need to remember that while Terran players increase their skills to deal with creep, Zerg players will also increase their skills to spread creep, DRG's creep spread will be the norm. It's so much easier to spread creep and there're such huge benefit from it to be ignored.

On June 24 2012 00:27 Durp wrote:

Do you split your units effectively? I haven't seemed to have as much problem vs mass ghost, though I've usually caught them before they're able to mass up some BCs.

I agree with the proposed changed to the ghost, but I don't really think that's the problem. Their cost isn't mitigating in TvP.

I really disliked the change to snipe. Especially given how much safer zerg is in the early-midgame in ZvT now, I don't think the 50 dmg snipe would've been as much of a problem. Or to return the EMP radius to 2. It might give PvT some problems again, but I'm willing to lose PvT ladder more often if it means TvZ is fun to watch again (though I may be the minority on that one). If the EMP radius was 2 it might be worthwhile trying to EMP infestors, since they almost always clumped together- yet are currently bulky enough to still not all be hit by even a perfect EMP. And, at present, unless youre mitigating nearly every infestor the ghost just isn't worth the investment- and maybe with a returned 2 radius on EMP it might be? I really don't know, that's some glorified theorycraft right there.